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    4 minutes ago, Tarkus said:

    The Traffic Simulator Configuration Tool is included in the NAM download, and there's nothing preventing anyone from installing it without installing the rest of the mod.  Any sort of other fixes are intermingled in with the rest of the NAM . . . though we're looking at making "lite" or otherwise more "basic" releases in addition to the full-blast NAM, or at least making some mechanism to more easily get that.

    I'll also note, NAM 39 is on ModDB now (and should be up on the STEX soon).

    -Tarkus

    Excellent!!!

    I'll check it as soon as I get a chance!

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    1 hour ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    2. @rsc204 where can I find the I-H fix that you mention?

    Sorry, meant to go back and add the link before clicking post :).

    1 hour ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    1. Could you teach me how can I get the NAM Traffic Simulator (NAM lite) to work?

    Well that's rather the problem, right now there isn't one. Instead you need to take the NAM installer, do things in a certain way, such as only to get the bear essentials. The NAM is a huge and very complex mod which can quickly get overwhelming. But it also hugely modular and you can install it bit-by-bit or just very selective parts if you so choose.

    When you get to the Installer Options (files tab), for a basic NAM install, you should untick sections 2 and 3 entirely. Make sure the options under each of the other sections is as desired, then continue the installer. When you are done, you will need to do two other things, using tools from within the NAM installer download:

    1. Use the 4GB Patch, to patch the main SimCity 4.exe file (part of the game's installed files)
      This will ensure moderns systems can take advantage of the additional memory you surely have. It's mandatory if you don't also do the following:
    2. Run the Controller Compiler
      The "Controller" is basically all code that is needed to make things work. When you drag two roads together, how does the game know what to do?, something known as RUL code handles all this stuff. The default installed controller of the NAM, has to function with every conceivable component of the NAM, or it wouldn't work out of the box. But, for those neither needing nor wanting to run the full set of NAM choices, you can use the Controller Compiler to make a custom Controller, only containing that code you actually need. This will cut down on game loading times significantly if you simply remove the RHW part when running it.

      But if you do install none of the parts from section 2 and 3 of the installer, you can remove a lot more besides. If you untick all of the optional sections from the Controller Compiler in this scenario, you will have the equivalent of "NAM Lite" or at least the nearest thing we have right now.

    For more complete instructions on working with the NAM installer and it's additional components, see the following:

    Of course you are also free to go through all the options and add a few things you like the look of or even just go nuts with a full install. But NAM adds so many new features and networks, due to it's longevity, that I wouldn't recommend trying to juggle all that at once.

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    Head over to my Lot and Mod Shack to keep abreast of my latest developments.

    Do you like custom textures, but don't like all the work involved creating them?, take a look at the Texture Automation options here. Change the look and feel of your transit networks, with the minimum of effort, for example customised versions of my Sidewalk NAM (SWN) and Terrain Grass NAM (TGN) mods, and much more besides.

    New to the NAM? Check out my tutorials on YouTube. Latest upload: How to: RHW - MHO Roundabout Interchanges. (Nov 25).

    p.s. - I'm MGB over on SC4D and a member of the NAM team.

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    1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

    I'm not sure if you can just use the TSEC as a stand-alone mod, I believe you should have some form of NAM install if that's going to work. @Tarkus, can you confirm this please?

    Right, but what I'm reading is "I want to consider myself at Best, when in reality I am only at Middle". I never get this, why the rush, SC4 hates it when you rush, you can ONLY be successful rushing, if you understand all the things you must have in place to make it sustainable.

    If that is really true, sorry I'm having a hard time believing you can only have 3% R$ sims, that sounds like your game would be horribly broken if so.

    ==============================================================

    Let's look at I-HT and CO$$$ buildings, those which employ the highest number of R$$$ sims:

    I-HT - Hsu Accelerators, which employs 91 Sims.

    I-HT_Example.jpg.3da331a9a1453aff91afb080639ca96f.jpg

    I-HT lots are split between 10%/80%/10% of R$, R$$ and R$$$ workers, (10/78/12 or similar with I-HT fix). So this example of a highly developed Maxis I-HT lot, only employs in real terms say at most 11 R$$$ sims.

    CO$$$ - Hunt Enterprise Headquarters, which employs 7146 Sims.

    5fc8d1509426a_CO_Example.jpg.74c486d51617391748956cddbcde5ef7.jpg

    I deliberately took one of the largest CO$$$ buildings in-game for this example. But CO$$$ lots provide a job ratio of 10%/78%/12% (R$/R$$/R$$$). Thus this very large building, still only employs around 850 R$$$ sims.

    The idea that you can run a region with 3% R$ population, simply doesn't fit with the math here. You simply can not sustain these buildings without many R$$ and some R$ sims to work in them. Note too, I-HT and CO actually provide many more R$$ jobs than anything else. So whilst having a lot of these types of buildings, will ultimately lead to the highest possible high-wealth population, only a fraction of that population can ever be R$$$ or wealthy. Note too, you can't simply up and replace every CS job with CO ones either, in SC4 one thing leads to another. To have Stage 3 I-HT or Stage 8 CO$$$, you must have many lower stage buildings of the same time. There is a maximum proportion of each given zoning type that can be the biggest and best. Sure CAM does alter the specific figures, but still the general themes here, apply to all players.

    Your cities most likely fail and have problems with the budget, precisely because you seem unwilling to have the necessary R$ population the game was designed to work with. At it's core the way SC4 works is quite rigid, you can either work with it, mod your way free of the restrictions or take a third way... constant problems!

