CAM Revival Project

[deezedgod 177]

3 hours ago, nos.17 said:

Any plans in place for IRM expansion content? If not I'm up for it - it's actually been on my list for awhile and this would be a great excuse to start.

Go for it! I was thinking about doing it but hadn't done much yet. Even if @T Wrecks never finished the original expansion, I think it's worth going over the lots he did finish. I think it would be fine to go over all of the lots, even the stage 1's, as the capacities generated by PIM-X are very different to the capacities T Wrecks set. They could maybe be organized by creator, like a pack for @tag_one models, @SimGoober models, a misc pack for the rest, and a W2W pack. Optionally you could also include a version "A" and a version "B", as the creator of the IRM CAM version included two versions, one with I-M growing in high density and one where it only grows in medium density.

Still waiting for T Wrecks to come back though.

[Tyberius06 12,189]

4 hours ago, deezedgod said:

Go for it! I was thinking about doing it but hadn't done much yet. Even if @T Wrecks never finished the original expansion, I think it's worth going over the lots he did finish. I think it would be fine to go over all of the lots, even the stage 1's, as the capacities generated by PIM-X are very different to the capacities T Wrecks set. They could maybe be organized by creator, like a pack for @tag_one models, @SimGoober models, a misc pack for the rest, and a W2W pack. Optionally you could also include a version "A" and a version "B", as the creator of the IRM CAM version included two versions, one with I-M growing in high density and one where it only grows in medium density.

Still waiting for T Wrecks to come back though.

@nos.17 one more thing. Last night I was looking for some stuffs regarding T Wrecks and on the SC4D Forum I ran into a post from @vortext, that the biggest issue regarding camifying the IRM is that T Wrecks used a small 2*1*2 occupant size dummy building for most (if not all) of the LOTs. Now that would mean, that the lots can not be just recomputed with PIM-X, the buildings actually need to be replaced with the real models. Or new building exemplars needs to be made from scratch and then the lot config data from the original lots would be possible to copy over to the new lots. Anyhow that's a bit more involved process. At least we have blockers for all of his IRM lots, so if a CAM-IRM project would go forward, that wouldn't be an issue.

[deezedgod 177]

4 hours ago, Tyberius06 said:

@nos.17 one more thing. Last night I was looking for some stuffs regarding T Wrecks and on the SC4D Forum I ran into a post from @vortext, that the biggest issue regarding camifying the IRM is that T Wrecks used a small 2*1*2 occupant size dummy building for most (if not all) of the LOTs. Now that would mean, that the lots can not be just recomputed with PIM-X, the buildings actually need to be replaced with the real models. Or new building exemplars needs to be made from scratch and then the lot config data from the original lots would be possible to copy over to the new lots. Anyhow that's a bit more involved process. At least we have blockers for all of his IRM lots, so if a CAM-IRM project would go forward, that wouldn't be an issue.

I believe this is only true for the original IRM pack. I've CAM-ified some of the IRM expansion lots and they all use the model for the building. The only thing you need to watch out for is that some lots contain additional buildings as props, so make sure to calculate those too.

[Tyberius06 12,189]

35 minutes ago, deezedgod said:

I believe this is only true for the original IRM pack. I've CAM-ified some of the IRM expansion lots and they all use the model for the building. The only thing you need to watch out for is that some lots contain additional buildings as props, so make sure to calculate those too.

Hm... I checked the expansion, and you're right. They are indeed based on the models, which is actually pretty good. I don't know about the situation with the w2w expansion, but I assume it has the same building base approach as well. Which means they can be turned to CAM/PIM-X'd versions easily. With a lots of work, but kind of easily. I'm looking forward to see what you are coming up with this project @nos.17 

[nos.17 5,120]

@deezedgod @Tyberius06 thanks for all the information. I think I will go with the A and B version to maintain full compatibility with the rest of Shadowstrike's lots. And I do agree that I will include lots with non-CAM stages because the occupants indeed are dramatically different. I would like to make as few packs as possible, so for now I'm just going to start with W2w and non-W2W groups.

