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19 hours ago, BartonThinks said:

I'd be interested to see those experiments, if you have the links available off-hand. I tried searching through Cori's "Best of" list, but didn't see anything, and I had little luck Googling for either thread.

That said, I did just run a few tests that don't seem to match what you're saying. I started a large city tile and zoned a single, 1x2 residential lot in one corner (which grew a 1x2 R$ home), then wrapped a long, L-shaped street and a set of power lines along the edge of the tile, running to the opposite corner. Following this, I tried plopping a coal plant or an elementary school in this corner to see if Sims would willingly commute to either of these jobs. In both cases, Sims took the jobs, despite the commute.

Interesting to see your experiments here, too, @BartonThinks, which yielded different answers compared to my experiments.  Thank you for sharing your findings!

I think I should adjust my terminology.  This is about job preference.  Job preference is a better term than desirability, which is an SC4 term already in use to describe land, landmarks, parks, etc.

In my case, my smallest experiment on civic job preference involved a sim population of several hundred, with a variety of civic jobs on offer, and low unemployment, so that sims have choices, leaving the lowest preference jobs as positions vacant, identified using Route Query.  My larger experiments are difficult to reproduce, being in the context of an established city.  I'll have a think about how to create structured experiments, but I'm stressed and busy IRL at the moment.

The focus of my experiments, is how to use Civic jobs to prime avenues/highways for building commercial prosperity (Customers) exactly where I want it to happen, rather than just relying on highway/avenue funnels of inter-community and inter-city traffic.  Civic positions vacant doesn't increase Customers along key commute traffic routes, only positions filled (determined using Route Query) increases Customers, so I'm highly motivated to make sure that Civic jobs really are filled.

One of my discoveries, is that a route that involves backtracking amplifies job preference differences.  I presume that's simply commute time travelled, but haven't yet verified that it's a simple commute time factor.  Certainly commute time appears to be a bigger factor in job preference than distance as the crow flies, which is surprising in light of these words from Cori:

On 17/07/2021 at 3:34 PM, CorinaMarie said:

All tests I've done indicate that the game first picks a potential job for a Sim as the crow flies and only then does it hand it over to the traffic controller to see if they can get to said job in a reasonable amount of time. What the Simulator Z of NAM essentially does is tweak the look ahead variable of the algorithm to a much greater distance as well as tells it to pick the quickest route rather than the shortest.

The comparison, in the elementary school case, is between a school (with the same funding) having just 2 sims working there, versus having 7 or more sims working there, depending upon slightly more direct commute access to residential, in competition with other Civic plops ... again, this is measured by Route Query.

  • The most extreme example in my experience is the Museum, which seems to be the one Civic building most likely to have no one working there at all, if sims have other employment options at a similar Medium commute.  Museum workers seem to distinctly prefer a Short commute.
  • The opposite extreme example are the Airports, the Civic buildings most likely to have many sims working there at a Long commute.

Utility jobs and Museum jobs seem to rank at a similar low level of job preference, at a Medium commute.

Cori's experiment was comparing commute and job preference between industrial and commercial.  Do you still have a linky to that experiment, @CorinaMarie?

The possible factors of job preference are many:

  1. Distance as the crow flies.
  2. Commute time.
  3. Commute route backtracking vs direct.
  4. Commute by mass transit vs car.
  5. Match of wealth ($,$$,$$$) and education (EQ1, EQ2, EQ3, EQ4).
  6. Public employment sector (eg. Airport, Police, Health, Education, Utility).
  7. Public civic employer (eg. Museum vs University).
  8. Private employment sector (I-Ag, I-D, I-M, I-HT, CS, CO).
  9. Private employer wealth (e.g. CS$ vs CS$$$).
  10. Undesirable factors in sim's residential neighbourhood, contributing to their decision to vacate or dilapidate.

Getting back to the origin of these discussions of job preference, was @TheMurderousCricket's dilemma about encouraging R$ sims to take agriculture jobs.  In my experience, I-Ag workers very distinctly prefer a Short commute, which fits perfectly @CorinaMarie's tendency to create farming hamlets, a strategy I've also found very successful for getting farm workers.  I haven't tried @TheMurderousCricket's scenario of inter-city I-Ag workers yet. 

Logically, item 3 from the above list shouldn't be a separate factor from item 2, but it seems to be a separate factor.  That seeming might be an illusion ... I haven't ever completely isolated that variable.  Other correlations from the above list may also collapse in on each other, given sufficient analysis, yielding a smaller set of factors.

Thanks for sharing that sc4devotion page.   I hadn't seen it before, and I've been reading with interest.   RippleJet certainly has the background for knowing this stuff well.  Looking at what he's saying, I-D and I-Ag (aka I-R) job preference is HUGELY influenced by Education.  I wonder if SPAM changes these Workforce Drive percentages?

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    2 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    I haven't tried @TheMurderousCricket's scenario of inter-city I-Ag workers yet. 

    You'll have a chance to examine that yet. My "D" city will probably be a large farmland with few residents, so they will have to be supplied from already existing cities. We'll see if they stop for a job there or throw their silly selves into the ocean.

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    6 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    Cori's experiment was comparing commute and job preference between industrial and commercial.  Do you still have a linky to that experiment, @CorinaMarie?

    I don't find it listed anywhere in my notes files. :O

    Time to call in the professional database search master. Help please, @Cyclone Boom. Terms that should be in said posts would be: Industry (and/or Industrial), Commercial, "bulldoze the road", commuter (or "commute time"), R$, education, and a later post in the same thread would be about when adding a subway.

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    Clickable ---> The Best of Cori's Posts  (scroll down a wee bit there)    Something fun: MySimtropolis - Invitation to become a SimCity 4 MySim

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    2 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

    Help please, @Cyclone Boom.

    *** STATUS: Database Delving Completed! (Code 42) ***

    Thus my mission was successfully successful! *:8)
     

    @Naomi57

    It starts from this question licoricebomb asked inside of Cori's 505 Year Education Experiment thread:

    On 10/1/2017 at 7:09 PM, licoricebomb said:

    This makes me wonder: how close would more desirable jobs have to be for sims to work at them? Or put another way, how far are those sims willing to travel for better jobs before they give up and keep working at the factories?

