Jason's BATs & Tutorials

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Another thing that's come to mind is that in the early days of BAT4Max, there was some kind of "fix" done which corrected an alignment problem. But I don't remember what the alignment problem was. 

@rsc204 ok I was hoping that one of the settings changed which values it considered transparent or opaque. Like right now it seems like everything that is perfectly black is transparent and everything that is non-black is opaque (or maybe it's 50% grey and everything above or below is rounded up/down), but maybe there'd be an option for making perfect white opaque and everything non-white transparent. So you're saying you know what the settings do and they aren't useful?

Some fun storytelling from back in the day... Originally BAT4Max didn't automatically make and insert the .FSH files, it just spit out the output files to some folders and created a .bat file which you manually ran when you were ready. Then you manually inserted the .FSH files it created into the .SC4Model file. But the real pain was in doing the first TruNite (MaxisNite, before DarkNite was created) renders, where you had to manually go through and copy the day alphas and paste them to replace the night alphas. So I'm pretty sure I'd have start having flashbacks and panic attacks if I had to do something like that again.  

@mattb325 The background color is grey just like it's always been and that shouldn't be affecting the alpha but I'll give it a shot.

Edit: ok changing the background color to that just changed it to a black outline instead of a grey one. 

I think making it a matching green halo would make it passable but it's not an acceptable long term solution, and everyone else with newer versions of max has the same problem so I'll keep on seeing what I can do to solve it. It should be easier to work on a solution now that I have a newer version of max myself.

[rsc204 21,806]

Whilst you can enable transparency for models, that really only applies to seeing objects through glass/transparent areas that are not part of the model itself. The issue here is that the alpha channel itself does not correctly match the contours of the model, the halo represents the area the Alpha should be covering but isn't. Literally those halo lines will either be on (white) or a shade of grey that still allows too much of the edge to show through.

From what I could work out, that's the crux, 3DS max isn't correctly making the alpha channels so SC4 can't pick up on it. The edges should be more transparent and indeed this is something a lot of users would like to see fixed. It seems to affect 2014 and newer versions, so everyone on a student licence version is affected. I agree, long term it would be best if we could fix this issue by finding the cause. But sadly no one with the knowledge of the inner workings/scripting such as SimFox seems to be batting right now .

9 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

So you're saying you know what the settings do and they aren't useful?

I wouldn't go as far as rubber stamping that statement, but from what I understand that's correct. But the default settings work just fine when the alpha channel is correct in the first place. I also can't see how the model settings would be able to alter said alpha channel to correct the problem. Bearing in mind the models are still created by SC4 BAT, nothing here has changed.

Assuming you've used the default install path, you can verify the faulty alphas easily. Rendering a model, then open the C:\Program Files\Autodesk\3ds Max 2011\gamepacks\BAT\Outputfiles folder. Here are the BMPs that are exported by 3DS Max for FSH conversion. You can easily check them in a photo editor. Actually, if you run the scripts manually you can edit the images and import an edited set from here automatically. I must say, I didn't check the files here, the ones I tested for Matt were from the model file and converted from FSH. It might be worth double checking the BMPs to make sure it's not the FSH importing process that's altering the alpha channel, but I don't expect that to be the cause.

21 hours ago, JP Schriefer said:

The only way to disguise this problem so far I believe is to choose the background color in the render settings similar to the color of the building's edge. It may work when the edges have almost the same color, like yours. If you choose a greenish background it can get better to this building in my opinion.

Is this always necessary for each model? It's just helpful to gain more data, because that again confirms the alpha problem. I wonder how consistently the edges are off between different models. If a pattern for the error can be read from looking at samples of the problem, that might help pinpoint the solution.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Yeah, the root of the problem is that the alpha is antialiased, but I was just thinking that instead of changing the alpha we could change the way the game interprets the alpha. But if that's not an option then we're left with trying to fix the alpha directly again. 

It also occurred to me, for anyone wanting to manually fix the alphas, to get an ideal un-antialiased alpha, you can change the renderer to scanline, go to customize>preferences>rendering>don't antialias against background, and then go to the render set up window, and Common>Assign Renderer and change it to scanline. That way when you export you will get un-antialiased alphas which you can replace mental ray's antialiased alphas with so you don't need to go through photoshop. 

