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46 minutes ago, T Wrecks said:

Do you happen to know the rate at which content creators refuse to have their stuff included on STEX DVDs? I don't, either, but I guess it's really, really low. That might be because it is clearly visible that Simtropolis is giving something to the community, because the STEX DVDs are respected, because the contributors are respected and because it can be acknowledged that there's some spirit of constructivity behind compiling that stuff, running the site, pressing all those discs, and shipping them all over the world

This bit here is key and goes back to what I said seemingly a trillion pages ago.

Why not simply create paid expansion packs of 'consenting' content creators stuff? We've become bogged down in this idea of a member pursuing a mod-pac when such a simple, simple solution is staring us in the face?

The idea is simply start with the top creators of custom content (I think it is those creators with around 100 or more files on the STEX) So in that vein, you simply create a 'jasoncw' expansion pack, a 'twrecks' expansion pack, a 'dedwoods' expansion pack, a 'simgoober' expansion pack, an 'Il Tonkso' expansion pack etc, etc which combines either all of the content of that creator alone (ie don't mix other creator's work it), or grouped together by RCI by single creator, by type (eg Simgoober RES, Simgoober CO, Simgoober CS) that the site charges a small fee for being able to download the whole pack in one go, as well as leaving the individual files for free for people to download one at a time.....either way, content creators rights are maintained and the noobs can download lazily and thoughtlessly to fill their plugins in one go and the site gets to pocket a very small donation to cover bandwidth.

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53 minutes ago, T Wrecks said:

....This being said, I'm pretty sure that if we get this started, and if we get it started in the right way, it will establish itself and find acceptance. But not with talk like this ....

First all am in total agreement with yours and @madhatter106posts

Secondly If it was agreed to have officially recognized megapacks that were created by a designated team the first pack would take time, probably a lot of time as agreements would have to be reached and decisions made as to how it was going to work, but the second pack would take less time and so on ... its not like they would be generating an endless supple of "packs" as that would put us back in the same position as now with too many choices for a new user ... may be a dozen packs altogether covering the basic groups like commercial or farming and then some country-specific packs so if you want something with a uk theme you could have it.

Edit: sorry was typing post when @mattb325 posted


  Edited by catty-cb  

Added a EDIT

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  • Original Poster
  • 2 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

    This thread is going around in circles so I'll only say:

    4. I don't know the full details or the current progress, but I do know the admins are working on something like a modpack which I don't think is *exactly* like what is being discussed (and like I said I don't know exactly what they're doing) but which exists within the current framework.

    Thank you. All we need right now is something to kindle the sparks that are generating in this thread. Starting small is good because it is easier to manage and mold later when the ball gets rolling.

    The thread may be going in circles but the fact we are discussing this is a step in the right direction in my mind. I actually had fears that the thread would be locked / deleted right away when I made it due to the sensitive nature of the subject!

    -----

    Also a thought occurred:

    Could a mass PM be sent to every member that has submitted a file to the STEX asking for consent to have their work included in a modpack? That way it would only contain files from those who are fine with it. Just an idea for now, just like everything in this discussion thread.

     

    A somewhat more harsh action would be something like "Unless you state otherwise, your creations could be used in a Modpack". I got a similar thing at my work pertaining to the use of photos or stories of me in corporate social media accounts. The difference is that employees are active and have a chance to respond quickly, whereas here we have a ton members who have gone dormant over the years.

     

     

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    5 hours ago, Tyberius06 said:

    You are not constructive... What would be nice from you to help this process, not blocking it

    On this, I think a counter-point is needed. If you look at madhatter106's files, he has already packaged them into what, for my mind at least and what I've described a couple of times, is a mini, quasi mod-pack. He has a few dozen or so themed packs each with around a dozen buildings, thus making it super easy for any one to get a suite of new stuff. So why would he consent to vague ideas on repacking his files into an unknown quantity?

    Which, incidentally, is a perfect segue:

    4 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

    . I don't know the full details or the current progress, but I do know the admins are working on something like a modpack which I don't think is *exactly* like what is being discussed (and like I said I don't know exactly what they're doing) but which exists within the current framework.

    so, for those proponents of sending out PMs to all content creators saying opt-in/opt-out of this concept by such and such a date, can I suggest that we wait and see what the admins have in store for their version of the mod-pack?

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    13 hours ago, T Wrecks said:

    How's that for helping?

    There were users contributed with excellent content. Then - for unknown reasons - they deleted all their content. Those who were there in time may see a merit. For those who came later to the game, after he had deleted his files, there was no noticeable merit.

    Keep in mind that your argument is only temporarily valid.

    Those who become forgotten can't help the presence. To remember - to dig in ancient libraries to rediscover forgotten knowledge is the only way to keep merit consistent through time.

    If you say - you can read my books as long as I hand it directly out to you, but you aren't allowed to keep them in your public library an hand it out to people by yourself - there is no public merit in this. It's just a nice present you give, to those who are around you. Lucky, who gets a slice of the cake,  unfortunated, who comes late. It's kind, generous, social and noble to share your content, to give it for free like a present to the community. Nothing bad. But if it's a merit can't be decided by the simple fact, it's a free offer.