     

    I've added an anchor link to this part, so that way it jumps directly to Cori's commuting test about the jobs (Linky below).

    What this seems to show is some Sims prefer commercial even at a further distance, but most will take industrial jobs if they're closer. Also scrolling down and there's a follow-up post as well which contains some additional info based on the empirical testing Cori conducted at the time.

    And so without further ado...
     

    Spoiler

    [Linky]

    *:thumb:

     

    Also see this post Cori made for a previous test to this (which is linked from the above Linky). This shows Sims leaving commercial jobs to industrial instead, although we're still not totally sure about whether it's simply due to distance as the crow flies, instead of actually preferring one developer type over another.

     

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    Thanks @Cyclone Boom (and Cori, for running the initial experiment).

    Going over Cori's experiment with the office jobs, I'm coming to the opposite conclusion of @Naomi57. That is, it appears the office jobs are less appealing than they should be, based on the Workforce Drives, rather than more appealing.

    It looks like Cori's city is made up entirely of R$ sims in the 150-200 EQ range. Under the Workforce Drives, the most appealing jobs for these sims are CO$$ jobs (at 67%), and these sims should have no interest in ID jobs. Under these circumstances, I would have expected the following behaviors:

    • That R$ sims would accept the original ID jobs so long as they were below 150 EQ
    • That R$ sims would start to abandon the ID jobs once they surpassed 150 EQ
    • That 150+ EQ R$ sims would leave ID jobs in favor of CO jobs as soon as CO jobs became available, even if the CO jobs had a much longer commute
    • That 150+ EQ R$ sims would keep the CO jobs once the ID jobs were made available again, even if the CO jobs had a much longer commute

    Instead, the 150+ R$ sims seemed happy to accept and/or ID jobs, they had to be forced to switch over to CO jobs with a longer commute, and about half of them abandoned the CO jobs as soon as the ID jobs were made available again. That behavior seems more in keeping with R$ sims from one of the middle EQ brackets (50-100 / 100-150), so I'm curious what's going on here -- but it doesn't seem to be a case of CO jobs having inherently higher appeal than other job types. (One possible explanation: Sims will accept or maintain jobs that match their wealth class, even if the jobs don't match their EQ class, provided the jobs offer a substantially better commute or are the only jobs available.)

    Cori's other experiment with the commercial jobs and the industrial jobs makes more sense to me, provided the sims were below 150 EQ. Under each of the lowest three EQ classes, R$ sims have a higher combined preference for industrial jobs compared to commercial jobs. So it makes sense that some sims would switch to industrial from commercial. Even above 150 EQ, R$ Sims have equal preference for CS$ and IM jobs (apparently there's an error in Ripplejet's table), so some displacement might make sense if the game is trying to balance out the workforce drives.

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    I really suck at this game. :cry: Looks like.

    As mentioned above, the outpour of workers has been reduced to a large extent and I started to rebuild my population. Then, I started to play other cities and ran some time.

    Unfortunately, when I returned to the main city, I discovered that the outpour of workers resumed and about 3000 of them leave the town again in search of work. :dead:

    This generally happens as soon as the population in the main city surpasses 200 000. Guess there are simply not enough jobs at that level.

    Another puzzling thing is that my CO$$ plummeted when I started to redevelop the city. What is actually the thing that drives demand in that area? Feels like I need to provide jobs but can't due to negative demand in a very attractive sector!

    Oh, and by the way - all of my CO$$ areas are located near busy routes and have high customers. *:yes:


    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    15 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I really suck at this game. :cry: Looks like.

    As mentioned above, the outpour of workers has been reduced to a large extent and I started to rebuild my population. Then, I started to play other cities and ran some time.

    Unfortunately, when I returned to the main city, I discovered that the outpour of workers resumed and about 3000 of them leave the town again in search of work. :dead:

    This generally happens as soon as the population in the main city surpasses 200 000. Guess there are simply not enough jobs at that level.

    Another puzzling thing is that my CO$$ plummeted when I started to redevelop the city. What is actually the thing that drives demand in that area? Feels like I need to provide jobs but can't due to negative demand in a very attractive sector!

    Oh, and by the way - all of my CO$$ areas are located near busy routes and have high customers. *:yes:

    There are a number of reasons why you might be getting these problems, and we would probably need a lot more detail to diagnose the problem. Cities within a region affect one another's demand drives, growth stages, occupation levels, etc. So if you develop cities independently without keeping your overall region balanced, you can get these big swings in behavior. It's even possible to trigger these changes by simply opening up a city that you've ignored for a while and running it for long enough that the simulator catches up with all of the other changes you've made in your region.

    Here are just a few possibilities for why sims might now be unemployed in your main region:

    • Sims in City A who were employed in City B may have lost their jobs when you or the simulator made changes in City B.
    • Sims in City A who left to search for work in City B may have found no available jobs and abandoned their search when you re-opened City A.
    • Sims in City B might have started competing against Sims in City A for jobs, causing unemployment to drop in City A.
    • Large numbers of Sims in City A or City B may have been replaced by new Sims with lower education levels if you had large areas redevelop. This would cause the workforce drives to change.
    • The proportion of R$ / R$$ / R$$$ sims in your region may have changed, causing a shortfall or surplus of workers for certain classes of jobs.

    As far as running into a wall when your main city hits 200,000 population, that could simply be due to demand caps. The game has built-in caps that stop demand from exceeding certain levels, even when conditions should allow for this demand.

    The best one-stop resource for leaning about about how demand and demand caps work is the Prima Guide (which may have already been suggested in this thread). The section on demand starts at page 64 and the sub-section on demand caps is on page 72. The short explanation is that neighbor connections, freight shipments, and certain types of buildings will raise these caps. In large cities, you will typically need "Cap Busters," which provide significant cap relief.

