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Tracts and High Customers

Okay, curiouser and curiouser.  Ignore this post, unless you want to dig deeper into tracts and Customers.  This will be way too much information about game mechanics for some of the people following this thread!  :yawn:*:kitty:

On 03/01/2021 at 5:36 AM, Naomi57 said:
On 03/01/2021 at 5:02 AM, TheMurderousCricket said:

what2.JPG.8ce41d2015a2506896d3fd2dda783970.JPG

3000 vehicles pass this commercial center each day and they suffer from the lack of customers?!!

That's a large lot, 6x6 is that right?

For large commercial lots like that, you need to surround them with traffic on 2, 3 or even 4 sides.  You'd be pretty lucky to get High customers with traffic on just one side.  You'll likely get better results there with a series of 2x3 lots along that road.  3x4 lots might work, but even that would be iffy.  The smaller the lot, the closer the centre of that lot is to the road in question.

Yes, my investigations this morning seem to indicate that each lot might indeed have a tile which represents the "center of that lot".  *:bunny:

On 03/01/2021 at 5:43 AM, Matrim Cauthon said:

Is this happening because "noise" aka customers only extends 3 tiles from its source network?

So a 6x6 with traffic on only one side will have half the lot with no customers, averaging out the lot to "low".
2 sides will cover 3/4 the lot, and you need at least 3 sides to fully cover it.
And 4 sides will help increase the overall customer count further, because the noise fields overlap at corners?

Given my further investigations today into that "weird case near one of my lazy sunken highways in Breezy Point", it appears that the bulk of the traffic noise (aka Customers) penetrates 1, 2, 3 or 4 tiles, depending upon the position of the tract, and on the position of the Query info cell near the centre of the lot.

( yes, the colour coding will come clear soon! *;) )

On 03/01/2021 at 12:11 PM, chfzdn said:

What about 4x8 lots? Or even larger lots like 12x12? Or, 20x20? Especially the limit of lot size is 64x64.

If you dig into the exact details of tract position, and lot centre tile, then there might be a way to control which side an 8x8 commercial lot collects it's traffic noise (aka Customers) from.  Extremely tricky thing to accomplish, and this is an educated guess on my part ... I will surely dig some more one day to confirm.  *:ducky:

2x3 and 4x3 lots are a much safer bet for collecting High Customers from the traffic noise.  3x4 lots are not such a safe bet.  I'm rather sure now that commercial lots at 6x6 or 8x8 sizes are more likely to go wrong than right!

On 03/01/2021 at 7:13 AM, CorinaMarie said:

keep in mind the game data is stored in a tract based matrix and those tracts are blocks of 4 x 4 cells of a city tile which are defined from the upper left corner. So, you could have high traffic in one tract and this barely affects an adjacent tract. That's why some things which seem obvious visually aren't really because of how the hidden game mechanics work.

Yes, it appears that is exactly what is happening.  *:yes:

On 03/01/2021 at 3:00 PM, CorinaMarie said:

My guess is that as long as some part of the building is in the same tract as a network with high traffic, it'll be fine.

In this "weird case near one of my lazy sunken highways in Breezy Point" which I screenshotted, there's a different adjacency thing happening, a particular Query info cell close to the centre of the lot, which is where traffic noise is converted into Customers.

On 03/01/2021 at 4:03 PM, Naomi57 said:

Thank you, Cori.  Yes, my description of "adjacent traffic" is a slight oversimplification, to avoid talking about tracts, because:

  1. Tracts make the conversation more difficult.
  2. I haven't dug in to how the tracts work yet.
  3. The "adjacent traffic" rule of thumb generally works.
  4. I don't like keeping track of tracts.  *:lol:

For the first time in my SC4 career, I started "keeping track of tracts".  Uh-oh, I might find I can't stop now!  *:bunny:

I amended this northward facing screenshot of the "weird case near one of my lazy sunken highways in Breezy Point", to show the 4x4 tract framed in yellow, and to show the co-ordinates of each lot as reported by  Query.txt , in yellow text, with that particular Query info cell framed in orange.

Breezy Point Sunken Highway Customers (z900 annotated).jpg

If I'm reading this right:

  • The framed tract is noisy (High Customers) because one corner of it is adjacent to my short stretch of lazy sunken highway.
  • The 2x3 lot (1) is noisy because it's Query info cell  (44, 189)  is inside the noisy tract.  No surprise.   
  • The 3x4 lot (2) is noisy because it's Query info cell  (41, 189)  is inside the noisy tract.  Big surprise!  This distant lot and tract conjunction with traffic noise doesn't happen very often by accident ... 4 tiles from the source of the traffic noise is an outside case.
  • The 3x4 lot was quiet (Low Customers), when it was zoned smaller, because it's old Query info cell  of  (40, 189)  would have been outside the noisy tract.