[atreides_99 16]

I want to thank all the modders who decided to update the building CAM, as well as the author of this topic for his idea and implementation (Diego building CAM packages). I don't know how to make mods myself, but I would like to ask you dear modders to assemble a CAM CIVIC building, if possible... It's just that the size and volume of schools, universities, hospitals and police are just small for CAM cities. I would like that and work has been going on in this direction. And then those civic buildings that are by default in CAM 1 and CAM 2 do not satisfy the demand of the population of a large city built with CAM mod. Would like to have CAM civic buildings that can meet the demand in CAM cities.  With a large population served.

Iwant to wish all modders success in your work on the updated buildings of the CAM mod!

P.S. I apologize for my bad English, I hope Google translate correctly conveyed my thoughts...

[rsc204 21,808]

So recently I got into a similar discussion regarding the Cap Relief provided by the various Maxis Parks, which are essential to keep demand going for larger cities:

But there is a problem with doing the same thing for Civics too, which is that you can't simply modify these values and update them. If you alter such things, they really should only be used in new regions/cities, otherwise they can cause big problems. It is possible to delete all existing instances BEFORE installing the mod, but few people are willing to do this and that also leads to the potential for problems if you accidentally miss one. CorinaMarie did come up with a novel solution to this problem as part of the ModPac project she and CycloneBoom are working on, which is to make the modified ones new objects, rather than replace the originals. Whilst I totally understand that this is clearly more user friendly to begin with, my personal philosophy is that in the long run you are better off just accepting it takes a little work to integrate such changes. CAM itself should only be used in new regions, so it strikes me both upgraded Civics and Parks would be better included with CAM, even if only as optional mods, to begin with.

All that aside, you are right that this is another missing element that ideally needs to be rectified, I would be happy to make the necessary modding changes to CAMify all the schools and hospitals, it's not so much work. But since I don't use CAM, again there is a question of just how high these values should increase that may take some testing/feedback to get right. I have to say past experience here is that no one is likely to assist in that regard, which rather makes this a difficult request to fulfil. Because if you just mod everything to extremes, you haven't so much CAMifyied it, so much as created a bunch of cheat lots.

[atreides_99 16]

5 hours ago, rsc204 said:

So recently I got into a similar discussion regarding the Cap Relief provided by the various Maxis Parks, which are essential to keep demand going for larger cities:

But there is a problem with doing the same thing for Civics too, which is that you can't simply modify these values and update them. If you alter such things, they really should only be used in new regions/cities, otherwise they can cause big problems. It is possible to delete all existing instances BEFORE installing the mod, but few people are willing to do this and that also leads to the potential for problems if you accidentally miss one. CorinaMarie did come up with a novel solution to this problem as part of the ModPac project she and CycloneBoom are working on, which is to make the modified ones new objects, rather than replace the originals. Whilst I totally understand that this is clearly more user friendly to begin with, my personal philosophy is that in the long run you are better off just accepting it takes a little work to integrate such changes. CAM itself should only be used in new regions, so it strikes me both upgraded Civics and Parks would be better included with CAM, even if only as optional mods, to begin with.

All that aside, you are right that this is another missing element that ideally needs to be rectified, I would be happy to make the necessary modding changes to CAMify all the schools and hospitals, it's not so much work. But since I don't use CAM, again there is a question of just how high these values should increase that may take some testing/feedback to get right. I have to say past experience here is that no one is likely to assist in that regard, which rather makes this a difficult request to fulfil. Because if you just mod everything to extremes, you haven't so much CAMifyied it, so much as created a bunch of cheat lots.

I'm not sure if your comment is directed at me. But a 2-fold increase in the number of schoolchildren and patients would be enough for me. For example, large elementary school accommodates 3299 students, it would be possible to make 6600 (well, or at least 6000), large high school accommodates 4949 students, it could be increased to 9900 (well, or at least up to 8000). Large medical center accommodates 3299 patients, could be increased to 8000 patients. While maintaining the default coverage radius, and of course, increase the cost of service in proportion to the increase in the number of students / patients. If all this of course would be possible? In general, it seems to me that an increase in the number of students and patients served in a building by 1.5 or 2 times is quite justified, subject to an increase in the cost of maintenance and the price of building construction. I just don't know if it's possible to use third-party mods that increase the volume of civilian institutions in CAM, if this will break the statistics of the game in the CAM mod ... Or ready-made civics buildings that are not camelots ... As for the number of students / patients, there are commercial CAM buildings with a capacity of more than 7,000 people. Logically, if there are CAM industrial buildings and CAM housing and trade, then civics buildings should also be a CAM building. Thank you for your answer. P.S. If your comment was not addressed to me, then I may have made a mistake, I apologize for that.