    Like content not working - still it's a generous act to share, doesn't matter, but you can't say it's a merit to the community. Content not being available is the same as content not working. Everything, to be a merit, must have a future sense/use. Like you teach your children - the merit from all this teaching is, what they carry on, not what they ignored, forgot and dropped. Merit lies in the outcome at the very end of all your doing, not in the present act, the doing itself.

    Or:

    Once I won't be on this planet anymore. If there was any merit in the things I did, will be decided then. When someone else picks it up and carries it on, makes. what once belonged to me, then his own. And if there is no one who cares for what I did, my merit is zero, no matter how generous I was during my lifetime. And if I refuse to hand out the boots I once was wearing to someone else to wear, there is no merit. And if I hand out boots not usable it's the same. Like my thoughts - doesn't count how clever and right and profound and iluminated they are - if you can't use them, if they don't help you, there is no merit in my talking/writing.

    One could say:

    If you expect gratitute and respect, you're making presents. If you expect a future merit, you let it go, lay your belongings in other peoples hands so they make further use of them. Like teaching of children. You can't keep it yourself. What you did teach your children are the belongings of your childrens - it's inside of them, not inside of you. If it remains your posession and doesn't become someone elses posession - you tought a big cabbage and nothing else. If you insist on thoughts being your own, it's impossible to share, they must be in common to be shared. So I regard my post as a present - I'm doing something generous to the community by offering my precious thoughts - doesn't this sound funny to you? Isn't all this talking to understand each other, some kind of exchange rather than making presents?

    One terrible thing are the trillions of unfinished, abbandoned bats whe have seen through the years. Would you agree, there is no merit in them regarding the community? Apart from the author was a nice guy/girl, abort from he was generous and friendly. He/never had the idear to hand out his belongings to someone else to carry his work on. Unfinished presents = presents never made = no presents.

    That's why we are going around in circles. There's power involved, or lust - the lust power creates.

    When my daughter was still a child we used to visit my mother together at the weekend. After dinner I had a smoke on the veranda. The veranda door you could open only from the inside. Now to my daughter it caused incredible fun to lock me out while I had a smoke there. She locked the door, stood behind the window and wanted me to ask: please, please, please. And the more I made sad faces and folded my hands and made gestures of begging she became more exited and delighted. It was a game that caused her really great fun, she smiled, grinned and enjoyed ...

    ... her power.

    This is a heavy thing. You must cut your own lust, your own joy - to let things go. it's not simply giving away power, authority, control. With opening the door again and letting me in - my daughter also had to cut her fun to set me free. She had to overcome her lust, her enjoyment for me being released.

    Me, personally, I can't support those arguments, strengthen the thought, there is a merit in controling those doors. Shure it would have been generous from my daughter, when she had opened the door from time to time to give something - some water, something to eat, another cigarette, well, some generous present, - but the move needed here, isn't on the same instance/level of the 'social game',  not inside the game, but a change of game. What you do as a generous acting inside the game can't be regarded as a merit to change the rules.

    You can't say my daughter did a merit to me, nor by closing, nor by opening the door again, nor by controlling the door in generous way and passing stuff to me, to make me feel comfortable as her 'prisoner'. To stop the game, to drop her possition as rulemaker and doorman (doorgirl?), to recognize the circle is broken not on the game level but by changing the game, this might be the merit here. 

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    In order to end the endless discussion of sharing plugins problem and without disrespect any opinions, I've created whitepaper on sharing plugins. You can find it here:

    or, if you're want direct link, you can go to the really long URL: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qFRcXjq0sczpSrzz1hR6TlcV4jR7EAquiVL5mRXZ4-M/edit?usp=sharing.

    Thanks.

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    Thank you, ordinaire user may have lost any clue how things will work out ! Plain language you install a BAT in your SimCity 4 Plugins Main folder or optional in a assinged UserDir Plugins folder, the Apt will look or all dependency are in that respective folder or not, if so install these ! I´d like to make this directory location freedom as advanced user may have several UserDir instalations, aswell using different terrain, water or tree mod´s installed.  Discusion of a centralized or decentralized database per member may be obsolete in this way as the member decides where files maybe applyied !

    Democraticly, we can vote for any future way distribution of files. Choices must as above mentioned be crystal clear:

    - Old and New system side by side on a directory based system Bat´s, Mod´s, MMP,s excluded, dependency only auto download, so still freedom to choose  where to install files !

    - New system only one single download directory central or decentralized database, technical mayhem !

    Personaly I´d like to keep the choice to the member, download the old fashioned way or go for the Apt way, choice to be made in the member profile !

    Sincerely yours,

    kschmidt

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    Sharing plugins isn't dead. Support us by voting and share your thoughts here: 

    The topic isn't duplicate of this topic. Instead, it's companion. Thanks.

