Aarsgevogelte BAT's

[AndisArt 2,066]

Wow you're so quick spilling out amazing BATs!

On 11/30/2016 at 1:42 PM, Aarsgevogelte said:

Thanks. If I adjusted the building in the middle like in the picture below, would that be better? Do I have to render everything again, or is there another way?

Afraid you need to rerender and I think you should, current version looks wrong with the colors. How did you set up the lighting in Max? Are you using the Bat4Max defaults? Do you have Gamma Correction turned on in Gamma/LUT settings?

For the nightwindows on your latest, I think they are fine like that. I can make out something inside the building. It doesnt always have to be clearly visible what's going on inside I think.

[tonyr 926]

@Aarsgevogelte  You've  outdone yourself with this one. Many thanks for this beauty! 

[gutterclub 2,729]

Best to date, looks way better when its warmer and blends with the games palette

[Aarsgevogelte 1,235]

I have a question: I'm considering using gmax instead of 3DS Max. Is 3DS Max 'the future'' or is gmax still acceptable? The reason why I'm considering gmax is because I think that gmax buildings fit in much better within the simcity environment. Also, most European buildings seem to have been created in gmax. I find that 3DS Max works well with modern buildings, skyscrapers and such, but I feel it works less well with 'older' buildings. I think there's a certain charm to gmax buildings. Am I mistaken? Gmax is annoying though. For example, this is my latest building in gmax:

The texture seem to show up wrong in the render, even though it looks good within the viewport.

Also Is there a way to apply a texture to all instances in gmax? Because when I apply a texture to an instance, it only applies the texture to that particular instance.

Anyway, this is the latest building I have been working on:

[matias93 7,535]

Just my uninformed opinion: I think that 3DSmax is particularly advantageous for small european buildings: not only the rendering isn't as absurdly demanding as is on huge skyscrapers, but the improved management of light does marvels to enhance the detailed shapes of barroque, gothic, classicist and beaux-arts architectures.

While is maybe part of the charm that I'm not valuing enough, but I feel that gmax buildings look like plastic models no matter the quality of the textures, and while that matches perfectly with the vanilla contents of the game, the fact that one can completely override those parts with custom content of better quality somehow carries oneself to always prefer the most realistic available content.

Last but not least, I've noted you put a lot of effort on nightlighting, with fantastical results; gmax is sadly enormously limited in that aspect, so it would make your work to vanish from the finished creation.

[MushyMushy 3,617]

In my opinion, I would say keep using 3DSmax. I'm not denying that people have made some very nice things in gmax over the years (and people like madhatter still do), but the program is limited in what it can do, especially when it comes to night lighting. My other observations are that 3DS makes sharper renders, which I would say is actually helpful for older buildings like yours (you would probably loose a fair bit of detail in gmax), and the fact that it supports ambient occlusion (I think this is why 3DS renders are sharper-looking, and the lack of it is why gmax can look "plastic") and reflectivity. The benefit of reflectivity is obviously less pronounced on older-styled buildings than glass-curtain skyscrapers, but everything has some level of reflectivity to it. The other drawback is something matias emphasized, nightlights... gmax is extremely limited in this area and a lot of the amazing night lighting effects you do are impossible with it. I made the switch from gmax to 3DS not all that long ago and I haven't really looked back.

There's always the argument to make newer BATs look like the vanilla models or older custom content, but my personal take on it is to push the boundaries further rather than get locked into what was available 13 years ago. However, this is just an opinion. I don't think anyone really considers gmax stuff as 'unacceptable' per se. Lots of us still use many many gmax buildings and props in our cities, although I'd wager this is just the product of there not being a newer option in many of those cases.

[Bombardiere 591]

I have used both GMAX and 3DS MAX and I can say that GMAX is just "annoying". Oh yes, the GMAX is still a useful tool, but 3DS MAX is superior in every aspect. including the rendering. The image is sharper with 3DS MAX and others pointed out, the night lighting has better options. Although with extra effort, it is possible to do quite good night light effect with GMAX. Much better that Maxis default beige window screens. But Dark Night is not possible with GMAX.

Quote

Also, most European buildings seem to have been created in gmax.

Xannepan / JENX did most of his models with 3DS MAX. I think that the difference between yours and his models is the saturation. The Maxis game environment is very desaturated and GMAX render tool make overexposed or bleached render images. I guess so that the 3D models match better the games environment. 3DS MAX render tool makes darker images. Quite possible more closer to the original textures. I don't know it, but I could take a guess that this is the way the 3DS MAX render tool creator SImmFox preferred. ANd perhaps, as you said, may be that  it looks better with modern glass skyscrapers.

 

Anyway, you can adjust your models to better suite other buildings in the game. 3DS MAX material editor has a color correction option. I have tried that with my last models and it is relatively easy to adjust and test the model's main textures. I usually take minus 20 % saturation. E.g. I desaturate model around 20 prosent. It depends on the original texture, but that is usually enough. If you desaturate too much, then you end up with greyish texture. But in my opinion it is easy and fast way to test what would look the best.