[rsc204 21,808]

5 hours ago, atreides_99 said:

I'm not sure if your comment is directed at me.

Yes absolutely.

5 hours ago, atreides_99 said:

But a 2-fold increase in the number of schoolchildren and patients would be enough for me.

This is the complication, because ideally you want to find a set of values that work for all CAM users. If I consider the approach used for Transit Stations more recently, the starting point is the highest or maximum that people might need, although that's probably less important in this case. But a lot of CAM users have cities with a million plus sims and some have many millions, so it's trying to find a value that fits for as many of those as possible. This is especially important if you are increasing the costs and related properties in line with the increase in capacity, because you don't want to make them too expensive just to cover the more extreme users. Although that's mitigated somewhat, since you can reduce funding levels, so it's not as big a problem as it might otherwise be.

What I wouldn't want to do, is create multiple versions of each lot, all with different capacities, it ideally needs to be a one-size fits all solution. Because changing between them is going to be a headache for a lot of users, I've made similar mods in the past and they tend to get overlooked, because people find the installation a bit annoying or intimidating. So offering lots of different versions has the potential to create problems. My best guess would be a starting point of around 3x the original values, this is the same methodology I used with the CAMPR mod. But without some feedback from people creating cities that would need such modified facilities, it's really more an educated guess than any certainty it will cover users requirements. You also have to consider that some people are more tolerant of placing multiple facilities than others, who may prefer as few Schools and Hospitals taking up valuable real estate as possible. That said, if that really bothers you, then there are custom buildings out there which would be more suitable. If I've understood things right, the idea here is that you'd use a similar number of such civic buildings as a player without CAM, only that they would have sufficient capacity to handle the increased population, rather than having to have many more such buildings to achieve the same thing.

@nos.17:
Not sure how helpful this is, but I did make CAM updates to the original IRM addons, although as per this post I'm not sure it's hugely significant for the minor outbuildings etc. But if you wanted to roll this together with any additional content, you are free to make use of it how you see fit.

[nos.17 5,120]

On 12/4/2022 at 4:49 PM, rsc204 said:

@nos.17:
Not sure how helpful this is, but I did make CAM updates to the original IRM addons, although as per this post I'm not sure it's hugely significant for the minor outbuildings etc. But if you wanted to roll this together with any additional content, you are free to make use of it how you see fit.

Yes thank you! This will be immensely helpful. I will likely bundle these in with the rest of the lots I do, obviously crediting you for these parts.

[deezedgod 177]

On 12/5/2022 at 4:49 AM, rsc204 said:

This is the complication, because ideally you want to find a set of values that work for all CAM users. If I consider the approach used for Transit Stations more recently, the starting point is the highest or maximum that people might need, although that's probably less important in this case. But a lot of CAM users have cities with a million plus sims and some have many millions, so it's trying to find a value that fits for as many of those as possible. This is especially important if you are increasing the costs and related properties in line with the increase in capacity, because you don't want to make them too expensive just to cover the more extreme users. Although that's mitigated somewhat, since you can reduce funding levels, so it's not as big a problem as it might otherwise be.

What I wouldn't want to do, is create multiple versions of each lot, all with different capacities, it ideally needs to be a one-size fits all solution. Because changing between them is going to be a headache for a lot of users, I've made similar mods in the past and they tend to get overlooked, because people find the installation a bit annoying or intimidating. So offering lots of different versions has the potential to create problems. My best guess would be a starting point of around 3x the original values, this is the same methodology I used with the CAMPR mod. But without some feedback from people creating cities that would need such modified facilities, it's really more an educated guess than any certainty it will cover users requirements. You also have to consider that some people are more tolerant of placing multiple facilities than others, who may prefer as few Schools and Hospitals taking up valuable real estate as possible. That said, if that really bothers you, then there are custom buildings out there which would be more suitable. If I've understood things right, the idea here is that you'd use a similar number of such civic buildings as a player without CAM, only that they would have sufficient capacity to handle the increased population, rather than having to have many more such buildings to achieve the same thing.

