Map Sizes - why I have never made the switch from SC3000 to SC4

[SimCityHawk 194]

Hello all.

This subject is something I have thought about for a long time. I love all kind of city building games, but SC3000 has always been my favourite. Why is this? Well, other than some childish nostalgia I think map size has a lot to do with it. I have played a decent amount of SC4, but I have always been frustrated about the small map sizes. I know you can build large regions in SC4, but these regions consists of smaller independent maps that are rendered independently. This has always irritated me with SC4, since I never had the feeling that I was building something very large in one picture.

I know the map size in SC3000 isn't very large either, but I do think it is easier to build a metropolis like city in one map in this game.  

Please correct me if I'm wrong. If there is something I have missed about SC4s map sizes, I would love to hear. SC4 is such a nice game, the graphics are awesome and way more realistic than SC3000. The community and downloads has always been bigger and better for SC4, so I would love to make a switch to the game, but I never think I will unless one can build large cities in ONE map. 

Do you guys know something that I don't?

[poshbakerloo 186]

I'm not too sure on SC3000 map sizes although I do remember the largest one was very big. SC4 is 4x4 Km and they all join up to make a region which can be 100x100 + Km.

[SimCityHawk 194]

12 minutes ago, poshbakerloo said:

I'm not too sure on SC3000 map sizes although I do remember the largest one was very big. SC4 is 4x4 Km and they all join up to make a region which can be 100x100 + Km.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. 4x4 km isn't very large. And by combining different squares of 4x4 km, I do not get the feeling that I am building one large sprawling urban area (even though I know you get an pictured overview of the region in the game). It just still feels like I have 10+ independent maps that is only combined into one city in my imagination. I can't be the only one who thinks like this?

[rsc204 21,868]

Frankly if that's your one reason for sticking with SC300, if you ask me, you are really missing out. SC4 just has so much more to offer. The maps aren't going to get bigger, that's pretty much locked in the .exe and not something modders can change. Not to mention, with the right number of objects and sims, you can bring down a modern computer using a large tile in SC4. I'm not really sure how much larger a city could be and still continue to actually work.

Sure, that does mean some bigger cities might not make it into one tile. But using tools developed by the community or simply with some skill in an image editor, it's possible to make screenshots that do cover more than one tile, an entire region is possible for example using the Region Census tool.

I can't find any information easily online that gives a real world size for SC3K cities, but I've got to imagine the difference is quite negligible at best. Since you can pick up SC4 for like $5/5€ in a sale, I'd wait for one and give it a try. After all, there is a lot more that makes a game fun than simply the size of the maps. Although having played SC5, I do understand how a very limited sized map can totally mess with the game, that's not a problem I ever encountered playing SC4.

[SimCityHawk 194]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

Frankly if that's your one reason for sticking with SC300, if you ask me, you are really missing out. SC4 just has so much more to offer. The maps aren't going to get bigger, that's pretty much locked in the .exe and not something modders can change. Not to mention, with the right number of objects and sims, you can bring down a modern computer using a large tile in SC4. I'm not really sure how much larger a city could be and still continue to actually work.

Sure, that does mean some bigger cities might not make it into one tile. But using tools developed by the community or simply with some skill in an image editor, it's possible to make screenshots that do cover more than one tile, an entire region is possible for example using the Region Census tool.

I can't find any information easily online that gives a real world size for SC3K cities, but I've got to imagine the difference is quite negligible at best. Since you can pick up SC4 for like $5/5€ in a sale, I'd wait for one and give it a try. After all, there is a lot more that makes a game fun than simply the size of the maps. Although having played SC5, I do understand how a very limited sized map can totally mess with the game, that's not a problem I ever encountered playing SC4.

I understand your point. SC4 is an awesome game and it is not hard to see that it beats SC3000 on so many levels. However, I think map size is crucial. My goal is to create realistic looking cities, so they look about the same as they do on a satelite image. When I do this in SC4, I have to reopen every tile to render small 4x4 km blocks of the city. Hell, one block of 4x4 km could be a whole area only filled tract housing! Like this, I never get the full picture of my city. It never feels like one united entity. 