    To be clear, I have large I-HT demand and I do build an entire I-HT complex in a different city. But, I don't because I-HT is too sensitive to the desirability of them. I do want an utopia city, but it almost always a waste of money. So, I'll build it using your technique. Thanks for suggestion!

    BTW, thanks for the job ratio! I never thought this in my entire SC4 journey. I heard them but I don't really know until you describe it. That's why I need to double my CO$$$ job for a particular population because apparently, the jobs for R$$$ isn't enough despite the large jobs available for all.

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    42 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:


    @Naomi57 - I'm not really sure... how can an increase in capacity break the game economically? I did read about how buggy it may become in case of objects that existed prior to the modification, but you can just bulldoze them and put them back anew, right? What I'd like to try, is just a simple edit via "iLive Reader". Nothing more.

    I do not want to outright cheat and build only hydro. I'd like to be able to use a multitude of power sources while doubling their output. The problem I find annoying in SimCity series is a completely unrealistic resource capacity. It is completely unnatural for a town of 40k res. to be supplied by six coal power plants!

    Each player has their own play-style, and these things don't break the game ... just the economic balance.  Personally, I would be quite happy to build a city  with an enormous dam and install a Hydro power station on it.  The specific geography, and the massive use of real-estate for the dam, would justify the Hydro power station in my mind.  That would be a single city experiment to me, but it could be fun to do one day.

    If you mod the Coal power station to double the electricity generation, double the plop cost and monthly cost, double the number of sims working there, double the air pollution and water pollution and garbage it creates, then that would be an economically balanced mod.  Basically, you'd have the same costs and benefits just with one station instead of two ... or even one station instead of four!

    If you mod the Coal power station to make it double the electricity generation while keeping all the other stats the same, that becomes economically unbalanced.  I get the impression that most SC4 players unbalance the economics of the game with mods, or petrol tax, or road tolls, and that's okay.  It all depends on what you want out of the game.  There are many excellent reasons for doing that.

    Quote

    Another creative solution, say a Clean Coal power station, might be rated somewhere between Oil and Nuclear in stats, though possibly with all it's stats doubled or quadrupled, and that, too, would be an economically balanced mod.  I'm sure there's some power plant mods on the STEX that are economically balanced like that.

    Coaxing a positive cashflow out of each city is part of what gives me a buzz, that's one of my play-styles.  It all depends on what ways SC4 gives you a buzz.  *:kitty:  Someday, I want to produce a wilderness tourism city, and in that case tolls and income generating assets may be the approach I take.  Take a gander at these two mods to see what I mean:

    Those are two super cute "business deal" plops.  I wouldn't generally use them, but I'd very happily use them in the right city.

     

    42 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    The problem I find annoying in SimCity series is a completely unrealistic resource capacity. It is completely unnatural for a town of 40k res. to be supplied by six coal power plants!

    That's very fair, and realism can be a great motivator for making or using mods.  Mind you, it's generally industry that eats up the most power, not residential or commercial, so that may alter the number of power plants you need over time.

    My Breezy Point large city tile is a seaside township of 110 thousand sims, and has a broad mixture of all zonings/classes except Agriculture, has a Power usage of 9598 per month, and is able to supply that power with one Oil Power Plant, and one Waste to Energy Plant.  As your cities grow, you'll find that the energy/population balance shifts as you gradually develop higher density commercial, and less industrial.  Breezy Point started off mostly industrial, but it now has 44 thousand commercial jobs, and just 8 thousand industrial jobs.

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    On 03/12/2020 at 2:38 PM, chfzdn said:

    That's why I need to double my CO$$$ job for a particular population because apparently, the jobs for R$$$ isn't enough despite the large jobs available for all.

    Perhaps, but remember the given figures are the best case scenario. You can't simply decide to double your CO$$$ population as a singular goal. You need everything else required to support that happening. CO$$$ demand comes from having Industrial and other CS/CO businesses. This is an entire, delicate eco-system, that needs to remain in-balance or it will all go wrong.

    As a rough example, you need around 50-60% R$ sims, 30-40% R$$ and around 10% R$$$ for a good mix. With a split between around 50% Res / 10-40% Com / 10-40% Ind to keep everything working. There is a lot of flexibility here, especially at the Com v.s. Ind side of things. Remember too, for approx. every 2 sims, there will be 1 job, many Sims won't be working, doing things like staying at home with the kids, studying or enjoying retirement. None of this is directly simulated, but a formula is applied to account for these aspects of the real world.

    On 03/12/2020 at 2:55 PM, Naomi57 said:

    If you mod the Coal power station to make it double the electricity generation while keeping all the other stats the same, that becomes economically unbalanced.  I get the impression that most SC4 players unbalance the economics of the game with mods, or petrol tax, or road tolls, and that's okay.  It all depends on what you want out of the game.  There are many excellent reasons for doing that.

    You have to be somewhat careful here though, it's all too easy to unbalance the game along the way. The key thing to keep in mind when considering mods altering the behaviour of the game, is that you will also have to play the game differently, when using these.

    But a good example of an unintended but not always desirable unbalancing, comes from modular sets which include YIMBY properties on every piece. So you place 20 path pieces, but suddenly the combination of all those YIMBY effects are so strong, you made everything around them of High Land Value. Of course, that can sometimes be exactly what you are after, but if not, something so seemingly benign as filler lots, can soon cause you strife.