Personally I've never minded the original Maxis capacities, as the way I play the game, I use the Maxis civics for small/medium sized cities and just use custom content for larger cities. I'm not sure if 3x'ing everything will still make it balanced for smaller cities without feeling like cheater lots, but considering the Maxis civics by default are pretty weak, it might be fine.

I'm planning on starting a new CAM region soon so I could test how it works in a real game. (I'm also planning on trying out CAMPR as well.) If you want to go through the trouble of making these, it would be greatly appreciated.

[nos.17 5,120]

Just finally finished with the IRM lots. The Expansion, W2W Expansion, ID-Addon, and IM-Addon are all included. It took me significantly longer than I was expecting because I somehow talked myself into doing quadrupled versions as well. I'm pretty happy with how the stages turned out - its a pretty decent distribution I'd think.

It's not quite ready for upload yet as I want to put together some cleanitol scripts for removing and finding missing dependencies, and also experiment with some kind of script for downloading the dependencies. I have a count of 100+ unique dependencies for everything and that's basically a non-starter for someone to download from scratch, or even just a subset of them.

[deezedgod 177]

On 12/19/2022 at 2:33 AM, nos.17 said:

Just finally finished with the IRM lots. The Expansion, W2W Expansion, ID-Addon, and IM-Addon are all included. It took me significantly longer than I was expecting because I somehow talked myself into doing quadrupled versions as well. I'm pretty happy with how the stages turned out - its a pretty decent distribution I'd think.

It's not quite ready for upload yet as I want to put together some cleanitol scripts for removing and finding missing dependencies, and also experiment with some kind of script for downloading the dependencies. I have a count of 100+ unique dependencies for everything and that's basically a non-starter for someone to download from scratch, or even just a subset of them.

Looks great! I think a script for downloading dependencies would make it so much more accessible, so please share your progress. I was thinking of doing the same but couldn't wrap my head around a user-friendly way to do this on all platforms (Windows/MacOS/Linux).

[Ulisse Wolf 4,412]

I wonder if it will be possible to create a CAM Patch for SPAM

[nos.17 5,120]

20 hours ago, deezedgod said:

Looks great! I think a script for downloading dependencies would make it so much more accessible, so please share your progress. I was thinking of doing the same but couldn't wrap my head around a user-friendly way to do this on all platforms (Windows/MacOS/Linux).

I was thinking that one of the first things that should be checked is whether or not the user already has a required dependency because the more we can reduce the amount required to download the better. Cleanitol is a good tool for that, but it uses filenames to search for things meaning it does have some significant drawbacks. It's no good if you have your plugins datpacked, and its also no good if you happen to change the name of any of the files the Cleanitol script references (I know I've changed file names on at least a few dependency mega packs to standardize some names like x mega props - vol 01 and x mega props - vol2). That should be able to be remedied relatively easily with a new Cleanitol program version that is able to scan the plugins folder for specific TGIs instead of file names. The LEX does have an API that I believe you could use to set a user's download list - after that you'd have to manually download and extract everything, but its a start. That obviously doesn't help for ST-hosted files. That's about as far as I have thought through things so far.

 

 

2 hours ago, ulisse said:

I wonder if it will be possible to create a CAM Patch for SPAM

I see no reason it wouldn't be possible. Just did a little digging - if you skip the SPAM controller and just look at the lots you'd seemingly just need to remove some occupant groups. Haven't actually verified or tested though. Apparently @InvisiChem did put some effort into this awhile back but ultimately nothing came of it:

Quote

InvisiChem: I was working on a deal with the PEGPROD team to merge the SPAM into the CAM. Unfortunately, we could not come to an agreement to make that happen. (source)

Quote

APSMS: Efforts have been made to reconcile the SPAM with the CAM, but it appears that the gap between PEG and the BSC might be too great.