But maybe I should go and have a look at the game again. Maybe I have overseen the largest of the possible tiles?

SC5 was a complete disaster IMO, for these very same reasons. It felt more like a miniature Transport Tycoon-game than a real city builder. It would never be possible in that game to create something like New York City for instance.

[Fantozzi 4,069]

To have great diversity means to have a lot of different models on your Disk, to have a big city tile with great diversity on all aspects means long loading time, slow scrolling etc. Therefore the area to load into memory is limited. The more you simplify the models the bigger this area can be. Regarding this, I imagine, a city builder with all simple grey boxes and only one network etc. would be the best for the maximum size of playable area. As soon as you want more depth and more details you would have to make compromises about data management.

I personally think SC4 did the best compromise so far on this - the tiles aren't that small and the content is quite complex and detailed.

Basically you can make a whole map of SC4 into one city, it's just that the city is divided in districts - and you can name the tiles accordingly. Like a cake is divided in slices. It's just a point of view to see the slices as cities, districts or communities. To see them all under one gouvernement or with separated administrations. As water pipes and current and workers and cars and trains can cross the tiles - it is just that the cities in SC4 can be so big that only for performance reasons it is divided in 'smaller' areas.

Maybe to think - some of the biggest metropolis grew this way. They were separated small towns and grew and grew until they melted into one big area.

5 minutes ago, SimCityHawk said:

 It never feels like one united entity.

 

So anyway - we all play games for fun. If SC3000 feels good to you, there's nothing wrong about it. Question would be - why are you so doubtfull then?

 

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

3 hours ago, SimCityHawk said:

It just still feels like I have 10+ independent maps that is only combined into one city in my imagination.

There are some region-wide stats that feed the internal model (count toward cap-busting) I think. And I think the CAM mod improves on vanilla SC4. If you read about the effects of region-wide development, would that prop up your imagination?

[SimCityHawk 194]

20 minutes ago, Fantozzi said:

So anyway - we all play games for fun. If SC3000 feels good to you, there's nothing wrong about it. Question would be - why are you so doubtfull then?

 

Because I like the game of SC4. I have always liked it. The graphics are more appealing and it solves a lot of the small issues and bugs that I have encountered in SC3K over the years. And the SC4-community seems bigger with more fun stuff to do with mods and downloads. This thing about map size has just always been on my mind, and now I thought it was time to hear what others thought about it.

 

 

[MissVanleider 1,851]

If you want to create realistic looking cities, you will find that the huge number of options that sc4 offers in this regard will mean that you won't  have to worry about map size. The amount of time it would take to fill a large tile whilst making it really (i appreciate that is subjective, but there are some CJs and MDs that do really nail realism and detail) realistic and detailed would be plenty enough to feel that you have created something epic.

@rsc204 and @Fantozzi make some good points about the technical limitations and such but i think you also have to consider the inherent constraints in scale between different BATs, and even the main game - individual sims being 4M tall or whatever.

Simply, scale in any videogame is always going to be a pretty strange thing, and particularly in a game that depicts some form of recognisable reality. It isn't worth worrying about relating 4x4 sq KM in the game to a 4x4 sq KM region in real life. Like a painting  or a film, much of the game is artifice, and it's better to treat it as such.

Even more simply, if you like city builders, you should download and play SC4 if you can afford it. Then we'll all help and encourage you with whatever you try to create

 

[Fantozzi 4,069]

I must confess - this is something fascinating. How people are tricked in situations that causes stress. You may know about this debates - happening here the same as elswhere - which game is better, which political party is better, which car is better. These kind of discussion always start civilized but everybody is already prepared that people get more and more excited in defending their opinion and they get into a spiral of stress.

