Additional Public Transit

[andreharv 1,197]

@wasmic I will release the elevated one way stations for metro first only because it seems more fitting for that situation.  AFAIK, heavy rail stations are usually at ground level whereas metro and subway stations are above ground.  Not saying I won't do it, but I will do metro first.

[Tim The Terrible 586]

14 minutes ago, andreharv said:

AFAIK, heavy rail stations are usually at ground level whereas metro and subway stations are above ground. 

You haven't been to Europe then I assume  

[squirrelarmyuk 100]

12 minutes ago, Tim The Terrible said:

You haven't been to Europe then I assume  

Agree completely! Those Victorian era engineers loved to build things high!

[andreharv 1,197]

@Tim The Terrible I have been to several European countries but admittedly, I have only ridden trains in Germany.  I have ridden the ICE and more local stock of or related to the 'DB' series.  To be clear, I am not saying they are nonexistent (remember I used the word 'usually').  I can only go by 'trends' of what I see IRL or online.  If you type 'Elevated Rail' in google, you overwhelmingly see metro and subway lines.  Besides, as I said, I will probably make heavy elevated rail stations in the future but after I make them for metro.

[Delta2k5 311]

5 minutes ago, andreharv said:

@Tim The Terrible I have been to several European countries but admittedly, I have only ridden trains in Germany.  I have ridden the ICE and more local stock of or related to the 'DB' series.  To be clear, I am not saying they are nonexistent (remember I used the word 'usually').  I can only go by 'trends' of what I see IRL or online.  If you type 'Elevated Rail' in google, you overwhelmingly see metro and subway lines.  Besides, as I said, I will probably make heavy elevated rail stations in the future but after I make them for metro.

The thing about that might be that we (atleast in germany) don't make some differences like "elevated" or "ground" stations - they are just stations

Examples from germany - Berlin main station:

Cologne main station:

Aachen Rothe Erde:

There are actually some stations like this around - anyway you are right by saying that most time such stations are used on networks featuring third rail power supply (At least in the western world - thinking about the eastern world I'm not that sure!)

[andreharv 1,197]

Whoa duly noted! I suppose you're right about how trains may be labeled.  And TBH, most of my release schedules are purely speculative because I just start 'working on stuff' lol.  However, I still still make metro first.  Are you guys saying that most elevated stations in Europe are heavy rail/locomotive?

[Distanced 114]

@andreharv Surprisingly, it's not uncommon in Germany. I haven't really been able to find examples of this anywhere else though, except small sections of track that have been raised to not disturb highways and such. There is also a rare occurrence in Chicago where a small freight train might pass through: 

[Delta2k5 311]

Not most, well, in Germany it's a bit complicated as we got something in between - the often mentioned S-Bahn. That system got cars working the same way as metros does (all trailers are power cars), but they are longer than usual metros (so no tight turns are possible). They also collect their power using catenaries and pantographs just like the regular heavy rail system, as they share the same network / voltage. Those type of trains usually stops at platform stations featuring two tracks - sometimes on ground, sometimes elevated, sometimes even underground.

Here are some underground examples:

http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/de/l/city-tunnel/leipzig-s-bahn.htm

and another elevated one at Cologne Nippes

https://www.google.de/maps/place/Köln-Nippes,+50739+Köln/@50.958497,6.9408863,265m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47bf257148d74ef7:0xf386d93499845ad0!8m2!3d50.9584575!4d6.9416747

[donoteat 478]

I feel like there's a tenuous connection at best between the status of a railroad as being "heavy rail metro", "long-distance rail", "commuter rail", "freight rail", "light rail", "premetro", "trolley", etc. and whether stations are elevated, sunken, underground, or at-grade. My daily commuter train passes through stations with all four conditions -- some out in the suburbs are elevated because that was simply the most convenient way to build the station. Same with when I take the Northeast Regional to go to DC -- several stations are elevated, several are at-grade, and some are sunken in a trench, because the railroad's grade profile is set first and the station comes afterwards.

 

[Elektrix 42]

On 10/7/2016 at 7:04 AM, Delta2k5 said:

Got some debug message on games startup:

maybe some unused leftover in your code (not used instance of that type)? - Ingame it seems to work fine, I'll go into further testing. I really like the way you did that panel!

 

• Depot spawning is working better than before
• Trains still don't drive back to the depot when service is canceled / day and night cycle changes

I hate to jump into this conversation randomly, but I still get this error in my game, and I even have the newest version of the mod. I tried restarting the game, redownloading the mod, re-reading your installation instructions, et cetera, and it still doesn't work. 

A screenshot of my error console: 

I have Fine Road Heights installed, perhaps that is causing the problem? I think somewhere in this thread it mentioned being incompatible with that.

[andreharv 1,197]

@BlazingBoldly Welcome to Simtropolis!

That first message is just a warning (not error) and it was caused by a *derp* on my part.  I have not released the fix but I will (if I can remember today).  Are you experiencing problems while actually playing with the metro?