The PEG caretakers and InvisiChem were unable to find a way that would properly allow use of the SPAM and still maintain PEG's vision for the project. Additionally, I think there was an effort to incorporate some of the SPAM concepts into the CAM, but the jury is out on whether or not that's a feasible idea. Basically it requires a rethink of both, and we want to be careful not to step on the toes of PEGPROD, since Pegasus introduced the concepts so many years ago (things like water and powerless farms, reduced pollution, Industry type farming to satisfy job requirements). (source)

This was nearly 7 years ago though, so I don't know what has changed since then. If no one else is interested I am certainly willing to spend some time on this in the next few months.

[Ulisse Wolf 4,412]

16 hours ago, nos.17 said:

I see no reason it wouldn't be possible. Just did a little digging - if you skip the SPAM controller and just look at the lots you'd seemingly just need to remove some occupant groups. Haven't actually verified or tested though. Apparently @InvisiChem did put some effort into this awhile back but ultimately nothing came of it:

In the various discussions on discord (SC4Devotion and Simtropolis) it was concluded that CAM should incorporate IRM and SPAM by creating a single RCI mod. 

SPAM was born during a period of tension and self-centered of the people involved, but now we are at the end of 2022 and many of these people are no longer around. So I think it's time to officially bury this feud and start creating the best RCI Mod that exists for SC4 and I think using CAM incorporating IRM and SPAM is the best choice for everyone.

[atreides_99 16]

On 04.12.2022 at 10:02 PM, atreides_99 said:

I'm not sure if your comment is directed at me. But a 2-fold increase in the number of schoolchildren and patients would be enough for me. For example, large elementary school accommodates 3299 students, it would be possible to make 6600 (well, or at least 6000), large high school accommodates 4949 students, it could be increased to 9900 (well, or at least up to 8000). Large medical center accommodates 3299 patients, could be increased to 8000 patients. While maintaining the default coverage radius, and of course, increase the cost of service in proportion to the increase in the number of students / patients. If all this of course would be possible? In general, it seems to me that an increase in the number of students and patients served in a building by 1.5 or 2 times is quite justified, subject to an increase in the cost of maintenance and the price of building construction. I just don't know if it's possible to use third-party mods that increase the volume of civilian institutions in CAM, if this will break the statistics of the game in the CAM mod ... Or ready-made civics buildings that are not camelots ... As for the number of students / patients, there are commercial CAM buildings with a capacity of more than 7,000 people. Logically, if there are CAM industrial buildings and CAM housing and trade, then civics buildings should also be a CAM building. Thank you for your answer. P.S. If your comment was not addressed to me, then I may have made a mistake, I apologize for that.

Hello, I found an article where the creator of CAM himself, RippleJet, writes that any civil buildings with a large volume can be used.  After reading the article, I realized that I was mistaken, believing that the downloaded modified civilian buildings somehow affect the work of CAM, you can safely download them.  In this connection, my request probably loses its meaning.  I apologize for my mistake.  I attach the link to the article itself below https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?&topic=15578.0

 

Thank you for your attention to my question.

[rsc204 21,808]

On 21/12/2022 at 10:14 PM, ulisse said:

In the various discussions on discord (SC4Devotion and Simtropolis) it was concluded that CAM should incorporate IRM and SPAM by creating a single RCI mod. 

Why? They are three separate mods that can work independently or in certain combinations together, what are we really improving by just bundling stuff together because three downloads are less than one?

Not to mention it is one thing to simply take the SPAM lots and perhaps with a few Properties altered use them for CAM, but quite another altogether to actually bring the SPAM modifications into the CAM. If there was a failure to gain agreement, I would not be surprised to hear of PEG (or most modders frankly), not being particularly keen to have all the modifications that they considered better to be wiped out and just their content grabbed and repurposed.

In any case, I really think anyone of this opinion should ask themselves why they would be doing this? After all, CAM itself is not meant to be a ModPack, it changes all the Maxis content to fit with CAM, allowing users the option of playing without needing any additional content. That was a pretty key part of CAM's development and to force IRM and SPAM into that surely goes against such. Similarly CAM is dependency free, but if you add these mods as standard, this would no longer be the case.

