TMC's Drawing Board - plan first, build later

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

I have to admit that I haven't accomplished much in SC4 yet.

So far, I have only developed 11 tiles (4 of which were in San Francisco) and had barely any plan in my mind when building them up.

I mean, sure, central square, shops, NIMBY but that's it.

This time, I'd like to try something different. I'd like to build some of my cities according to a proper plan.

This is why I would like to ask you for your comments and invite you to make ammendments and suggestions to my newest city plan which you can find attached below. There are many players who are more experienced than I am, so it will be very nice to hear your opinions on the matter. It will be a form of public consultations. 

Consider my plan below for a new municipality of, oh let's call it, city "E". Generally speaking, it will be a coastal city with a seaport, some industry and (demand willing) commercial offices.

A few words of explanation...

The jerky line is the approximate area of the city. The upper half of the page is a blank sketch which you can use to draft and share your own plan for city "E" if you like.

The "C" districts are just some sort of commercial development. I have no particular preference which type will it be - just some sort of business. "P" stands for seaports of course.

I'm somewhat undecided as to the placement of R$$ zones. Perhaps they should be more condensed, (like the R$ and R$$$ zones) to create a better sense of community between the residents.

Please note that the plan does not contain any civic buildings or parks but of course they will be taken into account. I just did not want to clutter the drawing too much. Of course, I do plan to put them in later - once I find out where they can do the most good.

Hmm, is there anything else that needs to be explained... I guess not. Now I'll leave it up to you.

You are kindly invited to revise, redraw and review my plan. If you prefer to just leave a comment instead of sketching, that's absolutely fine as well. I am eager to see where will this discussion take us. 

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

No input from the constituents? Oh well, in that case I will build this city just the way I want! 

Attached below, however, is a plan of another city. This time it's a small, island-based town. Like before, I am uploading my suggestion as well as a blank version where you can put your own proposals and evaluate my design. Thanks! 

[Raymond7cn 6,772]

It brings back some memories as I did the same thing during the class, Then my teacher took it away.

Very nice draft TMC, I'm just not sure about the road between main road and the seaport or ferry. Anyway, Looking forward how it looks like when building in game. oh Wait, Is that a board underneath of my favorite chess [Go]?

Sincerely,

-- Raymond

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

3 hours ago, Raymond7cn said:

Is that a board underneath of my favorite chess [Go]?

Yes it is!  

[TogaMasterJohn 705]

Looking at the first sketch, I think it is a good layout! Seems balanced enough. Not bad at all, in my opinion.

I haven't played SC4 in a while due to time and I'm finally able to get back into my favorite city-simulation (I only liked the SimCity games), if not my favorite game of all time honestly.

I've done similar sketches before. In fact, a friend of mine requested me (more like a challenge ) to do a large tile with multiple "towns" in it and he drew it out on a notecard for me.

Anyways, the island based town idea is pretty cool too! Is the middle of the map supposed to be park space or is it going to be an area with no development (like trees or something)?

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

Good morning @TogaMasterJohn. Always nice to hear from you.

It's good to know that other people before me have taken simmilar steps! 

The first city will be quite large and the bigger they get, the more complicated they become. It's prudent to have something to guide one on their mayoral path.

I'm glad you like the designs. To answer your question, the middle part of the island city is a small fort from the colonnial times.

This is why I decided to surround the site with commercial services. Hunting for souvenirs or having a cup of coffee while being able to admire the very reason for your visit seems like a nice scheme to be tourist-trapped in.

But what @Raymond7cn mentioned is indeed of concern to me. I'm afraid that industrial infrastructure may interfere with the leisurely mood of this town. No industry...? Why not.

[TogaMasterJohn 705]

3 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

Good morning @TogaMasterJohn. Always nice to hear from you.

Good morning @TheMurderousCricket  Thanks! I enjoy hearing from you as well.

Quote

But what @Raymond7cn mentioned is indeed of concern to me. I'm afraid that industrial infrastructure may interfere with the leisurely mood of this town. No industry...? Why not.

That is a good point. It's one of those things where it takes further decision and planning. I don't know how many times I've launched SC4 and closed it after 5 minutes due to not being able to decide what to do!

In terms of a leisurely mood with industry concerns, Winona Lake, IN comes to mind in this case.

Winona Lake, as the name suggests, includes a decent sized lake surrounded by lovely businesses and restaurants, beach area, parks, R$$ to R$$$ housing and more. There are some industrial areas (mainly manufacturing) here and there, but it doesn't seem to interfere with the beauty and leisure of the lake and the big aspects of the small city/very large town that it is. It is one my favorite places to go and visit. Just sit by the water and just watch it flow for hours... it's very relaxing!

