#20yearsSC4 Challenge - Full Modded | VOTING

[Ulisse Wolf 4,412]

 

#20yearsSC4 Challenge
A tribute to the creativity that gives us to SimCity 4

 

After a long wait we are ready to vote on what are the best images of this competition. The image that has received the most votes will be declared as the winner of the challenge. Same thing for the second and third position. Each user of simtropolis will have only one vote available and therefore people must carefully evaluate which image in their opinion is the best.

Below you can see the images and users who are participating in the challenge

CityNut607 DISQUALIFIED

 

 

EastChapel

 

PlanetOFHats

 

evivas

 

Handyman

 

clonedclone87

 

Kuba138 DISQUALIFIED

 

 

nfwcs

 

Terring

 

Scribosilyn

 

SIM-ple Jack

 

dragonsteincole

 

Pille0503

 

korver DISQUALIFIED

 

Instructions 

Voting is open until 31 March 2013. The following day the winners will be announced

DEADLINE TO VOTING: MARCH 31, 2023

If there are any other questions do not hesitate to ask them here and the scrutineers will be able to answer your questions immediately. I also recommend using hashtags #20yearsSC4 for your creations to celebrate this important birthday of SimCity 4.

Have fun and good building mayors!

 

[Ulisse Wolf 4,412]

IMPORTANT COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHALLENGES COMMITTEE

Unfortunately, this message I am writing is not a good thing as after several complaints we found too many irregularities in the participation of the challenge. 

First, we looked at the date and time that participants posted their images that they posted for the challenges and everything is in order as the system is programmed to automatically lock the thread and vote based on Pacific time zone. Simtropolis does not currently support time zone locking, so it was decided to use Pacific Time as a time zone for content blocking

The second complaint is that people have posted images already posted on forums, discord and reddit. Unfortunately we have found too many irregularities and ambiguities and therefore we are forced to take serious measures

1 Kover is disqualified for reusing images from his City Journal and submitted an edited image to make it look like an original image. (This disqualification is valid only the modded challenge)

2 CityNut 607 is disqualified for using an image from theirs city journal

3 Kuba138 is disqualified for using an image he posted on the forum

Inolte we noticed ambiguous behavior by some challenge members because they posted the images first on discord and then on the challenge thread but we considered it a good faith mistake because it is a few minutes delay between discord and forum

That is why that the committee had to establish new rules that will be effective from the next challenge. Unfortunately, we had hoped that the maturity of the members would allow a challenge to take place without putting too many rules, but we were wrong, so we decided to put more rules to the challenges.

1 Those who want to participate in challenges should read carefully what the challenge requires and how they should do it.

2 The participant must only post original content that has never been posted nor on forums, discord and reddit.

3 The participant when posting the challenge image is prohibited from posting the image on forum, discord and reddit for at least 5 hours

4 Closing of threads and voting takes place at Pacific Time. 

5 Everyone has the right to vote. Including those who are participating in the challenge

6 The person who wants to do Live Streaming and/or video showing the content of the challenge must follow the following rules according to the type chosen

6a The person who is participating in the challenge and is posting the video in this case must post the image first and then can post the video

6b The person who is participating in the challenge but is doing the live streaming is allowed to post the challenge image as long as it is not a screenshot taken from the live streaming.

 

In addition, the following people are invited to vote again:

@CityNut607 @Gavin68 @CdMadero @Kloudkicker @Allein @PlanetOfHats @xDEFCONx @korver @NyackMan @Don'tPoketheBear @Eclipticalstorm @PaPa-J @bhmantan @kazmierski @sejr99999 

 

With this communiqué we can resume voting and have fun with the challenges that will come.

Challenges Committee: @Ulisse Wolf & @Lucario Boricua

 

 

[PlanetOfHats 506]

I don't think it's letting me re-vote.

[korver 27,685]

With all due respect I don't agree with how this is being handled. For starters, there was never a rule anywhere in the modded challenge post about posting existing content, the only "requirements" for this challenge were the following:

Requirements

The requisites to participate in this competition is to have Full NAM or NAM without RHW (No images using NAM Lite are accepted) and other mods are allowed as this competition is reserved for players who have modified even heavily the game. For players want to play SC4 Vanilla with NAM Lite there is a challenge especially for you and you can see it here.

Additionally, posting existing images to various image competitions like the previous iterations of the ST Challenges, ST Picture Competition, and SC4 Picture competition used to be a widely accepted practice. The only regulation was that you couldn't post an image again if it won an event, which was fair. I don't understand why there needs to be such a drastic change in this regard.