    Regarding CO$$ specifically, there are a few factors potentially at play. One factor which you've touched on is the desirability of the land itself. Traffic is definitely a plus for CO, but it's not the only factor in desirability, and it's a less important factor than for CS. Again, the Prima Guide is the best resource here -- the section on desirability starts on page 94. Here are the desirability factors for CO buildings:

    • Radiation (none)
    • Air pollution (low)
    • Crime (low)
    • Garbage (low)
    • Land value (high)
    • Traffic (high)
    • Proximity to other CO businesses
    • NIMBY / YIMBY effects

    NIMBY / YIMBY effects are buildings that either encourage certain types of buildings or discourage them. For example, plazas have a positive YIMBY effect on commercial businesses. Business deals like the Federal Prison have a negative NIMBY effect.

    Another possible factor here is the education levels in your city and/or region, which will impact workforce drives. Highly educated sims love office jobs, but they don't appeal to sims with limited education.

    As mentioned above, one area where this can be a problem is when cities redevelop, which can dramatically lower the education levels of the workforce. You can spend 50 years increasing a sim's education level, but if the building where they live gets redeveloped, they will be replaced by a brand new sim with a much lower baseline education level. If your city's average education level has taken a bit drop recently, that could trigger a lack of workers for CO businesses and cause them to abandon. This could also happen if an adjoining city had its average education level drop, if the sims in that city were employed at your CO businesses.

    The short-and-simple version of this post would just be: give the Prima Guide a read. I've gone through it twice myself -- once when I was just learning the game, when it helped me figure out the basics, and then a second time when I was more experienced and could understand the nuances of the guide a little better. Any time you're hitting a wall like this, I think going through the guide can be helpful.

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    20 minutes ago, BartonThinks said:

    Large numbers of Sims in City A or City B may have been replaced by new Sims with lower education levels if you had large areas redevelop. This would cause the workforce drives to change

    This sounds like the most probable explanation. Indeed, there were no quarters that I would leave intact...

    Before I made any changes the CO demand was really high and the buildings themselves healthy and developing quickly (parks work wonders).

    I already managed to lift the CO$$$ demand up as it was ailing too. I also took a brave, if controversial, decision to remove some of the industry (no willing workers :sly:) and have some uneducated Sims settle there instead. They readily took the nearby I-D jobs with no complaint and no job-hunting outside of "City A".

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    33 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    This sounds like the most probable explanation. Indeed, there were no quarters that I would leave intact...

    Before I made any changes the CO demand was really high and the buildings themselves healthy and developing quickly (parks work wonders).

    I already managed to lift the CO$$$ demand up as it was ailing too. I also took a brave, if controversial, decision to remove some of the industry (no willing workers :sly:) and have some uneducated Sims settle there instead. They readily took the nearby I-D jobs with no complaint and no job-hunting outside of "City A".

    Yeah, even these days, this is something I sometimes have trouble managing. I have a ton of patience when building up cities early on, but unless I'm playing in a city where I'm really invested in it, there's a point where I tend to get restless and start developing and/or redeveloping too quickly for the city to keep up. The larger the city and/or region, the harder it is to keep everything in balance. And there's always the risk of a chain reaction where you redevelop too heavily, run into problems, and then redevelop some more to try and balance things out, only to cause new problems.

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    9 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Before I made any changes the CO demand was really high and the buildings themselves healthy and developing quickly (parks work wonders).

    I already managed to lift the CO$$$ demand up as it was ailing too.

    Good one!  *:thumb:

    11 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I really suck at this game. :cry: Looks like.

    As mentioned above, the outpour of workers has been reduced to a large extent and I started to rebuild my population. Then, I started to play other cities and ran some time.

    Unfortunately, when I returned to the main city, I discovered that the outpour of workers resumed and about 3000 of them leave the town again in search of work. :dead:

    This generally happens as soon as the population in the main city surpasses 200 000. Guess there are simply not enough jobs at that level.

    Not at all.  Given how long you've been playing, you're way ahead of where I was at that point in my SimCity 4 gameplay.  Just the fact that you've produced this city in your screenshot, without using any demand mods, means you're doing well.

    On 17/07/2021 at 3:57 AM, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Now for the screenshots...

    As you can see in take #1, the Sims pour out through this road here:

    examp1.jpg.2e8a77908027dce70938f4be7fa36b5f.jpg

    Aside from SC4 mayors here having many years or decades of experience, also note that some screenshots you see here on ST are Plopmatic/Eye Candy cities, or they are using demand mods, or some other mod that makes things easier.

    I don't usually develop with an eye to population numbers, but I totally agree with you that it gets harder to grow a city as it gets bigger.   My focus is on creating an urban paradise where my sims are HAPPY ... which requires a stable economy, balanced pollution control, easy commute to preferred jobs, etc.  Economic scissoring effects take a nasty toll on a city, which you can see on this Jobs & Pop graph from the horizontal red brace below, between 1 and 2.  That's a danger signal, and at the time (last year), I abandoned everything else I was doing in order to sort that out.

    5fd44552e8d31_JamaicaBay-Jobs-PopatJuly109.png.da9cf7c0dd19157e07bb2a18bd58b505.png

    OTOH, the red arrow points to a transfer of R$$ to R$$$ population as a result of a tax rate adjustment.  Notice that the R$$ population had a V-shaped recovery, on account of my zoning and re-zoning efforts on their behalf.  ^_^  That V-shaped economic downturn does take a bite out of accumulated EQ & Health, but the city tends to recover well.  It's ongoing economic scissoring that causes long-term grief.

    My largest single city population was 345k, and it happened because I was just slowly tweaking and growing and improving the city (and it's neighbours) over time.  Without demand mods, a city cannot be pushed to grow, it must be coaxed.  That 345k city still had room to grow, but I was keen to move on to a different region by then.  Here's some of the reasons why it grew above the 200k mark:

    1. Even at it's maximum population, that one biggest city was still just half the population of the entire region.
    2. It had five developed small neighbour cities, with highway and heavy rail neighbour connections ... which just happens to lift demand caps.
    3. It had various Civic plops for lifting demand caps.
    4. It was a large city tile (256x256) ... comprised of various communities/boroughs, with highway connections between.
    5. It was a balanced city of stark contrasts, with a mix of sectors R$, R$$, R$$$, I-Ag, I-D, I-M, I-HT, CS, CO.
    6. Pollution was contained.
    7. Traffic troubles were resolved.
    8. Masses of mass transit.  :ooh:
    9. Traffic routes made sense for taking sims to their preferred workplaces.  An easy and enjoyable commute for them each day.
    10. Inter-community highway commute traffic, within the large city tile, was milked as economic opportunity by commercial zones.

