The future of "Chat"...

[Dirktator 2,326]

Effective May 1, 2017, our Chat feature, currently powered by IP.Board (InvisionPower), will end.

IPB have decided that they will no longer provide Chat as part of the community software.

So, my question to the community is: Do you want to keep some type of Chat system on the site?

There are chat systems out there that do support IP.Board, and these will be the systems that we will consider closely. Naturally, these also come with a cost, so if we do want to have a chat system, the caveat is that we will need your help to raise some additional funds to purchase a new chat system (usually one-time cost). 

Please feel free to weigh in, share your thoughts, ideas, suggestions or recommendations!

Please note that this poll is for us to get a sense of the community's sentiment on the issue, and is not a "referendum", the Admins will have a final decision on the matter, taking into consideration your feedback. Thanks!

[MissVanleider 1,851]

I think absolutely not, the notification system allows near instant replies via forums if people are browsing the site at the time they are conversing. If people are keen on live chat then there are no shortage of ways to do this off site.

Whilst i admit i am by no means a regular 'chat' user, i have rarely seen more than a handful of people using the feature, surely a tiny fraction of those using the site in total?

[Toby Ferrian 875]

I'd say set up a Simtropolis Discord server to replace the chat. It costs absolutely nothing, and is ridiculously easy to do. It's also possible to have a widget on the site showing online users.

[Silur 3,308]

Simtropolis is a very modern website, but that does not mean that we should all take everything and everywhere ... If some tools are for 5 persons and it is not necessary 99% to the members - we have to think about it !

How many people use CHAT, who needs it, how much you have to pay. Should pay for it Simtropolis?

Reputation Community.Simtropolis.com for Search Engines looks very fine and the lack of a Chat she was not hurt in the future.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Discord sounds reasonable.

[Fantozzi 4,068]

I never used the chat, so maybe I shouldn't have an opinion on it. But I agree with @Silur- why spent money and volunteer work on something 'nice to have' today if you may need both tomorrow to keep up running something essential for the site?

On the other hand - most members seem to be only interested in downloading from the STEX and in no social activities (no matter on which part of the site), so one could suspend all social activities and just offer download content. But without social offers like the forums and the cj you won't have a community and a community can do things - and have a political force - a single user can't do or have. So you have to nurse a community if you want to have it strong.

So maybe the question is: suspending the chat would this harm the possibilities to form 'community' or public opinion?

I don't think so. But I can't judge.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Maybe have a chat thread in "Forum Games"?

[MissVanleider 1,851]

I agree 100% with @Fantozzi that 'community' is important. 'Community' is  obviously more than just owning a simtropolis account for gaining access to the STEX.

If there is data that the chat promotes community engagement then that might change my opinion, but my gut reaction is to agree that surely an alternative such as @Jolteon suggestion could be a better use of resource.

[Silur 3,308]

I'm interested in Simtropolis all the news about SC4, BATs, Lot''s, CJ's, ideas, works and everything else ... but not the negotiations between respectable people ... Sorry...

Please take into consideration that I never paid for Simtropolis from 2006. I can't do that from the country called Russia ! I want do it, but I can't do it!

[Dirktator 2,326]

Thanks for the feedback again, everyone.  Some interesting suggestions!

I think it's worth mentioning that, since we will be retiring the old Chat before May, a new Chat has the potential to offer more features and engagement than the old Chat ever did, so it's also a new opportunity and there may very well be new ways the chat could be used, so it's worth keeping an open mind.

I realize, I should have added an "Indifferent" option...

Again, just a reminder this is not a referendum, the Admins will settle on a final decision.

[Silur 3,308]

Well - I'm in "Indifferent" option now ...  Now there is nothing stopping me ... 

Thank You ...

[madhatter106 3,924]

I don't know if this can be answered definitively, but for me, two questions (or sets of questions) arise from this discussion.

• how many (or what percentage) of ST members actually use the chat feature in a given day/week/month/year?  And how much time do they spend there?
• what is being discussed in chat?  Is it mostly about the game itself, the site itself, or is it a merely social function?  Or if it's a mix, what rough percentages could be along those delineations?

