REV0's Train Stuff

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I went through a phase when I wanted to make futuristic classical/Romulan-esque architecture. My models inadvertadly looked like Germania architecture because they were both monumental classical-inspired. I also did monumental futuristic Gothic and Art Deco. I also want to try my hand at 21st century neo-Baroque architecture and traditionally decorated Asian architecture with modern materials & design. Architecture in our timeline became bland and boring for the most part. What if historical styles get revived in the future? This was experimented with in Civilization Beyond Earth with the “Purity” ideology (Old Earth Romaticism, rejection of synthetic and extraterrestrial life). Besides Germans seem to be oversensitive about this stuff.

tl;dr: I see nothing wrong with fantasy/alternate reality architecture, even if designed by architects working for NAZIs.

 

UPDATE: Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin were responsible for more deaths than Adolph Hitler but they are idolized. We should never idolize mass murderers but Germania architecture is heavily inspired by Ancient Greek & Roman architecture, as is Federalist Architecture and most Classical inspired buildings. There is a serious double standard if it's OK to idolize Mao Zedong or Joseph Stalin but it is forbidden to even borrow/appropriate designs from the 3rd Reich, especially since the Interstate system was also appropriated from it and has become an American icon.

[Jamonbread 222]

I had a course in school from an architectural professor who actually helped to charge nazis of war crimes in the 90's and is a leading expert in Nazi architecture. I could never do justice what he said but I don't think this should be brushed off so lightly. There were a lot of architectural decisions that had horrible consequences. Someone designed the concentration camps in a lot of detail and the drawings and the markings are terrifying on the drawings, it is hard to convey here. Albert Speer, who was chief architect for the project to rebuild Berlin and likely responsible for the building you are recreating was a hardcore nazi to the end with Hitler. The architecture is based on glorifying the third Reich and the "master race". It does have a fairly common look to it, sure its not in the shape of a swastika or something but you can be sure the real deal was heavily influenced by that ideology. All buildings are designed, regardless of whether you want to categorize it as art or not, architecture is a combination of design and technical exercise, even the simplest shed is influenced by something. I don't think it is fully comparable to fascists although i see the comparison at surface level and the points made.  There are certainly some nationalist buildings by many empires over history and I don't think they should be taboo but the nazis were above and beyond, they were building this building as part of a larger project driven by the extermination of a race. With everything going on in the world every act I think contributes to this werid resurgence of the nazis which is dangerous. Even if the intent was just that it looks cool and is unfortunately timed, the result is a nazi building. There is no innocence to this architecture.

I love your work, and I dont think there was any ill intent. It does look cool as it is a grand monument designed to function as the hub of the new centre of the new world of a narcissist regime, but the symbolism of this project is an evil one. If you pursue this project I would have no ill will towards you but I felt a duty to that course (even still after ten years) to write something, no matter how short I fall in getting the point across. Sorry to continue the hijack of this fantastic thread, I promise not to say more on the topic. This is just a model, and for better or worse most wont even realise where this building came from, I get that. I would never want to dictate what anyone should do, nor do I feel good about puting things off limits, its complicated. I just hope that you pause and make a conscious decision before going forward, and will respect your decision either way.   

Again love your stuff, appreciate your contributions. All the best to you.

[R3V0 909]

Thanks for your comment. 

As I said previously, I'm not interested with politics when it's all about making a video game asset of a building that doesn't exist. I don't see any difference between this particular station and Milano Centrale, that were both designed with political intensions behind and obviously if one of these buildings is carrying a political intent which we discussed, they both do. Which is the case of, that we can call it supremacy or fascist or authoritarian or correctly to put; megalomania. 

http://retours.eu/en/29-milano-centrale/

Link above is a pretty good representation of the development of Milano Centrale, that carries the same traces as SBH. Should be interesting to read by those who are not still sure what i'm doing or why i'm interested.