    The first two reasons above, are a couple of the most important reasons why it grew well.  Have you considered how many neighbour cities you have here which are prosperous on a smaller scale?  Maybe this large city of yours should simply be a less prosperous neighbour to an even bigger city?

    If you want to read about that 345k city of mine, I write about it in this post, which is a good "primer" on economic growth (alongside the Prima Guide).  *:D

    8 hours ago, BartonThinks said:

    I have a ton of patience when building up cities early on, but unless I'm playing in a city where I'm really invested in it, there's a point where I tend to get restless and start developing and/or redeveloping too quickly for the city to keep up. The larger the city and/or region, the harder it is to keep everything in balance. And there's always the risk of a chain reaction where you redevelop too heavily, run into problems, and then redevelop some more to try and balance things out, only to cause new problems.

    Yea, that happens to me, too.  *:yes:

    I have got rather good at balancing large chunks of development/redevelopment, by virtue of using Cheetah speed to test and refine a couple times (or sometimes a dozen times), and fine tuning the redevelopment before running the city for real.  Even then, it's not unusual for the city to wobble a bit before it recovers.  On a couple occasions, this process of recovering after an ambitious change, has taken me a few weeks in real time to get it all sorted out.

    In my earlier days, I had some cities that never really did recover.  :boggle::nyah:

    9 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I also took a brave, if controversial, decision to remove some of the industry (no willing workers :sly:) and have some uneducated Sims settle there instead. They readily took the nearby I-D jobs with no complaint and no job-hunting outside of "City A".

    Yep, that's it, you've got this!  *:ohyes:

    Even now, recovery after a "wobble" period in the city's economy often involves compromises or tweaks on my original vision.  As annoying as those compromises can be, it's actually a key part of why I love the game.  :ooh:

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    Thanks for your reassuring words @Naomi57. I feel uplifted now, knowing that there are advantages to my planning and style of play.

    Yes, that’s true – I was very happy to build this city and eager to see how much population I could get, then break that record. My highest “score” here was 250 000 citizens, but that was the moment where unemployment problems became totally rampant.

    My demand bars are, indeed, in the vanilla mode. Thank you again for your nice words in regards to this. There’s a certain feeling of lingering pride in the back of my head now that I did it without applying some kind of a "doping" to it. Besides, I heard that demand mods tend to completely derail the game. The sole, shining exception to this would be the SPAM mod, which glorifies agriculture, nurtures it and is balanced enough as not to wreak havoc in other game mechanisms!

    Well, maybe I don’t outright “suck” at this game. There are, however, some social-economic factors that I could perhaps control better. *:)

    12 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    also note that some screenshots you see here on ST are Plopmatic/Eye Candy cities, or they are using demand mods, or some other mod that makes things easier.

    I must admit that my current project is indeed all about placing cities in particular spots on the region map, IAW the source material and only there. Apparently, this is bound to cause some problems when clashed with the rules of the game.

    This is why the “eye candy” protocols would probably work better for me and got the job done sooner. :uhm: But that sort of gameplay would be akin to stacking (empty) beer cans – boring. I want to have some fun and randomness while developing this region too! And I'm not limited by the city architecture or composition either - only the shape of the cities.

    To recap on the first point there, regarding the farm desirability - the overpowered MMPs do not work in the long-run as a desirability augmentation. I ran the clock and the farms next to busy roads will still deteriorate after a few months. The MMPs do eradicate the pollution as indicated in one of my oddities entry, but it looks like they are unable to override the detrimental effects of the traffic as such.

    12 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    Even now, recovery after a "wobble" period in the city's economy often involves compromises or tweaks on my original vision.

    Hehe, yeah, but this again greatly comes down to the point of either making that compromise or being faithful to your source material (whatever it may be). I actually don’t mind having residential areas pop up in my heavily industrialized district, because I wanted to redevelop this area anyway. Long story short, all I care for as far as fidelity is concerned is to put cities where they belong and retain the shapes they have. But it is easy for me to imagine someone unwilling to make that compromise for whatever other fidelity-related reason!

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    2 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    My demand bars are, indeed, in the vanilla mode. Thank you again for your nice words in regards to this. There’s a certain feeling of lingering pride in the back of my head now that I did it without applying some kind of a "doping" to it. Besides, I heard that demand mods tend to completely derail the game. The sole, shining exception to this would be the SPAM mod, which glorifies agriculture, nurtures it and is balanced enough as not to wreak havoc in other game mechanisms!

    ---

    This is why the “eye candy” protocols would probably work better for me and got the job done sooner. :uhm: But that sort of gameplay would be akin to stacking (empty) beer cans – boring. I want to have some fun and randomness while developing this region too! And I'm not limited by the city architecture or composition either - only the shape of the cities.

    A couple of things to respond to here...

    One other demand mod that doesn't break the game is CAM. On the contrary, it makes significant improvements to the demand curves. Also, rather than making the game easier, it actually makes the game slightly more of a challenge (at least in terms of taxation and income). To my mind, that challenge is part of the appeal, but even if you prefer the built-in difficulty of the Vanilla game, I would argue that CAM's improvements to the demand curves and growth stages are easily worth it, and you can always start by playing the game on a lower difficulty level to acclimatize yourself to CAM.

    Unfortunately, CAM is pretty widely misunderstood as only useful for skyscraper cities. That's far from the case, and the current version of CAM (2.1.0) actually includes the options of multiple play styles, such as a rural mode that actively discourages larger buildings.

    Instead, the four main changes made by CAM are as follows:

    • It re-balances the demand drives to allow for smoother, more realistic city development. This includes sustained development of agriculture beyond what's available in the base game. Unfortunately, CAM and the full SPAM mod are incompatible, since both of them change the way agriculture works. That said, there are ways to mod the game to have a mix of CAM and SPAM features.
    • It adds new growth stages to smooth out the way certain stages develop. For example, in the Vanilla game, a stage 8 skyscraper could be 25 stories or 125 stories. This leads to really chaotic high-density areas. CAM extends the growth stages so that there's a much smoother and more realistic transition at these upper stages.
    • It slightly lowers the base tax rate to make the game more challenging. This is simply in terms of building a balanced budget. (Other areas, like the challenge of balancing your RCI numbers, should actually be easier with CAM, since the re-balanced drives help smooth out some of the game's buggier demand behaviors.)
    • In the 2.1.0 version, it gives the player the choice between four play styles: Standard, Rural, Midrise, and Skyscraper. The last three options favor low-density, mid-density, and high-density growth stages respectively, while maintaining the game's overall balance. This way, players can choose to build American-style sprawl, European-style cities, or highly dense cities similar to places like Hong Kong.