Is it a feature that is used by a handful of (active) members for a fraction of their time on this site, and/or is it a feature that is mostly a chit-chat along the lines of "how's the weather in Fayetteville this time of year?" or "what are you doing this holiday weekend?" But if it's something that a good number of members regularly use, for a decent amount of their time, and with a measurable end, then I guess it leads to the question of whether or not it is something that can justify the resources, time, implementation, and maintenance.

Personally, I think I've only ever been in chat once or twice, and probably because I might have accidentally clicked on it. 

[Haljackey 17,387]

The sun's been setting on chat for a long time now. I think this is a great time / reason to retire it. As said, there are many alternatives nowadays. Heck, Simtrop could even set up a facebook chat, other fan sites do this too.

[Silur 3,308]

16 minutes ago, madhatter106 said:

I don't know if this can be answered definitively, but for me, two questions (or sets of questions) arise from this discussion.

• how many (or what percentage) of ST members actually use the chat feature in a given day/week/month/year?  And how much time do they spend there?
• what is being discussed in chat?  Is it mostly about the game itself, the site itself, or is it a merely social function?  Or if it's a mix, what rough percentages could be along those delineations?

Is it a feature that is used by a handful of (active) members for a fraction of their time on this site, and/or is it a feature that is mostly a chit-chat along the lines of "how's the weather in Fayetteville this time of year?" or "what are you doing this holiday weekend?" But if it's something that a good number of members regularly use, for a decent amount of their time, and with a measurable end, then I guess it leads to the question of whether or not it is something that can justify the resources, time, implementation, and maintenance.

Personally, I think I've only ever been in chat once or twice, and probably because I might have accidentally clicked on it. 

I think it is a very interesting thought ...

Very sorry if this is a simple social network for simple conversations...

[BugeyedDragon 412]

I will recommend Discord, as it has all features of our existing chat and more and is COMPLETELY free. While it requires download/an additional site to have your password on (comes as an app or you can just use your browser) I think it's well worth it.

[Toby Ferrian 875]

3 minutes ago, BugeyedDragon said:

I will recommend Discord, as it has all features of our existing chat and more and is COMPLETELY free. While it requires download/an additional site to have your password on (comes as an app or you can just use your browser) I think it's well worth it.

Registration technically isn't required on Discord, though it is highly recommended to do so.

[CorinaMarie 29,877]

I hang out in chat a lot so, ofc, I voted Yes!

It's nice to be there when a somewhat lost, new member pops in with questions I can answer. I feel that really helps promote ST and emphasizes what a friendly community we have here.

Now, to the practical side of it. If the cost of a new chat endangers the longevity of ST itself, then that would be the first thing to cut out. Answering @madhatter106's questions:

• Percentagewise, I don't know. But taking guesses I'd say we have about 8 to 10 diehard chatters who are there most every day. Maybe 30 total who drop in (and stay for a little while) like at least once or twice per week. Average stay is prolly one to two hours. Typical (my time) evening counts are like 5 to 8 peeps in chat and does get up to 12 on some occasions. More than 12 at once is extremely rare.
• The percent of city building chat is maybe 10%. (I'd like to see that increase.) The rest is social stuff like what's for dinner?, or how'd your day go?, or is the world really as messed up as it appears?

If a new chat could have more than one room it would help because a room could be dedicated to city building and Simtropolis related stuff while having another for the social aspect. I confess it does get frustrating during heavy chat times trying to have 2 or 3 peeps discuss the game while 5 others are having a different convo.

So, I'd like to still have a chat, but not if it means we lose the whole site due to economic factors.

[Toby Ferrian 875]

I still recommend Discord.

You can have up to like a billion channels, so we could have a channel for everything, and there's even voice chat for those who are interested in that.

[MissVanleider 1,851]

2 hours ago, Dirktator said:

Again, just a reminder this is not a referendum, the Admins will settle on a final decision.