As for SBH, the base design is pretty much obvious those who want to see it can see it. This is the final render of what i did:

 

I can say at this point that is not even the same station anymore. It started as a replicate but due to the lack of documents and images I had improvise the rest of the asset such as general dimensions, front and back facade, rooftop, side roofs, wings etc. Only thing that remained from original design the ground  floor and those 5 pillars on the main entrance. 

 

 

[Turjan 1,048]

I always found it interesting that, the closest I came to this kind of "Nazi" architecture was in the US, especially in national labs and government architecture. That made me realize that it's a sign of the times and was more or less fashionable during that era, and by far not only in fascist countries.

Anyway, people create whatever they find interesting. Personally, I avoid using buildings that I think are too iconic (admittedly a rather arbitrary standard), and this one will be too big to be of any use to me. However, I'm sure someone will love it.

[R3V0 909]

1 hour ago, Turjan said:

I always found it interesting that, the closest I came to this kind of "Nazi" architecture was in the US, especially in national labs and government architecture. That made me realize that it's a sign of the times and was more or less fashionable during that era, and by far not only in fascist countries.

Anyway, people create whatever they find interesting. Personally, I avoid using buildings that I think are too iconic (admittedly a rather arbitrary standard), and this one will be too big to be of any use to me. However, I'm sure someone will love it.

When I was looking any visual material for a more general use (since building has not drawings left), i actually found it that the style is not Nazi related but it has is own style in architecture: Stripped Classicism. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripped_Classicism

Stripped Classicism (or "Starved Classicism" or "Grecian Moderne")^[1] is primarily a 20th-century classicist architectural style stripped of most or all ornamentation, frequently employed by governments while designing official buildings. It was adapted by both totalitarian and democratic regimes.^[A] The style embraces a "simplified but recognizable" classicism in its overall massing and scale while eliminating traditional decorative detailing.^[3][4][5][6] The orders of architecture are only hinted at or are indirectly implicated in the form and structure.

Though the term is usually reserved for the more thorough style that forms part of 20th-century rational architecture,^[5] characteristics of Stripped Classicism are embodied in works of some progressive late 18th- and early 19th-century neoclassical architects, such as Étienne-Louis Boullée, Claude Nicolas Ledoux, Friedrich Gilly, Peter Speeth, Sir John Soane and Karl Friedrich Schinkel.^[5]

Between the World Wars, a stripped-down classicism became the de facto standard for many monumental and institutional governmental buildings all over the world.^[2] Governments used this architectural méthode to straddle modernism and classicism, an ideal political response to a modernizing world.^[10] In part, this movement was said to have origins in the need to save money in governmental works by eschewing the expense of hand-worked classical detail.^[6]

So yeah, building style has nothing relevant to Nazism, since the architecture style was there long before them, and as the article suggest (as I had suggested like twice now), the style is connected to create still good looking buildings without the cost man d'oeuvre. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_House,_Helsinki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Supreme_Court_Building_(Nashville)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Mint

etc. 

Also started texturing the building. 

 

[AmiPolizeiFunk 446]

Thx for your post Jamonbread, you eloquently expressed much of what I feel. As an american ex-pat, I'm also seeing the worrisome worldwide trends that you describe. 

 

R3VO, you can't call this the "Südbahnhof" and then say that the architectural style is independent of Nazi ideology!

 

The difference between Milano Central and the Südbahnhof is that one exists and one doesn't. Milano Central has had almost 90 years of history to shape and reshape how it is received by Italians and visitors to Italy. I've been there many times, and it is always an interesting experience. Sudbahnhof, on the other hand, is an unrealized design by Albert Speer that now exists in a vacuum -- as a lunatic expression of Nazi totalitarianism. I'm glad that you told the story about how you're interested in megalomania and that you found it interesting that the Milano architecture dwarfs its surroundings, because indeed it does, and I've had that experience first-hand. I've also been to Tempelhof and Olympiastadion in Berlin (both Nazi designs), and I've felt how the massive concrete blocks make the individual feel insignificant. They are strong expressions of the State, and of the power of the State. The general feeling towards this kind of architecture now is that it just makes you feel cold and makes you not want to be there. Berlin spent billions trying to turn Olympiastadion into a place that fans would want to be, and although they've made it better, it's still not a great place to watch a football game. Tempelhof is so massive that it would cost too much to demolish the eyesore, so it just sits there! Berliners have re-purposed the landing strips as a park for flying kites and rollerblading.