    ---

    I'm 100% with you about being resistant to "cheating." For example, I only use the "moolah" cheat for test cities, and if I'm badly in need of cash, I force myself to take a loan (at this point, I can usually get strong ROI from the loans, even with the high interest rates).

    That said, I also 100% encourage other players to "cheat" to whatever extent it allows them to play the game according to their own personal style.

    I also have the same habit of wanting to build certain styles of cities and regions, even when they run counter to the game's built-in mechanics. It's one of the reasons I'm such a big fan of CAM. There are also certain features of the game which to me feel like in-game "cheats" that I avoid as much as possible. For example, sticking a power plant in a corner so that 75% of the pollution disappears into the abyss.

    As you get more experienced with the game, there are two things that become a lot easier with this style of play:

    1. You learn to work around the game's built-in limitations and some of its less realistic behaviors. This can be really helpful if you're trying to build a certain type or style of city that doesn't quite fit with the game's default mechanics. Over time, you learn certain tricks and development patterns that work within the game's default behaviors, or you figure out ways to get around these problems -- like knowing how to structure networks and place transit stations so that these stations are actually used. At the same time, you start to identify certain things that just plain don't work, so that you know which features to avoid.
    2. You can figure out how to combine different mods or develop your own mods that change the game's behavior without reducing the difficulty level. As a very simple example, when I'm building late-19th century cities, I will substantially reduce the speed of automotive traffic, especially freight. This causes sims to prefer walking and/or transit, while making rail much more preferable to industry. I might also increase the power cap so that my cities don't require a power station. At the same time, I might reduce the base tax rate to compensate for how much easier it is to balance a budget without the need for power stations. With this kind of approach, you can bend the game so that it's more in keeping with your personal style, but without reducing the challenge of the game.

    As a final note, I'd encourage you to get invested in the region you're building right now, but it's very unlikely that this will be your only region. Any player you've seen who's built a massive, multi-city region or a gorgeously manicured City Journal has undoubtedly reached their current skill level through trial-and-error in other regions. So while there's every reason to make this region as good as you can make it, you don't need to pressure yourself into making this region your masterpiece.

    --

    Edit: Guess that wasn't the final note after all, lol. If the traffic and/or air pollution from the traffic is what's ultimately killing the farms, I think the best thing to do is simply spread the traffic and fields out so that they aren't all along the main road. Try this:

    • Build a road along the bank of your river that intersects with your existing main road near the base of the bridge. You already have part of this road built on the west side of your city tile.
    • Create a wide grid of streets that branch off of both of these roads so that you have something like a large checkerboard pattern extending up from the river.
    • Space the farms out throughout this checkerboard so that the jobs (and traffic) are spread across the area. Space them out as evenly as possible to avoid choke-points by workers and freight. If necessary, leave a buffer along the main roads to prevent dilapidation.
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    @BartonThinks, thanks a million for such an elaborate and relevant post! I truly appreciate that you invest your time to share your knowledge and help me advance my projects! Deep respect. :yes: To all of you Guys!

    CAM is indeed a spot on the modding map that I've been tempted to visit but it is such an elaborate mod, that I'd rather not to at the current time.

    I still have to learn a thing or two about the NAM itself, so I don't want to, as we say in my country, "catch two magpies by the tail". I also think I would not have enough time to actually reconcile CAM and SPAM. That's an issue. I wouldn't even know where to begin, plus, I really like the way SPAM works for me. The winged piggy just stole my heart, but don't tell anyone. :wub:

    Hmmm, so you say some things tend to intuitively get easier the more one plays? Perhaps. But apart from being resistant to cheating, I am also quite resitant to knowledge and learning from mistake. *:thumb: If I were to pick one of the game's limitations that I'd like to be able to root out, it would definitely be the mechanism of job-hunting.

    Thank you for the farmland advice! To be honest, I am adamant as far as the city shape is concerned, so I will definitely not use your suggestions in "City A". *:P But! This will be a very valuable material in "City D". The farmland town I mentioned a few posts above. I've bookmarked your input for use in this city.


      Edited by TheMurderousCricket  

    Removed some repetitions
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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    <<< German , so excuse my English. I forgot the most over the Years. Sad, if you cant spell a Language every Day.

    Feel free to ask away, i´ll answer any Questions you are asking for. But you must be warned, i bite ;-)

    URL: https://simforum.de/index.php?forums/18/

    Oliver

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    1 hour ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Hmmm, so you say some things tend to intuitively get easier the more one plays? Perhaps. But apart from being resistant to cheating, I am also quite resitant to knowledge and learning from mistake. *:thumb: If I were to pick one of the game's limitation that I'd like to be able to root out, it would definitely be the mechanism of job-hunting

    You might want to go back and re-read this thread to see whether or not that's actually true. *:)

    If you reach the point where you'd like to give CAM a try, feel free to ask for quick advice on making it work with SPAM content. There are a few different ways to make that happen, depending on which SPAM features you want to keep. CAM itself is a lot less complex than it might seem from a gameplay perspective, but I definitely support a learn-things-bit-by-bit approach.

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    🚜 Get well soon, Cori! 🚜

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    Sadly, I am up against another serious problem.