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    If I may, I just wanted to post my "read me" files about my ModPack. I created a new one, a ModPack that only contains the dependencies, so I completely redone my "read me" with more details about the mods. I tried to be more specific and take notes of the reviews to improve the content.
    Everything is in French, but I can translate it with a program like Google Translate if you wish.

    I hope this can increase ModPack's rating...

    "ModPack Akallan" (3.80 Go), PDF file  "Lis-moi"
    "ModPack Akallan Light" (2.82 Go), PDF file "Lis-moi"
    "ModPack Akallan Dependencies" (1.22 Go), PDF file "Lis-moi"

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    The discusion about Mod packs needs to have it´s own thread, simple to complicated; members, creators and admins all refuse to discus or coperate in a democratic way ! Any new responses about Modpacks should be posted in this thread !

     

    This thread is about sharing plugins folders, as simple downloading from a independent site. Communty has to talk about or this is accapteble or not. Individual members may share there plugins folder outside this site with non (member) , that´s there own private business !

    Sincerely yours,

    kschmidt 

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    Personally, I feel that this particular thread is actually the perfect venue to continue discussing all of these matters, which are strongly interconnected.  I don't see any need to redirect it to one of those other threads, and break up the valuable context.  While there are some disagreements here about how to proceed, I don't see anything "undemocratic" about this thread--and in fact, quite the opposite.  This thread may have initially started regarding the discussion of folder sharing, but those folder shares that have occurred to date have been "marketed" by their distributors and the resultant userbase as "modpacks". 

    -Tarkus

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    4 hours ago, Tarkus said:

    Personally, I feel that this particular thread is actually the perfect venue to continue discussing all of these matters, which are strongly interconnected.  I don't see any need to redirect it to one of those other threads, and break up the valuable context.  While there are some disagreements here about how to proceed, I don't see anything "undemocratic" about this thread--and in fact, quite the opposite.  This thread may have initially started regarding the discussion of folder sharing, but those folder shares that have occurred to date have been "marketed" by their distributors and the resultant userbase as "modpacks". 

    -Tarkus

    Strongly I have to dissagree with your view ! Forum, practice say´s that the subject of discusion must be what the title is saying when this thread was started, that the discustion for sometime is turning into the direction of the Mod  packs and  new distribution methods, there´s are folowers specific about Mod packs for me  this is no excuus to allow this discusion  thread to be changed in that direction !

    Sincerely yours,

    kschmidt

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    @kschmidt and @Tarkus

    I  can see the logic behind both points of view. I'll bring this up for staff discussion and see how they feel about it. (That can take some time based on schedules and back and forth for points and counterpoints.)

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    I'd have to agree with Tarkus on the value of this thread and keeping the plugin folder sharing and modpack distribution discussions together. I've found the topics are inextricable linked.

    With that in mind, I'd like to share my own recent experience.

    A few weeks ago, I went out of my way to hunt down available plug-in folders. I've been playing the game since it first came out, on and off through the years, but the art of building a proper plug--in folder without conflicts or brown boxes isn't always easy to learn for non-technical people. I've got that skill down (finally I think) - but I've often wondered if I'd be better off with a plug-and--play folder

    With that in mind, I requested a most excellent French mod-pack that I recently previewed. I also downloaded several available plugin folders via torrent and other sources.

    The folders that are available via torrent and other sources are an absolute mess. They are full of obvious conflicts. missing dependencies - and come with no documentation at all... I would not recommend that anyone use that sort of trash - it would take as long to sort the mess out as it would take to simply build a good folder myself. Trash is the operative word...just trash...

    The mod-pack I received from a French source is actually most excellent. It is very well organized, quite complete for a great style of play, and it's pretty well documented too. In terms of what a shared plug-in folder should look like, it's absolutely "spot-on". At least that's my personal opinion - obviously your mileage may vary.

    Yet, I have to also admit, I found myself unsatisfied. Despite the completeness, the organization, the fact that it's a very good representation of what a mod-pack might provide in terms of "plug--and-play" opportunity, it didn't work for me.

    I read the documentation and installed the folder with great anticipation. I sat down to play SC4 - for the first time ever knowing that the plugin folder I was going to use was developed by an established player who's style and skill I greatly admire. It seemed that everything was just perfect.

    Then my little quibbles started. Jeesh, that's not a terrain mod I really like. I'd foolishly assumed a French player would be using the popular French terrain mod I prefer. We all know what happens when we assume...That's on me, not the plug-in folder's author.

    Next, I've gotten used to a particular tree controller...It's the terrain mod redux - it's not the author's fault my preferences are different...

    The menu is also full of buildings more naturally native to a European city than my more North American style. OK, that makes sense. I hadn't thought of it in advance, but it's logic is like a headsmack to me. In my ardent desire to try out a plug-in folder by a city artist I admire, I hadn't taken these kinds of things into account.