[wasmic 111]

Just to add to the discussion:

There's really no difference between lines that have catenaries and those that have third rails. They're just different current collection methods.

There are many, many metros that use catenaries instead of third rails, for example in Rome where lines A and B are catenary-powered and in Tokyo where all lines but 1 are catenary-powered. It is much rarer that mainline railways use third rail power, but it does happen - see Southeast England, where the largest network of third rail powered track is located.

In Copenhagen, the S-Train service runs as something in between a metro and a regional railway, some lines being more metro-like and others being more regional-like, but all lines (except the F line) share trackage at the central stretch, which involves running both at grade, sunken, underground and elevated on a dike. Most of the lines also have proper elevated stations in the suburbs of Copenhagen, while the stretch between the stations is frequently at grade or on a dike. All of this is powered by a catenary like the Munich S-rail, but unlike the Berlin S-Rail, which is third-rail powered - even though the rest of the system works the same way.

Catenary vs. third rail has very little to do with the mode of operation of the system - neither stopping patterns, line construction or anything else. It's a current collection method; nothing more.

[mikamaty 47]

According to everyones comments (who does not live in central Europe), we have kinda special transport system in Germany (or the Netherlands) . Theee are transport types called...

• ...  "Regional-Express": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional-Express
• ... "Regionalbahn", which is the same as a local passenger train: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regionalbahn
• ... "S-Bahn", which stops on (almost) every train station. @Delta2k5 already explained.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-train
• ... subways, trams, buses and so on
• ... the "Stadtbahn" or Premetro in Belgium or the Netherlands. This is the most differently type of transport. It is a mixture between subway and tram. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbahn 

I think this is everything which is anyway different to transport system in other countries. 

[Elektrix 42]

@andreharv Thanks! I've been here before (used to be really into SC2013, got most of my mods and mod-tips here), but sadly, my old account seems to have expired.

Anyway, I'm testing the mod now and will send screenshots of how it works as I test now that I know it will actually load  Does it require me to reboot the game like Traffic++?

[Tim The Terrible 586]

I don't know what this discussion is about or if it's even a 'discussion' still, but I just wanted to raise you some Dutch Elevated Heavy Rail Stations

Spoiler

Amsterdam Sloterdijk (major crossing)

 

Almere Central

 

Lelystad (I know, it's ugly)

 

Also a lot of our rail is build on embankments and have stations like these at points where big roads pass underneath

 

 

[Elektrix 42]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but this glitch:

Spoiler

However, connecting to a short vanilla track segment before the vanilla station seems to render fine and create lines fine:

Spoiler

Spoiler

[squirrelarmyuk 100]

@Tim The Terrible I actually like the look of Lelystad, not ugly at all. 

For the ultimate Elevated Heavy Rail Station I'm going to present to you Leeds City Station. 17 platforms and it actually has a river flowing underneath it as well as a major road. The elevated rail network completely dominates the city.

[andreharv 1,197]

@BlazingBoldly: Awesome!  I love pictures!  Ok so when you clicked on your favorite subway station for testing, did a dialog pop up in the middle of your screen with a couple sliders on it?  If not, you may not have the latest version, or nobody sees it which means bigger problems for me.  If you do see it, however, make sure the depth is set to at least 12m.  The problem is that the game, by default, buries subway tracks at -4m (about 13 feet) as far as realism goes, this is complete nonsense and since this mod tries to get back to realism (even a little), the tunnels and transitions are going to be deeper than the vanilla station tracks.  Connecting the vanilla metro tracks to vanilla station works because I hardcoded the vanilla metro tracks to not go above 12m.

This raises an interesting point.  First off, as a reminder, I have built an algorithm for the depth slider which sinks existing station tracks and ped paths to the desired depth and then dynamically builds a 'staircase' of underground ped paths connecting the entrance of the station to the existing station below.  That said, I can set the default depth to whatever is most convenient.  This does not affect stations that have already been placed; It only affects stations you are going to place.  Because -4m is just plain ridiculous, I'm wondering if it would just be better to set the default to -12m?  This is what me rambling sounds like...I'm leaning toward -12m.  Not really noticeable to the average player and will eliminate this glitchy garbage once and for all.  What do you guys think?

[Elektrix 42]

I think it would be best if the default depth was 12 meters, however, this could potentially affect the "double-track" workshop assets (like Multi-Track Station Enabler assets, etc). I haven't tested it and I will...

EDIT

I tested it with a multiple track layout and I *think* it works? Both tracks were adjusted

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

[andreharv 1,197]

Thank you.  Also, my BIGGEST challenge with these sliders were getting the cims to actually use the darn stations.  This game has some really crazy snapping rules when it comes to ped paths so I had to kinda take shots in the dark till I came up with something that I think works but please make sure that the stations are actually being used (people are entering them and traveling)

[Elektrix 42]

Cims go to the one-track station that has been lowered:

Spoiler

They also go to both platforms (in use) of this multi-track station at 12m: 

Spoiler

I don't know why, though, but only the bottom two platforms were lowered to 12m. I think I'm going to see if it is because the mod is potentially conflicting with either Traffic++ or Road Anarchy.