What I like to teach - you must only take a step outside this spiral and stress stops and you are a lucky person again.

Let me try to explain. Sometimes I play online games. Yesterday I did a game you have to kick a soccer ball into some holes. I played it for 20 minutes then I got bored. I didn't play SC4, instead I played an incredible silly game.

Was it a bad game?

No. Tell you - I had fun for 20 minutes. And trust me, on games - this is everything that counts. Some games attract you for a long time, some games attract you only for a short time.

And we tend to rate games, that attract us for a longer time to be the better ones.

But it doesn't really matter. As you don't marry the games and there is no need to decide - am I with this or am I with that?

You ty to decide as if you want get rid of the pressure. The pressure caused by the operator 'or'. Suddenly you're in between two things, you are riding on this 'or' - as someone, as it seems, made you an offer - 'this or that'. But are you shure it is generosity? Doesn't it mean: you can't get it all, butonly one - and so it's to limit your posibilites instead?  

There is simply no need for the question which game is better as you can play both. The 'or' is false as an 'and' would fit to? Do you want butter or bread? Well - I take butter and bread. On sunday morning this game will be more fun. On saturday evening that game will be more fun.

But then - why this strange loyality to absolutely death things, to feel responsible to defend it as being better than anything else - these emotions like this game was your brother? Where does this feelings come from?

Maybe on friends, maybe on the people you love you have to make the decission - whom I love most. But on computer brands? On watches and clothes? Can't I change them from day to day without feeling guilty?

So don't make this a question on games. Don't make that the question - this or that - as if it was a fundamental rule about the world. Always ask, if the one, that uses the operator 'or' doesn't fool you. Can I replace the question 'this or that' with 'this and that' or with 'neither this nor that."

Most of the 'this or that' question prevents us of finding more possibilties. It's like a trick. Do you want ice cream or chocolate? Most people will answer by taking one of them. And so they forget to ask - but isn't there more to chose? A chicken sandwich perhaps? They get tricked by this 'or'. 

So always ask this 'or'!

And there is no 'SC3000 or SC4'.  As you can play both. Same on community - the members aren't 'this or that', many members of Simtorpolis are 'multi-community people', they are members in many communities and if you would ask them, they would say, there is no limit - it's not this or that and not even a certain amount, everyone can be part of every community. What a chaos!.

Maybe you are worried to have to let go SC3000 if you play SC4. But this isn't the case. You don't cheat on SC3000 if you play SC4. You aren't married to this or that game.

The emotions involved - something very interesting. Those feelings to be loyal or to be disloyal on everything. If I'm a member of the 'golf club' I'm disloayal to the mebers of the 'tennis club'`Is it really that way?

Today you like Betty, tomorrow you like Maude. Oh, how unsteady you are! You have to be steady. Therfore you can't have a closer look on Maude. Now you kissed Betty - now you have to stay the rest of your life with Betty.

But do you have to be steady on the clothes you wear the same way?

Shure you have to be steady - on the people you love. Maybe on animals too and the plants on the window bench as they need water regulary. But on everything? On products, on things not living? On all those political parties and movements on all those scientific knowledge and opinions on all those people you don't even know? Do you need to be a fan and and a soldier of this or that and a hero to everyone who asks you to be so? A loyal defender to all the stuff there is and they bring it to you? Consider: all this stuff doesn't love you. You get nothing in return from a game if you defend this game in a discussion.

All those stone death things won't love you in return. You may love the clothes you wear. But they won't love you. Consider - this makes a difference. Like you are in love with a person and this person doesn't love you. It's the same. A situation where you are the fool. So you get fooled by all the stuff, loving it.

Don't make your loyality a bargain for everybody, who asks you to choose. Make it something very precious. Keep it for the people you love and they lov you - and tell all the others who ask you 'this or that' - and that's all you have to offer, nothing else?