    Then I realize how many of the landmark menu buildings - and there are lots of them - are just eye-candy. That's perfect for the landscape painter and city artist, but my personal style focuses on growable lots, when I do use plop lots I concentrate on finding functional lots. Once again, it's not the fault of the author of the plug-in folder that my playing style is different, it's actually a testament to the versatility of the game.

    In then end, the plugin folder I'd very ardently desired, was a work of art. But it wasn't the artist's palate I was comfortable with.

    I have realized that my own quibbles about another player's plugin folder are actually a huge testament to SC4's versatility. There is so very much custom content, there are so many options, that agreeing on even a common base set of modifications to the game could be difficult.

    I don't use the popular spaceport fix, for instance, because I use another extensive air transport mod that corrects the issues. Other "fixes" I consider necessary to correct may actually be another's cup of tea. My cities tend to be temperate and arid - that means palm trees bother me. I consider a palm replacement plugin to be an absolute essential. Other's may love tropical foliage and an abundance of palm trees. Even if it's not what I prefer, profligate palmage is perfect for them...

    If you'd like metaphor....

    Let's say that the author of the plugin folder's artistic style is oil-color paint. I really admire the painter's art. Let's say I'm an aspiring chalk artist. Sharing tools, while an educational experience, isn't likely to be greatly productive. To switch to oil-painting, after learning to create in chalk, would require adapting to an entirely new style. It may be easier to just stay within my own medium...

    Discussion of mod-packs and shared plugin folders are all interconnected. As soon as one mod-pack is built, someone is going to want to build on it. Mod packs are stacked together and released by third parties without regard to compatibility. There are huge potential downfalls to separating this discussion at this point...

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    1 hour ago, Mike the Hun said:

    I'd have to agree with Tarkus on the value of this thread and keeping the plugin folder sharing and modpack distribution discussions together. I've found the topics are inextricable linked.

    With that in mind, I'd like to share my own recent experience.

    A few weeks ago, I went out of my way to hunt down available plug-in folders. I've been playing the game since it first came out, on and off through the years, but the art of building a proper plug--in folder without conflicts or brown boxes isn't always easy to learn for non-technical people. I've got that skill down (finally I think) - but I've often wondered if I'd be better off with a plug-and--play folder

    With that in mind, I requested a most excellent French mod-pack that I recently previewed. I also downloaded several available plugin folders via torrent and other sources.

    The folders that are available via torrent and other sources are an absolute mess. They are full of obvious conflicts. missing dependencies - and come with no documentation at all... I would not recommend that anyone use that sort of trash - it would take as long to sort the mess out as it would take to simply build a good folder myself. Trash is the operative word...just trash...

    The mod-pack I received from a French source is actually most excellent. It is very well organized, quite complete for a great style of play, and it's pretty well documented too. In terms of what a shared plug-in folder should look like, it's absolutely "spot-on". At least that's my personal opinion - obviously your mileage may vary.

    Yet, I have to also admit, I found myself unsatisfied. Despite the completeness, the organization, the fact that it's a very good representation of what a mod-pack might provide in terms of "plug--and-play" opportunity, it didn't work for me.

    I read the documentation and installed the folder with great anticipation. I sat down to play SC4 - for the first time ever knowing that the plugin folder I was going to use was developed by an established player who's style and skill I greatly admire. It seemed that everything was just perfect.

    Then my little quibbles started. Jeesh, that's not a terrain mod I really like. I'd foolishly assumed a French player would be using the popular French terrain mod I prefer. We all know what happens when we assume...That's on me, not the plug-in folder's author.

    Next, I've gotten used to a particular tree controller...It's the terrain mod redux - it's not the author's fault my preferences are different...

    The menu is also full of buildings more naturally native to a European city than my more North American style. OK, that makes sense. I hadn't thought of it in advance, but it's logic is like a headsmack to me. In my ardent desire to try out a plug-in folder by a city artist I admire, I hadn't taken these kinds of things into account.

    Then I realize how many of the landmark menu buildings - and there are lots of them - are just eye-candy. That's perfect for the landscape painter and city artist, but my personal style focuses on growable lots, when I do use plop lots I concentrate on finding functional lots. Once again, it's not the fault of the author of the plug-in folder that my playing style is different, it's actually a testament to the versatility of the game.

    In then end, the plugin folder I'd very ardently desired, was a work of art. But it wasn't the artist's palate I was comfortable with.

    I have realized that my own quibbles about another player's plugin folder are actually a huge testament to SC4's versatility. There is so very much custom content, there are so many options, that agreeing on even a common base set of modifications to the game could be difficult.

    I don't use the popular spaceport fix, for instance, because I use another extensive air transport mod that corrects the issues. Other "fixes" I consider necessary to correct may actually be another's cup of tea. My cities tend to be temperate and arid - that means palm trees bother me. I consider a palm replacement plugin to be an absolute essential. Other's may love tropical foliage and an abundance of palm trees. Even if it's not what I prefer, profligate palmage is perfect for them...

    If you'd like metaphor....