Also for anyone wanting to check alphas you can look at the alpha of your preview renders by clicking the little black and white circle that's next to the r g b circles at the top of the preview render window. From preview render to .FSH there's very little, if any, difference. 

Something that's confusing to me though is that older BATs without this problem also have antialiased alphas. Comparing the old and new Trier Tower alphas, the old ones are less antialiased in general but in some parts the new ones are actually much better, but there's still the problem. So it's all kind of mysterious. 

Also the way I'd think you'd improve the alpha is by going to the render set up window and going to Renderer and changing the contrast/noise threshold. How mental ray (in the classic/raytraced mode anyway) does its sampling is it keeps on taking samples (relative to the min and max samples you've set up) according to the contrast/noise threshold which is an rgb (and a) value. So if the red channel between two samples is off by more than, say, 0.02, then it takes more samples until the samples are consistent with each other, and the natural result of this is that it puts more samples into resolving detailed areas. Anyway, you'd think that lowering that number for the alpha channel would result in a sharper alpha and it kind of does but it doesn't fix the problem. I'm not aware of any other way of manipulating the alpha in max. I'll keep on googling though.

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Wonderful work you have here.

[metarvo 710]

Good work!    I'm very interested in the idea of buildings like this one in which the interior (such as furniture) can be BATted.  Your work is always top of the line, Jason, even if there are technical difficulties.

[SimCoug 5,972]

@Jasoncw I was in Milwaukee for a night this weekend and while walking around I came across a beautiful building and I immediately had an SC4 flashback.  Turns out it was your Northern Trust Bank (I think SG did a version too).  And SimGoobers Milwaukee club is on the same block.  I know I walked past a few of Nofunk's creations too... Milwaukee is full of some great old architecture.  
Anyway, just a funny story that I thought I would share. 

[Jasoncw 11,840]

1 hour ago, SimCoug said:

@Jasoncw I was in Milwaukee for a night this weekend and while walking around I came across a beautiful building and I immediately had an SC4 flashback.  Turns out it was your Northern Trust Bank (I think SG did a version too).  And SimGoobers Milwaukee club is on the same block.  I know I walked past a few of Nofunk's creations too... Milwaukee is full of some great old architecture.  
Anyway, just a funny story that I thought I would share. 

Yeah! 

A map should probably be made showing where the buildings are because there's a good number of them for the game. Those two are there, Jestarr's Gas Light Building, and my US Bank building are just to the east. And then there's all the other ones spread around. It's definitely one of the more represented cities in SC4. 

And for me some of the buildings I've recreated I know much better from SC4 than from real life so I still get excited when I see them lol. When all of those tiny pixels are suddenly a big real building in front of you.

[Kingdom city 13]

I have seen that in previous pages of this same post have published images of buildings very well done, I would like to know if they can or where to download them for the game.
Or are they simply exclusive to STEX discs from Simtropolis?

[Jasoncw 11,840]

If it's not on the stex then I haven't finished it yet.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Coincidentally... 

Originally I was going to finish the Guardian Building for December, but there's too much left to do on it. For that I'll get back to the grind and get it finished for January. 

But I'd still like to upload something in December. 

Current WIPs:

• Regal Theater V2
• Trier Tower V2
• Trier Station V2
• Art Deco Department Store
• Water Street Maisonettes Conversion
   
• Guardian Building
• 1001 Woodward
• The Kean
• Old Detroit Police Department HQ
• The Pavilion

 

Regal Theater V2

I've started Regal Theater V2. There's still a lot to do on it, and right now the building is in a bit of a chaotic state, because I'm working on the design as I go. So the sides of the building are a bit out of date, and the front still has plenty of work to do. 

Here's a link to the old one on the STEX: https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/16513-regal-theater/

I got the new massing to be very very close to the old massing while still keeping the design generally plausible.

The big box is the theater part itself. The part in front of the box contains stairs, dressing rooms, etc that would normally be put along the side of the main seating room. The stepback follows the angle of the seating so that the part that is cut out is the part of the theater with no seating, and so no need for stairs or other things to give access to the seating. Some of the windows will be filled in where the stairs and other things would be located. Some of the windows will be smaller for rooms that might have windows but not big ones. The filled in windows will be filled in with a spandrel piece, and I think it will create some interesting detail and variation without being very noticeable unless you're looking for it. 