Totally correct. That word still makes me shudder, whatever 52% of my nation thinks

[Bipin 3,403]

The chat feature is the essence of this website. It'd just be another SC4D without it. That's not to say there's anything wrong with SC4D, but rather, there is nothing different (should chat be removed). Why go here when you can just as easily go there? You've both got file exchanges. You both have forums. You both have your resident BAT teams (though arguably with the more prolific ones like BSC reside on SC4D). So what incentive is there to come here?

Surely there must be one, because Simtropolis has long been the more popular website of the two. I don't have access to exact statistics, but it goes without saying when you see the amount of content generating on this website daily, versus on SC4D. So what might we attribute this to? To get new content, you need something novel - something new to generate it. Users are that novelty. When newcomers to the city building genre, especially SC4, look for resources, they come here. Often times, they seem to stay. I can tell you first hand that a large part of it is when new users enter the chatroom to ask questions and have one-on-one conversations about an otherwise overwhelming subject. ST is huge, and finding helpful peers is not easy for me to discern, let alone a newcomer who has no experience with this place (nor the games it supports) whatsoever. Therefore, to compare the chatroom to private messages - as has been noted earlier - would be to engage in a false dichotomy. The two are, in many regards, mutually exclusive. Even as an experienced user, if you need an immediate answer to something - big questions, small questions, whatever, the chatroom is your best bet. People will see your message there and should someone there be knowledgeable on the subject (which they tend to be)  they can give immediate answers and individually-directed feedback as required. In short, these two functions play fundamentally different roles.

Now comes the question of how to fix this. Like chat or not, IP.Board is getting rid of that function. A lot of you seem to be making utilitarian judgements about the matter, which is admirable - I would do the same with many aspects of life. However, we should not discount having a more in-depth cost/benefit analysis than merely stating "oh well 5 guys use the chat each night compared to hundreds of thousands of ST forum users". No. That once again engages in that aforementioned false dichotomy, though more importantly, it fails to see cost/benefit from a more omniscient position. Take Discord for example. A few people have made this suggestion already. It's a great one, in fact. Discord requires little maintenance, little setup, and costs nothing to run. Operating costs are evidently a major concern for this website, as evidenced by the banners and ads. Yet, this can help alleviate that. Moreover, For those few steady users, and for all the new users who enter chat bewildered and daunted by the sheer scale of this website, it is a very worthwhile tool. Perhaps even one - as suggested earlier - that can preach good hospitality and invite these new users to stay in the longer term. As much as some of us regulars goof off in chat during the wee hours of the morning, we always aim to help new users - and I do know it has had a positive effect on many when learning to navigate not only this website, but the city genre.

Besides, wouldn't that be the greatest travesty of all? To lose chat would be to lose me!

 

[Jasoncw 11,949]

I only pop into chat from time to time, but over the years I've seen a lot of community and friendship develop there.

The number of people who use chat is lower than the number of people that use the forums but the quality of social interaction is better. You get to know people better when you're just chatting about every day stuff rather than just conveying technical information or articulating your opinion about SC4. It's a lot more personal and intimate than the forums. Likewise, the number of people who use the forum is lower than the number of people who use the STEX, but the quality of social interaction is better. 

And while chat systems do cost enough money that their cost needs to be considered, in the grand scheme of things, and especially if it's a one time purchase, I think the value to the community is very good. 

[MissVanleider 1,851]

@Bipin i for one would never seek to lose you! That for one could change my mind!

My view is merely; i have given money to the site before but i cannot afford to do so time and again.

You are correct that i have tried to turn this into an impersonal cost v benefit, but this is only because i can imagine the strain keeping the site running must do on those who have taken it upon themselves to do so. If a limb can be amputated so the body continues, or even if it improves the chances of the body continuing, it has to be the right course of action.

Apologies if this is rather macabre, i have had a glass of wine.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Chat is dying. Get rid of it. Save some money. The vast majority of activity happens in the forums- like 99.9% of it.

[Thin White Duke 4,072]

Chat has been growing recently. If it's a one time investment, it's worth the effort.