    Let's say that the author of the plugin folder's artistic style is oil-color paint. I really admire the painter's art. Let's say I'm an aspiring chalk artist. Sharing tools, while an educational experience, isn't likely to be greatly productive. To switch to oil-painting, after learning to create in chalk, would require adapting to an entirely new style. It may be easier to just stay within my own medium...

    Discussion of mod-packs and shared plugin folders are all interconnected. As soon as one mod-pack is built, someone is going to want to build on it. Mod packs are stacked together and released by third parties without regard to compatibility. There are huge potential downfalls to separating this discussion at this point...

    Sharing personal plugins folders with members is a by defenition a offence, so illegal. Mod pack creation to make building a plugin folder easier isn´t dependant on obtainng others personal plugins folders, this can be done with your own plugins folder or STEX and LEX files. First subject Sharing plugins folders is under discusion or this should change.  Second subject Modpack creation as above described comes quit seperate of what should be discused. What both subject only share is legalty and democratic values. Fore the sake of keeping both subject discusions clean of any interference these need to be seperated. If the creator Halljackey and STEX staff may agree it´s fine to keep this thread  as it is it will be so, only request I´d like to make if so, to choose a appropiate new thread name !

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    4 hours ago, kschmidt said:

    Sharing personal plugins folders with members is a by defenition a offence, so illegal.

    You are mixing things. It's NOT illegal, it isn't recommended and it is AGAINST the current rules of the community, which is under consideration. There isn't any written law for these shared files on the exchanges, only the wishes of the creators that their contents wouldn't be shared without their consent... That's all.

    The ModPack discussions here is in the right place. Sharing plugin folders can happen any time, nobody can stop it and it's not illegal, just against the rules of the community, which is actually not written in stone and you won't be killed if you do that, just be banned from each sites... At least your known account... And when it happen in an unorganized way a lot of shit just go into the fan. 

    So to avoid the shit storm there is a need for this kind of discussion about sharing plugin folders, because there is a need for them and the most reasonable way would be the official MODPacks, or if individuals as Akallan wants to share ones plugin folder, there should be a detailed disccussion for that as well. What he does it's quite OK, because he provides readmes and all the necessary support what he can give. So actually the two discussion is connected and related with each other.

    And again, there are not legality conserns in that way, because there isn't any law for these free contents...

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    4 minutes ago, Tyberius06 said:

     

    Yes, that´s why I say any discusion about those obtained plugins folder isn´t wright, let alone this the side way discusion about using or creating Mod packs from this ! *:8)

    Sincerely yours,

    kschmidt

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    I am being open about sharing of plugin folders because this thread invited the discussion. *:thumb:

    I do this fully aware that in openly admitting I'd played with a shared folder that I open myself up to both criticism and possible repercussions for my actions. I am not asking for amnesty for my actions, but I believe they are far more common than is known in the "regular community" of posters. I am willing to accept punishment, if that is needed to move forward the discussion. I've done civil disobedience in the real world, it seemed time to step forward here, as this is an important discussion.

    You see, I've been lurking round these parts for more than a decade, learning and absorbing. I love SC4, it's the only game I play even semi-consistently. I've had many false starts. Because of the on-again off again nature of my interest, it's been difficult to build and maintain the kind of plugin folder I envision wanting to keep. *:???:

    Some of that has been the classic binge downloading followed by frustration when I discover not enough attention was paid to dependencies. Some of it is the occasional bout of depression that leads to me tearing everything down and starting over. I'm just being honest here - I spent 25 years working in government, politics, and campaigns - I earned my depression! *:party:

    So when I discovered that a plugin folder was being shared by an individual I consider to be a Master of the game, someone who has mentored me without knowing it through their videos and mayor's diary, I approached them for the file. I can assure you it wasn't just shared without thought, I was asked my intent, skill level, etc. 

    I was asked to follow up with the creator too - to give feedback on my experience. I also confess that I was socially inept in making my initial feedback in a public forum, rather than by private message. So there are a few things I wish to clarify for any that might have misunderstood my previous post...*:lol:

    I meant no criticism of the modpack, nor of the tremendous efforts put into compiling it. I think it's an absolutely supreme accomplishment, and I think that it is a great service to new players - especially for it's intended target audience who do not speak English. I tried my best to convey that sentiment in my previous post, and if I failed that, or if I offended the folder's creator in any way, I do public ally apologize.

    I didn't mean for my account to be critical, just an honest appraisal of my experience. I believe I am simply one small step beyond the target audience of this shared folder. I have to stop doubting myself and just go ahead with a plugin folder I build that's just customized by me and for me.

    I think that privately sharing plugin folders with new players is a great unrecognized service to the community. I commend the effort. Please do not be discouraged by the fact it wasn't a perfect fit for me, where I'm at in the game the only thing that would really be perfect for me is something I've built and documented from the ground up.

    There's a new generation of gamers who aren't very likely to spend weeks compiling a plugin folder. SC4 comes with a steep learning curve. NAM's learning curve is just immense. Just learning the the NAM nomenclature requires real effort. I've spent hours exploring NAM puzzle pieces. We play an immensely complex, not to mention immensely satisfying game.