Also, it was never my intent to "hide" the fact that I was using an existing image that I posted already by editing it. That makes no sense as I also posted 25 other existing images which weren't edited any further, and as mentioned previously, there were no rules mentioned in the modded challenge description about posting existing images. I added the extra early 1900's postcard effect to really bring out the feeling of being in that era - I had gotten better over the years adding those sorts of filter effects to some of my historical themed images and wanted to add that to the pic to present my best image possible, not to "hide" anything.

Looking back, there was even another image here (which you can still vote on) which explicitly stated in the description that it came from a previously posted CJ, yet absolutely nothing was ever mentioned or done about it, or how that was apparently frowned upon for some reason - I am confused why this is an issue all of a sudden. Overall, these challenges got an okay turnout but it wasn't great and the deadline had to be extended, so I don't see how disqualifying a chunk of the entries and then putting in additional rules to further stifle activity is good at all for these events.

If the challenge committee still believes it's important to have this rule for whatever reason, then actually mention it and enforce it going forward - but in my opinion it's unfair to retroactively disqualify entries which weren't breaking any rules and followed previously accepted principals when they were posted.

[rsc204 21,808]

If I could draw your attention to the following:

On 14/01/2023 at 2:12 PM, Ulisse Wolf said:

The Challenge

The challenge we have decided to give is very simple but at the same time challenging. The challenge is: Creating a beautiful city/landscape using creativity to celebrate 20 Years of SC4

The main purpose is to use the creativity that SimCity 4 gives us to create beautiful cities and / or beautiful landscapes. Here are some examples that you can take inspiration to understand the meaning of competition:

Note specifically the word creating, that was the point of this challenge, to create something (new) using the NAM and mods. If the challenge is to create something, then simply re-posting existing work doesn't meet those criteria.

I get that it perhaps wasn't stated as explicitly as it could have been, but I also feel the intent is conveyed in that sentence.

I'm also going to add, due to the way the poll system functions, there is no way to stop people from voting for their own submissions. Just because you can, doesn't make the fact that five folks in this challenge decided to do exactly that, any less distasteful. Whilst we can't force those running the competition to disregard such votes, I do feel it is only fair that everyone is aware of this information, so that others are no longer able to use it to gain an advantage in the competition.

Note, the staff can see who votes for what, even if I can't name those people who decided to act in what I personally consider to be an underhanded manner. I wonder how comfortable you'd feel acting in this way if everyone knew you were doing it?

[korver 27,685]

If that was truly "the point" of the challenge, then that clearly would have been posted in the requirements section, it would have not been left out. And I don't necessarily agree that just because it said "creating" meant that image absolutely had to be made from scratch since the posting of the challenge and not posted anywhere else. That section was listed away from the rest of the rules and was simply too vague to imply that creating a new image was a requirement of this challenge. Also, I should point out that the "Fully Modded" and "Vanilla" competitions have differing requirements sections:

Fully Modded:

Requirements

The requisites to participate in this competition is to have Full NAM or NAM without RHW (No images using NAM Lite are accepted) and other mods are allowed as this competition is reserved for players who have modified even heavily the game. For players want to play SC4 Vanilla with NAM Lite there is a challenge especially for you and you can see it here.

Vanilla:

Requirements

The only requirement to participate in this challenge is the use of NAM Lite and a Slope Mod. Images with other mods will not be accepted, as there is already a dedicated competition for players who make extensive use of mods.  Images already posted will not be accepted as we are looking for new material created by you to celebrate 20 Years of SimCity 4.

This is pretty clear cut, there was a requirement for the images posted in the Vanilla challenge to be new content, but no such requirement in the modded one.

For people like myself who were under the assumption that I could post an existing image like you could do in the previous ST challenges and other image competition events, I'm being put in a really bad spot because my image is being disqualified mid-challenge and I had no time to come up with anything new. Had the rules been laid out more clearly, I could have used the last month and a half to come up with something original and post it in this competition instead. In any case though, I still don't think it's very fair to retroactively disqualify entries, the new images requirement was obviously not laid out well enough in advance and it should only apply to future challenges.

[Lucario Boricua 7,028]

I'm reading into the whole discussion, and it worries me that we're having this controversial take on the #20yearsSC4 contest.

I admit responsibility as one of the authors of the original set of rules, where I didn't contemplate the potential ambiguity of the original phrasing. 

 

I see these as the possible courses of action, I want to check with the community at large to find the most fair and thoughtful resolution for this dillemma.

1. We continue the challenge upholding the 3 disqualifications issued, and re-do the votes of anyone who chose any of the disqualified entries (current plan, unless we decide otherwise based on public and moderator/admin input).
    