By comparison, the lot coordinates  Lot: (39, 188)  and  Lot: (43, 190) (see below) seem to make no difference at all.  I get a distinct impression, that the extreme difference of Low Customers to High Customers on the 3x4 lot (before vs after rezoning one tile closer), means that conversion of traffic noise to High Customers occurs in it's 1x1 Query info cell  (41, 189).

See excerpt of  Query.txt  (below) to see what I'm seeing.

Quote

Query.txt

|-----------------------------------------------------------
| Query info for cell (41, 189) on 3/6/2121
|-----------------------------------------------------------
| Lot: (39, 188) 3x4, west-facing, state: occupied new, configuration: CS$$8_3x4_60003e80
| Jobs $350.9 $$139.3 $$$25.8 - Travel Jobs $351 $$139 $$$26
| Building: CS$$40x54_7ChiCinema_0526, 552 $$
| Occupancy--building (tract): Cs$ 0% (0%), Cs$$ 93% (100%), 
...
|-----------------------------------------------------------
| Query info for cell (44, 189) on 3/6/2121
|-----------------------------------------------------------
| Lot: (43, 190) 2x3, south-facing, state: occupied new, configuration: CO$$$4_2x3_60001c50
| Jobs $11.8 $$38.3 $$$8.8 - Travel Jobs $12 $$38 $$$9
| Building: CO$$$24x24_1NYOfficeBldg4_0546, 61 $$$
| Occupancy--building (tract): Co$$ 0% (0%), Co$$$ 97% (100%), 
...

 

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    This time, I am not overwhelmed. My health system is. *;)

    I have two clinics and three large med centers in the city. They cover residential areas (because, apparently, Sims are immortal when at work or shopping *:P) but simply can't handle the amount of patients they have to deal with.

    I also have a (fairly useless) disease res. center. It has tremendous capacity but, for some reason, there are only about 4500 Sims choosing this facility. It is located in the middle of the densest residential area but still...

    Do you have any idea how I could tidy up my health system and take the burden off my hospitals? All funding is maxed-out and I still have at least one of the facilities striking at any given time. >.<

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    35 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    This time, I am not overwhelmed. My health system is. *;)

    I have two clinics and three large med centers in the city. They cover residential areas (because, apparently, Sims are immortal when at work or shopping *:P) but simply can't handle the amount of patients they have to deal with.

    I also have a (fairly useless) disease res. center. It has tremendous capacity but, for some reason, there are only about 4500 Sims choosing this facility. It is located in the middle of the densest residential area but still...

    Do you have any idea how I could tidy up my health system and take the burden off my hospitals? All funding is maxed-out and I still have at least one of the facilities striking at any given time. >.<

    I guess that when Sims get sick in the Food Court or are injured in the workplace, they are taken to the hospital near their homes.

    How's the health funding? What are the radii of the hospitals and med centers?

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    1 hour ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I also have a (fairly useless) disease res. center. It has tremendous capacity but, for some reason, there are only about 4500 Sims choosing this facility. It is located in the middle of the densest residential area but still...

    The DRC isn't really a hospital, but more of a incremental health boost for the city. I'm honestly uncertain of the mechanics behind patient share keeping it's usage low, but it only provides 3.2 health points, compared to the 11.5 of hospitals/clinics. This is essentially enough to halt heath degradation without really increasing it, unless it's alongside full facilities.

     

    1 hour ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I have two clinics and three large med centers in the city. They cover residential areas (because, apparently, Sims are immortal when at work or shopping *:P) but simply can't handle the amount of patients they have to deal with.

    [...]

    Do you have any idea how I could tidy up my health system and take the burden off my hospitals? All funding is maxed-out and I still have at least one of the facilities striking at any given time. >.<

    Really the answer is to add more. Try to have moderate overlap so some area's have a shared burden.

    Some of the custom hospitals can work really well for this too. For dense or urban areas I like to use Mattb's PWN London. It's 2x2 footprint midrise works just about anywhere and has decent stats without being cheaty.