 

Also, with this color correction option, it is possible to adjust lightness of the texture. If your model looks dark, then is is possible to make the textures lighter. Even small changes will have a strong effect in the texture so I would say that plus minus 1 is usually enough.

 

Similar adjustment is possible to do with a paint program, but 3DS MAX color correction option does not destroy the original texture image, so if you don't like the changes, it is possible to revert back to the original texture.

 

 

 

 

[T Wrecks 10,209]

I think there's also a difference with the renderer used. As far as I understand, some BATters used Scanline rendering in 3dsmax because it's closer to the game's legacy look in their opinion; most use Mental Ray.

I guess it can be a bit more challenging to blend your buildings into the vanilla game's colour/hue/saturation palette using MR, but seeing how some BATters achieved this pretty well, it should be absolutely possible.

Even if you consider that there are differences, this is also valid for gmax BATters. Some use more saturation, others less. Some BATters' stuff always ends up a tad dark, others make their BATs brighter. Some use colder colours, others warmer colours. Some gmax BATs end up standing out too much, some 3dsmax BATs as well. Others are fine, no matter which tool was used to make them.

I remember when SimFox showed the first successful 3dsmax renders through the BAT4MAX script, I also liked the legacy look better initially - lower details, fuzzy shadows and all. It took a while to get used to the new tool, and I guess it took a while to tweak renders to look close enough to the game's palette, but now I don't have these reservations about 3dsmax any more.

The difference in crispness is - quite logically - most notable in z5, but I guess if you're actually playing the game (which probably happens in z4 most of the time) and not squinting at one precise BAT to scan it for the tiniest shortcoming, you won't notice the effect that much.

[Aarsgevogelte 1,235]

Thank you all for your feedback. I think I'll stick with 3ds Max.

Anyway, do you guys know why this black square keeps appearing?

It only appears in the N perspective.

Btw, I'm sorry I always come here to dump my problems. I hope it's not annoying. It does ensure that my BAT's will turn out better.

[matias93 7,535]

I'm liking the way those roofs are getting done, very realistic but noticeably cared of. About the square, it is on a wall that is going to be covered, so is not much of a problem. You could cover it with a flat prop, some announcement or similar...

[Jasoncw 11,840]

T Wrecks is right, a lot of those BATers who make the old european buildings are using 3ds Max, but use Scanline render instead of Mental Ray. 

If you don't think your building fits in with a generic game environment, keep on adjusting the textures. Maybe some people disagree with me, but I think my buildings fit into the game fine. 

For your black square, you might have overlapping geometry. Or maybe you have some inverse faces. But I've also seen people just randomly get that problem before, without their being anything wrong with their model. 

[Aarsgevogelte 1,235]

This is my new building (block). Does it look ok?

[Adrianor 628]

Pretty sure this looks better than "ok"... 

However, may I suggest darkening a bit the dome? I think it would look better.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Can you post google maps street view of the building? 

[JP Schriefer 5,590]

I love it!

[redlex 7]

7 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

Can you post google maps street view of the building? 

https://www.google.no/maps/@51.2183877,4.4053358,3a,76.6y,154.11h,105.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssFCgSlJzpWqOZlCiQbsp5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=no

[Girafe 1,729]

Maybe decrease the saturation and increase the brightness of the stone texture (a little bit too dark and yellow in my opinion)

I would do the opposite for the copper roof (increase slightly the saturation and the darkness).

After it's just personal opinion. Otherewise the BAT looks fine

[jmsepe 2,038]

BAT looks fine to me. Nice looking corner W2W here.  

[Jasoncw 11,840]

On 12/14/2016 at 2:16 AM, redlex said:

https://www.google.no/maps/@51.2183877,4.4053358,3a,76.6y,154.11h,105.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssFCgSlJzpWqOZlCiQbsp5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=no

Thanks!  

 

https://goo.gl/maps/Rv11JX61dys Some boys having fun with the google street view truck. 

 

I agree with Girafe about the textures, especially about the saturation. The building seems to be a subtle cream color, just slightly more yellow than limestone or concrete. 

(also I know you've already uploaded the building, but for future BATs)

[Aarsgevogelte 1,235]

On 12/15/2016 at 0:02 PM, Girafe said:

Maybe decrease the saturation and increase the brightness of the stone texture (a little bit too dark and yellow in my opinion)

I would do the opposite for the copper roof (increase slightly the saturation and the darkness).

After it's just personal opinion. Otherewise the BAT looks fine

 

14 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

Thanks!  

 

https://goo.gl/maps/Rv11JX61dys Some boys having fun with the google street view truck. 

 

I agree with Girafe about the textures, especially about the saturation. The building seems to be a subtle cream color, just slightly more yellow than limestone or concrete. 

(also I know you've already uploaded the building, but for future BATs)

Thanks for the feedback, although sadly my impatience got the better of me. I have to say that I don't strive to recreate buildings with 100% accuracy. Maybe I should though? Anyway, here's two new buildings I was working on; one from my hometown and one from Amsterdam:

   

I'm not too sure about the colors...the contrast and warmth/saturation seem a bit off to me.