That's why I insist to say: do as you like on computer games. The pressure is a fake. To make you fear of wrong decissions is part of the marketing strategy - if you don't chose this game you will miss one of the best experiences of your life. You know, in a system developing by trial and error, it's the error that gives the best experience, not the ticket.

So there is no perfect city builder. And if there was, Gods would keep mankind away and play it themselves. They would handle it the very same way as they once handled fire.

Therefore, regarding mankind, don't mess around with 'this or that' but take all you can get. And if possible, play all the games the Gods left to us.

[glazert 89]

I am a bit puzzled. The size of the map in SC3000 was 256 x 256 basic tiles. The size of a large city in SimCity 4 is 256 x256 basic tiles. (It doesn't help that the term 'tile' is variously used to describe a 16 metres by 16 metres square and a whole city map.) So, yes the small and medium city tiles are smaller, but the large city in SimCity 4 seems to be the same as in SimCity 3000. I moved directly from SimCity 3000 to SimCity 4 and I certainly didn't notice SimCity 4 being more cramped. 

 

 

[CorinaMarie 29,918]

54 minutes ago, glazert said:

The size of the map in SC3000 was 256 x 256 basic tiles. The size of a large city in SimCity 4 is 256 x256 basic tiles.

^ Yep. This is precisely true.

And the same size grayscale for importing/rendering in SC3000 works in SC4 for a single large tile. You can see a 3000 render here. So, as far as size goes, SC4 has you covered. You can create a region that is simply one large tile which is 256 x 256 little squares inside. Streets and roads take up the same 1 tile width in both games so I'd say the scale is really the same between the two games. Avenues are two tiles wide in both. (In 3000 you draw two roads side by side and it fills in the median whereas in SC4 you have a separate tool for the same effect.)

Where SC4 excels is that you can have as many city tiles as your comp can handle and if you have transportation connections between them they share the demand as if the whole region was one city. The only difference is you can't view them all at once at the closest zooms. For that you are restricted to the region views.

The bottom line is one large SC4 tile is the same size as SC3000.

[pclark06 12,094]

I love both... I even "interconnect" SC3K and SC4 regions in my own playing like they are canon. I don't see a need to "switch" from one or the other when both are cheaply available to play.

[RobertLM78 1,598]

On 7/25/2017 at 3:17 PM, glazert said:

I am a bit puzzled. The size of the map in SC3000 was 256 x 256 basic tiles. The size of a large city in SimCity 4 is 256 x256 basic tiles. (It doesn't help that the term 'tile' is variously used to describe a 16 metres by 16 metres square and a whole city map.) So, yes the small and medium city tiles are smaller, but the large city in SimCity 4 seems to be the same as in SimCity 3000. I moved directly from SimCity 3000 to SimCity 4 and I certainly didn't notice SimCity 4 being more cramped.

Exactly what I was thinking: it's been a while since I've played SC3000, but I seem to recall the biggest map being 256x256 tiles, so there's really no difference in size.  While I think SC3000 was a bit more liberal with how it populated a map, I've gotten pretty large populations (e.g. about 1.5 million) on large city maps in SC4 without any special mods or cheats - just lots o' patience.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

I'd like to chime in with an entirely different train of thought:

I think perception might be skewed by the amount of custom content we have these days for SC4, a large part of which has come to be viewed as a kind of de facto standard - think of the NAM, to mention the most prominent example.

We constantly see wide radius curves, FA networks, humonguous interchanges, sprawling airports, university campuses, stadiums amidst vast seas of parking lot concrete, gigantic shopping malls and whatnot - all stuff that is much more realistically dimensioned than most of what you'd see in SC3000. Of course, it also takes up far more space. If you project this onto a 256x256 grid, your city will be smaller than a city built with SC3000 vanilla. Or rather, its scale will be much more realistic.

You can still build as densely packed, and you can still reach similar population numbers, but only if you compromise on realism a little. This was not a problem with SC3000 because there wasn't really a full-fledged alternative, but things look different for SC4 - even more so because the region concept actively encourages players not to cram everything into one map.