     

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    2 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    This time, I am not overwhelmed. My health system is. *;)

    I have two clinics and three large med centers in the city. They cover residential areas (because, apparently, Sims are immortal when at work or shopping *:P) but simply can't handle the amount of patients they have to deal with.
    ...
    Do you have any idea how I could tidy up my health system and take the burden off my hospitals? All funding is maxed-out and I still have at least one of the facilities striking at any given time. >.<

    Yea, I remember going through that stage of my gameplay, too.  :O*:D

    First off, use this tip (if you're not using it already), to review budgets of all your health buildings in one place ...  *:idea:

    That's the master list of all my hospitals (so far) in Brownsville.

    Notice that my Ambulance Funding is ZERO for every single hospital.  Ambulance funding is simply a way of paying more for an increased coverage radius.  Ambulances, just like School Buses, are not essential, it's an optional extra.  Ambulances are an optional extra that I frequently don't use.

    The problem, is that a wider coverage radius means more patients inside that radius, leading to the problem you've got ... too many patients.

    The little 1x2 clinics are usually another problem.  They don't balance patients very well with hospitals, unless their coverage circles are positioned very carefully.  Bulldozing those two clinics might solve half of your strikes.  I usually use these little clinics for isolated pocket neighbourhoods (see below) ... that's half the residential pocket, right there, with the little clinic on the right side.  This is a sweet little residential corner of Breezy Point, squeezed between two commercial neighbourhoods and the sea.  Even so, the clinic is really, really busy.  Little clinics do not survive well in larger residential areas, and these 1x2 little clinics do not play well with the 3x4 hospitals, strange as that might seem.

    Breezy Point SAM-6.jpg

    For each residential neighbourhood, you need to choose to use either 1x2 clinics, or 3x4 hospitals, not a mixture.  Attempting to use a mixture is very tricky to balance out, and usually leads to trouble.

    2 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I also have a (fairly useless) disease res. center. It has tremendous capacity but, for some reason, there are only about 4500 Sims choosing this facility. It is located in the middle of the densest residential area but still...

    That's good.  The Disease Research Center is for chemotherapy, or dialysis ... or cooking up a new vaccine.  They don't treat broken bones.  They do make an overall difference to your citywide Health, but patient numbers in the Disease Research Center are an entirely separate pool of patients.  *:read:

    The monthly budget for the Disease Research Center is small, compared to the benefit, but if your city budget is in the red, you might need to bulldoze it.  If you can afford to keep it, it's a good thing to keep.  In addition to the health benefits, it increases your city population CAP by 10 thousand R$$ and 10 thousand R$$$ sims.  It also provides jobs for about a hundred highly educated sims.

    My advice ... once you've bulldozed your two 1x2 clinics, and set your Ambulance Funding to ZERO, then look again at your Coverage circles in the Health data view, and decide on the locations of two more hospitals.  There'll be some bulldozing required, but your sims will thank you!  *:yes:

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    3 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Do you have any idea how I could tidy up my health system and take the burden off my hospitals? All funding is maxed-out and I still have at least one of the facilities striking at any given time.

    Controlling pollution in residential zones will help keep the sims from getting sick which will help decrease the need for health care. Sim are born with a health quotient(HQ) with each class slightly higher then the lower class. 20 for R$, 40 for R$$ and 6o for R$$$. Much the same with the Education Quotient(EQ), from birth, HQ is set and increases by them living under effective coverage all while naturally decreasing. It drops 0.2 points each month. This dependents on which factors are the strongest to which way it will go. With no heath care, sims health will drop to zero in 8 years.  At death, this is Some of their EQ and HQ is passed on down to the next generation. Called HQ inheritance. (At death, if you are luck, you can see their spirt float up to haven from their home. True fact.) So, as each generation grows, they can become smarter and healthier at birth then the last gen with proper planning and running the simulator for many, many years.

    Also have you enacted any ordinances? CRR training(+10% HQ), free clinic( +10% HQ)  or the auto emissions reduction act(-10% air pollution), or the clean air act(-5% dirty indy demand) or the commuter shuttle service(-2% air pollution)

    All this is found in Prima's Official Strategy Guide. Link below in many available formats.

    https://archive.org/details/SimCity_4_Rush_Hour_Prima_Official_eGuide/


      Edited by Kloudkicker  
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    8 minutes ago, Kloudkicker said:

    CPR training(+10% HQ), free clinic( +10% HQ)

    Yes, I use those two ordinances in the early stages of building a new city, if I'm holding out before placing hospitals.  No hospitals = no strikes.  *:thumb:

    I tend to just leave them on, too.