    I think mod packs are a good idea - but one fraught with potential difficulties. The same is true with shared plugin folders. I do not have answers, just experience to share in trying to help develop answers. I wanted to see what is out there. I did at my own risk. I'm willing to share my experience because what do I really have to loose? I lurked for a decade, and am not a greatly social creature.

    I'm just another individual who plays the game.

     

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    12 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

    I'll bring this up for staff discussion and see how they feel about it. (That can take some time based on schedules and back and forth for points and counterpoints.)

    As Cori mentioned, as staff we've discussed this and our conclusion is as follows:


    Until an official direction is laid out on the future of MODPACCs, it's worth keeping the discussion contained within this existing thread.

    We see a few advantages of doing so:

    • This is a popular topic. There have been 322 posts made over the course of almost a dozen pages.
    • People are familiar with the topic which pertains to a discussion more than just about the sharing of plugins folders. The idea very quickly moved away from that early on. It is recognisable when listed on the forum index and post feeds.
    • There are 40 followers of the topic. Each time a new post is made, they'll be notified which helps keep participants aware and involved with the activity. This would be reset if starting afresh.
    • Even though it's heading around in circles somewhat, the discussion is still relevant to what's been said already and that is still productive.
    • It has remained civil, even though people are understandably frustrated by the current lack of visible progress.
    • Should a new topic be created, to limit dispersion we'd have to deem MODPACCs as off-topic for being discussed in the current thread. Even if moving posts over to a new location, that would surely create confusion over what can be said and where.


    All in all, it has run smoothly over the past 11 pages, and see no reason why this should change or needs to change now. We believe the right time to open a dedicated thread is once there's a path in place leading the way. This shall be a staff post outlining what is happening, whereas thus far it's been about what may happen. Sure it'd encourage a more focused topic, but that may not be of benefit without a clear direction.

    So we're very much in favour of keeping it as is, until there comes a time where clarity will benefit from laying down a crafted strategy.

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    To clarify, the intention to create a separate thread is to poll what the community wanted to, not for instance, discussing ethical issues. Detailed issues on distribution ethics should be discussed here, not my thread. My thread is purely for making the community decision easier, not harder. Consensus takes long time, while voting only takes short time. We should combine both so the feature will be quickly adopted, while we will fix problems.

    Thanks.

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    17 hours ago, Mike the Hun said:

    ....The mod-pack I received from a French source is actually most excellent. It is very well organized, quite complete for a great style of play, and it's pretty well documented too. In terms of what a shared plug-in folder should look like, it's absolutely "spot-on". At least that's my personal opinion - obviously your mileage may vary.

    Yet, I have to also admit, I found myself unsatisfied. Despite the completeness, the organization, the fact that it's a very good representation of what a mod-pack might provide in terms of "plug--and-play" opportunity, it didn't work for me.

    I read the documentation and installed the folder with great anticipation. I sat down to play SC4 - for the first time ever knowing that the plugin folder I was going to use was developed by an established player who's style and skill I greatly admire. It seemed that everything was just perfect.

    Then my little quibbles started. Jeesh, that's not a terrain mod I really like. I'd foolishly assumed a French player would be using the popular French terrain mod I prefer. We all know what happens when we assume...That's on me, not the plug-in folder's author.

    Next, I've gotten used to a particular tree controller...It's the terrain mod redux - it's not the author's fault my preferences are different...

    The menu is also full of buildings more naturally native to a European city than my more North American style. OK, that makes sense. I hadn't thought of it in advance, but it's logic is like a headsmack to me. In my ardent desire to try out a plug-in folder by a city artist I admire, I hadn't taken these kinds of things into account.

    Then I realize how many of the landmark menu buildings - and there are lots of them - are just eye-candy. That's perfect for the landscape painter and city artist, but my personal style focuses on growable lots, when I do use plop lots I concentrate on finding functional lots. Once again, it's not the fault of the author of the plug-in folder that my playing style is different, it's actually a testament to the versatility of the game.

    In then end, the plugin folder I'd very ardently desired, was a work of art. But it wasn't the artist's palate I was comfortable with.....

    Ditto .... I've been a long-time SC4 player and to be honest I think I can safely say I've probably spent more time trying to get the perfect plugin's folder than I have actually spent playing the game, anyway I also play Banished so when some very respected members of the Banished community created MegaMod

    Quote

    Have you ever wished you could download all of the most popular Banished mods compiled into one comprehensive package? Welcome to the mother of all Banished mods. The MegaMod - the ultimate Banished mod experience.

    http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/files/file/72-megamod/

    http://blackliquidsoftware.com/index.php?/files/file/160-megamod-deco-pack/

    It was jump for joy time no more tweaking mod folders or worrying about conflicts or things not working  just download, activate and play ... perfect and yet it wasn't I tend to build walled cities (got to keep the zombies out :lol:)  so the mods I use tend to have lots of walls and stone buildings and while MegaMod given me some of that, I wasn't using quite a lot of it and worse I was downloading other mods to make up for what wasn't in MegaMod and it got to the point that the game was taking so long to start up it wasn't playable anymore, so with a great deal of reluctance as it was like letting go of the dream *:(  I uninstalled MegaMod and went back to picking with great care the mods I actually wanted to see in the game.