Coming back to my first thoughts on this, since you can just download the CAM version of IRM and if one existed, a CAM-ified set of the SPAM lots, should a given user want either mod, what's really being gained by integrating them together? Sure many people might like to use some combination of the three, but not everyone necessarily would. For example the range of farms provided by the Colossus Farming Mod by Fantozzi is an excellent option, that I would like to one day make work with SPAM. Likewise Paeng made an alternative relotting of Industrials (probably not CAMPatible - although easy to fix), his Industrial Facelift mod. I personally think such contrasting mods should be kept as separate entities, this isn't like bundling together a set of many similar or themed buildings into a single pack or combining multiple dependencies together. These are exactly the kinds of huge game-changing mods that are IMHO better assessed and installed as separate entities.

On 13/01/2023 at 9:18 AM, atreides_99 said:

Hello, I found an article where the creator of CAM himself, RippleJet, writes that any civil buildings with a large volume can be used.  After reading the article, I realized that I was mistaken, believing that the downloaded modified civilian buildings somehow affect the work of CAM, you can safely download them.  In this connection, my request probably loses its meaning.  I apologize for my mistake.  I attach the link to the article itself below https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?&topic=15578.0

I agree that what RippleJet meant was that there was no general incompatibility between CAM and any custom Civic Downloads, just the usual Caveat that if they were not specifically designed for CAM, they may not be suitable in terms of the capacities necessary to support CAM populations.

However whilst many links to custom content and even some mods for the Maxis Civics exist, I still feel a set of modded Maxis Civics specifically intended for CAM users is a good idea. Certainly from what I've seen it would be better to have Parks, Plazas, Civics and other such Maxis content updated for CAM and included as part of CAM. Because installing these changes later, having installed CAM, as we know is both a PITA and more complicated than is ideal. Whereas since CAM pretty much requires a new region to use, if you have these modifications from the outset, you'd never run into all those problems.

[Dizzle28 12]

So has anyone CAMified @Mattb325 content yet? I see that he says that his lots are CAMpatible but his max growth stage is 8. So does that mean I just need to change the values in the Reader or do I need to do the whole thing with PIM-X. I don't mind doing it and posting it here when I am done.

[twalsh102 1,601]

@Dizzle28, strictly speaking, all CAMpatible means is that it will work with CAM (i.e. there is nothing in any exemplar that will break CAM).

This is different than being optimized for CAM. Buildings/Lots that have been CAMifed (or are considered CAMelots), on the other hand, use modifiers to create stats that are optimized for use with CAM. Technically speaking, anything created with PIM-X (even if the filling degree is not modified) is considered optimized for CAM because PIM-X creates stats that are optimized for CAM.

In direct answer to your question as to what needs to be done for any @mattb325 content, it depends on the tools he uses to create his content (I don't remember reading anything, anywhere, specific about this). If he used the Maxis LE to create his content, you'll want to re-do it using PIM-X. If he used PIM-X to create the content, and just downgraded the Growth Stage to be nothing greater than 8, well, you'll still need to use PIM-X to determine the correct Growth Stage. Doesn't look like he's visited here since 04/22, and hasn't been active at SC4D since 06/22 so probably can't ask him.

 

[rsc204 21,808]

6 hours ago, twalsh102 said:

@Dizzle28, strictly speaking, all CAMpatible means is that it will work with CAM (i.e. there is nothing in any exemplar that will break CAM).

I hate to nitpick, but not for the first time in this thread I have to disagree with this sentiment.

CAMpatible is not a real word, it was created to mean something very specific, i.e. a mod that was designed and modded to be optimised for use with CAM. As you say, most content will work regardless, but only when it's been designed specifically with CAM in mind, should we be using the term 'CAMpatible'. I think there is confusion on this because people see the combination of CAM and Compatible and assume it to mean compatible with CAM, rather than designed for CAM. Consider for a moment that the former literally covers every single mod out there, i.e. doesn't represent anything requiring further classification, therefore logically the only reason to make up a new term to describe something, would be to differentiate between the two. In other words:

CAMpatible or CAMeLOT = Optimised for CAM, anything else is simply a regular Lot, which of course can be used with CAM.