    In the specific example, doubling the power output, without adjusting the other properties is pretty much cheating. Just the kind of cheating I am more than happy to do for myself though :P, ideally as Naomi57 states, you would balance all the relevant costs/benefits, but you don't have too. There is really no potential pitfall here, provided the modded values are valid.

    On 03/12/2020 at 1:26 PM, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I'm not really sure... how can an increase in capacity break the game economically? I did read about how buggy it may become in case of objects that existed prior to the modification, but you can just bulldoze them and put them back anew, right? What I'd like to try, is just a simple edit via "iLive Reader". Nothing more.

    Sort of (highlighted text), you must remove such placed buildings, before you "install" the changed versions. This applies to almost anything which has a budget or other slider when queried. Upon placing such items, some data becomes part of the save file, this data does not get refreshed when changing the properties (modding). This upsets the calculations the game makes and causes troubles, in some cases querying such lots can instigate a CTD too.

    So if you are brining such modifications into an existing region, make sure all instances of the buildings being changed are removed, before adding the mod. Then you can safely place them anew afterwards and take advantage of the updated properties. The reverse is also true if you later want to remove such modifications.

    I too find the number of Schools, Hospitals and other Civic buildings you need for full coverage, especially a burden. But the power/water options in the game are pretty good. That's not to say I don't use some monster Power Plants from time-to-time, such as Fukushima here (bottom right):

    35598867323_7c57f3e96c_k.jpg

    This can power the entire region around it, whilst another part of the complex provides the region with water. I much prefer this kind of setup, although I've moved on to much bigger regions these days. However then you can place a couple power stations together, considering them parts of a much larger facility and if required, mod them as necessary to better support your needs.

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    Head over to my Lot and Mod Shack to keep abreast of my latest developments.

    Do you like custom textures, but don't like all the work involved creating them?, take a look at the Texture Automation options here. Change the look and feel of your transit networks, with the minimum of effort, for example customised versions of my Sidewalk NAM (SWN) and Terrain Grass NAM (TGN) mods, and much more besides.

    New to the NAM? Check out my tutorials on YouTube. Latest upload: How to: RHW - MHO Roundabout Interchanges. (Nov 25).

    p.s. - I'm MGB over on SC4D and a member of the NAM team.

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    4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

    In the specific example, doubling the power output, without adjusting the other properties is pretty much cheating.

    ......................................................................... MEH :P *:lol:

    While we're at it, where can I actually get iLive 1.4 from? I have tried to use the link provided here but there seems to be some kind of a server error...

    At the same time, it seems surprising why there is only 0.9 version listed here in Simtropolis?

    I plan to test a mod or two today. I'll try to wrestle with NAM lite this weekend. Anything to make game more realistic or enjoyable, right? *;) Though learning how to keep a sound budget was gratifying on its own!

    EDIT: Nevermind 1.4. I just read that post in detail and it seems 1.4 may cause instability. We certainly don't want that.

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    On 03/12/2020 at 5:36 PM, TheMurderousCricket said:

    At the same time, it seems surprising why there is only 0.9 version listed here in Simtropolis?

    Reader 0.9.3 as found on the STEX is an older release indeed, but as you've found about latter versions and stability, this is a primary reason 0.9.3 is still recommended. There is a renowned bug in these versions (including 1.5.4) by where saving multiple times per session can cause data file corruption. One tip to get around this is for every time of saving within the program, to close and re-open it again. I've found Reader 1.5.4 useful for UI editing, and also it can edit a few additional data properties like the NKO one. So it might be worth grabbing that, but depends what you'd like to edit really. Reader 0.9.3 is stable, and is the version myself and many other modders still depend on.

    There is also a derived tool named SC4ReaderTool which @Tropod has developed also. As of writing, the latest version is a 1.5.9 release. I think the idea with the version numbering is to develop from the original reader with additional features, and so just thought I'd mention that as well.

    In terms of very basic lot property editing, I recommend the LEProp tool as my post here touched on.

     

    On 03/12/2020 at 5:36 PM, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I'll try to wrestle with NAM lite this weekend. Anything to make game more realistic or enjoyable, right? *;) 

    Sounds great, and absolutely! *:yes:

    As @rsc204 said earlier, just to clarify how the "Lite" version of the NAM is still a prospective future release sometime. As of today (now updated on the STEX), the latest is the NAM 39 release, and previous versions are no longer available nor supported.

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    9 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    Best call on our internationally acclaimed farming expert, @CorinaMarie, if you've a few minutes you can spare to share your wisdom?

    Robin beat me to it:

     

    9 hours ago, rsc204 said:

    If your sims are mostly educated or you have a decent industrial base that is not farming (I-AG), then new farms tend not to grow. Likewise, eventually you'll loose all demand for farms, which were only intended to be used to get your region going, as a non-polluting alternative to I-D.

    ^ This sums it up well.

    Basically, to have a nice agrarian base it needs to be created first in any city tiles where that is the goal.

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    On 12/1/2020 at 1:29 PM, rsc204 said:

    The simple answer here is, don't over-stretch your finances, especially when starting out. Only build things you can afford in-budget, where a monthly cost is attached. Sims only need Power and Roads, everything else is optional but comes with a cost. Reduce the radius capacity of any Civic Buildings which aren't being fully utilised, which makes them more cost effective to use. Remember, all the nice things are there to encourage a better type of growth like higher wealth sims/com/ind, but none of that will happen right away. Much better to build a city out and get a really good tax base, then when you've more wiggle-room you can try to attract bigger and better buildings.