[matias93 7,535]

It's also something that SC4 users can see comparing their beginner's cities with their current ones: both learning and using more custom content usually drives one away from unrealistical densities, abandoning the skyscraper forests for mid height urban centres, or at least spacing them with hectares of parking lots.

[jbkone 14]

On 7/25/2017 at 2:52 PM, Fantozzi said:

I must confess - this is something fascinating. How people are tricked in situations that causes stress. You may know about this debates - happening here the same as elswhere - which game is better, which political party is better, which car is better. These kind of discussion always start civilized but everybody is already prepared that people get more and more excited in defending their opinion and they get into a spiral of stress.

 

On 7/25/2017 at 2:52 PM, Fantozzi said:

The pressure is a fake. To make you fear of wrong decissions is part of the marketing strategy - if you don't chose this game you will miss one of the best experiences of your life. You know, in a system developing by trial and error, it's the error that gives the best experience, not the ticket.

@Fantozzi I know I'm late to the party, but I loved your post!  Thank you.  I tell you, I truly enjoyed this post.  This doesn't need to devolve into a philosophical discussion, just know reading it really moved me.  Thank you. 

[Lucario Boricua 7,058]

SimCity 4 is designed around regional gameplay--the old strategy of building a single tile metropolis which applied until SimCity 3000 doesn't apply here. I prefer to think of cities in SimCity 4 as districts, wards or neighborhoods, rather than as full cities. It does take a lot of patience to adapt to this gameplay style if you come from SC3000, but the results can be impressive!

 

Kingdom of Borike (2021-2022, active)

 

Kingdom of Rota (2019-2021, pending resumption)

 

Sinnoh Region (2017-2019, pending resumption)

 

Río Platino (2011-2012, retired)

 

Granted, it doesn't help the game doesn't have any method to visualize the whole region at a close distance in-game, which limits how immersive it can feel for players who hunger for the region to feel big and full.

[kkffoo 259]

@Lucario Boricua I love how integrated your regional designs look, very impressive. Trying to make these realistic style connections feels like an exciitng challenge to me as a fairly new player. Do you recommend a particular mod or application for creating a clean image of your whole map?

[TheMurderousCricket 5,117]

2 hours ago, kkffoo said:

@Lucario Boricua I love how integrated your regional designs look, very impressive. Trying to make these realistic style connections feels like an exciitng challenge to me as a fairly new player. Do you recommend a particular mod or application for creating a clean image of your whole map?

In terms of "post-production", you definitely want to try out GIMP.

https://www.gimp.org/

It has an excellent "wand select" mechanic which allows you to cut city tiles clean with precisely zero effort. Then, you can composite desired city tiles back again by creating layers and arranging them in order. This is actually precisely what I did for my latest SC:T entry. The floating cities and all of the surrounding terrains have simply been cut out and pieced back together in GIMP.

Before you do that, however, you may want to get rid of any tile background that you use in game. The idea is to have a perfectly black background for the program to easily pick up and erase.

[Lucario Boricua 7,058]

8 hours ago, kkffoo said:

@Lucario Boricua I love how integrated your regional designs look, very impressive. Trying to make these realistic style connections feels like an exciitng challenge to me as a fairly new player. Do you recommend a particular mod or application for creating a clean image of your whole map?

 

You can use either of these:

 

Sawtooth's Region Census (SC4D/LEX): the simpler of these two programs, this one allows you to get a full screenshot of the region, and a small summary of basic demographic (population, jobs) and economic (city funds) data. This one does struggle with exceptionally large regions. For these cases, make sure to activate all the combinations of regional view settings (borders, city/mayor names, satellite/transportation view) before exiting the game, and ideally open the program without other programs running in your computer.

https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=913

 

Klyte's Region Exporter as Webpage (STEX): the more elaborate of the two programs, this one creates something akin to a GIS (geographic information system) application website, allowing the user to get rich demographic and economic data of each city of their region, along with regional-level information and a composite image showing all the cities. The one limitation this one has is it requires the player to have opened and saved each city at least once. More recommended for mature regions, where you'd generally be assured that all cities have been opened and saved at some point.