 

I'm not "offended" and I'm certainly not trying to tell you what to make or not make for C:S! I'm just hoping you'll be aware of what you're doing and own it. Hey man how about just go full-throttle and add all of the Nazi banners and flags! Speer would be the one offended if he saw his design without its intended colors! Unfurling the banners down the eternal columns was the whole fun of it! Why half-ass it, man? People are gonna think it and do it anyway when they see it on the workshop. 

[R3V0 909]

2 minutes ago, AmiPolizeiFunk said:

Thx for your post Jamonbread, you eloquently expressed much of what I feel. As an american ex-pat, I'm also seeing the worrisome worldwide trends that you describe. 

 

R3VO, you can't call this the "Sudbahnhof" and then say that the architectural style is independent of Nazi ideology!

 

The difference between Milano Central and the Sudbahnhof is that one exists and one doesn't. Milano Central has had almost 90 years of history to shape and reshape how it is received by Italians and visitors to Italy. I've been there many times, and it is always an interesting experience. Sudbahnhof, on the other hand, is an unrealized design by Albert Speer that now exists in a vacuum -- as a lunatic expression of Nazi totalitarianism. I'm glad that you told the story about how you're interested in megalomania and that you found it interesting that the Milano architecture dwarfs its surroundings, because indeed it does, and I've had that experience first-hand. I've also been to Tempelhof and Olympiastadion in Berlin (both Nazi designs), and I've felt how the massive concrete blocks make the individual feel insignificant. They are strong expressions of the State, and of the power of the State. The general feeling towards this kind of architecture now is that it just makes you feel cold and makes you not want to be there. Berlin spent billions trying to turn Olympiastadion into a place that fans would want to be, and although they've made it better, it's still not a great place to watch a football game. Tempelhof is so massive that it would cost too much to demolish the eyesore, so it just sits there! Berliners have re-purposed the landing strips as a park for flying kites and rollerblading.

 

I'm not "offended" and I'm certainly not trying to tell you what to make or not make for C:S! I'm just hoping you'll be aware of what you're doing and own it. Hey man how about just go full-throttle and add all of the Nazi banners and flags! I think Speer would be the one offended if he saw his design without its intended colors! Unfurling the banners down the eternal columns was the whole fun of it. Why half-ass it, man? People are gonna think it and do it anyway when they see it on the workshop. 

Yeah good points actually. 

So we have an agreement that a made fascist station is ok in Milano, but it's not okay to use a never-made station and make something else differently from it ? Interesting logic here. If you like Milano Centrale, then you should also like Sudbahnhof or Nord or Volkshalle, since they all have SAME architectural style and made by same ideology. 

If you like one station then hate another, that's flawed logic. Milano Centrale and Sudbahnhof serve the same purpose. Either you are failing to explain why you like one fascist station and hate another or I dont see it. Both ideologies destroyed both countries and Italy got lucky because they were pretty much useless during WW2 and their capitulation was easier than Germany. 

Fact that one station is made and other is not doesn't serve anything here, since I am not "making" it for in real life but for a video game, it's pointless to argue about this perspective. 

As I said above (you should read messages before quoting it), station is not even Speer's design anymore since I made changes on it, I will probably release it in a different way. 

Speaking of which, I see what you're trying to do in your posts, I am not going to release any flags or banner. But I see maybe I should do it just to make some people angry. More you complain about it, more you increase the possibility of me, releasing 4K Ultra HD Nazi flags covered eternal columns. I have no plans to make such crap but hearing and the same accusations over and over again is making me fuhrerious. 

 

This is a videogame.

This is a building made with Grecian Modern style. Which is already there for years before nazis. 

I made Toronto Union station with same style and someone decorated with communist flags. Should I remove the asset ? 