    I learned about budgeting issues from an SPI wargame, "Conquistador," where you are one of the four colonial European powers taking over and exploring the New World. There are a lot of ways to strike it rich through gold mines and resources, but you have a thin trickle of colonists to do so, and vast tax burdens in maintaining your fleet, armies, and sending ships to the New World.

    The solution is to start small and not overreach -- in both games. Set up a small area and then consolidate what you've got, until you are operating in the black. Then gradually expand.

    It also helps to set up in a corner, so you can build links to other, unbuilt, cities, in the region, for later growth. Saves money.

     

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    Kiwiwriter

    aka Dave Lippman

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    If you Guys don't mind, I'd like to continue my ramblings. *:D

    One of the issues I somewhat struggle to understand is the value of the low-wealth Sims in the game.

    I do respect their role and importance. After all, without the working class, there would be no workers in the wealthy Sims' factories and companies. Even worse, the rich Sims would have nobody around to mow their lawns or sell their favorite cognacs... Still, I find it hard to come to terms with the low-wealth Sims for two main reasons...

    Firstly, many of the buildings that low-wealth Sims construct are just plain ugly... They just don't look well. Except for some higher density buildings from the European set, which are actually nice.

    Secondly, for economic reasons, I find middle and wealthy Sims to be far more efficient as far as the tax revenue is concerned. I have noticed that it takes (a very loose estimate), say, 100 low-wealth Sims to generate the same amount of tax that could be collected from just 20 wealthy Sims. The economy has spoken...

    However, I understand that having an all-luxury city would not be very realistic. There is a reason why they call them "one-percenters". But still...

    With that being said, my confusion and "overwhelmence" takes yet another twist. *:lol: Which makes me ask - which is the preferred way of managing the three Simly wealth classes:

    1. Being an elitist and opening the city up to the affluent jerks wealthy citizens exclusively?
    2. Striking a balance between all classes so that there is a healthy blue-collar and cash-cow base at the same time?
    3. Expelling mid and high-wealth Sims from the city altogether, creating a Marxist paradise?

    Any help/explanation, highly appreciated!

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    All three, but in different city squares.

    All three strategies have value, but the expulsion of the poorer elements is effectively a bad idea. Com and Ind buildings all have a number of jobs sliced according to that buildings percentages (eg: a factory might have 200 jobs, of which 5 are $$$ executive positions, 10 are $$ jobs which are team leader/ line manager types and the rest (185) are low skill/low pay $ workers). This split also needs to be reflected in the overall region's population numbers or you will find mass abandonment in your Com and Ind areas simpy because there's no workforce for the $$$ and $$ to boss around.

    @CorinaMarie has done some work towards stopping R$ upgrading to R$$ and R$$$. This is sorta working the problem from the other end, by intentionally keeping the poorer elements, city growth doesn't hit that Boom/Bust dynamic that screws up so many cities.

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    Diese Stadt ist voll von Albert Einsteins. Es werden keine Landwirte oder Arbeiter benötigt. Nur High Industrie:

    1.jpg.682cdab498ee741c4b3be7a0c87c1f50.jpg

    * E *

    Stux habe ich eingestellt. In jeder Stadt gleich.

    Stux fließen:

    2.jpg.d4dca033416670e11b43fa749ec2d456.jpg

    ... aber der IQ wird nicht erwachsen. Wundern, warum. Aber ich bin mir sicher, ich kann so schnell wie möglich damit umgehen:

    3.jpg.811a8f863f8208b3460e8b4271460d8c.jpg

    * E *

    Diese Stux sind die gleichen wie in jeder Stadt:

    4.jpg.487faecbc56eec5922bcc8f3b77a6b12.jpg

     

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    <<< German , so excuse my English. I forgot the most over the Years. Sad, if you cant spell a Language every Day.

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    @City_Slider, that sunken highway of yours in the first picture is absolutely beautiful, and is inspiring to me.

    To offer a translation, courtesy of https://www.google.com/search?q=google+translate ... with my comments afterward.

    5 hours ago, City_Slider said:

    Diese Stadt ist voll von Albert Einsteins. Es werden keine Landwirte oder Arbeiter benötigt. Nur High Industrie:
    This city is full of Albert Einstein's. No farmers or workers are needed. High Industry only:

    1.jpg.682cdab498ee741c4b3be7a0c87c1f50.jpg

    * E *

    Stux habe ich eingestellt. In jeder Stadt gleich.
    I hired Stux. The same in every city.

    Stux fließen:
    Stux flow

    2.jpg.d4dca033416670e11b43fa749ec2d456.jpg

    ... aber der IQ wird nicht erwachsen. Wundern, warum. Aber ich bin mir sicher, ich kann so schnell wie möglich damit umgehen:
    ... but the IQ won't grow up. Wonder why. But I'm sure I can deal with it asap:

    3.jpg.811a8f863f8208b3460e8b4271460d8c.jpg

    * E *

    Diese Stux sind die gleichen wie in jeder Stadt:
    These stux are the same as in any city:

    4.jpg.487faecbc56eec5922bcc8f3b77a6b12.jpg

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Wonderfully fine tuned tax levels, there, @City_Slider.  I do a similar thing, almost banning certain classes using 20% tax, and gently pushing other classes to move out (or not grow), using tax rates between 9% and 15%, and encouraging other classes to grow using tax rates 4% to 9%.

    I particularly appreciate your 15% Manufacturing Industry (I-M) tax, which puts high pressure on existing factories to sell out to High Tech (I-HT), while not being so high that they are likely to just become an abandoned building.