Anyways, literally right next to Winona Lake is one of the "big" cities is Warsaw, IN (it's by no means the biggest here in northern Indiana, but it is an important one). Warsaw does have plenty of recreational areas and a handful of lakes, but it's more commercial and industry oriented.

In this case, instead of a lake, the fort could be the center of attention (literally ) and have businesses around it. I'd even suggest a few plazas - one to help the businesses but to also help with the recreational idea, too. There are many ideas and possibilities! This is one of the reasons why I really love this masterpiece of a game. It may have some quirks and such, but it makes for a great, enjoyable game.

Especially if you get into the custom content scene, but that's a whole other thing!

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

25 minutes ago, TogaMasterJohn said:

In terms of a leisurely mood with industry concerns, Winona Lake, IN comes to mind in this case.

Interesting reference material! Thanks for letting me know.

In this case, the island town will most likely follow Winona Lake's example and excell in small business, hotels and tourism.

Since space is limited due to topography, it may be challenging and esthetically displeasing to try and plant industry and a big seaport there. 

 

[TogaMasterJohn 705]

You're welcome! Question: how big of a tile will the small island city settle on? (I'd guess a medium tile)?

Sometimes in areas where a lot of industry might not be the most pleasing to see in terms of aesthetics, I like to plop a I-M or I-H lot or two by Simmer2 and/or Matt. Those generally tend to be more aesthetically pleasing compared to the Maxis industry. That way there are some industrial jobs so the Sims don't complain too much about the lack of industrial jobs.

If you are playing vanilla (no custom content) or mostly vanilla (with or without the basic NAM controller and/or some custom content that is similar to Maxis stuff), you could zone a small pocket or two of medium to high industrial zoning. This, of course, depends on your education and land value.

Of course, it is up to you as the mayor to decide how to use the land! 

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

It's not as much of an industry question as it is of putting a rather ugly and unweildy seaport in this tourist paradise.

I could, of course, allow some Kane Tiberiums (I love that cameo by the way) to grow in this town. But making sure they lift their goods out is problematic in an esthetic sense!

Speaking of custom content, this is where it could really help.  If I could find some small, handsome substitute for the vannila port, then I could give this version a go.

[TogaMasterJohn 705]

While I have PEG's seaport stuff saved in my "check-out" list, I have not tried it nor any of the BSC seaport stuff either.

I would recommend checking out PEG's seaport stuff (there's many add-one too if I remember correctly) and the big BSC pack and go from there. The Maxis seaport, while bland yet neat looking in its own way, is definitely lame when compared to the custom seaports I have seen.

It's a good thing that you brought up the seaport issue, because after looking some more I might finally decide what to go with  especially for my new region.

[twalsh102 1,601]

@TheMurderousCricket, quick question:

Since your island map shows that you are totally disconnected from any map edge, what are your plans for dealing with commercial and industrial demand caps, or aren't you at the point in your plans of considering that yet? I saw the port off on the right side of the island, but your comments suggest you might do without it if you can't find one to meet your aesthetic goals.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

Thank you for your question @twalsh102. Now to answer it...

In this town, demand is mainly driven by the demand generated elsewhere in the region. The island town received a considerable headstart because of that.

I started to build this town already and the businesses and residents seem to be satisfied.  The R and C demand actually grows the more people settle in, even without a boat to deliver them to the rest of the region!

To keep the answer short: "Caps? What caps...?" 

But to be serious, I'm just not experiencing any. Perhaps it's because of the pent-up demand generated in my other municipalities.

Also of note is that this will be a small town. No more than 9000 residents, I guess. That's another reason why I'm not worried about caps.

Industry, of course, is a whole lot different story because they just have to get their goods out. They are mostly failing and ailing as currently there is, indeed, no port in this town!

But what's important for my vision here is that commerce and residential can, apparently, comfortably live isolated from civilization as long as they support each other.

R Sims will be happy in this setting as long as their health and education levels allow them to be employed in the commerce - the only option possible.  

I do plan to put that ferry terminal down to grant my Sims some freedom of movement (ferry terminals look nice). Seaport is a question of esthetics and there won't be one unless I find a handsome replacement for it.

P.S.: Featured? Thanks! 