    One experiment I want to try one day, is running a city with just Community CPR Training Program(+10% HQ), Free Clinic Program( +10% HQ), and the Disease Research Center ... no hospitals at all!   :O

    14 minutes ago, Kloudkicker said:

    clean air act(-5% dirty indy demand)

    Just a note that the Clean Air Act has been beefed up by the NAM ... much more powerful than the Maxis original, to deal with the increased traffic on NAM highways.

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    1 hour ago, Naomi57 said:

    First off, use this tip (if you're not using it already), to review budgets of all your health buildings in one place

    Nearly 20 years of Sc4... and I never clicked that second eye.

     

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    Well, perhaps they indeed need more hospitals, but they are so huge, they take up a whole cell of my city grid... What? Am I supposed to create an entire hospital village to keep them satisfied? >:(

    I'm not sure how dozing clinics can help rather than exacerbate the problem. When this (600 each?) capacity is lost, all these patients will swarm the hospitals and keep clogging the system further on. Actually, the clinic workers are the ones who strike least often...

    Or I'll just mod the hell out of these suckers and be done with it...

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    13 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I'm not sure how dozing clinics can help rather than exacerbate the problem.

    Perhaps you overlooked this part:

    7 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    ... and decide on the locations of two more hospitals.

    *;)

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    3 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Well, perhaps they indeed need more hospitals, but they are so huge, they take up a whole cell of my city grid... What? Am I supposed to create an entire hospital village to keep them satisfied? >:(

    I usually have a hospital + large elementary school at the centre of each residential community, or else a hospital + large elementary school + large high school, using formats such as the following:

    6x6 sch+hosp plan.png  Curved driveway sch+hosp plan.png

    AVE-4 sch+hosp plan.png

    Civic buildings are part of what makes a residential community, a community.

    3 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I'm not sure how dozing clinics can help rather than exacerbate the problem. When this (600 each?) capacity is lost, all these patients will swarm the hospitals and keep clogging the system further on. Actually, the clinic workers are the ones who strike least often...

    You might have stumbled across a position and residential population combination whereby the 1x2 clinics are not the weakest link.  They usually are.

    3 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:
    3 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I'm not sure how dozing clinics can help rather than exacerbate the problem.

    Perhaps you overlooked this part:

    @CorinaMarie is correct.  Replacing the two clinics with hospitals is likely to solve your issues.

    3x4 Hospitals are not only substantially higher capacity than the 1x2 clinics, they are also substantially cheaper to run, per patient.

    3 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Or I'll just mod the hell out of these suckers and be done with it...

    There is the option to download one of the big central city hospitals on the STEX or the LEX.  Here's a few I've thought I might try someday.

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    3 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I'm not sure how dozing clinics can help rather than exacerbate the problem. When this (600 each?) capacity is lost, all these patients will swarm the hospitals and keep clogging the system further on. Actually, the clinic workers are the ones who strike least often...

    If you have two small medical clinics as your total healthcare system for a city, well you are being a cheapskate, there I said it.

    The fact is, that's simply not enough to handle the number of sims that get sick, so you need more capacity in the system. Bear in mind, Health like all public services benefit when multiples of them have overlapping radiuses, essentially this makes them more effective. Sounds to me like your city may be ready for a hospital to be built.

    I can totally relate to the sheer number of Health, Police, Fire and Education buildings needed being ridiculous compared to the real world. But, SimCity has been this way since the very first game, it is what it is. Thankfully, with a bit of modding/downloading, we can have much more realistic medical facilities that don't need building every other few blocks. In the case of a hospital you can mod that so it has coverage for an entire city, but if you have really large populations, a single one may not have sufficient capacity. But, your sims will be healthier overall, only if you have additional facilities. But again with some creativity, you don't have to spam the same medical clinic over and over to achieve this. Some examples:

    • Vanoed made a wonderful little French pharmacy, modded like a small clinic.
    • I've seen a house modded as a "dentists", again it's essentially a small clinic, but plops into a row of matching houses.
    • PEG made a Rural Vet for the SPAM series, guess what, it's really just a small clinic modded with a more suitable radius for small settlements that might be more scattered.

    As always, there are plenty of solutions to dealing with this problem, including just not giving sims the healthcare they want. Of course that last one won't help mayors who want happy sims, but it's nonetheless a valid strategy. The fly in the ointment being that when you place a medical facility, sims in it's radius expect to be able to use it. So having an overcrowded facility might be worse than having none at all in this scenario.

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    1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

    If you have two small medical clinics as your total healthcare system for a city, well you are being a cheapskate, there I said it.

    That is so out of context. I'm afraid you haven't read the first post...