2. We cancel this specific challenge entirely, with winners or disqualifications for it no longer mattering. This one I personally oppose because it means everyone loses.
    
3. Reset the challenge, under the following terms: a) entries which were valid in the original challenge are grandfathered, and can be submitted again. b) Contestants whose posts were disqualified will have time to create new original images (of their authorship, and must not be previously published material). c) A new poll will be started to conduct the voting, and d) No new contestants will be allowed; they're advised to wait for the next challenge. This one takes the most effort and delay, but I personally believe is the most fair course of action. A new deadline for the entry amendments, and a new poll would be created if we proceed with the challenge reset.
    
4. Rescind the disqualifications due to lack of strict clarity in the rules, letting a mix of compliant and non-compliant content compete. This is the no-action option with irregularities. Future challenges will not be subject to this treatment, and instead follow the new rules.

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Future challenges will be subject to rigorous vetting of entries, with a formal procedure to amend non-compliant entries:

1. Entries must be original content created expressly for the challenge. No contestant is allowed to use their previously published content posted on Reddit, YouTube, Twitch, Simtropolis, SC4 Devotion, or their respective Discord servers. The spirit of this rule is to level the playing field, by not allowing contestants to gain an unfair advantage by re-using content known to be highly popular in the past. Screenshots obtained from unrecorded streams are allowed, and are subject to the same publication rules as screenshots posted to forum or instant messaging platforms of the community.
    
2. Recorded and publicly available video and stream content (such as YouTube or Twitch) is to be treated as previously published content for the purposes of the content originality rule. If the recorded content's publication pre-dates the challenge entry, it is not valid as contest entry material.
    
3. Certain challenges will go even further, by providing a designated set of files for use in the challenge itself. Rules for file use in this type of challenge will be prepared on a per-challenge basis, indicating which content is required, permitted, restricted or forbidden, as appropriate. Files which may be subject to this kind of treatment include, but are not limited to: maps/regions, BATs, lots, gameplay-altering mods (RCI, cheats, ordinances, slope mods, non-vanilla utilities, among others), cosmetic mods, modding tools, and NAM versions.
    
4. Any user (contestant or otherwise) who believes an entry is non-compliant must message the organizers privately and present proof of the claimed irregularity. Organizers will validate this claim by verifying the post's non-compliance against the rules of the challenge, and against the rules for original content. They are advised to also contact the contestant whose entry is being questioned. We don't want contestants abusing this procedure to try and disqualify front-runners for their gain--this is cheating.
    
5. Upon reaching the closing deadline for entries, a period lasting 1 week will be provided to verify all entries, and an additional 1 week provided for contestants to amend any entries which moderators find to be non-compliant, or alternatively choose to retract their participation. Once the irregularities are resolved, voting will start, no later than 2 weeks since the closing of the submission period.
    
6. After the contest submission date is reached, contestants may publish their challenge content elsewhere without restrictions, but not before.
    
7. Should there be any challenge expressly allowing previously published content, said challenge will specify it as such. Otherwise assume the content originality rule is in place.

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On the feedback submitted at the time of this answer:

• I appreciate @rsc204's remarks on the challenge rules and their interpretation (making original content for the challenge itself), and the limitations of the voting procedures in the Simtropolis forums poll system. The 1st resolution option (upholding the disqualifications and only voting on the valid entries) is the one best matching this line of thought.
   
• On @Scribosilyn's point, concerning self-voting, I would hope contestants vote for their own entries if they believe they're good enough to be part of the contest. Of course, contestants also have the right to vote for entries other than their own, if they believe them to be better for the purpose of the challenge or contest. I also like that point on the presumption of good faith from the contestants in the face of ambiguity of the rules. The 4th resolution option I'm presenting (rescinding the disqualifications and letting both compliant and non-compliant entries compete, for this contest only) is the one which best matches this line of thought. 
   
• On @korver's point about the ambiguity of the rules, I'll note that 2 other entries, out of the 11 making it to the vote of the fully modded category, also have this issue. The point on the lack of enforcement prior to the closing of submissions is really valid:

Quote

If the challenge committee still believes it's important to have this rule for whatever reason, then actually mention it and enforce it going forward - but in my opinion it's unfair to retroactively disqualify entries which weren't breaking any rules and followed previously accepted principals when they were posted.

 

Seeing only these 3 comments at the time of this posting, I'm inclined to proceed with resolution options 3 (disqualified contestants can re-do their submissions) or 4 (dropping the disqualifications for this challenge only and vote on all the entries regardless of irregularities). Keep in mind that, at the time of this writing, Ulisse and I have proceeded with option 1, but we are still on time to reconsider. I'd like further input before we make our final determination.