What do you guys think?

 

[JP Schriefer 5,590]

Both looking great IMO

 

[redlex 7]

Separately, I think they look all good, but IMHO i'm a bit uncertain about the combination. The building to the left looks more belgian to me colourwice, and the building to the right, dutch. Have you made them as one model or two? If the latter, I would've personally preferred to make it into two different lots, in combination with partners in the same hues. I would love to see a 1X2 with a mirroring neighbor of the building to the left. The possibility of making Belgian old town squares like the one in Brussels or Antwerpen, has been eagerly awaited in this game. Otherwise, I want to emphasize that i love your creations, and that i'm looking forward to follow your projects further

[Aarsgevogelte 1,235]

1 hour ago, redlex said:

Separately, I think they look all good, but IMHO i'm a bit uncertain about the combination. The building to the left looks more belgian to me colourwice, and the building to the right, dutch. Have you made them as one model or two? If the latter, I would've personally preferred to make it into two different lots, in combination with partners in the same hues. I would love to see a 1X2 with a mirroring neighbor of the building to the left. The possibility of making Belgian old town squares like the one in Brussels or Antwerpen, has been eagerly awaited in this game. Otherwise, I want to emphasize that i love your creations, and that i'm looking forward to follow your projects further

The left building is actually a typical Dutch building though, but maybe I didn't manage to reflect that well enough. I started out with the building on the right, because I wanted to create I building from my hometown, but then there was a gap on the left side, so I decided to add another building to the left. I guess I could maybe replace the left building with something more fitting, and maybe combine the left building with its real life neighbour:

[Delwaque 0]

Fantastic work Aarsgevogelte !

Have you planned to build the stadhuis of Antwerp?

[redlex 7]

5 hours ago, Aarsgevogelte said:

The left building is actually a typical Dutch building though, but maybe I didn't manage to reflect that well enough. I started out with the building on the right, because I wanted to create I building from my hometown, but then there was a gap on the left side, so I decided to add another building to the left. I guess I could maybe replace the left building with something more fitting, and maybe combine the left building with its real life neighbour

That is in any case some nice looking neighbours :-) The left building looks indeed typical Dutch in that picture. I guess, that the white colour is a bit too "golden" and therefore overshadows the contrast in the black & white theme that makes it typical dutch. That golden colour makes it look more like those Belgium Guildhalls with limestone(?) cladding. Personally, I like it that way, though. But I guess it's a matter of preferences. BTW, where is the building to the right located?

[Aarsgevogelte 1,235]

3 hours ago, Delwaque said:

Fantastic work Aarsgevogelte !

Have you planned to build the stadhuis of Antwerp?

No, because there are way too many beautiful town halls in Belgium. I mainly focus on W2W environment / 19th century architecture.

1 hour ago, redlex said:

That is in any case some nice looking neighbours :-) The left building looks indeed typical Dutch in that picture. I guess, that the white colour is a bit too "golden" and therefore overshadows the contrast in the black & white theme that makes it typical dutch. That golden colour makes it look more like those Belgium Guildhalls with limestone(?) cladding. Personally, I like it that way, though. But I guess it's a matter of preferences. BTW, where is the building to the right located?

That building is from Tilburg, a meaningless town in the Netherlands.

I replaced the building with something more fitting I believe. The left one is also from Tilburg btw.

[redlex 7]

15 hours ago, Aarsgevogelte said:

I replaced the building with something more fitting I believe. The left one is also from Tilburg btw.

That is indeed a very good match   ... and a corner? (at least IRL)

Well, if Tilburg was in Norway, it would have been the third largest city in the country ^^,

[Aarsgevogelte 1,235]

Do you guys have any experience with the Environment/Background Switcher in 3DS Max? When I use the Environment/Background Switcher, I get an error during the rendering process (Export failed! Code = 6). The reason I use the Environment/Background Switcher is because I'd like some reflections in the night version, without a background. I know the background is not visible in the render, but it still shows on the edges of the building, which I find to be annoying. How do you guys deal with this?

[Harry's Place 918]

you sir are amazing, you remind me of porkie and jenx great old european w2w buildings. And the speed of new releases outstanding.  It's people like you that keep SC4 alive after 20 years. Great work!!!!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

So, first, the best thing to do in general is to have a ground plane underneath your BAT. Go into object properties and make it not visible to the camera. It's subtle, but it affects the lighting enough that I think everyone should always have one. 

The ground plane should be textured and there are different things that can be done.

The most basic and general thing is to put either a screenshot from the game, or satellite aerials, onto it. I think a screenshot from the game (or a bunch of screenshots edited together to be more abstract) is better because it does a better job of including the colors and shapes from the game than a satellite aerial. 

But instead of only having a generic ground texture, you can BAT the surroundings that the building will have in the game. For example, you can include the sidewalk and road texture. That way all of the lighting at the base of the BAT will be as close as possible to what it would be like if SC4 was all rendered together. This is what I do. 

And then for reflections at night, you just give your ground plane self illumination. Or you can make another plane and make that invisible to the camera too.