    13 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    Notice that my Ambulance Funding is ZERO for every single hospital.  Ambulance funding is simply a way of paying more for an increased coverage radius.  Ambulances, just like School Buses, are not essential, it's an optional extra.

    It's a pity it's not balanced better. >.< Ambulance and range settings make city management very interesting. But it looks like Maxis did not adjust the facilities' capacity to account for this useful mechanism to keep up the pace.

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    1 minute ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    t's a pity it's not balanced better. >.< Ambulance and range settings make city management very interesting. But it looks like Maxis did not adjust the facilities' capacity to account for that useful mechanism.

    Yes, agreed, the simulation is rather simplistic in this area.

    I'd suggest you check out one of the larger hospitals I mentioned.  They deliver a more realistic central hospital feel, and may be a solution that feels more right to you.

    Use of the ambulance feature to widen the coverage radius does make sense across wide swathes of low density housing, or for a hospital covering a town + surrounding villages.  The "Rural Vet" that @rsc204 mentioned might also be an asset in that situation.  James Herriot mentioned in his books that a surprising number of human beings would seek his advice, though he refrained from medical treatment of human beings for the most part, given he was a qualified vet, not a doctor.  *:D

    1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

    PEG made a Rural Vet for the SPAM series, guess what, it's really just a small clinic modded with a more suitable radius for small settlements that might be more scattered.

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    2 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    That is so out of context. I'm afraid you haven't read the first post...

    Apologies, indeed I just missed the part about the 3 larger facilities. But the general advice still holds, if a facility is over-subscribed, you need more capacity in the system, whether that be localised or further afield.

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    On 1/5/2021 at 4:55 PM, Naomi57 said:

    a city with just Community CPR Training Program(+10% HQ), Free Clinic Program( +10% HQ), and the Disease Research Center

    And the Farmers' Market contributes a small health boost too.

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    1 hour ago, jeffryfisher said:

    And the Farmers' Market contributes a small health boost too.

    I had no idea about that, thanks!

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    I decided to just mod my health centers while keeping them balanced.

    So in the end, my hospitals have received 20% more of everything. Patient capacity, job openings, pollution, utilities consumption and of course maintenance costs. Ambulance range has, understandably, not been changed.

    I can now make do with just three hospitals. I just don't like swarms of civic building littering the city. I consider SC4's maps to be too small for this.

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    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

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    1 hour ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I decided to just mod my health centers while keeping them balanced.

    So in the end, my hospitals have received 20% more of everything. Patient capacity, job openings, pollution, utilities consumption and of course maintenance costs. Ambulance range has, understandably, not been changed.

    I can now make do with just three hospitals. I just don't like swarms of civic building littering the city. I consider SC4's maps to be too small for this.

    Very nice, I can't do that yet. In case these have not been mentioned, they are very helpful and have a nice modern look. Made by a legend, they are well modeled. Blends into the urban scene sometimes to well. I use them when I don't want hospitals everywhere. There are three lots. One for hospital, fire and police. All are great but can be used separately if wanted. At least check them out. You won't be disappointed.

     


      Edited by Kloudkicker  
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    Any suggestions regarding the shipping/seaport overhaul?

    The identical white container ships, leaving the terminal, then, disappearing into thin air are way past terrible...

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    8 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Any suggestions regarding the shipping/seaport overhaul?

    The identical white container ships, leaving the terminal, then, disappearing into thin air are way past terrible...

    :golly::LlamaLeap::no:

    This page on sc4devotion is the definitive guide to functional sea port mods ... a very tricky subject.  I haven't got that far, yet.  

    There's ways to make automata persist for longer ... so I presume that can be applied to the container ships, too.

    I think people have made alternative container ship automata, and container ship props, and there's some pretty amazing sea port eye candy I've seen, but I don't keep track of that side of the game.

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    On 1/5/2021 at 7:35 PM, Naomi57 said:

    Yea, I remember going through that stage of my gameplay, too.  :O*:D

    First off, use this tip (if you're not using it already), to review budgets of all your health buildings in one place ...  *:idea:

    That's the master list of all my hospitals (so far) in Brownsville.

    Notice that my Ambulance Funding is ZERO for every single hospital.  Ambulance funding is simply a way of paying more for an increased coverage radius.  Ambulances, just like School Buses, are not essential, it's an optional extra.  Ambulances are an optional extra that I frequently don't use.

    The problem, is that a wider coverage radius means more patients inside that radius, leading to the problem you've got ... too many patients.