I haven't designed the spandrels yet. They'll be dark aluminum, except for the top spandrels which will also have some yellow metal mixed in. The horizontal tan line above the ground line is temporary and will be replaced with a geometric relief carving. I did the tan line to get an idea of how it would affect the perception of the facade. I'm trying to correct/improve on the original (a lot of the specific details are really terrible and would be very noticeably so if you can actually see them clearly), while still keeping maintaining the basic character and impression of it. 

I'm still not sure if the theater box will be limestone like it's currently shown, or if it'll be brick. You can also see there's a temporary marquee. The building will only have one marquee this time. I'm also thinking the building would make more sense as mainly a 4x2, rather than a 2x4. So this is the front now instead of the side. 

I'd still like input about what you guys want from a Regal Theater V2. Like I said before, I don't want to George Lucas it. 

 

Trier Tower V2 and Trier Station V2

The BATing for these is almost done. If everything goes smoothly I'll have these uploaded in December. 

 

Art Deco Department Store

I've modified the massing since I've last posted about this, and so it's pretty messy right now. The nice thing about recreations is that once you model something it's usually done, while when you're working on a design while your modeling it you have to go back and edit things a lot.  

First I have to clean it up. Then I have to model the skylight, and model the interior visible from the skylight. I'll be populating it with department store stuff, probably from my Design Research BAT. After that is some routine texturing and nitelites. I'd like to try to get this finished for December as well. 

 

Water Street Maisonette Conversion

This is an adaptation of an architecture project. I think I've mentioned it before but I don't have any preview renders handy. I'd still like to eventually do this but I don't have plans for doing it soon, so don't worry about it. 

 

Guardian Building 

I've been posting about this in the mipro thread. This will be the priority in January. 

 

1001 Woodward

As always, the BAT is practically done, but I need to figure out the lotting and how to adapt it successfully to the game. In hindsight I should have thought more about that before starting it. I'd like to finally finish this in 2017, and actually do it this time.  

I don't have a preview render on hand for this but it's the black modern office midrise that's been 95% done since 2010. Isn't that enough for you to identify it?  

 

The Kean

I should probably finish this someday too shouldn't I.  

 

The Pavilion and Old Detroit Police Department HQ

If I did the Pavilion I would need to restart it. I'd still like to make it though. I never had very much of the old Police Department HQ modeled in the first place, and all these years later with more experience and better reference it would be faster to restart than to continue with what I had. So I'm downgrading the status of both of these. They are now below "WIP" status, but above "not existing" status. I'm going to stop including them in future WIP lists. 

 

So basically between now and January or February I'd like to have uploaded: Guardian Building, Trier Tower V2, Trier Station V2, Art Deco Department Store, and Regal Theater V2. Later in 2017 I'd like to upload 1001 Woodward and The Kean. 

[Vlasky 1,803]

Fanastic as always.

About the Regal Theater, I always loved how creamy it was in color. And altho the limestone facade is spectacular I think it might be too cool for the original color.

In my mind, the bircks on the auditorium box part were always integral part of the theater. I would love to see them in the new version as well. Don't get me wrong, new thing looks great, but I would like the character of the original to remain. 

As for Art deco store, I forgot about that marvelous thing. I would like to know where does the floaing part fits in in the original. 

[matias93 7,535]

So.. much... Wonderful.

That department store deserves to be built in RL!

About the lotting: what if you release the building on a blank lot and let some lotter to do their magic? We have seen some great relots lately, this could result very good..

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Thanks guys  

@VlaskyIt was always meant to be a limestone facade, it's just at the time I didn't know how to make a good limestone color. Next time I work on the building I'll see how the theater box is in brick. 

For the department store, the part in the back used to extend along almost the entire back, and the skylight went in between them. So the two penthouses and the skylight made kind of an I shape (or a sideways H shape). So if you imagine the floating part going straight down, and the skylight being extended a little bit in order to meet it, that's what it used to look like. 

@matias93 Thanks! Unfortunately I got a little ambitious, and I won't be releasing the art deco department store in December like I said.  I think just Trier Tower and Station V2. 