[Delta2k5 311]

I can confirm that cims reach the stations as my metro network is flooded by them. 2000+ cims at one station waiting for the next train is just crazy - but it works!  (My test city has 128k residents)

[DeltaGamer 13]

Maybe we should just make a tram/metro/light rail/heavy rail/standard rail (unless it's the same as heavy)/commuter rail/elevated rail all-in-one super universal rail? Yeah, that wouldn't really work... But maybe it could be an interesting idea (I think that by using low-power intermediate-speed inductrack maglev tech it could be created IRL, but IDK if it could work in game)

[Delta2k5 311]

8 hours ago, DeltaGamer said:

Maybe we should just make a tram/metro/light rail/heavy rail/standard rail (unless it's the same as heavy)/commuter rail/elevated rail all-in-one super universal rail? Yeah, that wouldn't really work...

I also think that would be a good idea, which actually could also work. That kind of track could use the stock heavy rails track model + a third rail model on the outer borders. That track just has to allow any kind of rail vehicles which are implemented. The downside: such a network would the user force to install the snowfall DLC, metro overhaul and high speed rail. If one of those is missing shit is going to hit the fan. That would lead to 1000 ways to break your savegame *bruh*.

Maybe something like this will be possible in one or two years after CO stops support for C:S (so no more updates which could cause new incompatibilities)  

Actually irl there are trams / metros / "heavy rail" sharing the same track (normal gauge). Here in Germany are sometimes trams running into main stations. The best example is the "Stadtbahn Karlsruhe" which uses two-system trams able to run on two different voltages (15kV 16,7 Hz AC and  750V DC) - so those trams can drive on tracks from the DB (Deutsche Bahn)

[mikamaty 47]

@Delta2k5 Or in Zwickau where normal trains run on tram tracks.

[boformer 3,169]

I think such a "super rail" would go too far.

The game is a simplification of reality. And in reality, metro, trams and heavy rail are usually separated.

A train track with a third rail instead of wires could easily be created with NetworkSkins, without adding new prefabs.

[wasmic 111]

Ideally, it would be possible for everything to use all rail types. There are trains IRL that can run on both third-rail power and catenary power. There are also places where trams run on main-line rails, or where trams run in metro tunnels for parts of the line stretch. However, this is supposedly practically impossible to do in Skylines, due to the way networks are coded. The closest we can get is to make sure that all three kinds of rail (third-rail, catenary, light rail/tram) can be used both as elevated, ground-level and underground networks, giving us the ability to create almost any kind of network that is used IRL. Catenary metro has been possible for quite a while. Third-rail metro is being fixed by this mod. Third-Rail regional trains could probably also be done with this mod. Elevated light rail is sorta possible but awkward, underground light rail is not possible yet.

I think a type of "super rail" would be awesome, and the most elegant solution to this problem - although it shouldn't have both a catenary and a third rail. Perhaps use network skins to change it between third rail and catenary?

Also, @Delta2k5, according to what I know about this game, it wouldn't be dependent on HSR even if it supported HSR, since HSR could simply be done as an alternate type of rail track, that just happens to have a higher speed limit and doesn't allow freight trains. This can already be done in the game. All it needs is an alternate model.

@boformer: the problem with enforcing separation of networks is that it constrains creativity - and some of the most interesting real systems cannot be recreated if separation is enforced. The question is just whether it's possible to actually create a super rail. I've heard that vehicles cannot run on a network that they are not designed for - but is it possible to create a network that accepts all vehicles?

It would be more modelling work work to create a type of super rail plus station tracks than it would be to create the currently missing types of station tracks, but it would allow for much more creativity for the players.

I'll make sure to try the new update out and bugtest it as soon as possible, although it might be a few days before I have time to do that.

[andreharv 1,197]

I would tend to agree with Boformer.  While it exists, there is a reason why such a 'super rail' is relatively rare.  I have said this multiple times that if all rail types shared the same rail, then they are only as fast as the slowest rail type (again, metro, freight, and heavy rail stuck behind a tram).

@wasmic: I would tend to disagree that not having a super rail will stymie creativity.  I mean think about it.  If all trains use the same track and go the same places then what is the need for any variety to them?  People would start making faster trams to break up log jams and then all the vehicles would be exactly the same.  All the stations would accept all vehicle traffic and eventually people would stop seeing the need to use them at all.  Ironically, SOME realistic limitations (like the ones currently in place) spurs creativity because it forces players to overcome common problems that are faced IRL.  Personally, I kinda like trams and metro (at least once this mod is done).  

It might sound like a doomsday prediction but it is my biggest fear resulting from blurring the lines of what these transport modes are typically designed to do.

[R3V0 909]

Just a heads-up, there are some issues with elevated station stops. Building works but you can't add lines on the tracks, tracking begins 12m below, but since tracks are elevated, it gives path not found error. 

[andreharv 1,197]

Great!  I say that because it may be a clue to a bigger issue I am trying to figure out.  I will get that addressed.  Thank you.