    The little 1x2 clinics are usually another problem.  They don't balance patients very well with hospitals, unless their coverage circles are positioned very carefully.  Bulldozing those two clinics might solve half of your strikes.  I usually use these little clinics for isolated pocket neighbourhoods (see below) ... that's half the residential pocket, right there, with the little clinic on the right side.  This is a sweet little residential corner of Breezy Point, squeezed between two commercial neighbourhoods and the sea.  Even so, the clinic is really, really busy.  Little clinics do not survive well in larger residential areas, and these 1x2 little clinics do not play well with the 3x4 hospitals, strange as that might seem.

    Breezy Point SAM-6.jpg

    For each residential neighbourhood, you need to choose to use either 1x2 clinics, or 3x4 hospitals, not a mixture.  Attempting to use a mixture is very tricky to balance out, and usually leads to trouble.

    That's good.  The Disease Research Center is for chemotherapy, or dialysis ... or cooking up a new vaccine.  They don't treat broken bones.  They do make an overall difference to your citywide Health, but patient numbers in the Disease Research Center are an entirely separate pool of patients.  *:read:

    The monthly budget for the Disease Research Center is small, compared to the benefit, but if your city budget is in the red, you might need to bulldoze it.  If you can afford to keep it, it's a good thing to keep.  In addition to the health benefits, it increases your city population CAP by 10 thousand R$$ and 10 thousand R$$$ sims.  It also provides jobs for about a hundred highly educated sims.

    My advice ... once you've bulldozed your two 1x2 clinics, and set your Ambulance Funding to ZERO, then look again at your Coverage circles in the Health data view, and decide on the locations of two more hospitals.  There'll be some bulldozing required, but your sims will thank you!  *:yes:

    You seem to have enough schools to obviate the necessity of school buses...ambulances, on the other hand, you probably need.

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    Kiwiwriter

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    6 hours ago, Kiwiwriter47 said:

    You seem to have enough schools to obviate the necessity of school buses...ambulances, on the other hand, you probably need.

    One of the issues with SC4 is that the ambulance funding feature is not realistic at all.  All Ambulance Funding does is increase the health coverage radius of the hospital, and like @TheMurderousCricket found out, SC4 vanilla hospitals easily become overwhelmed with too many patients in a medium density urban environment, let alone high density.  $0 Ambulance Funding for a 23 tile radius on a Maxis vanilla hospital, is often very appropriate in urban settings, because a wider radius means patient overload of the 3299 patient maximum capacity.  :rage:

    Then in a rural setting, where you want a wider health coverage radius, and there's nowhere near enough patients to overwhelm the hospital, an ambulance budget is way too expensive, because the Ambulance Funding expense is based on an urban scale ambulance service.  :boggle:

    6 hours ago, Kiwiwriter47 said:
    On 06/01/2021 at 11:35 AM, Naomi57 said:

    I usually keep ambulance funding set to ZERO, but will later adjust that funding to attempt balancing inter-hospital patient loads.  Sadly, ideal patient load balancing more frequently requires bulldozing and moving hospitals, if I'm really keen to do that.  >.<:nyah:

    e.g. Two of the hospitals above in Brownsville, Starrett City at 1439 patients, and Linden Park at 2145 patients, bear watching.  Linden Park will have even more patients, soon, as there are more New York City Housing Authority blocks going up in that area.  By increasing Starrett City ambulance funding, they can take on some of the Linden Park patients, sharing patients between the two hospitals more evenly.  Spring Creek hospital has even fewer patients, just 584, but they are a little further away, so patient transport out to Spring Creek would require maximum ambulance funding on that hospital.

    Ambulance funding, as defined for the SC4 vanilla health buildings, is really more of an urban inter-hospital patient transport funding, rather than a realistic 911 ambulance service.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    While there are radius doublers and giant hospitals (and magical hospitals) on the STEX, I don't think there's any Realistic Ambulance mod, to literally re-balance hospital and ambulance services to model them a little more realistically. 

    • Maxis vanilla hospitals vary from 23 tile radius (at 0% ambulance funding)
                                                             to 48 tile radius (with $240 – 100% ambulance funding).   
    • Maxis vanilla clinics vary from 11 tile radius (at 0% ambulance funding)
                                                        to 23 tile radius (with $120 – 100% ambulance funding).   

    I think the radius should be governed purely by Ambulance Funding, not the size of the medical facility, and allow a broader span of coverage.  e.g.