    Your fluctuating Education (IQ/EQ) levels probably relate to new housing development, or higher density housing.  Each new influx of new sim population comes with a low standard of Education, and a low standard of Health, so these migrant workers bring down the city-wide average Education and Health, until they live in our city long enough to become educated and healthy ... and wealthy.  *;)

    That's one of the reasons why a stable economy is so important, because if sims move out of our city, and then new sims move into our city a few years later, they have to start all over again with low Education and low Health.  Certain sims moving out and moving back in was a problem I troubleshooted back in April this year ... fortunately only with R$ low wealth sims this time.

    https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/757812-selective-residential-revamping/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-1728081

    Jamaica Bay - R$ District (Jobs & Pop).jpg

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    10 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    One of the issues I somewhat struggle to understand is the value of the low-wealth Sims in the game.

    I do respect their role and importance. After all, without the working class, there would be no workers in the wealthy Sims' factories and companies. Even worse, the rich Sims would have nobody around to mow their lawns or sell their favorite cognacs... Still, I find it hard to come to terms with the low-wealth Sims for two main reasons...

    A balanced regional economy across all 10 classes is the most stable economy.  I get the impression the game was designed that way, with Agriculture and Dirty Industry being the easiest to eliminate, if you prefer not to have them.  As @City_Slider demonstrated, you can make a vanilla SimCity 4 economy work with a smaller subset of class/sectors, but it's a tad bit more delicate.

    The thing I value most about R$ sims, is that they bring quick and easy high traffic levels to my roads and light rail, which is key to C$$ and C$$$ success.  More on that below.

    10 hours ago, Whte_rbt said:

    All three, but in different city squares.

    All three strategies have value, but the expulsion of the poorer elements is effectively a bad idea. Com and Ind buildings all have a number of jobs sliced according to that buildings percentages (eg: a factory might have 200 jobs, of which 5 are $$$ executive positions, 10 are $$ jobs which are team leader/ line manager types and the rest (185) are low skill/low pay $ workers). This split also needs to be reflected in the overall region's population numbers or you will find mass abandonment in your Com and Ind areas simpy because there's no workforce for the $$$ and $$ to boss around.

    I agree with @Whte_rbt here, Com and Ind buildings that cannot hire all the sims they need, causes the game economy to stagnate, or at least slow down.  In the real-world, these businesses would fail, or move to another city where they can hire the "human resources" they need to succeed.  In SimCity 4, these businesses are allowed to hire Oompa-Loompas to keep the cogs turning, if they can't find sim employees.  I call them "Oompa-Loompas", but you can imagine these phantom workers in a different way if you like.

    The actual game mathematics behind the economic stagnation, probably has to do with Demand drivers, which is separate to Demand Caps.  I confess I only know this in broad terms from playing and experimenting and observing, whereas some modders here can explain what goes on under the hood.

    Where I differ from @Whte_rbt, is that I generally prefer to have all these different classes in different neighbourhoods of one 256x256 large city, but sometimes I use @Whte_rbt's approach, too, putting the "undesirables" in a neighbouring city, especially when that involves a different density of population, or a different strategy on pollution, education, policing, or tax.  Sometimes they are not so much "undesirable" as simply not what I want for the city I'm working on.  e.g. An idyllic Agricultural neighbour city is desirable in a different way to my high rise Commercial paradise made of concrete and glass.  *:P

    "They paved paradise and put up a parking lot
    With a pink hotel, a boutique, and a swingin' hot spot"

    — Joni Mitchell, lyrics from Big Yellow Taxi

    10 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    With that being said, my confusion and "overwhelmence" takes yet another twist. *:lol: Which makes me ask - which is the preferred way of managing the three Simly wealth classes:

    1. Being an elitist and opening the city up to the affluent jerks wealthy citizens exclusively?
    2. Striking a balance between all classes so that there is a healthy blue-collar and cash-cow base at the same time?
    3. Expelling mid and high-wealth Sims from the city altogether, creating a Marxist paradise?

    Certain classes/sectors like to be neighbours to certain other classes, like companion planting in permaculture.  :ooh:  Here's one example of companion planting of different classes and sectors that I use in a 128x128 medium city or 256x256 large city:

    1.  Dirty Industry «» Power «» Water Treatment «» Manufacturing «» NIMBY «» R$ «» C$ «» C$$ «» YIMBY «» C$$$ «» R$$ «» High Tech «» R$$$

    5fc9dc1fd6bb0_PowerwaterbufferforI-DandRplan.png.38b8375e7478ee0dd4b2b6dd542ec84f.png

    • R$$$ is happiest away from the bustle, but fast commute to a cushy management or office job, and close to schools and hospitals ... is that hard to please, or what!  *:lol:
    • High Tech is happiest on the outskirts of rich R$$ and R$$$ neighbourhoods, away from bustle, but a short commute.
    • Commercial office (CO) workers will commute further than industrial workers do.
    • C$$ and C$$$ need, ABSOLUTELY NEED, high traffic levels on adjacent tiles, road traffic or light rail traffic (subway or heavy rail traffic doesn't count).  Commercial zones without traffic languish and even abandon.

    There is a feel of neighbourhood shift across each companion planting of sectors / classes / civics, which I enjoy myself, but everyone gets a buzz out of different elements of the game.  There are other variations on the above companion planting strategy, or you can use a subset of those classes/sectors.

    10 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Firstly, many of the buildings that low-wealth Sims construct are just plain ugly... They just don't look well. Except for some higher density buildings from the European set, which are actually nice.