Should Armesto remove his colonnade pack because somewhere on the world there's an individual covers colonnades with low res nazi emblems ?   

Stop overreacting, if you dont the like asset, downvote and move on, it shouldn't be difficult.

My god man, what a drama. 

 

[mutton noir 170]

I see nothing wrong in creating assets that are heavily influenced by  classical architectural styles. The problem would only be apparent if the building were to be adorned with obvious Nazi/Soviet icons and symbols that obviously can and do cause much offence to folks for very obvious reasons. Using these symbols would be interpreted as glorifying the regimes and doctrines of the authoritarian dictatorships they represent. Your building is simply inspired by classical architecture and has more than a passing reference to authoritarian architecture promoted in mid 20th century dictatorships. You could argue that you are creating an architectural style for an imaginary regime in an alternative timeline- future/past or alternative planet/universe. A little imagination goes a long way in a game like Cities Skylines and avoids the sensitivities associated with the evil regimes of Hitler Stalin and the like. Love your work!

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Your building looks impressive! I suggest you don’t give it the same name as the inspiration because your creation is unique and better. Not to mention having an original title will give it a better workshop rating than naming it after an abandoned nazi project. By all means list inspirations in the description. I really love Grecian Moderne and want to make some original/fictitious apartments in the Grecian Moderne style for Cities: Skylines.

[Turjan 1,048]

10 hours ago, R3V0 said:

Speaking of which, I see what you're trying to do in your posts, I am not going to release any flags or banner. But I see maybe I should do it just to make some people angry. More you complain about it, more you increase the possibility of me, releasing 4K Ultra HD Nazi flags covered eternal columns. I have no plans to make such crap but hearing and the same accusations over and over again is making me fuhrerious. 

That wouldn't be a good idea anyway, as this would actually be a criminal offense in several countries, and I don't think Steam will put in that much effort and block workshop content on a per country basis.

[Darf 1,439]

I don't really get your viewpoints: there's a lot of nazi architecture, symbols and flags in games and movies. It's not like Rev0 is making this model to glorify Nazi culture. Wouldn't it be even more interesting to create a city according to the Berlin city plan, to see why it wouldn't work?

[boformer 3,169]

7 hours ago, Darf said:

I don't really get your viewpoints: there's a lot of nazi architecture, symbols and flags in games and movies. It's not like Rev0 is making this model to glorify Nazi culture. Wouldn't it be even more interesting to create a city according to the Berlin city plan, to see why it wouldn't work?

Also, it's not like buildings built during that time were demolished after the war. In fact, many of them are now historical monuments. If the station in Berlin had been built, it would probably still be there today.

I don't think that Steam would ban the station if you don't publish it with nazi banners

The cemetery in my city:

The ministry of finance in Berlin:

[Turjan 1,048]

12 hours ago, Darf said:

I don't really get your viewpoints: there's a lot of nazi architecture, symbols and flags in games and movies. It's not like Rev0 is making this model to glorify Nazi culture. Wouldn't it be even more interesting to create a city according to the Berlin city plan, to see why it wouldn't work?

As I said, the building itself is okay. It's just a railway station. On the other hand, putting Nazi flags or symbols on the building wouldn't fly in Germany.

Spoiler

 

In Germany, films are recognized as works of art and have some kind of exemption from the general display prohibition of any Nazi symbols. Use of the symbols is generally not allowed, not even if you use them in a context that is directed against fascism, and you may end up in court. There are other exemptions, like specific history books, etc.

All games that are sold in Germany, including on Steam, are censored in this regard, no exceptions. While the question whether games qualify as works of art and are as such subject to the same exemption as films is valid, this question would have to be tried in court, because there is precedence where a game had been pulled from the market and all copies destroyed in a specific court case. That court case may not be binding, but it's there, and not a single company is willing to spend the money needed to find out the answer. As a result, everyone makes sure that situations that would result in such trouble don't happen.