I especially want to get the input of the other affected contestants @CityNut607 and @Kuba138, as well as from the other contestants whose entries are still in the race.

[SIM-ple Jack 17,444]

As far as voting for yourself is concerned, I'd wager every politician, actor, athlete or anyone in a competition has done it. Repeatedly. I'd be more concerned with people voting for friends, with total disregard for the quality of the entry. A sub-par entry with the most votes, representing the site.

[CityNut607 622]

@Ulisse Wolf @Lucario Boricua,

I do apologize for posting what I did, as I did not understand that it needed to be a completely new creation. I was under the impression that anything that I have created in past was usable. I did not post that picture to create distrust or make anyone angry. I Thought I read requirements correctly and I misinterpreted the meaning of creative. I am sorry.

 

And yes, I did vote for myself. As @SIM-ple Jack stated, a overwhelming number of people have voted for them selves in such a situation. If that is not allowed, then I will no longer do it. I am willing to re-enter the contest. That is not a problem for me. But please do not have any negative thoughts towards me or my intentions. I honestly thought I was doing what was required. Please understand. 

 

Also, (added after posting)

I have been playing SC4 since it was released, I am here to have fun and continue to do so. I have just recently started to show of my regions and cities, and will continue. 

  Edited March 9, 2023 by CityNut607  
Added comment

[rsc204 21,808]

Do not misunderstand, I too see both sides of this, I would have taken it to mean something new, but I also understand how others might not come to the same conclusion.

Therefore I would personally prefer option three, Reset the challenge. My one concern with that however, those who's original submissions did not qualify, may not feel it's fair unless they have the same six weeks to create a new image. Clearly waiting six weeks to restart this is really not the way to go, any more that cancelling the whole thing or failing to recognise that these submissions were likely without malice given the fuzzy description. So I think if the three users who could argue this would negatively affect them, were to confirm their acceptance of a shortend time, I imagine one-two weeks, to re-submit a new entry, this might be the most ideal solution.

If that's not acceptable, then I suspect option 4 would be preferable to the others and the fairest solution, under the circumstances. Again it's possible for someone to argue things were not level, since it some may have missed potential votes in the intervening period.

I think the opinions that matter most in regards to how to handle this are those who had entered the competition themselves. Ultimately the idea here is to have a friendly activity that showcases some great images that is enjoyable for both the entrants and the wider community. Cancelling the competition would suck and retro-actively applying rules never looks good either. But I hope that people can see we're being transparent here, because none of those 4 options are (or likely could be), perfect. What is most important is that we both ensure that lessons are learned to prevent a repeat of these problems, which I am confident has been addressed. Then we need to decide how is best to continue in a way that is both fair and acceptable to those involved. Again consider this is supposed to be fun rather than taken too seriously, in that  I feel the best people to decide which options they find are fairest, is those who entered the competition themselves:

@EastChapel, @PlanetOfHats, @evivas, @Handyman, @clonedclone87, @nfwcs, @Terring, @Scribosilyn, @SIM-ple Jack, @dragonsteincole, @Pille0503 

Please can you all let us know, should you have any objection to resolving this matter with either of these solutions (3/4):

11 hours ago, Lucario Boricua said:

1. n/a
2. n/a
3. Reset the challenge, under the following terms: a) entries which were valid in the original challenge are grandfathered, and can be submitted again. b) Contestants whose posts were disqualified will have time to create new original images (of their authorship, and must not be previously published material). c) A new poll will be started to conduct the voting, and d) No new contestants will be allowed; they're advised to wait for the next challenge. This one takes the most effort and delay, but I personally believe is the most fair course of action. A new deadline for the entry amendments, and a new poll would be created if we proceed with the challenge reset.
    
4. Rescind the disqualifications due to lack of strict clarity in the rules, letting a mix of compliant and non-compliant content compete. This is the no-action option with irregularities. Future challenges will not be subject to this treatment, and instead follow the new rules.

No judgement or explanation required, you can simply say I don't agree with Option 3/4 or both and that's that. Note anyone questioning or commenting on such things, will be swiftly moderated, you have been warned.

I will take ownership of this on behalf of the site, because problems like this can't be allowed to linger on indefinitely. So everyone I've just pinged has 36h from the time of this post to raise an objection, then a decision will be announced, I am all too aware this is not perfect. Ultimately this matter ideally needs to be resolved ASAP, where possible it would be great to have a consensus to follow that comes from those directly affected by the decision.