I'd be happy to get advice from lotters on how to make 1001 Woodward's lotting work. But the problem isn't about how to skillfully place props and stuff so that it looks good, the problem is that this is a diagonal building that doesn't fit the SC4 grid. 

Here is a basic explanation of the problem, using an image I've already put on imgur. 

And here's the building in google maps: https://goo.gl/maps/M31gnSHrCAL2 

The side of the lot that is labeled F1 is the front of the building. This side is Woodward Avenue, and the elevator tower is wall to wall with the neighboring building. The side of the lot that is labeled F2 is the side of the building. In real life the building is on a diagonal lot, and the gap makes a small plaza. Maybe this could also be considered the front of the building. But the other side (labeled F3? F1? in one of them) is not a "side" at all, in real life there's a little building next door. But if the building were kept at its real life scale and lotted (#2), it makes it seem like the giant plaza is the front of the building, and F1 is the back of the building. Imagine the building growing in a city and the big plaza being in the back. #1 and #3 scale the building down or up to fill the lot better, but this distorts the building quite a bit. #4 scales the building bigger to fill the lot but also makes the building taller to keep the proportions slightly closer to the original, but this seems to look even worse. 

Another option would be to model the small white building that's next door (technically I think it might be attached, but I'm not sure). But that is problematic because it's a different architecture style, it doesn't fit on the SC4 grid in one direction. So in order to have this building be included I would have to put part of it on 1001's lot, and then make a separate 1x2 lot with the other half of the building. 

AND THEN! On top of that, the lot size of 1001 has implications for the rest of the block, which does have another building that we'd like to do, the David Stott Building, which is the red brick skyscraper on the same block behind 1001. And the David Stott Building is about  1.5x1.5 tiles big. Because the two streets aren't perfectly parallel it makes the block 5 tiles wide in total, while the same block, keeping the roads parallel (like what would have to happen in SC4) it should be 4 tiles wide. But then again how much does this block really matter when this part of downtown is already impossible to properly recreate in the first place? 

Another option would be to BAT 1001, plus the small white building, all together in one piece and only offer a ploppable overhang version, but I feel like for players that would be a very complicated solution for a simple building. This isn't a gigantic Hong Kong apartment tower complex that needs special placement, it's just a normal 60s office tower. 

So basically in every way imaginable this building does not fit into the game.  

So I'd like to warn all BATers, if you want to do a recreation make sure it actually works before starting it.  

But despite the problems I'd still like to get this released in 2017. 

 

Minor update on Trier Tower (so much simpler!): 

I did a little bit of experimenting with the glass and interior but ended up just deleting it. But I did do some other minor tweaking, and I added in some furniture to the lobby. I think the day version is done. Next will be the nitelites, and then exporting. I have 3ds Max 2012 now so the grey halo shouldn't be as bad as it was before. 

[gutterclub 2,729]

Trier Tower is looking great, so glad you decided to revisit - thank you!!!

Rest of your works are stunning as usual.

As for 1001. I see your conundrum. Not sure it will ever be resolved as it looks real tricky, other than batting the whole block including roads together? Would be such a shame to see it wasted though..any possibility of releasing a non-recreation, othagonal version, then once ready release the v2?

Keep up the awesome work and happy new year! Glad to see you still going strong in 2017

[T Wrecks 10,209]

TBH, I wouldn't waste that much brain juice for the growable version at least. Those who grow are probably not going for a fully perfect Detroit Replica, but simply want to have a great and realistic highrise building of best BAT quality for their cities - slap it on any conventional lot size where it will compete with Maxis buildings and other skyscrapers, adding variety and realism, and they'll be happy.

If anything, I'd reserve more thought for a ploppable version. I could see that as an overhanging lot that players will be able to surround with FA roads as the situation demands, and that's it.

Maybe I'm just being a caveman here who insists that smacking things hard enough with a wooden club will fix pretty much anything while architecturally sensitive people wince at my ignorance, but that's the way I see it.

[IDS2 3,346]

I'm glad to see you revisiting 1001 Woodward, because I've always liked how you did the cladding material. I'm personally in favor of option 2 (normal size). I doubt the angles of Woodward/Griswold/Michigan are even possible using FAR pieces. This building lends itself really well to being used just about anywhere, so putting it on a 4x3 with a plaza would probably work just fine for most players (someone attempting a recreation could always produce a custom lot). Whereas with something like the Compuware building you would really be hamstrung by the fact that it's just a weird building with odd angles. 