    The STEX and LEX are the customary solutions for that.  *:yes:

    From my reading (though this is outside my personal experience), it's best to steer clear of growable lots that upset the economic balance, because weird growables can do weird things to your game.  Some are carefully designed to do some wonderful weird things to the game mechanics, but you want growable lots that are either well designed by a knowledgeable modder, or else reflect statistics that are common in vanilla game ... with a facelift.  *:ohyes:

    Here's a couple R$ housing lots I've shortlisted to download someday, but there's many more.

    https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2092
    NYC Housing Projects Set 3

    https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=719
    CSX Housing 6x6 - Mamelodi 

    In the vanilla game, you can control building styles and timing, which @CorinaMarie covers so well in this tutorial.  The entire thread makes very interesting reading.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    10 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Secondly, for economic reasons, I find middle and wealthy Sims to be far more efficient as far as the tax revenue is concerned. I have noticed that it takes (a very loose estimate), say, 100 low-wealth Sims to generate the same amount of tax that could be collected from just 20 wealthy Sims. The economy has spoken...

    With well-chosen high density R$ tenements, the low wealth sims are far more efficient as far as real-estate usage is concerned, packing more sims into a 3x4 plot, and at an earlier game stage, than any other class/sector.

    R$ sims don't mind a bit of pollution and NIMBY, making them perfect neighbours for factories or farms, landfill and army bases, missile stations or federal prisons.  *:P 

    And, the neighbourhood doesn't have to be yucky.  Here's my biggest R$ neighbourhood in it's early stages, in a city that is primarily elitist, C$$ and C$$$ commercial, with R$$ and R$$$ employees.  This high density R$ low wealth neighbourhood provides blue-collar consumer dollars (the road traffic and light rail traffic) to stimulate a corner of my city that would otherwise be too quiet and stagnant, economically.  After it grew, I flagged the 7 tenements as "Historical" to lock them in as R$, and then set about to beautify the borders and surrounding districts.

    5e85f86d571a6_JamaicaBay-RDistrict.jpg.41848c9b46ffbcf425af7cff0074373b.jpg

    10 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    However, I understand that having an all-luxury city would not be very realistic.

    Contrast is a powerful artistic tool.  You can see the edge of that same R$ tenement neighbourhood in this screenshot, after I'd further developed and decorated.  A bit of grittiness assists with a sense of realism and neighbourhood definition.

    Jamaica Bay - Cloverleaf.jpg

     

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    Heeey, thanks for the fantastic, elaborate input @Naomi57*:ohyes: And for the translation too. Contrary to the popular belief, not everybody speaks German... :uhm:

    5 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    The thing I value most about R$ sims, is that they bring quick and easy high traffic levels to my roads and light rail, which is key to C$$ and C$$$ success.

    Indeed, I haven't thought of that. I had that traffic bit in mind but only in general terms. I did not think about one of the classes being especially helpful in this respect. This, however, is more true of large cities where you actually want these large buildings to rise. In my current region, I do not need them really.

    $R Sims are ugly, C$$$ Sims are undesirable.

    Yeah, I know - I am such an annoying, whiny jerk. *:kitty:

    5 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    Certain classes/sectors like to be neighbours to certain other classes, like companion planting in permaculture.  :ooh: 

    I like the comparison. I do it as well - sometimes in a more planned way, sometimes inadvertently. But in all truth, I simply can't force myself to locate my Sims, even the poorer ones, close to dirty industry or NIMBY buildings. Which some people advocate to do. Nobody deserves to live in such conditions. :dead:

    5 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    With well-chosen high density R$ tenements, the low wealth sims are far more efficient as far as real-estate usage is concerned, packing more sims into a 3x4 plot, and at an earlier game stage, than any other class/sector.

    I have yet to see this. :meh: In my current agrarian region (I tip my hat @CorinaMarie) there are three towns, each having about 75% R$ population and they are "just getting by" with a positive monthly income, oscillating between 50 - 200 Simoleons. I guess it simply must be harder for a small town to get a "bang for buck" economy.

    This, however, is getting prohibitively expensive once you go and try to beautify such a town. :O This is why I asked how to attach a float cost to some amenities in that other thread, just to make them more affordable for a village that is supposed to be small and pretty.

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    6 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    By the way, there is one more thing that I always fume over in SimCity series, which is...

    Heavy Americanization of the city architecture.

    No, seriously - I find it more or less discriminating and offensive. This is well evidenced in the vanilla game which has four building styles, three of which are from the US. :angry: I turn them all off and only leave the European set on...

    I find this "leaning US" policy to be utterly ridiculous... Given how soulless and depressing some of the American cities are. This is not my opinion. I just happen to know some urban architects who told so. They specifically mention the title "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" which is a blunt critique of urban concepts in the US.

    In any case, it all begs a question - what about Asian set? Balkan set? Middle-Eastern set? Nice job Maxis.

    Rant mode - off...

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    2 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    In any case, it all begs a question - what about Asian set? Balkan set? Middle-Eastern set?

    Building styles do depend very much on personal preference, and I think it's worth us remembering how Maxis were based in the US state of California, and so they'd have been inspired by local architecture and also that of the wider styles as based on the American orientated tilesets.

    The great thing though is custom content changes everything to our own individual tastes. We don't all have to admire certain architectural styles, and that's where choice comes in. Some people have made CJs of certain European, Middle Eastern, African, or Asian countries, and in this way it might be of interest for blocking all Maxis items except the European tileset. Take a look through the City Journals section for some inspiration for what can be done, because there is so much variety possible.