[Bipin 3,403]

@MissVanleider Haha, why thank you

I certainly get what you are saying, which is why I propose a one-time-cost, if not outright free alternative, such as Discord. I wouldn't want to pay too much either, but if we can keep chat alive, and financial cost is not an issue (or an insignificant one) - then the benefits of the few inherently outweigh the costs. I say that with such certitude because I cannot imagine anything but finances being of detriment. Moderator resources - the only other cost I can surmise - has already been fulfilled. Many of the "regulars" in chat are moderators and other staff members.

Now, I won't say names, but I think it goes without saying that some of the responses here have been made in haste. Agree or disagree, some of the positions are very poorly thought out - and if there is anything to be wary of, this is it. Of course no one is perfect. Every response has its flaws, but some arguments have a hostile mix of agenda and salience. What I'm saying is, problems arise when we try and make utilitarian calculations (which seem to be the bulk of analyses here) but do them incorrectly without including all factors, or evidently engaging in pseudocertainty/blind-spot bias.

But I digress. There are valid arguments on both sides, but to restate what I said, there is little cost to opening a chatroom with a low or no cost host; for even marginal benefits inherently outweigh it (and I should add, there's a lot more than "just a few" benefits, as I and others have pointed out earlier). Just let the people who want chat do their thing. Ultimately, it is of no detriment to anyone, but a boon to those who use it, even if you aren't a regular. Besides, sooner or later you might be. We all have had questions at one point or another that require immediate answers (or it would've helped had we the opportunity to receive them).

[Cyclone Boom 17,031]

Thanks everyone for sharing your opinions.

As a bit of background:

The decision to discontinue the current software has been taken completely out of our hands. This is something that will affect all communities using the service, including ours. The developers (Invision Power) have concluded there isn't sufficient global demand to justify keeping it running (being shared and externally hosted). So by closing it, their intention is to cut costs, and spread their resources on other areas of the suite. The positive by-product of this will become increasingly apparent later this year.

In a way, this may yet be a blessing in disguise. Personally from the perspective of a site admin, I believe this is a great opportunity to revive and reinvent chat in our community. There's no doubt it's played an integral part in the character of ST for many years. Remember the Help Desk, seminars, trivia events, and the infamous record breaking attempts? Even though chat will never compete with activity elsewhere on the forums, I'm all for supporting the provision of choice. Although not to everyone's taste and that's fine, it does offer a unique and more direct form of communication, which isn't possible in a thread. Instant chat is better suited in a live feed of messaging, where comparatively, discussion is more at home in a forum.

Although it's functional, the current chat is sparsely limited in features and capability. A fixed solitary room, a maximum of 20 online users and no feasible way to extend or enhance the basic functionality. I think this is partly to blame for the decline in chat's usage. But if something isn't succeeding, you can either dismiss it, or focus on a solution. That would intend to build on the current setup, and focus on promotion & accessibility. Demand can't be supplied from nowhere, but it can be encouraged and fulfilled by providing a suitable platform.

Ideally, we're seeking a solid replacement which can be integrated directly with ST's group permissions, allowing a seamless transition.

In terms of site funding, yes it's true all costs add up. However, the advantage of a perpetual license means there'd be no recurring monthly fees once purchased. The only additional cost would be for optional upgrades if desired in future (at a reduced fee).

Wouldn't the benefits of a new chat platform clearly compensate for the short-term costs?

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

Good thing we have a FREE MARKET ECONOMY in the FREE WORLD.   There are likely several other chat services that will provide equal or better service at less cost and more value for the dollar.  I say, cancel the contract and close the account with Invision Power immediately and then do what we enjoy doing in the FREE WORLD...  GO SHOPPING!   

[DavidDHetzel 1,816]

What about a Simtropolis Discord?

[Toby Ferrian 875]

1 hour ago, DavidDHetzel said:

What about a Simtropolis Discord?

Yeah, I feel that would be the best option (or one of them, at least). I could even volunteer to run it, if Dirk would rather invest his time elsewhere, I do have a lot of experience with Discord after all. Of course, this is all his (and probably the admins') choice.

[Thin White Duke 4,072]

The problem with discord is that some users would find themselves having to create a new account for a new service, which might discourage them.