    -catty

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    8 hours ago, Cyclone Boom said:

    As Cori mentioned, as staff we've discussed this and our conclusion is as follows:


    Until an official direction is laid out on the future of MODPACCs, it's worth keeping the discussion contained within this existing thread.

    We see a few advantages of doing so:

    • This is a popular topic. There have been 322 posts made over the course of almost a dozen pages.
    • People are familiar with the topic which pertains to a discussion more than just about the sharing of plugins folders. The idea very quickly moved away from that early on. It is recognisable when listed on the forum index and post feeds.
    • There are 40 followers of the topic. Each time a new post is made, they'll be notified which helps keep participants aware and involved with the activity. This would be reset if starting afresh.
    • Even though it's heading around in circles somewhat, the discussion is still relevant to what's been said already and that is still productive.
    • It has remained civil, even though people are understandably frustrated by the current lack of visible progress.
    • Should a new topic be created, to limit dispersion we'd have to deem MODPACCs as off-topic for being discussed in the current thread. Even if moving posts over to a new location, that would surely create confusion over what can be said and where.


    All in all, it has run smoothly over the past 11 pages, and see no reason why this should change or needs to change now. We believe the right time to open a dedicated thread is once there's a path in place leading the way. This shall be a staff post outlining what is happening, whereas thus far it's been about what may happen. Sure it'd encourage a more focused topic, but that may not be of benefit without a clear direction.

    So we're very much in favour of keeping it as is, until there comes a time where clarity will benefit from laying down a crafted strategy.

    Dissapointed, you have given the mayority of the Modpack poster´s thereway to use this thread for there liking ! Respect your reason to do so.As you noted this new discusion is running in circles for sometime, with several several way´s of viewing. My view is that all members need to discus how Simtropolis file distribution should look like, impartial of how this should be achieved, members need to have oppurtunity to show there  views in a survey in clear language. Results of this again be discused. Final a vote for one or another system being presented. Some other threads may offer room to continue this discusion or may be a alternative fresh space to discus this in a more construcive manor !

    As this thread stay´s as it is, I have no other choice to unfollow this thread. As it is now it doesn´t discus what originaly meant to be discused and totaly lost direction !

    Sincerely yours,

    kschmidt

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    I was thinking about the sharing cities rule and my opinion about is that it should be allowed because if the STEX files is free why don’t the cities? I think the cities should be share only with the author permission though, this is a way to give credits and enjoy their works too, like already is given to STEX makers. However, if would have changes on this rule, it should be:
     
    1. Everyone can get any cities from their authors by asking for a permission. 
    2. The authors can only share their plugins folders if they’re sharing their cities (Plugin folder is necessary to get the cities working well). 
    3. To make it possible the cities authors would put their cities in a “Sharing files websites” to be downloaded by the cities solicitors, today there are a bunch of websites that can do it.  
     

    What do you think?

     

     

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    @PHBSD

    The main reason for not allowing cities to be hosted on the STEX is the file size. We have made exceptions for vanilla only content cities when the file size is reasonable. As far as sharing the cities via an external host and using the external link option in the STEX upload, I personally don't see a problem with that specific aspect. (That's my own opinion. I'm not setting a policy here as that would need staff discussion.)

    As for sharing the plugins needed to go with said cities, that gets back to requiring the permission of each and every author of every mod and custom content item. This part is why the discussion goes around in circles and may not ever be solved to everyone's satisfaction.

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    Yeah, but I think if someone posts something in STEX they are already admitting that their files are free and sharing cities with their files don't have any problem, one time free is always free in any circumstance.

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    2 hours ago, PHBSD said:

    Yeah, but I think if someone posts something in STEX they are already admitting that their files are free and sharing cities with their files don't have any problem, one time free is always free in any circumstance.

    I'd pretty much stayed out of this discussion since my position on staff might imply my opinion is setting some kind of policy. It is not.

    My personal opinion is similar to yours. However, the tradition has been that permission to share other peep's works other than via posting a linky to wherever it is hosted is forbidden. If you've read thru this entire discussion you'll see some content creators are adamantly opposed to any change in this regard. Since they put in all the hard work of creating said work and expected there would be no change to the sharing policy, this means we are apparently at a dead end for making any change.

    (For my own creations I've stated in various posts here on ST that I give my permission to reuse and/or re-host things I've created. This doesn't help much because I've produced so little and none of it is custom bats. All I require is that I'm given credit should anyone want to use something of mine.)