I know it's been said already, but the Guardian Building is looking fantastic. 

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Happy New Year!!! 

I uploaded Trier Tower V2.  

STEX Upload:

I also entered it into the custom content competition. So go ahead and rate it when voting opens. 

 

I didn't manage to finish Trier Station V2 in time, or the art deco department store for that matter. BATing always seems so fast until you're actually doing it.  

I did see the new Star Wars movie though.  

But here's some current preview renders of Trier Station V2. The stairs and railing need the most work. I'll be putting in some interior furniture (some Barcelona Chairs that I also put in Trier Tower V2). The bright opaque panels are not showing up the same color as before because the glass in front of it is reflecting the dark roof, which is making the glass parts overall look darker. So I'll be working on that, because I'd like those parts to be brighter like they were before. 

The main work I've done so far, other than updating the materials to match the ones on Trier Tower V2, has been to remodel the glass and window frames and doors, as well as part of the interior. It's hard to see the interior but I'm hoping the new version of this will have more visible interiors. The old interiors didn't have anything in it, and you couldn't see the inside very well anyway because of a glass setting I didn't understand at the time. 

 

[JP Schriefer 5,590]

Great job at the tower, Jason! I like the station this way, but I'm sure your improvements will make it better anyway

[matias93 7,535]

Just nerdy curiosity on that marvellous piece: what is supposed to be inside the station? I've always thought on its internal distribution, and the most I could grasp is that the ticket offices would be on the side buildings, at street level, and that the central stairs could be only exit (at least on rush hour)

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Wonderful work on this building Trier Station V2.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Thanks everyone!  

@gutterclub @T Wrecks @IDS2 There's this separate little section at the end of the building that I hadn't included. If I include that, and then scale the building to fit the 3x4 lot, then the scaling might not be too bad. And then I can BAT the white building next door as a 1x2. Here's the section in google maps: https://goo.gl/maps/4wRZykFkUAy 

I think that might be enough to make this work. Next time I'm working on the building I'll give it a try. 

@JP Schriefer It's almost done, the remaining changes won't be very obvious.  

@matias93 uhhhhh.... So the inside doesn't actually make any sense at all lol. I mean there's stairs that go down, obviously to the subway platforms. And there's also some elevators that go down (those are the tall parts that stick up above the roofs). But what the two pavilions are used for... idk. This is also technically a bus station, so one of the pavilions could be a waiting room for that. If I put in some more stairs maybe the other pavilion could be a convenience store. This was made before I took these kinds of things into consideration.  

@Aaron Graham Thanks!

[nofunk 1,933]

So happy to see you rebooting some of my (and I'm sure others') favorites!

[gutterclub 2,729]

Hopefully its inspiring *cough* Park Avenue Building *cough* Hotel Wolverine *cough*  

[T Wrecks 10,209]

I agree. There are also some buildings that won't need much of a makeover IMO, but unfortunately lack a DarkNite compatible render...

[Diego Del Llano 5,206]

WHAT HAPPEND TO YOUR TUTORIALS ?

[Jasoncw 11,840]

ok everyone, after a few years of the links and images being broken I've gone through and FIXED EVERYTHING.  

 

All of the links in the first page of the thread should all go to their respective tutorial posts, and all of the images in all of the tutorials should be fixed. 

I also did a little bit of minor editing and added in a few notes, based on a few more years of experience. 

Some of the tutorials are very good and some of them are just ok, but if you haven't seen the tutorials before I recommend going to the first page of this thread and going through and looking at all of them.  

I'm sorry for taking so long!

[Diego Del Llano 5,206]

This is Why we love you ! (in a good way)    

[JP Schriefer 5,590]

That's awesome, Jason! Thank you very much

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Thanks guys.

And now thanks to @JP Schriefer the BAT list in the first post now links to the individual BATs. 

[nofunk 1,933]

On 1/2/2017 at 0:00 AM, gutterclub said:

Hopefully its inspiring *cough* Park Avenue Building *cough* Hotel Wolverine *cough*  

Those sure could use reboots, couldn't they? Maybe i need to go dust off those old model files... gotta find 'em first.