    Then add custom BATs and slowly build up your plugins folder around the theme you'd prefer. Of course, there are those of us (like me) who are completely happy with the American style. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and so we can each decide what we'd like to see in our cities.

    This is where SC4 is truly a limitless platform of creativity to express our own imaginative interests. *;)

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    Also worthy of note, if you want to sell the most # of copies of a game, it pretty much has to be Americanised, because your largest consumer base, will be America. It’s why GTA never gets set outside of the US, because Rockstar did marketing research that told them most US players, are only interested in US themes.

    Again, the good news is with persistence, it’s possible to find enough content to make scenes of just about any part of the world. One of the great things about the longevity of SC4 modding, is the choice of styles we now have to choose from. 

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    Head over to my Lot and Mod Shack to keep abreast of my latest developments.

    Do you like custom textures, but don't like all the work involved creating them?, take a look at the Texture Automation options here. Change the look and feel of your transit networks, with the minimum of effort, for example customised versions of my Sidewalk NAM (SWN) and Terrain Grass NAM (TGN) mods, and much more besides.

    New to the NAM? Check out my tutorials on YouTube. Latest upload: How to: RHW - MHO Roundabout Interchanges. (Nov 25).

    p.s. - I'm MGB over on SC4D and a member of the NAM team.

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    1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

    Also worthy of note, if you want to sell the most # of copies of a game, it pretty much has to be Americanised, because your largest consumer base, will be America.

    I cannot agree with this at all. Consider the success of "The Witcher", "Arma" or "Far Cry" series to name a few. North America, virtually or IRL, is seriously not the only continent in the World.

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    27 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

    It’s why GTA never gets set outside of the US,

    True, but the Scottish lads on the dev team managed to squeeze in bits n pieces from home. Namely the Forth Road & Rail Bridges exiting San Fierro to the East and the names of some of the areas in each city are lifted from places near me.

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    4 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    North America, virtually or IRL, is seriously not the only continent in the World.

    /me checks a map, does a quick count, and agrees there are other continents too.

    On the topic of the game content: It is what it is and as other peeps have mentioned, CC is there to make up for the lack of other building styles. *;)

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    1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

    On the topic of the game content: It is what it is and as other peeps have mentioned, CC is there to make up for the lack of other building styles. *;)

    Thankfully. *;)

    I have a really lazy day today (must be Friday, amplified by the X-mas time) and I started browsing through the BATs. There are some German and Dutch-themed buildings I like a lot. Might consider them starters of a nice collection.

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    1 hour ago, Whte_rbt said:

    True, but the Scottish lads on the dev team managed to squeeze in bits n pieces from home. Namely the Forth Road & Rail Bridges exiting San Fierro to the East and the names of some of the areas in each city are lifted from places near me.

    Yes and I think there are also a lot of Scottish references on the GTA5 map. At least this is what I heard. Sadly, I am not too familiar with Scottish cities so I couldn't tell. *:(

    Hehe, it would be great to play GTA in the cities that we all create here. "SC4 to GTA Converter Tool", come on modders, roll up your sleeves! *:lol:

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    Oh god, theres a thought, an opensource GTA clone using SC4 maps to generate from. Would need custom mission scripts per map. Eeeep. I'd get lost forever.

    I don't have that kind of time on my hands. I lose enough time going back for random replays of San Andreas.

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    Well, if you search at the www, there are a lot of Filies out, to Built specific Citys. Like Netherland Files, Paris Sets or Hong Kong. There are a loooooot out ^^

    Greetings, Dirk

    *Editmeans* Examples...

    Paris Set: http://www.simcityplaza.de/index.php/whi-gebaeude/paris-set

    Hong Kong Set: http://www.simcityplaza.de/index.php/whi-gebaeude/hong-kong-set

    Lot of Stuff 2 DL ;) Go 4 it.

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    <<< German , so excuse my English. I forgot the most over the Years. Sad, if you cant spell a Language every Day.

    Feel free to ask away, i´ll answer any Questions you are asking for. But you must be warned, i bite ;-)

    URL: https://simforum.de/index.php?forums/18/

    Oliver

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    Okay, now I'm really disappointed... :(

    @Naomi57, you said that the low-wealth Sims are the most efficient in terms of the tax revenue. Well, consider the attached images;

    taxes.JPG.cf70a62d299d39e943fe7febf4fff8fe.JPG      pop_numbers.JPG.c47491a529bfc616f00db383d5caac64.JPG

    These stats clearly contradict the claim that "power is in numbers". As you can see here, there are twice as many low-wealth Sims in this city. Yet, they pay just a fraction of what wealthy Sims toss into the town's coffers.

    This has actually been the case in SC3000 as well - the richer taxpayers you had, the more revenue you got.


    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    6 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    you said that the low-wealth Sims are the most efficient in terms of the tax revenue.

    I think you've misunderstood what Naomi meant here.

    Per Sim R$ has the lowest revenue of the three, however R$ are easy to get, don't require any services and offers very high density.

    Because of this you can establish a significant tax base of R$, while providing enough traffic to kickstart your COM demand.

    Without developing the surrounding region, trying to develop significant R$$ won't bring you as much income as focusing on R$ instead.



    Edit:

    I've included a screenshot of one of my current cities, it covers a bit more than a medium square.
    It's the first one I set up in the region, and was grown to be primarily R$

    You can see the budget and tax break down.
    The ~34,000 R$ sims taxes cover ~60% of the city expensenses.  Residential is zoned roughly 90% low density, 10% medium.