    A possible way forward could be to set a specific future date when a new policy would be adopted such that any submissions after that date are governed by new rules and by uploading to the STEX the author agrees to said new policy. (Members did agree to keep up with current guidelines when joining this site.) The rules could even be made retroactive with an chance to opt out within a predetermined amount of time. If such a change were made an announcement email would be sent to members to make them aware of it.

    The fallout from such a radical change could be severe. I only present it for discussion. These potential changes are not something that is even being considered by the admins.

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    The distribution of plugins all revolves around the rights of content creators. Whether to a large or small scale, should there be policy amendment in this regard, to any extent it'll be hard to please everyone. The same also applies should nothing happen in terms of a new direction.

    I couldn't agree more something does need changing here, and it's not right for this whole debate to endlessly lead nowhere in particular. Because reading through the previous 11 pages of this thread, over 300 replies later it's adamantly clear there is a push for change. This same conclusion could even be drawn from Page 1. But while it may seem remarkably simple at the forefront, this is understandably much more complex at the core. So as community leaders we face the challenging prospect of trying to make the best and most suitable decision, while balancing people's interests at heart. I therefore feel this may require some sort of compromise.

    However for exactly what this may entail is yet to be determined. Because as @CorinaMarie said above, the precise plan of action is still up for internal discussion, considering the many excellent points raised and still being brought forward in this topic.

    To everyone who has posted here, we're very thankful for your continued input and patience while a solution can hopefully (and eventually) at some stage be established.

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    It should be noted that there are a few things to be noted:

    - If you LOST your plug in folder for whatever reason, it would be very hard if not impossible to re-download everything, especially as downloads are capped in many places.

    - Many people have non-Simtropolis mods, including places that are no longer in service (like SimPEG)

    - The STEX Vol. 1 CD (not a DVD) is no longer available.

    - We can't permanently block re-distribution when a content creator is no longer available.

    - We have to be on the lookout for bad/out of date files.

    I say go for it.

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    On 30.3.2018 at 11:47 PM, Cyclone Boom said:

    So as community leaders we face the challenging prospect of trying to make the best and most suitable decision, while balancing people's interests at heart. I therefore feel this may require some sort of compromise.

    May I ask: to whom exactly the term 'community leaders' is refering to? And if you use the word 'we' - how exactly differs this 'we' from community? As if this 'we' is something closed, on the inside, which the term 'internal discussion' at least suggest, one could think, there are two communities present in your post - an outer community that recieves descissions from the inner community, that makes descission. So maybe, for the outer community it's good to know, who makes the decission about community on the inside or what this inside is in detail. A parliament, a court, a group of elected members like some kind of council of elders? It seems I can't find public information about how this inner circle is organized.

    And if final descissions on the inside have to be approved in some way by another instance - or if this inner part is legislative, executive and judiciary at the same time and therefore makes up the whole community by itself - while people not member of this inner part can't be part of community, as they can't participate in things that settles community. So the 'we' defines community and everybody not being part of this 'we' are 'them', the others, outside of the community.

    So if the term 'community leaders' is f.e. refering to Simtropolis moderators this would mean 'community' is formed by them and everybody else not being a moderator would be some kind of guest visiting this community of moderators. Or am I wrong?

    To me atm, it sounds more like running a business. You know, EA f.e., they ask the players what they want like to see and then they make their descission (on the inside) and present a new game to the public. You can't call this a community. It's the relationship of a company and their customers. The company makes the descissions - more or less (you can't satisfy everybody) in favor of their clients. Imho.

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    3 minutes ago, Fantozzi said:

    May I ask: to whom exactly the term 'community leaders' is refering to? And if you use the word 'we' - how exactly differs this 'we' from community? As if this 'we' is something closed, on the inside, which the term 'internal discussion' at least suggest, one could think, there are two communities present in your post - an outer community that recieves descissions from the inner community, that makes descission. So maybe, for the outer community it's good to know, who makes the decission about community on the inside or what this inside is in detail. A parliament, a court, a group of elected members like some kind of council of elders? It seems I can't find public information about how this inner circle is organized.

    And if final descissions on the inside have to be approved in some way by another instance - or if this inner part is legislative, executive and judiciary at the same time and therefore makes up the whole community by itself - while people not member of this inner part can't be part of community, as they can't participate in things that settles community. So the 'we' defines community and everybody not being part of this 'we' are 'them', the others, outside of the community.

    So if the term 'community leaders' is f.e. refering to Simtropolis moderators this would mean 'community' is formed by them and everybody else not being a moderator would be some kind of guest visiting this community of moderators. Or am I wrong?

    To me atm, it sounds more like running a business. You know, EA f.e., they ask the players what they want like to see and then they make their descission (on the inside) and present a new game to the public. You can't call this a community. It's the relationship of a company and their customers. The company makes the descissions - more or less (you can't satisfy everybody) in favor of their clients. Imho.

    Yes, "community leaders" in this case is Simtropolis moderators, despite the fact that Simtropolis is not the only SC4 site out there (though it is the largest). That's the big question for non-Simtropolis downloads that are in question...

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