6 hours ago, twalsh102 said:

If he used the Maxis LE to create his content, you'll want to re-do it using PIM-X. If he used PIM-X to create the content, and just downgraded the Growth Stage to be nothing greater than 8, well, you'll still need to use PIM-X to determine the correct Growth Stage.

He used PIM-X, in fact it's easy to tell if a lot has been through PIM-X or not, if the Filling Degree property exists, at some point it has been saved in PIM-X.

All you need do is recalculate the Growth Stages, at least in theory, which may not even be necessary for those items with a lower Growth Stage than 8. But since that process will essentially look again at all the stats, you may find it makes other changes, because it's hard to know exactly how each modder works. For example whilst I use PIM-X exclusively for lotting, because it is focused on CAM users, of which I am not a part of, I modify things to better fit with the Maxis content where I feel it necessary. I'm sure I'm not the only one too, whereas for proper CAM use, generally speaking you should stick with the properties PIM-X gives you.

[Ulisse Wolf 4,412]

I had some time and I converted the buildings of AndisART in CAM version in addition to performing a small relotting

 

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I'd just like to reiterate my support for integrating the industrial mods into the CAM for a single RCI mod. I avoid making industrial BATs because of the current situation, and it would be very nice to have one standard to follow.

[nos.17 5,120]

Necroing this thread to mention that the IRM Expansions and Addons (CAM Edition) is now live!

[Fantozzi 4,067]

Let me please point out that  @rsc204stated is abdolutely correct and it's even necessary to understand.

 

PIM-X isn't compatible with CAM 2.1 and most probably never can be. InvisiChem planned to updated it to 2.1 but never did. So PIM-X first of all is only compatible with the original version of CAM.

Above that InvisiChem provided different "flavors" of his CAM version, means he provided different development curves over the 16 grow stages. For each different grow curve you would need adjusted stats for each lot.

Meaning:

For all the different options he offers:

 

"Extended (InvisiChem) – This is CAM 2.1.0 Standard with extended stage ranges for larger regions. The growth I feel is more balanced and lifelike.
 

Standard – Just like CAM 1.0 stages, just the curves have been smoothed out and the range slightly extended.
 

Rural – Stages are set for smaller, rural style growth. Stage 15 can happen, it just will be in very large regions and very infrequently.
 

Midrise – Stages are set to place an emphasis on growing midrise stages. This is similar to the way European cities grow.
 

Skyscraper - Stages have been set to allow Skyscrapers to grow quickly, even in one city regions."

 

STATS AREN'T THE SAME. You would need to mod grow stage and occupant size differently for each flavor as InvisiChem for the basic content did.

 

So - basically - if you want to make custom content really compatible with CAM 2.1 you would had to offer each lot in those five different flavours.

 

I never did. As I played always in extended mode I tried to follow this development curve for long play regions which is very close to the original CAM version's development curve..

 

But then the main problem - to my knowledge InvisiChem never published the necessary stat sheets for those different development curves. So first of all there is no common ground to develop 2.1 campatible lots. This was a major problem when I developed Colossus farming an therefore it was all a guessing.

So first of all you would have to decide for which growing curve you want to mod or for all five InvisiChem has given to us. I recommend the "extended" version as it is the closest to PIM-X by statement of InvisiChem (if I even remember this correctly ). It would mean the other "flavours" can't be supported as it is almost impossible to mod them correctly due to the lack of information on how the are done. Please proof me wrong if you have the stats for this curves. 

 

If every one uses PIM-X for the the extended version of CAM 2.1 it works - roundabout - just fine. But the higher the grow stage is you're modding the more it's terra incognita.

F.e. PIM-X doesn't support farm stages 8-10 at all. As the old version of CAM only had farm stages 1-7. So with pim-x you'll never get grow stages above 6 right for farms as beginning with stage 6 the development curve becomes very different between CAM 1 and CAM 2. And doesn't exist at all starting ith stage 8 and therefore doesn't exist in PIM-X neither, That's why nobody did farms above stage 7 execept of evil anarchist Fantozzi who didn't care and just modded by gut feeling how it could be right. 