 

 

[Johan_91 179]

So much fuzz about nothing. Revo has said many times over he is doing the building for the sake of architecture. 
He is neither glorifying nor supporting anything. There are tons of buildings related to some dark history, but that is no the point here. 
It is a game, it has no nazi banner on it. There are real life problem worth spending energy on, not this. 
Revo is a great asset creator and that's where the focus should be. 
We all know what it is about but I don't think this is the place for politics. Let's appreciate Revo's work instead.

/Over and out.

[Tim The Terrible 586]

Where do you guys get the time to write these essays on Nazism?

It's not like the building commited crimes against humanity, it's a damn building, and it's not a Nazi in uniform. Then you might as well remove and ban the Bundestag from the Workshop.

Same thing for the swastika, an innocent symbol that has been around for ages before the Nazis used it, and now it's taboo. (Finnish Air Force still uses them)

I'm on a train 

[Turjan 1,048]

1 hour ago, Tim The Terrible said:

Where do you guys get the time to write these essays on Nazism?

My last post was just an answer to Darf, in order to explain the law situation. I lived a long time in the US, and there many people don't understand that something like using certain historical symbols, regardless of intent, may be against the law. I think only two people in this thread have voiced concerns over the building itself.

[wasmic 111]

And now for something completely different.

I'm looking to try my hand at creating assets, more specifically the second generation S-trains from Copenhagen. However, I've been unable to find any schematic drawings of them. So, I just want to ask you, @R3V0, how do you usually create your models? Do you just look at pictures and do try to copy it as well as you can, or do you try to find schematics? Are there any other important tips that I should know?

[R3V0 909]

Thanks for your comments, 

I've been busy with cutting the building into multiple places to fit into game and LOD making so I wasn't able to respond in time. I also won "Railways" award, and i thank you for that. 

That said, here are some shots to compensate by absence: 

 

Quote

 

1. Ronyx and Simon are working on a new shader (particle) with timed setting that allows us to light all the building at the same time, if it's released ahead of my schedule, all complex will light up at the same time.

2. I am considering to release 1:2 version after 1:1 (that is 64*48 units)

As for wasmic

17 minutes ago, wasmic said:

And now for something completely different.

I'm looking to try my hand at creating assets, more specifically the second generation S-trains from Copenhagen. However, I've been unable to find any schematic drawings of them. So, I just want to ask you, @R3V0, how do you usually create your models? Do you just look at pictures and do try to copy it as well as you can, or do you try to find schematics? Are there any other important tips that I should know?

Couple of ways I did:

1. Use directly blueprints: I load blueprint into blender and reference blueprint's shape. (etc. Variobahn trams)

2. Use side drawings and a real life front picture: Only side drawings, base the model on it and only follow general topography of the picture (ex. Stadler EC250)

3. In case of no drawings, use direclty side photos and "improvise" front and top shapes by looking at different pictures (etc. Bombardier Twindexx Vario)

4. In case of no drawings NOR pictures taken from specific angles, just improvise (etc. Railwhale tram)

5. Make your own design (that doesnt involve any drawing or picture to load into blender, just "roll with it" (etc. Stadler X series trams)

I usually opt for blueprints but in case of none, you'll have to do with what you have. I always take specific height and other dimension from wikipedia or manufacturer's site, then create a box with these dimensions on blender. I use it as reference cube, since the model will have to occupy the same volume. After this, I start to shape the model. 

Tips can be varied from design to design, but usually i start with main body and do the nose section later, along with gears. As for gears, i use side pictures in case they exist, or i simply go and take pictures myself. 

ps: don't go overcomplex, start with simple topograhpy, then in case it's needed, you can divide faces if it's required. 

 

[wasmic 111]

Thank you very much! I hadn't thought of checking Wikipedia for information.

[Darf 1,439]

8 hours ago, Tim The Terrible said:

Where do you guys get the time to write these essays on Nazism?

It's not like the building commited crimes against humanity, it's a damn building, and it's not a Nazi in uniform. Then you might as well remove and ban the Bundestag from the Workshop.