 

On the topic of making image selection easier, here's some background options for the game!

 

This one's for the regional view, and you could probably edit these (they're PNG images with the correct name) to match whatever sea water mod you're using.

 

This is a wide variety assortment (there's a few others elsewhere), you might either want to use the starry night backgrounds, or edit the images to use a solid color for easier image selection (same deal, PNG files with the corresponding names).

 

[TheMurderousCricket 5,117]

@Lucario Boricua now, let me pick your brain for a moment...

Have you ever been successful at viewing large regions... sideways? Through KREW?

Whenever I run a KREW-generated regionpage, I can scroll the resultant webpage up and down. However, I never get any scrollbar for moving the page sideways, regardless of the browser I use. 

[Lucario Boricua 7,058]

@TheMurderousCricket Have you tried clicking with the scroll wheel of your mouse, and then moving it around to see other parts of the region? It's a bit unintuitive, but it should work, unless your mouse lacked a scroll wheel for some weird reason. I do think the program should use other options to move around the view, for players' convenience.

[kkffoo 259]

@TheMurderousCricket thank you, I use gimp already but I hadn't considered using it for region maps.
@Lucario Boricua Wow, that's a lot of stuff to try and play around with, thank you for your excellent notes too!

[SIM-ple Jack 17,451]

17 hours ago, Lucario Boricua said:

I prefer to think of cities in SimCity 4 as districts, wards or neighborhoods, rather than as full cities.

Agreed!

[TheMurderousCricket 5,117]

1 hour ago, Lucario Boricua said:

@TheMurderousCricket Have you tried clicking with the scroll wheel of your mouse, and then moving it around to see other parts of the region? It's a bit unintuitive, but it should work, unless your mouse lacked a scroll wheel for some weird reason. I do think the program should use other options to move around the view, for players' convenience.

Ahhh, that worked like a charm! Thanks!

[Odainsaker 2,137]

BTW, SimCity4 Startup Manager (SUM) 3.0 by JeanLucPicard2 on SimCityKurier can also export entire region view images, including extremely large regions that exceed the limits of Sawtooth's Region Census.  Although it is actually specifically geared for assigning sets of plugins to particular regions, I admit I use it as a standalone tool rather than at startup and solely for the extreme region view image export function.  Just in case, I have patched my 3.0 version of the tool using the 4GB patch, and it has been capable of exporting regions of 31 x 52 large cities as 18846 x 11740 pixel PNG images on transparent backgrounds.

 

Here is one zoomed out (8.33%) example opened in Photoshop so we can see the background treatment:

(Here is a 25% size, whose 4712 pixel width is just under the 5000 pixel maximum width allowed by Imgur.  This one has been flattened and saved as a lossy JPG.)

This region map size skirts the edge of the in-game horizontal and vertical scroll bugs, as the rightmost and lowermost corner tiles are partially obscured in the in-game region view but are actually still accessible to play via triple-clicking.  Using the SC4 Startup Manager 3.0 region export tool is the only way to see these tiles fully in region view.  Beyond 31 large tiles horizontally there will be tiles along the right corner that are full obscured and inaccessible from play due to the horizontal scroll bug.  The vertical scroll bug varies based on width:  at a width of 31 large tiles, the vertical scroll bug causes fully obscured and inaccessible tiles along the bottom corner after 52 vertical tiles, while at a width of 1 or 2 large tiles, the vertical scroll bug causes obscured and inaccessible tiles along the left and bottom corners after 63 vertical tiles.  I do not know if the SC4 Startup Manager will render those region tiles that are completely obscured and inaccessible by the game, though I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

[Simizen 1,100]

So, I want to elaborate on why many players think the maps in SC4 are smaller than that of 3K, even if the largest of 4's is 256 and matches that of a large city map in 3K.