[twalsh102 1,601]

Since we aren't mind readers, for topics such as this one, things like a sense of scale for the map provided (i.e. size of city tile being used, proportion of the city tile represented by your map, and where on your city tile the map will exist), whether your map will be stand-alone or part of a region, and any limitations you're imposing (such as maximum intended Residential Population), are certainly valuable pieces of information to have before trying to offer relevant, helpful comments. Otherwise we're just shooting in the dark, and we're probably wasting both your time (having to read something that has no relevance to what you're trying to accomplish), and ours (coming up with such irrelevant missives). So please help us help you!

Just in case you're not already aware of this (I have no way of determining whether your question on Caps is just sarcasm, or you really don't know how they work): Despite the name, Demand Caps are essentially limits on the maximum allowable population for each Developer Type without any mitigation. This is specific to each city, and has nothing to do with how much demand currently exists. The game mechanics are such that once you reach the Cap for a particular Developer Type, your local Demand is reduced to zero until mitigated.  Initial Demand Caps allow for 20,000 R$, 2,000 R$$, and 1,000 R$$$. Residential Demand Cap is easily mitigated by stuff you're probably already building (parks, gardens, plazas, etc). There is no Demand Cap for CS, which may be your saving grace. CO$$ Cap is 3,000 and 2,000 for CO$$$. CO Demand Cap relief pretty much requires either Neighbor Connections or an Airport. Industrial Demand Cap is 20,000 for IR, 14,000 for ID, 7,000 for IM and 4,000 for IHT. Industrial Demand Cap relief depends on trips to either a port or reaching a Neighbor Connection. There are some Reward buildings that provide some limited Demand Cap Relief for specific CO or Industrial wealth levels (limited in that they are rewards that generally (unless using custom content) can only be plopped once in your city. Be aware that there is some weirdness here related to the IR Cap: IR jobs do not count against the IR cap, but ALL other non-IR jobs do count against the IR Cap.

FYI, a maximum Residential population of 9,000 Sims delivers approx. 4,500 job-eligible Sims.

EDIT: BTW, if I'm not mistaken, regional demand can only be shared among connected cities

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

Sorry to say this, but I think I don't like your tone.

You treat this topic far too seriously. It is intended to offer some rudimentary sketches of my towns without overloading anyone's mind with numerous details. This is just a game. Not a matter of life and death...

Secondly, because it is just a game, I have neither time nor obligation to prepare an up-to-scale draft and business plan, just to entertain someone's expectations. If you look for a professional city plan printed on a blue paper, I am sorry - you won't find it here.

I appreciate the thorough data you have included in your post, but I am at a loss trying to understand why would my topic evoke such negative emotions in you... Especially if, as you said, you have no way to determine whether I was sarcastic or not (and I wasn't).

[Cyclone Boom 16,938]

@TheMurderousCricket

Please be assured it was a great idea to open this topic, and is the reason we've given it the added the Featured star  to it.

Your idea for sharing your sketches is a really clear and creative way to show your city building thought process.

I realise how you interpreted it as such, but I suspect @twalsh102 didn't intend their post to come across in a negative light.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

I'm sure you are right @Cyclone Boom.

The entire point of this topic is more like "Guys, how do you like it?" rather than "Guys, help!". 

This is just a relaxed, carefree discussion about city drafts and sketches. I just wanted to clear this up.

But rest assured I'm not the kind of person who holds grudges. 

[BartonThinks 3,416]

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of the original plan. That's mostly because the island looks a bit artificial, which isn't my preferred style. I'm a bit skeptical of the balance between residential and commercial/industrial zones in both cities. In my experience, residential areas take up much more space. But that might just be a product of the cities I build.

As a small recommendation, I think it might be helpful to use graph paper (if sticking with paper and pencil) or a digital program for this, since that makes it a lot easier to understand the scale and layout. Using a digital program would also make it a lot easier for people to offer their own designs or suggestions, so it might be helpful for generating discussion in this thread. That said, I tend to be a pencil and paper guy myself for these kinds of initial plans, so I'd understand if you feel more comfortable with that option.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

36 minutes ago, BartonThinks said:

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of the original plan.

Do you mean the first plan posted here, or the initial island town concept? (with port and industry)

38 minutes ago, BartonThinks said:

I'm a bit skeptical of the balance between residential and commercial/industrial zones in both cities

Yep. That might differ indeed. I'd like to keep the zones roughly where they currently are. I'm ready to go for a compromise or two if need be. If a zone develops exceptionally well - Why restrict it? If it is not needed - time to plow it over and replace with something different. 