    R$$ pay base rate double per sim, letting my 2600 R$$ sims pay out a nice 718, nearly a fifth what the 13 times as many R$ do.
    But to get those R$$ I had to build services infrastructure that run thousands a month, wiping out my gains. I'll need another 7500 R$$ sims to break even.

    The R$ population pays for this and lets the city function and build it's coffers while letting me shape the city to how I want it to grow.
    5fd435359e44c_Cityincome.jpg.ec0d0323e80c92a72267f0d08d5cc366.jpg

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    4 hours ago, Matrim Cauthon said:

    R$ are easy to get, don't require any services and offers very high density.

    ^ This. *:yes:

    Sample:

    7010-7633.jpg

    ^ In this particular city tile nearly all of the low wealth Sims commute out of town, but could easily be in the same city tile where everything else is being developed. Ofc, you should either mark those as historical or use NKO so they don't get replaced with higher wealth residential once good health care and education are provided.

    In my example, I have oodles of regional demand for R$ Sims via farms and the same principle works for other industrial and commercial development because the majority of jobs offered are for low wealth Sims.

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    On 3/12/2020 at 9:35 PM, rsc204 said:

    Perhaps, but remember the given figures are the best case scenario. You can't simply decide to double your CO$$$ population as a singular goal. You need everything else required to support that happening. CO$$$ demand comes from having Industrial and other CS/CO businesses. This is an entire, delicate eco-system, that needs to remain in-balance or it will all go wrong.

    As a rough example, you need around 50-60% R$ sims, 30-40% R$$ and around 10% R$$$ for a good mix. With a split between around 50% Res / 10-40% Com / 10-40% Ind to keep everything working. There is a lot of flexibility here, especially at the Com v.s. Ind side of things. Remember too, for approx. every 2 sims, there will be 1 job, many Sims won't be working, doing things like staying at home with the kids, studying or enjoying retirement. None of this is directly simulated, but a formula is applied to account for these aspects of the real world.

    You have to be somewhat careful here though, it's all too easy to unbalance the game along the way. The key thing to keep in mind when considering mods altering the behaviour of the game, is that you will also have to play the game differently, when using these.

    But a good example of an unintended but not always desirable unbalancing, comes from modular sets which include YIMBY properties on every piece. So you place 20 path pieces, but suddenly the combination of all those YIMBY effects are so strong, you made everything around them of High Land Value. Of course, that can sometimes be exactly what you are after, but if not, something so seemingly benign as filler lots, can soon cause you strife.

    In the specific example, doubling the power output, without adjusting the other properties is pretty much cheating. Just the kind of cheating I am more than happy to do for myself though :P, ideally as Naomi57 states, you would balance all the relevant costs/benefits, but you don't have too. There is really no potential pitfall here, provided the modded values are valid.

    Sort of (highlighted text), you must remove such placed buildings, before you "install" the changed versions. This applies to almost anything which has a budget or other slider when queried. Upon placing such items, some data becomes part of the save file, this data does not get refreshed when changing the properties (modding). This upsets the calculations the game makes and causes troubles, in some cases querying such lots can instigate a CTD too.

    So if you are brining such modifications into an existing region, make sure all instances of the buildings being changed are removed, before adding the mod. Then you can safely place them anew afterwards and take advantage of the updated properties. The reverse is also true if you later want to remove such modifications.

    I too find the number of Schools, Hospitals and other Civic buildings you need for full coverage, especially a burden. But the power/water options in the game are pretty good. That's not to say I don't use some monster Power Plants from time-to-time, such as Fukushima here (bottom right):

    35598867323_7c57f3e96c_k.jpg

    This can power the entire region around it, whilst another part of the complex provides the region with water. I much prefer this kind of setup, although I've moved on to much bigger regions these days. However then you can place a couple power stations together, considering them parts of a much larger facility and if required, mod them as necessary to better support your needs.

    How about if I have 100% or similar percentage of R$$? Since R$$ is the largest group of employment by CO$$$ and I-HT?

    I found out that CS$$$ employs 8% of R$$$. There's no employer in SC4 that employs almost exclusively $$$. It looks like Maxis thinks that $$$ are managers and directors only, with some experts. But, I think businesses that requires $$$ in majority does exist, in smaller scale ofc than Walmart, for instance: high-end painter, ultra-high-end furnitures maker etc.

    It looks like the floorage requirement of CO$$$ only filled by R$$$ is 214,4666666667 m2, which explains why it needs 2-3x CO$$$ jobs in order to shut up R$$$ for unabandonment. It also mean that CO$$$ filled by just R$$$ is less efficient than for-R$$-and-R$$$-workers CS$$$ which stands for 100 m2.

    Disclaimer: all of this figure is taken from CAM's Census Drive topic on Devotion. So if doesn't apply to vanilla game, that's why.

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    But we still need your support to stay online. If you're able to, please consider a donation to help us stay up and running. This helps sustain a platform where we can share our community creations for years to come.

    Make a Donation, Get a Gift!

    Expand your city with the best from the Simtropolis Exchange.
    Make a Donation and get one or all three discs today!

    STEX Collections

    By way of a "Thank You" gift, we'd like to send you our STEX Collector's DVD. It's some of the best buildings, lots, maps and mods collected for you over the years. Check out the STEX Collections for more info.

    Each donation helps keep Simtropolis online, open and free!

    Thank you for reading and enjoy the site!

    More About STEX Collections