    For reasons unknown to me, the number of R$$ and R$$$ citizens is gradually dropping in "City A". I had a population of 206 000 people after the redevelopment and it decreased to the level of 198 000 citizens. On the graphs, it truly looks as if the medium and high wealth population was simply trickling away from the city. It's terrifying to watch...

    gradual.jpg.92c0970acd2c5d72e77fc7d4fae3d7e6.jpg

    I even ran the clock for some time, making no changes to the city to make a simulation of sorts. Here are my findings:

    1. The mid and high-wealth population will continue to plummet for 10 years.
    2. After 10 years, the R$$$ population will stabilize
    3. After 15 years, the R$$ population will more or less stabilize. Then, become wobbly again.
    4. In 20 years the population will reach a level of 186 000 citizens. :(

    I do not understand what is happening. I thought my commercial demand has stabilized in the years after the redevelopment, until I found out that CS$$$ and CO$$$ demand, time and again, experiences sharp drops. The CO$$$ demand rebounds only after 40 freaking years!!!

    When analyzing this whole, lousy situation, the following elements are (I think) interesting and quite conflicting when you consider the plight I am in:

    1. The overall education level is very high, nearing 190.
    2. Life expectancy is 90 years.
    3. Residential demand on all bars is well above 4000.
    4. Some of the residential areas have poor health ratings, despite being in three hospital ranges. :lost:
    5. Most of the residents are aged 51 - 60.

    Any new suggestions? :dead:

    EDIT: @Naomi57, I have read your 345k primer, but I'm positive my city does not have any of the commerce "silent killers" in it. If there is anyone being killed out there, it's the R$$+ population.


    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    Ok, I relaxed a bit and started thinking instead of panicking. You can probably scratch most of the text above and read through my refined theories below:

    1. I noticed the R$$+ desirability decreases.

    2. The demand is there but there are simply few places that are attractive enough to R$$+

    3. Any new R$$$ developments, gradually loose "available slots" as a result of point 1. Start 140/152. Few months ahead 60/152.

    4. My school and hospital grades are low in many residential buildings, despite them being fully covered by hospitals as well as elementary and high schools. Opera house bug...? :boggle:

    5. I have a feeling that something was interfering with my NAM. I renamed the NAM folder to "a_NAM" just to make sure.

    6. R$ population is rock-steady no matter what. Some good news at last!

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    To me, it sounds like this might be happening:

    • Demand spikes for R$$$ and R$$ after some commercial and industrial development
    • There's a ton of available real estate, so R$$$ and R$$ develop quickly, outpacing what the city can sustain, and displacing a bunch of existing sims
    • If the displaced sims are healthy and highly educated sims, the new sims will reduce the average education and health levels in these areas/the city, since new sims have not yet received any education or health services
    • The replacement of highly educated sims with less educated sims causes the workforce drives to change in favor of less educated workforce classes
    • The new, less educated workforce drives have less demand for CS$$$ and CO$$$ than currently exist in the city, causing the demand to become negative
    • The negative CS$$$ and CO$$$ demand reduces the amount of R$$$ and R$$ jobs available at these types of businesses
    • Loss of jobs for R$$$ and R$$ sims causes negative R$$$ and R$$ demand
    • Some of the R$$$ and R$$ abandon and are either left vacant or degrade when lower-wealth sims move in, which causes a further drop in education levels, leading to a further loss of CS$$$ and CO$$$ demand (this creates a feedback loop that goes on for a while)
    • The newly vacant and/or degraded homes cause a loss of desirability in some of your R$$$ and R$$ neighborhoods, which causes more abandonment, which triggers even less desirability and further abandonment (another feedback loop that worsens the problem)
    • Eventually, the feedback loops end, and the city stabilizes
    • With the city stabilized, sims remain in place, which allows education and health levels to rise again
    • After a couple more decades, education levels have reached the point where CS$$$ and CO$$$ demand are restored

    Bear in mind that if you ran this on cheetah speed, you might have extended the amount of years it takes for the city to stabilize. Some parts of the simulator update less frequently on cheetah speed to reduce CPU usage. This means that wobbliness that might be stabilized in a few months on turtle speed can take a few years to sort itself out on cheetah speed.

    Also, a note on health and education that I've alluded to above but might be helpful to explain in more detail. Sims need to stay in place for several years to get the benefits of health and education services. Each time a lot redevelops, it's treated as if a brand new family has moved in, and they've never received education or health services. If you keep them in place for 20 years while providing these services, they'll become smarter and healthier. If the lot redevelops again three years later and new sims move in, you're back to square one.

    The baseline education and health of sims when they move in depends on two things: the wealth level (richer = healthier, better educated) and the current education and health levels in your city. So if you improve education and health levels in your city, the new sims that move in will be healthier and better educated than in a city with low education and health levels. But if you have a lot of turnover and redevelopment, it takes much longer to build your education and health levels, and you can create a revolving door situation in which everyone who moves to your city shows up with three different types of tuberculosis and ends up dying before they've been taught the second half of the alphabet.

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    8 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    4. My school and hospital grades are low in many residential buildings, despite them being fully covered by hospitals as well as elementary and high schools.

    The two are likely intertwined. When the game refuses to increase the health in a residential building that also greatly limits the amount of education they can accrue within their shorter lifetimes.

    Additionally, with regard to health, I've had similar troubles where certain residential buildings simply will not gain good health even with 3x clinics touching them adjacent and one directly across the street. I've never really nailed down the cause for that, but I do suspect that the prevailing pollution (both water and/or air) at the time of zoning is baked into those parcels.

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    Chance favors the prepared mind. ― Louis Pasteur  
    Remember, a few hours of trial and error can save you several minutes of looking at the README. -- I Am Devloper (on Twitter)

    Clickable ---> The Best of Cori's Posts  (scroll down a wee bit there)    Something fun: MySimtropolis - Invitation to become a SimCity 4 MySim

    Are you new here? Check out the Introduction and Guide to Simtropolis.

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    1 hour ago, BartonThinks said:

    There's a ton of available real estate, so R$$$ and R$$ develop quickly, outpacing what the city can sustain, and displacing a bunch of existing sims

    I use Cori's NKO so that cannot be the case.

    Like I said, the available mid/high residential slots just dwindle day by day, and the buildings are not being replaced or redeveloped.

    1 hour ago, BartonThinks said:

    Loss of jobs for R$$$ and R$$ sims causes negative R$$$ and R$$ demand

    Wrong. My R demand in this city is positive all across the $, $$, $$$ spectrum! It's probably the desirabilty that's ailing.

    1 hour ago, BartonThinks said:

    Some parts of the simulator update less frequently on cheetah speed to reduce CPU usage.