[Pille0503 33]

To me it is a pity that the challenge brought up this discussion and that the whole challenge took such a bad direction. The best way to handle all this would have been resolution #2 which is - as far as I can see - no longer available.

The arguments brought up here are very understandable. I also would not have been amused if my entry was disqualified due to a change of rules during the (voting) contest. But I can also see the point in changing them. Considering everything that has been said up until this point, the best solution imao is #4.

[rsc204 21,808]

5 minutes ago, Pille0503 said:

The best way to handle all this would have been resolution #2 which is - as far as I can see - no longer available.

Absolutely not, for absolute clarity we're asking if anyone objects to #3 or #4, but all options are potentially on the table.

Although personally I'd prefer to see a solution that didn't result in abandoning the competition or applied rules retro-actively. My personal feeling is that #3 allows the competition to continue, allowing everyone to have the chance to be involved.

[Handyman 765]

Clearly #4 is the way to go. Big misunderstanding, no malice, no fault. Chill.

[Kuba138 349]

Oh sorry, I thought it was ok to use an older Image for the challenge.

[dragonsteincole 1,397]

My op, since I was tagged:

• I think Option 4 is the best way for this, going forward
• I don't believe anyone was acting in bad faith or with malicious intent. However there can be some clarifications for future challenges to avoid these complications, re: previously used images and editing
• Personally, images that have been edited in any fashion shouldn't be treated as valid for this specific contest or future challenges, unless stated as permissible in the rules. IMO it goes past what is possible with SC4 and mods, which in this case was the main point and context for the challenge
• Voting for yourself should be discouraged in the rules. Whether that is enforceable I'm not sure of

[SIM-ple Jack 17,444]

54 minutes ago, dragonsteincole said:

Personally, images that have been edited in any fashion shouldn't be treated as valid for this specific contest or future challenges, unless stated as permissible in the rules. IMO it goes past what is possible with SC4 and mods, which in this case was the main point and context for the challenge

Since the ultimate goal of these competitions is to present the best image representing the game. who's to say what is edited? Should the grid be on, no image cropping, off-center, a visible dashboard, etc.? The graphics settings for each individual computer- will that be a dis-qualifier? My entry(below) has the minimum amount of editing I put into any image I put on the forum- contrast adjustment, a little color filtering and image sharpening. A couple minutes at most. More work went into making the lot in LE.

 

This is the heavily edited version-

IMO, either one would have been eligible for this contest.

[dragonsteincole 1,397]

To put it bluntly, people are free to choose whatever in-game settings they think best represent the game. I am not making any argument against that fact, I don't believe any of those would constitute "editing". And I don't believe you think that is a valid definition either. And I don't like the implication of your post, that that is what I would try and argue.

I, personally, would not feel hard-done by someone adding their name, or the town/city's name to an image.

I also do not have an issue with someone creating a panoramic image of their town/city and using that. Whilst both are technically "edits" they are not violating or mis-representing what the game is possible of doing.

However, even "a couple minutes at most" of image manipulation is where it crosses into something that should not be eligible, because it doesn't properly represent what is possible within the game with the use of mods, which is the definition of the challenge. You sated that both the images in your post were edited, so IMO neither should be eligible down to that very reason.

Just to state clearly and obviously though - these thoughts are only applicable in the context of this challenge. They do not represent my opinion regarding CJ, screenshots or other images posted by anyone. Outside of the context of this challenge, swing for the fences and post whatever you wish to, I probably think it's awesome.

[PlanetOfHats 506]

I don't think it should matter if the image was used prior, personally, but I also don't feel that strongly about whichever way we decide to go with this thing. Ideally we should try to maximize the number of people who can participate and enjoy doing so.

[Ulisse Wolf 4,412]

Since option 4 is the preferred one, then @Lucario Boricua and I decided to use this option by restoring the disqualified images. We'll create a new thread for voting with all the options, and this thread will be closed.

Regarding discussions about image editing in this competition, this is allowed. Our goal is to celebrate the creativity that SC4 offers us. In this competition we allowed the use of edited images, and we did not establish any written restrictions or prohibitions of it. At this time, we are considering recommendations for new rules on the issue of modified images for future contests. You can see these changes in the Challenges Code of Conduct when they become available.

As Lucario has already reiterated, candidates are allowed to vote for themselves, or for any other contestant. We do not apply any restrictions on the participants of the challenges during the voting phase, because it is a democratic process as in the case of political elections where candidates can vote for themselves or other candidates. Additionally, the voting system in Simtropolis does not allow restricting self-votes, and we believe contestants should be able to express support for their entries by voting, at their discretion.