[Fantozzi 4,067]

If I remember correctly InvisiChem statet somewhere that the "Extended" version is the closest to RippleJets old stage setting and therefore the "most" closest to PIM-X too. Mainly expanding the grow stages and smoothing out the grow stages 1-5.

Those grow curves of the original CAM are well documented here:

https://www.wiki.sc4devotion.com/index.php?title=CAM/posts

But again, I don't know how those of CAM 2.1 differ to the original as I never did see them documented. Comparing them you would be able to judge how precise PIM-X can work on each grow level. 

[Ulisse Wolf 4,412]

8 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

Let me please point out that  @rsc204stated is abdolutely correct and it's even necessary to understand.

 

PIM-X isn't compatible with CAM 2.1 and most probably never can be. InvisiChem planned to updated it to 2.1 but never did. So PIM-X first of all is only compatible with the original version of CAM.

Above that InvisiChem provided different "flavors" of his CAM version, means he provided different development curves over the 16 grow stages. For each different grow curve you would need adjusted stats for each lot.

Meaning:

For all the different options he offers:

 

"Extended (InvisiChem) – This is CAM 2.1.0 Standard with extended stage ranges for larger regions. The growth I feel is more balanced and lifelike.
 

Standard – Just like CAM 1.0 stages, just the curves have been smoothed out and the range slightly extended.
 

Rural – Stages are set for smaller, rural style growth. Stage 15 can happen, it just will be in very large regions and very infrequently.
 

Midrise – Stages are set to place an emphasis on growing midrise stages. This is similar to the way European cities grow.
 

Skyscraper - Stages have been set to allow Skyscrapers to grow quickly, even in one city regions."

 

STATS AREN'T THE SAME. You would need to mod grow stage and occupant size differently for each flavor as InvisiChem for the basic content did.

 

So - basically - if you want to make custom content really compatible with CAM 2.1 you would had to offer each lot in those five different flavours.

 

I never did. As I played always in extended mode I tried to follow this development curve for long play regions which is very close to the original CAM version's development curve..

 

But then the main problem - to my knowledge InvisiChem never published the necessary stat sheets for those different development curves. So first of all there is no common ground to develop 2.1 campatible lots. This was a major problem when I developed Colossus farming an therefore it was all a guessing.

So first of all you would have to decide for which growing curve you want to mod or for all five InvisiChem has given to us. I recommend the "extended" version as it is the closest to PIM-X by statement of InvisiChem (if I even remember this correctly ). It would mean the other "flavours" can't be supported as it is almost impossible to mod them correctly due to the lack of information on how the are done. Please proof me wrong if you have the stats for this curves. 

 

If every one uses PIM-X for the the extended version of CAM 2.1 it works - roundabout - just fine. But the higher the grow stage is you're modding the more it's terra incognita.

F.e. PIM-X doesn't support farm stages 8-10 at all. As the old version of CAM only had farm stages 1-7. So with pim-x you'll never get grow stages above 6 right for farms as beginning with stage 6 the development curve becomes very different between CAM 1 and CAM 2. And doesn't exist at all starting ith stage 8 and therefore doesn't exist in PIM-X neither, That's why nobody did farms above stage 7 execept of evil anarchist Fantozzi who didn't care and just modded by gut feeling how it could be right. 

Just these days I have started the work for CAM 2.5 which requires modification of PIM-X values, so I am gathering any information to create a clean version of CAM with all the patches. This thing requires the modification of PIM-X values. 

To make a comporation between CAM 2.1 and CAM 1.0 we can efect it only by crossing Growth Stage Threshold (I am attaching the xmls file of CAM 2.1) Maybe we can best configure PIM-X to support CAM 2.1 although however I noticed that there is not much difference between CAM 1.0 and CAM 2.1 (Extended Version)

Growth Stage threshold - Extended.xlsx

[Peter_One 1]

Was wondering if any update on a new CAM?

[Ulisse Wolf 4,412]

12 hours ago, Peter_One said:

Was wondering if any update on a new CAM?

It will be available when it is completed. For the time being, there is no ETA

[PIPICécé 49]

Just a question, is it good to datpacking the CAM files mod in the SimCity_1.dat or it will bug the game after a moment ?