54 minutes ago, BartonThinks said:

As a small recommendation, I think it might be helpful to use graph paper (if sticking with paper and pencil) or a digital program for this

Funny you mention this, because this is something that I did keep in the back of my head. I just wanted to rest from the screen and that's why everything is hand-drawn so far!  I am a computer-savvy person but pencil & paper is, generally, more comfortable and easier to use. But I'm sure you know that already!

Good technical suggestions though - I'll definitely keep them in mind. 

[BartonThinks 3,416]

5 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

Do you mean the first plan posted here, or the initial island town concept? (with port and industry)

Yep. That might differ indeed. I'd like to keep the zones roughly where they currently are. I'm ready to go for a compromise or two if need be. If a zone develops exceptionally well - Why restrict it? If it is not needed - time to plow it over and replace with something different. 

Funny you mention this, because this is something that I did keep in the back of my head. I just wanted to rest from the screen and that's why everything is hand-drawn so far!  I am a computer-savvy person but pencil & paper is, generally, more comfortable and easier to use. But I'm sure you know that already!

Good technical suggestions though - I'll definitely keep them in mind. 

Sorry - I meant the first plan you posted with the coastal town/city, as opposed to the island town. The note about the artificiality was mostly about the squareish shape of the island, but also the fact that islands typically don't develop that heavily unless they're part of a larger city. Again, that's more of a personal preference than anything else.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

9 minutes ago, BartonThinks said:

Sorry - I meant the first plan you posted with the coastal town/city, as opposed to the island town. The note about the artificiality was mostly about the squareish shape of the island

Ah, okay. Understood. As far as the artificial shape of the island is concerned. Well... I couldn't agree more! 

The thing is that I am following a certain source material from the 90's. It looks terrible by today's standards, I agree. It's the question of fidelity, so I just decided to play along and keep it unchanged.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

I'd like to share a drawing which contains a solution to the farm-desirability problem, which I described in this post. I believe it should be explained a little better, because this is a very useful way to bypass the desirability dip due to traffic.

Before we start, I'd just like to mention that it works with SPAM and NAM mods applied. Not sure about the vannila game or other modifications, but I guess it should work as well.

Ok, first, let me just explain what my doodling is all about and what happens in the draft below:

1. We have a farm tile lodged between two large cities.
2. Workers from these cities arrive to the farms...
3. ...and pay the "farm desirability impact fee" for the traffic problems they cause. 

Now, because traffic is damaging to the agriculture, we cannot allow the workers to just roam around the entire area. We need to arrange it in a special way.

4. One farm is built up-front to the access road.
5. Other farm buildings are built adjacent to each other (so they are "chained" together).
6. All farms offer employment...
7. ...but entire traffic is funneled only to the farm building constructed first! 

A picture is worth a thousand words. But an in-game picture is worth a million! 

Note that in the screenshot below, I actually click on the rightmost farm to obtain the route query information. The simulator, however, recognizes that:

1. All of these farms are one!

2. That there is a "reception desk" and Sims don't have to report in person at each individual building.

[Spaceblaze 194]

Hello @TheMurderousCricket

 

I really like the way you in depth, or micro manage your "plan"

I personally am not into drawing a city on paper at first (anymore), although I have some slight memory of doing this in a way back time. As I remember I was always busy with the blocks I should(would) create and until today I still am experimenting with blocks of R/C/I, but these days I just try it on a city and see what works best 

The problems I encountered in the way back time when I draw cities on paper where these

Should the block be 9x9 wide and then a road around it, or should it be 6x6.  And what to do with blocks that have a railroad line in them, or a highway. What happens if you place the town hall, or a school in side a block and there are many more buildings and facilities that don't "fit" in to the, what I call, the American way of building cities. There are just too much things that mess up the 9x9 or 6x6 grid.

The one thing I notice after coming back the game in dec 2020 is that I have let go of the strickt seperation of R,C,I areas and maybe this is the reason why I sucseed in my Greenland region these days and as I remember my failure at many regions in the past. Today, when there is an railroad intersection that, or something else that mess up my grid I place commercial arround it. Even when it is deep into a residential area(maybe more European style)

What I am trying to say, I don't know, just keep going

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

Thanks @Spaceblaze, happy to hear from you.

I definitely understand your concerns regarding the most efficient use of the 6x6 / 9x9 grid!

I have a city which is entirely made of 6x6 cells. Any time I want or need to put down a bus stop or a subway station, I get a cringe...

Of course, it breaks the cell apart and costs you a highrise and the tax money it could bring. If only VSL was a thing for other zone types apart from agriculture... 