Same thing for the swastika, an innocent symbol that has been around for ages before the Nazis used it, and now it's taboo. (Finnish Air Force still uses them)

I'm on a train 

What's even funnier, there's a couple Swastika's on my model of the Penobscot building. They are there on the real building. The swastikas are part of the building’s American Indian motif and symbolize sun worship. Never had any complaints about that.

[R3V0 909]

Progress update: 

I loaded one front + 1 side only that is crazy 22 subbuildings, yet Subbuilding function in asset editor handles it fine for the moment. Only that, I need to add another 11 subbuildings on the other side and finish top section. 

The way i did this is to keep every station track individiual, so they can be enabled/disabled with subbuildings tabs, assuming it will work.

The problem I have is road connection for these segments: 

 

Road access is required, despite that I reduced everything to 0 in these assets. Any idea how to cut off road requirement ? 

[Bad Peanut 826]

18 minutes ago, R3V0 said:

Progress update: 

I loaded one front + 1 side only that is crazy 22 subbuildings, yet Subbuilding function in asset editor handles it fine for the moment. Only that, I need to add another 11 subbuildings on the other side and finish top section. 

The way i did this is to keep every station track individiual, so they can be enabled/disabled with subbuildings tabs, assuming it will work.

The problem I have is road connection for these segments: 

 

Road access is required, despite that I reduced everything to 0 in these assets. Any idea how to cut off road requirement ? 

make sure you reduce garbage to 0, fire hazard to 0, and WORKERS to 0 (all levels) and it should remove road access needed

[R3V0 909]

13 hours ago, Bad Peanut said:

make sure you reduce garbage to 0, fire hazard to 0, and WORKERS to 0 (all levels) and it should remove road access needed

Seems I  was dumb. I left workers stats default thats why it happened. 

I also encountered missing ped paths issue. 

Basically, after dragging ped paths and saving the asset, peds are actually not saved but disappears in game instead, causing the misconnection between building entrance and sub stations. After reloading the asset in the editor, ped paths are always end up vanishing. 

I solved it by: 

1. Remake new asset
2. Load existing props and buildings
3. Delete ped paths, props, recalculate spawn points
4. Drags paths from the main building to sub stations
5. Save

(I'm posting the solution for future asset makings in case it reoccurs)

 

[Bad Peanut 826]

Just now, R3V0 said:

Seems I  was dumb. I left workers stats default thats why it happened. 

I also encountered missing ped paths issue. 

Basically, after dragging ped paths and saving the asset, peds are actually not saved but disappears in game instead, causing the misconnection between building entrance and sub stations. After reloading the asset in the editor, ped paths are always end up vanishing. 

I solved it by: 

1. Remake new asset
2. Load existing props and buildings
3. Delete ped paths, props, recalculate spawn points
4. Drags paths from the main building to sub stations
5. Save

(I'm posting the solution for future asset makings in case it reoccurs)

 

i think they are saved, but a bug from green cities requires you to load a saved asset twice before they appear, similarly if you're cloning an asset that has nets in it clone the template twice and they'll show up

[R3V0 909]

2 minutes ago, Bad Peanut said:

i think they are saved, but a bug from green cities requires you to load a saved asset twice before they appear, similarly if you're cloning an asset that has nets in it clone the template twice and they'll show up

Interesting, because I did that, then saved, but in game these ped paths still weren't there, so station wasn't being used 

[Bad Peanut 826]

23 minutes ago, R3V0 said:

Interesting, because I did that, then saved, but in game these ped paths still weren't there, so station wasn't being used 

Sometimes those hidden ped paths are just little bitches too haha

[AmiPolizeiFunk 446]

Just to confirm the bug that Bad Peanut mentioned, I've found that if you create a new asset in the editor, pick a template, check "load props," the first time you do it, no props will appear. If you do the exact same thing a second time, the props will appear. Pretty annoying!

[Tim The Terrible 586]

Sometimes I don't even have that whole button...

[R3V0 909]

Quote

Released: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1203211307

 

 

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Great work!  Now I know what to use for my biggest grand central station.