    • For both hospitals and clinics, from 6 tile radius (at 0% ambulance funding)
                                                                 to 126 tile radius (at $120 – 100% ambulance funding)

    That would allow better Mayor control of patient balancing between hospitals, as well as making the clinic more viable for country areas, and would make a mixture of clinics and hospitals MUCH easier to manage without getting frequent strikes.  Simply increase or decrease ambulance funding to draw more or fewer patients.  In a high density urban environment (like the one below), a 6 tile radius would be entirely appropriate for a clinic! ... or two!  *:yes:

    Jamaica Bay - R$ District.jpg

    A little 6 tile radius would allow us to plop a clinic in urban locations which have a need for a health boost, either chronic or temporary.

    Economies of scale, patient numbers, and effectiveness, should be the driving factor for larger hospitals ... not coverage radius.    Of course, the risk of the Phantom Slider Bug would be a huge issue for such a mod, ... so, like so many before us, we'll probably just stick with custom content hospitals to achieve our radius goals.

    ... but I still think about it ... it's not impossible, maybe one day.  *:bunny:

    In the short-to-medium term, I just might experiment with modding the 1x2 Maxis Medical Clinic to have a 6 tile to 126 tile ambulance radius, for this exact purpose.  I don't have enough little clinics in my cities, because I so seldom have a tiny little pocket of residential to balance patient numbers for me.  *:idea:

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    6 minutes ago, Naomi57 said:

    I just might experiment with modding the 1x2 Maxis Medical Clinic to have a 6 tile to 126 tile ambulance radius, for this exact purpose.

    When you do, give it a new IID and, I believe, that'll prevent the Phantom Slider Bug. *;)

    My understanding is the whole problem is modding the funding or radius of buildings with sliders, but keeping the same IID such that they don't match up if loading a city where they were plopped with the prior info.

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    *:)Hay @Naomi57, I wanted to research info on hospital funding and one of the first things I can across was this PDF from www.aihw.gov.au

    Cool info in there. It auto download a PDF when I clicked the link, so I read some.


      Edited by Kloudkicker  

    Added direct link. (TY Cori or CB I presume. :) and grammar
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    42 minutes ago, Kloudkicker said:

    *:)Hay @Naomi57, I wanted to research info on hospital funding and one of the first things I can across was this PDF from www.aihw.gov.au

    Cool info in there. It auto download a PDF when I clicked the link, so I read some.

    Thanks for that, @Kloudkicker. Yea, Maxis health care occurs across three categories:

    • Clinics & Hospitals - Secondary
    • Disease Research Center - Tertiary
    • Farmers Market - Preventative / alternative ... or in a USA context, fighting the food desert.

    food-deserts.jpg
    https://usa.streetsblog.org/2011/01/04/food-deserts-another-way-the-deck-is-stacked-against-car-free-americans/
    ... "The USDA considers households more than a mile from a supermarket and without access to a car to be in food deserts, often with only convenience-store junk food for nourishment." ...

    Incidentally, we've got food deserts in Australia, too, in remote areas.  Some remote communities have gone as far as setting up community-owned grocery stores, to fight food quality and price gouging issues in buying basic essentials.  Funding for such initiatives is hard to come by.

    SC4 essentially ignores primary care, aged care, dental, allied health, social work, and welfare.  I have seen a few items on the STEX for dental or aged care, but they are basically a hospital or clinic under the window dressing.

    I'm hopeful that by modding the clinics to allow control of their radius, it will allow them to play better alongside the hospitals, thereby simulating a Primary Care role, as a state-subsidised clinic for remote or disadvantaged areas.

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    14 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    Economies of scale, patient numbers, and effectiveness, should be the driving factor for larger hospitals ... not coverage radius.    Of course, the risk of the Phantom Slider Bug would be a huge issue for such a mod, ... so, like so many before us, we'll probably just stick with custom content hospitals to achieve our radius goals.

    Honestly that’s a real simple mod to realise. I wouldn’t worry about the Phantom Slider bug, either give the content a new IID, but suffer duplicate menu items. Or just explain the process needed to avoid it when using in existing regions, which is what I did with my Police Station mod.

    But I do feel what a lot of people consider bugs or inadequacies are just in fact limitations of game development. Maxis could have made this area way more complicated, offered way more choices for hospitals or so many other things. But not adding every option to fit every players personal desires, is just one of those compromises you usually have to make.

    The great thing is how Maxis have made a game built from the ground up, precisely so we can mod things to our liking if we don’t like how they work.

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    Head over to my Lot and Mod Shack to keep abreast of my latest developments.

    Do you like custom textures, but don't like all the work involved creating them?, take a look at the Texture Automation options here. Change the look and feel of your transit networks, with the minimum of effort, for example customised versions of my Sidewalk NAM (SWN) and Terrain Grass NAM (TGN) mods, and much more besides.