    That's an interesting point. I did not realize it could work that way!

    1 hour ago, BartonThinks said:

    a revolving door situation in which everyone who moves to your city shows up with three different types of tuberculosis and ends up dying before they've been taught the second half of the alphabet.

    The life expectancy of my citizens is 90 years. Sure enough to learn the alphabet? Or not? *:P

    1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

    I've never really nailed down the cause for that, but I do suspect that the prevailing pollution (both water and/or air) at the time of zoning is baked into those parcels.

    That's very bad. *:( It sounds like a bug to me.

    I managed to find some information alluding to the fact that the Opera House building is bugged and decreases learning quality across the city. There is even a fix .dat for this! I plan to try it when I get back home.

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    2 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I use Cori's NKO so that cannot be the case.

    Like I said, the available mid/high residential slots just dwindle day by day, and the buildings are not being replaced or redeveloped.

    Wrong. My R demand in this city is positive all across the $, $$, $$$ spectrum! It's probably the desirabilty that's ailing.

    That's an interesting point. I did not realize it could work that way!

    The life expectancy of my citizens is 90 years. Sure enough to learn the alphabet? Or not? *:P

    That's very bad. *:( It sounds like a bug to me.

    I managed to find some information alluding to the fact that the Opera House building is bugged and decreases learning quality across the city. There is even a fix .dat for this! I plan to try it when I get back home.

    Ah, that's all helpful to know. If the demand is there for R$, R$$, and R$$$, then local desirability may be the root issue. It could also be a lack of adequate jobs for the sims in question, but you'd be seeing "no job" zots if that were the case, and I'm guessing it's a desirability thing based on the rest of your post.

    Regarding the NKO -- that will prevent higher wealth sims from kicking out lower wealth sims, but it doesn't prevent lots from upgrading to a new growth stage, which allows sims to kick out other sims of the same wealth level. E.g., if an R$$ stage one lot upgrades to an R$$ stage 2 lot, the residents of the stage one lot are kicked out and replaced by new residents for the stage two lot. So this behavior can sometimes reduce education within the same wealth class. That said, it sounds like the Opera House might be the culprit.

    I've had the Opera House Fix in my plugins for so long that I don't think I ever fully learned about the effect of the original bug. I knew the capacity was too low, but I didn't realize it triggered a massive education and land value penalty if the capacity was exceeded. If you've got the Opera House in your city but don't have the fix installed, then everything you're describing makes sense.

    One quick note: The description for the Opera House Fix fails to mention that you must bulldoze any existing Opera Houses you have in your cities before you install the mod. This is mentioned in the ReadMe, but it can be hard to miss.

    P.S. Even if they don't learn the rest of the alphabet, it sounds like your citizens have plenty of time to figure out the first half.

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    Here is a mini-contingency plan that I devised. Feel free to evaluate it:

    20210722_150937-1.jpg.8fdddfeb513730b30acdeb3000720a6f.jpg

    1. Another glance on prima guide leads me to conclusion that double the amount of hospitals does nothing to improve desirabilty (as long as that one hospital you actually keep is adequately funded).

    2. Self-explanatory.

    3. Make subway straighter and farther apart if needed. Alleviate the distance between stations with bus connections.

    4. If there is one subway station in any 6x6 "quarters", then the entire quarter becomes a park (or civic buildings hub).

    5. Another prima guide idea. I wasn't aware that CS feel best if they are next to their target customer groups.


      Edited by TheMurderousCricket  

    Reduced image size as it was far too large
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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    Ummm... Guys? :nyah:

    Turns out it was all opera house's fault!

    Opera house. Just that!!

    The moment I have destroyed this abomination, I instantly regained control of my city!

    The population of "City A" has spiked by 20 000 people, most of whom were R$$+:

    rebound.jpg.e9f8b554ee332d3c9176a6294d5d571d.jpg

    Now, take a look on R$$$ desirability levels with opera house still around:

    opera.jpg.717766d2860d96232fca096c1f920ec0.jpg

    And after the vermin has been obliterated:

    60f9d1310cd8a_noopera.jpg.896e1f42157bcfd58f5d973fe6790913.jpg

    Again, it was just the opera house's fault! This #*@&$@ "reward" has almost destroyed the city I worked over so hard and for so long!!

    This is a very baaaaad building. An evil building. Infrasound? Karman Vortex? Or maybe katabatic winds? I don't know... but there are certainly bad vibes coming out of there...

    @BartonThinks - Do not be curious. Never, ever get rid of that fix plugin...

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    So now that everything is back to normal I have some more interesting and welcome challenges to deal with.

    I've got that I-D district which employs quite a number of people. However, the I-D demand is negative.

    Would you bulldoze/redevelop the area and sack the people, or would you just leave them alone?


    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    9 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I've got that I-D district which employs quite a number of people. However, the I-D demand is negative.

    Would you bulldoze/redevelop the area and sack the people, or would you just leave them alone?

    Low demand is not necessarily a problem, unless you're wanting to grow more I-D.  Low demand for I-D doesn't necessarily mean your existing factories are not profitable; it just means that new I-D buildings won't grow.

    For me, I-D provides four primary advantages:

    • Great employer of low education low wealth sims.
    • Very profitable at a high tax rate.
    • If you want twice as many factories in a city, I'm pretty sure that I-D has completely separate demand calculations from I-M.
    • Perfect for a grungy look, for a touch of realism or contrast between neighbourhoods.

    It's not that unusual for me to grow a bit of dirty industry (I-D) early in the life of a city, in a very carefully chosen location, and then push the I-D tax rate up to 20%, and leave them there, usually with a buffer of civic plops between the dirty industry and the rest of the city.

    e.g. From west to east below, I-D, then Civic plops and landfill, then I-M and R$, then CS$ and R$$.
    5fc9dc1fd6bb0_PowerwaterbufferforI-DandRplan.png.38b8375e7478ee0dd4b2b6dd542ec84f.png

    20% tax on dirty industry is a money spinner. It helps to pay for a Water Treatment Plant, and dirty industry generally tolerates high taxes ... the only sector that generally tolerates a 20% tax rate.