My solution to this problem is to create, what I call, "service quarters". There, I put transit, schools, hospitals - anything that fits really. This way, other cells are not broken apart. Besides, given the circular service ranges in SC4 I believe it is good to keep these buildings concentrated most of the time.

[BartonThinks 3,416]

3 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

Thanks @Spaceblaze, happy to hear from you.

I definitely understand your concerns regarding the most efficient use of the 6x6 / 9x9 grid!

I have a city which is entirely made of 6x6 cells. Any time I want or need to put down a bus stop or a subway station, I get a cringe...

Of course, it breaks the cell apart and costs you a highrise and the tax money it could bring. If only VSL was a thing for other zone types apart from agriculture... 

My solution to this problem is to create, what I call, "service quarters". There, I put transit, schools, hospitals - anything that fits really. This way, other cells are not broken apart. Besides, given the circular service ranges in SC4 I believe it is good to keep these buildings concentrated most of the time.

Have you tried using the Roadtop Mass Transit mod? Works wonders for this sort of thing.

[kschmidt 6,164]

On 13-8-2021 at 2:13 PM, TheMurderousCricket said:

Thanks @Spaceblaze, happy to hear from you.

I definitely understand your concerns regarding the most efficient use of the 6x6 / 9x9 grid!

I have a city which is entirely made of 6x6 cells. Any time I want or need to put down a bus stop or a subway station, I get a cringe...

Of course, it breaks the cell apart and costs you a highrise and the tax money it could bring. If only VSL was a thing for other zone types apart from agriculture... 

My solution to this problem is to create, what I call, "service quarters". There, I put transit, schools, hospitals - anything that fits really. This way, other cells are not broken apart. Besides, given the circular service ranges in SC4 I believe it is good to keep these buildings concentrated most of the time.

Grid block sizes, compaired to the installed plugins are a difficult subject. Some time I recognized that if you removed the maxis standard tile sets you enter a world where you yourself need to supply the Bat´s. Growable or plopable there´s the difference growable allmost for certain will have a certain maximum size repeated several times in quit regular sizes, Plopable buildings are more irregulair in plop sizes. Growable change to hit the right growable are rather slim, residentials allmost  imposible or you should have only those installed wich you want.to use. Sketching a general map of a city tile I adapted for most of my Anno Europe project as these are rather imaginative cities created. American cities are wide watch Halljackey´s work, 6x6 or 9x9, a combination for me works best.Break up the grid a 9x9 offers room for a inbetween  road, another thing to concider is the widening of road to avenue or nwm. Last resort are the road top networks and the subway but as general american settings favor cars above public transport need first to be researched !

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

Hello Community. 

Guess it's time to bump this topic a little bit, because I have a planning-related problem / thought experiment that I'd like to explore in detail.

The buzzword for today is "Park & Ride".

I'd like to ask you where, in real or SC4 cities, the "Park & Ride" facilities should normally be located, to be the most effective?

If I understand that correctly, "Park & Ride" facilities are usually placed next to large public transport hubs. This way, people who live in the areas where public transport is scarce, can use their cars to reach these hubs, park and then continue their commute by the means of public transport. Would that be correct?

Anyways, I am eager to see your suggestions. 

[CorinaMarie 29,621]

7 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

If I understand that correctly, "Park & Ride" facilities are usually placed next to large public transport hubs. This way, people who live in the areas where public transport is scarce, can use their cars to reach these hubs, park and then continue their commute by the means of public transport. Would that be correct?

This is partial guessing, but I believe the idea is for various suburbs within large cities to have train stations scattered throughout so if, say, someone lives in a residential area of New Rochelle in New York they could drive on less busy streets to the local station, hop on the train and ride it to another station in Long Island (or such). From there they'd walk the rest of the way to work or catch a bus if needed.

[jbkone 14]

On 8/13/2021 at 10:32 AM, BartonThinks said:

Have you tried using the Roadtop Mass Transit mod? Works wonders for this sort of thing

I tried searching for that and didn't come up with anything.  What is Roadtop Mass Transit?  Can you give me a link?

[TheMurderousCricket 5,057]

2 hours ago, jbkone said:

What is Roadtop Mass Transit? 

It's a mod which allows you to, sort of, "designate" road tiles as having a bus stop on them rather than next to them. 

Note, that this is actually how most of the tram-in-road and tram-in-street stops in NAM work. You don't have to place a tram stop next to a road. You can contain them within a road.