Essentially, it comes down to scale. In 3K, it was super easy and enjoyable to build up a massive city, the likes of NYC or Tokyo, because you had such an enormous amount of room.

However, in 4, that's not the case (sort of). I absolutely love the regional aspect as it allows for tons more to be done, but, you don't really get the same feeling as that of 3K. For starters, a default region automatically informs you that your city is "small" by default (even if it is the largest size there). Interestingly enough, people overlook how the 2 games work on the visual level (idk the correct term for this part). 3K's scale is 1 tile = 1 acre; whereas 4's scale is 1 tile = 16 meters (~52 feet). This means that it takes 4x4 tiles in 4, to equate to the same tile in 3K. Interestingly enough, the default region size, based on 4's scale, is the same as that of 3K's city size (10x10 miles). So, in effect we do get the bigger city we want, but, the way it's scaled, we don't really get that same feeling as we did before in 3K.

And, to correct a misconception, yes, most networks are 1 tile wide in both games, but, the issue here isn't that we've got the same size, it's that we now have more network tiles to place down, to get to the same levels of density that we could easily get in 3K.

To clarify in 3K:
-Residential zones built 4 tiles (acres) in from roads
-Commercial built 3 tiles (acres) in
-Industrial built 5 tiles (acres) in

In SC4, however, zones typically build in at around 3 tiles deep, and even then, the game's still pretty picky. In 3K, you could cheat, and push the limits to an extra tile deep, but, you'd have to have made it pretty far in city advancement (skyscrapers, massive demand, etc). And, if you're super lucky, you could pull off going yet another tile further in, but, that's plenty difficult to pull off (but not impossible).

But, in regards to 4, you've got directional zones, alongside the fact that now we're having to manually cover acres of land, vs just drawing out an 8x8 square for homes, we'd now have to fill up 32x32 tiles. Unfortunately, going by the default zoning rules in 4, you're actually going to be coming up rather short on your full 8x8 acres (you'd probably be at 5.5 x 5.5) due to all of the side streets you've got to lay down as well. Only 2 zones in SC4 are free of that limitation, and that's Industrial and Landfill (and Industrial's already proving difficult due to still drawing in streets).

Couple this with the sizes of reward buildings and other ploppables changing between the games, where some actually got bigger, and of course even more unlockables as a result, and we're now faced with a 256x256 tile city, that can hardly hold 30-40% of what we used to have.

Now, personally, I'm not saying that SC4 is bad, or worse than 3K in general, it's an absolutely incredible game imo, and loads of fun to play. But, for many people who were on 3K for a long period of time, upon switching over and discovering that your biggest sized city is 1/16th that of what you previously had access to, you suddenly learn that, the environment you're playing in, is considerably smaller than before. Unfortunately, along with this, comes the added problem of being unable to work out how SC4 works, in comparison to that of 3K, as many of the tactics you can use in 3K to build up and out quickly and rack up the profits, are suddenly causing you to suffocate, even on the easier levels. And it gets even more complicated when you're staring at both games and see that they're the same game, yet, are functionally different enough that they're almost not even related.

However, with everything I've seen with both 3k and 4, and even many of the comments, topics, articles, etc, about how 4 functions, and it's many bugs, I feel that the devs started off with 3K's rules/system, and then just scaled it up, but, never completed the adjustments. An example would be the landfills: I believe they're actually working as intended, but, due to the scale of the game being vastly different (tile sizes, garbage production, etc), it's unable to handle it properly. So, I think many of the issues that plague 4, that didn't exist in 3K (not accounting for newly added features), result from many of the in-game settings being left untouched from 3K.

That all said, I still love both games to death, and still love playing them. I thought I'd just expand on why anybody would think/feel that SC4 is "smaller" in size compared to that of 3K. It's primarily a scaling thing, and what we've now got access to that we never had before.