    New to the NAM? Check out my tutorials on YouTube. Latest upload: How to: RHW - MHO Roundabout Interchanges. (Nov 25).

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    17 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    One of the issues with SC4 is that the ambulance funding feature is not realistic at all.  All Ambulance Funding does is increase the health coverage radius of the hospital, and like @TheMurderousCricket found out, SC4 vanilla hospitals easily become overwhelmed with too many patients in a medium density urban environment, let alone high density.  $0 Ambulance Funding for a 23 tile radius on a Maxis vanilla hospital, is often very appropriate in urban settings, because a wider radius means patient overload of the 3299 patient maximum capacity.  :rage:

    Then in a rural setting, where you want a wider health coverage radius, and there's nowhere near enough patients to overwhelm the hospital, an ambulance budget is way too expensive, because the Ambulance Funding expense is based on an urban scale ambulance service.  :boggle:

    I usually keep ambulance funding set to ZERO, but will later adjust that funding to attempt balancing inter-hospital patient loads.  Sadly, ideal patient load balancing more frequently requires bulldozing and moving hospitals, if I'm really keen to do that.  >.<:nyah:

    e.g. Two of the hospitals above in Brownsville, Starrett City at 1439 patients, and Linden Park at 2145 patients, bear watching.  Linden Park will have even more patients, soon, as there are more New York City Housing Authority blocks going up in that area.  By increasing Starrett City ambulance funding, they can take on some of the Linden Park patients, sharing patients between the two hospitals more evenly.  Spring Creek hospital has even fewer patients, just 584, but they are a little further away, so patient transport out to Spring Creek would require maximum ambulance funding on that hospital.

    Ambulance funding, as defined for the SC4 vanilla health buildings, is really more of an urban inter-hospital patient transport funding, rather than a realistic 911 ambulance service.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    While there are radius doublers and giant hospitals (and magical hospitals) on the STEX, I don't think there's any Realistic Ambulance mod, to literally re-balance hospital and ambulance services to model them a little more realistically. 

    • Maxis vanilla hospitals vary from 23 tile radius (at 0% ambulance funding)
                                                             to 48 tile radius (with $240 – 100% ambulance funding).   
    • Maxis vanilla clinics vary from 11 tile radius (at 0% ambulance funding)
                                                        to 23 tile radius (with $120 – 100% ambulance funding).   

    I think the radius should be governed purely by Ambulance Funding, not the size of the medical facility, and allow a broader span of coverage.  e.g.

    • For both hospitals and clinics, from 6 tile radius (at 0% ambulance funding)
                                                                 to 126 tile radius (at $120 – 100% ambulance funding)

    That would allow better Mayor control of patient balancing between hospitals, as well as making the clinic more viable for country areas, and would make a mixture of clinics and hospitals MUCH easier to manage without getting frequent strikes.  Simply increase or decrease ambulance funding to draw more or fewer patients.  In a high density urban environment (like the one below), a 6 tile radius would be entirely appropriate for a clinic! ... or two!  *:yes:

    Jamaica Bay - R$ District.jpg

    A little 6 tile radius would allow us to plop a clinic in urban locations which have a need for a health boost, either chronic or temporary.

    Economies of scale, patient numbers, and effectiveness, should be the driving factor for larger hospitals ... not coverage radius.    Of course, the risk of the Phantom Slider Bug would be a huge issue for such a mod, ... so, like so many before us, we'll probably just stick with custom content hospitals to achieve our radius goals.

    ... but I still think about it ... it's not impossible, maybe one day.  *:bunny:

    In the short-to-medium term, I just might experiment with modding the 1x2 Maxis Medical Clinic to have a 6 tile to 126 tile ambulance radius, for this exact purpose.  I don't have enough little clinics in my cities, because I so seldom have a tiny little pocket of residential to balance patient numbers for me.  *:idea:

    Seems like you need a mod of some sort to make ambulance service a lot more effective.

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    Kiwiwriter

    aka Dave Lippman

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    By Night: Occasional SimCity builder

     

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    I have discovered an interesting and important thing. Well, maybe not "discovered". Just "was reminded of".

    My city was struggling financialy, despite having a healthy $-$$-$$$ balance and reasonable tax rates.

    And it was then that I realized my only water pump is at 47% condition and I pay about $4200 to keep up with the water demand.

    Once I replaced the pump and adjusted funding level, my revenue increased by $2000.

    It's funny how a single aged item can devour so much money...

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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