    Using the query dialog, if a dirty factory vacates, I might bulldoze it and let a manufacturing (I-M) factory grow in it's place.
    Using the route query tool, if a factory is humming along without employing any of my sim residents, I might decide to dezone or bulldoze some of the dirty industry that is closest to other parts of the city.

    Note, while manufacturing is fairly tolerant of high pollution, it won't tolerate the extreme levels of pollution that dirty industry thrives in.  Dirty industry is happy as a pig in mud with high levels of pollution.  Under the same conditions of high pollution, I've found manufacturing tends to grow and vacate, grow and vacate.

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    1 hour ago, Naomi57 said:

    Dirty industry is happy as a pig in mud with high levels of pollution.

    :rofl:

    But let's get to the point.

    Like you said in the past in one of the initial posts in this topic, I want the best for my Sims. This is why I am tempted to dezone I-D which pollutes and shortens lifespans. Now that the demand is negative, there seems to be a good moment for it.

    However, the installations there provide jobs. One of them employs 1000 Sims, others, 200 on average. That alone stops my dozers in their tracks.

    I have some idealistic redevelopment plans for this area of my city in which it becomes a R$ + I-M + I-HT neighborhood. But it just seems there is no suitable moment to commence this change! :lost:

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    22 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    I am tempted to dezone I-D which pollutes and shortens lifespans. Now that the demand is negative, there seems to be a good moment for it.

    Absolutely, good thing to do.  Just don't bulldoze your dirty factories all at once!  *:no:

    If your R$ sims are becoming better educated, then you can shift them along to work in manufacturing jobs, shops, and low paid clerical office jobs.

    60f3a2d47f5b0_WorkforceDrives-RippleJetonST.png.380fcb8671620831726e96f480129930.png

    23 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    However, the installations there provide jobs. One of them employs 1000 Sims, others, 200 on average. That alone stops my dozers in their tracks.

    I have some idealistic redevelopment plans for this area of my city in which it becomes a R$ + I-M + I-HT neighborhood. But it just seems there is no suitable moment to commence this change! :lost:

    You definitely want to do this gradually, and strategically determine which areas will stay I-D for now, and which areas you want to gradually replace the I-D factories with something else.  For me, that something else is usually I-M factories, which provide better jobs for better educated R$ sims, but sometimes I want to completely rezone the old dirty industry districts for an entirely new purpose.

    If your R$ sims have an EQ above 150, then huge segments of the R$ population can work in CO$$ office jobs.  High-rise and medium-rise office blocks employ large numbers of sims, of every wealth level.

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    6 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    If your R$ sims have an EQ above 150, then huge segments of the R$ population can work in CO$$ office jobs.

    There is no easy way to tell their EQ level though, is there?

    The shift to CO$$+ was my next idea for redevelopment, albeit at an even later stage. *:yes: After the "I-M, I-HT, R$" character that is.

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
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    Hmm, I keep noticing that any traffic near farmlands greatly reduces the agricultural desirability and the number of jobs a farm can offer.

    It's really troublesome as any volume above 100 cars already has detrimental effects on the farm's wellbeing!

    I try to cheat my way around it a bit. I discovered that by placing farm buildings right next to one another, Sims will start their workday at the building that has been constructed first, instead of wondering about the entire area. *:thumb: This reduces unnecessary traffic and funnels it to a single "reception desk" of sorts while all other workplaces work just fine!

    But this is a rather problematic aspect of agriculture nonetheless. @CorinaMarie, do you have any ideas or experiences to share regarding the influence of traffic on farms? Sorry for putting you on the spot - I just know that agriculture is a powerful force in your game and you are a powerful force in agriculture. *;)

    It's strange - SPAM farms can handle pollution well and even landfills, but traffic is hurting them...

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    The "SimCity 4" vanilla Opera House is the most evil thing in existence. Avoid.

     

    My city journals! *:read:
    - SimCity: Tribalism - seven urbanization concepts clashed together
    Saving Magnasanti... - the most depressing city in history being revitalized

    Also worth checking...
    - "TMC's Drawing Board" - my city designs and plans.
     

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    55 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

    Hmm, I keep noticing that any traffic near farmlands greatly reduces the agricultural desirability and the number of jobs a farm can offer.

    It's really troublesome as any volume above 100 cars already has detrimental effects on the farm's wellbeing!

    I try to cheat my way around it a bit. I discovered that by placing farm buildings right next to one another, Sims will start their workday at the building that has been constructed first, instead of wondering about the entire area. *:thumb: This reduces unnecessary traffic and funnels it to a single "reception desk" of sorts while all other workplaces work just fine!

    But this is a rather problematic aspect of agriculture nonetheless. @CorinaMarie, do you have any ideas or experiences to share regarding the influence of traffic on farms? Sorry for putting you on the spot - I just know that agriculture is a powerful force in your game and you are a powerful force in agriculture. *;)

    It's strange - SPAM farms can handle pollution well and even landfills, but traffic is hurting them...

    This is a well-known problem: There are a number of so-called desirability factors, and traffic, well, it has a deep negative impact on desirability for agriculture.

    That can actually be solved. I've attached you a file that will override the SPAM settings in a way that agriculture will simply ignore traffic while leaving all other settings that come with SPAM the way they were. (It will not ignore other effects such as pollution, however.) Please note that you need to make sure that this file will load after all other SPAM files or it will not work. Please also note that I do not know every little modification SPAM contains there, so you shouldn't use this file if you are not using SPAM. You might want to download this one instead: https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2691

    In case you are interested about what to do:

    The exemplar file with the TGI 6534284a-67cd5fa1-00004100 is the Agricultural Zones developer. It controls all aspects related to desirability.

    The property Traffic Effect is what you are searching for. The values there need to be imagined in pairs, with the first value telling the game at which "amount of traffic" the second value, which is basically an added bonus to the default desirability, will be applied. You will notice that with SPAM (but not in the file I've uploaded), the first values are progressively increasing, while the second values are progressively decreasing. To make the game ignore traffic as a potential desirability decreasing factor, you therefore just need to alter the second values in a way that they are all the same.

    Agricultural Zone Desirability Mod.dat

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    11241036 Lotting/Modding Thread - Support for all of my uploaded plugins

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