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Indiana Joe

~The Bay~ A prefab region with NAM highway and rail networks

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Nice looking project there. *:)

 

1 hour ago, Indiana Joe said:

For now I have hosted the file on ModDB.  At present, as far as I'm aware, prefabricated regions are not allowed on any of the local community exchanges.  This region in a ZIP file is only 3.3 megabytes, so it is smaller than many other files, and I hope new considerations will be made in light of this project.

CB and I have previously discussed this sort of thing with regard to complete regions being hosted on the STEX and we have already been allowing them. Key considerations are there's no dependencies included in the upload (unless one's own creations) and whatever dependencies are needed are listed with linkys. You've covered that perfectly here cause for NAM everyone knows where to find it. (And while I'm sure you've made a .zip, we don't allow a gazillion loose cities.)

Basically, we are looking at this sort of upload on a case by case basis if any review seems necessary. As long as there are only a few now and then, we feel up to 50 MB can be uploaded. However, if we start getting a GB per month we might need to reconsider (or limit) such uploads. Our server free space is a wee bit under 400 GB atm and it's dropping at the rate of 25 or so per month. We'll be checking with the boss (Dirk) to see if there are multiple backup copies being stored causing this and if so, to see if a couple of them could be tossed out to free up 200-400 more GB. We aren't widely advertising this in order to limit the quantity of large uploads so it's like an open secret. *;)

So, for now, you have the green light for this project and a later one up to 50 MB if you decide to. *:)

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    Cori I may take you up on putting it on the STEX, so it doesn't get buried under new topics with 0 downloads.  I was hoping to get just a few people to take a look at it and make sure everything worked with their NAM installations, but I may have to give it some exposure.  I do want to make sure @infamousjbe sees this since he resurrected the topic this month.

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    1 hour ago, Indiana Joe said:

    Cori I may take you up on putting it on the STEX, so it doesn't get buried under new topics with 0 downloads.

    Go for it. *:)

    I've a multitude of other projects and I mostly use NAM for the rural things like SAM dirt roads and such so I apologize for not being a tester.

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    This is a really neat idea as a template starter region. *:8)

    As Cori encouraged, it'll certainly be a brilliant addition to the STEX in the Maps category, and then adding a link back to this thread might be useful too.

    (I've featured your topic here for greater visibility in the topic feed on the sidebars and the homepage list.)


    This whole concept is ideal for accessibility. For sharing purposes, a key consideration with dependencies of a region is how there are minimal items of content required. Otherwise it'd needs downloading dozens and dozens (and dozens) of deps, and that's assuming the author has listed them correctly.

    What you've done here is very smart. With a big modding framework like the NAM provides, it opens up many possibilities given there are an abundance of options. There's lots of potential here for themed cities with various types of interchanges pre-built. Then crucially as you say with the primary advantage of allowing city building to take place from the outset, without needing to make room for these often complex but equally important transportation networks.

    It could even give new NAMites the inspiration to try their hand at learning the various techniques. (I'd like to do so someday.)


    Just a quick mention...

    Given her growing range of NAM tips and tutorials, I can imagine this is something @Naomi57 might particularly be interested in as well. *;)

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    1 hour ago, Cyclone Boom said:

    Given her growing range of NAM tips and tutorials, I can imagine this is something @Naomi57 might particularly be interested in as well. *;)

    Yes, I've been thinking about this, too.  Well done with your transit network, @Indiana Joe, it looks like just enough to provide beginner users with a regional road traffic and rail backbone, while still leaving them plenty of space for their own creativity to flourish.  Your choice of large city tile is a good one, too, being mostly water, it's more forgiving economically.

    Just a couple thoughts I've got:

    1. I'd suggest you recommend a specific slope mod, possibly even the one you used, and perhaps one or two alternatives.  While I've been doing vanilla SimCity 4 for years, and very expert at terraforming, I'm still new to mods.  I still haven't installed a slope mod yet, for the simple reason that I don't know which one to choose!  *:P  Novice users have a similar issue, and are likely to just run without a slope mod at all, for lack of direction on the issue.  Alternatively, have you considered doing a Slope Mod Shoppe, @CorinaMarie?  
       
    2. Do you have some orthogonal coastline in each city?  Orthogonal coastlines are vitally important for Beach, Ferry, Marina and Sea Port plops to work.

    I'm approaching the issue of novice users, too, from the perspective of writing tutorials to come up to speed with SimCity 4 economic gameplay, NIMBY/YIMBY, pollution, and getting started on NAM features.  Here's a couple of my tutorials for new NAM players, but I'm not sure how they'd fit in with your project.

    NAM36: Starting Out advice for newcomers

    One of the best NAM video collections for newcomers is the MGB NAM YouTube channel, because he explains carefully and moves very slowly.  Here's his best two videos for newbies, IMHO ...

    NAM36 Tutorial: Starting Out with RHW interchanges and Draggable Ramps (DRI) 

    ... you'll find that ramps, coupled with the simple little RHW-2, delivers powerful options for high capacity suburban interchanges, like this very simple diamond interchange below. ...

    One concern I've got with providing a prebuilt transit network, is that I've noticed that some NAM features are fragile.  In particular, I noticed that FLEXRamps tend to break in game, at some point during the first 10 sim-years, though I think the DRI equivalents might be more robust.

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    Well hell, lookie here!               Seems this idea sparked some motivation. Glad to see it.

     

    I currently play on a 4x4 medium region as it is. Not saying I wouldn't have minded getting my feet wet with a rather larger region. The honest truth is, even though i might be popping up again, I still don't have as much time to play as I would if given the opportunity. 

    I'll jump in and return with praise or constructive criticism. *;)

     

    9 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

     

    No quote.....  just credit where credit is due. I want to extend my gratitude to all the work you've put in over the last couple years. You popped up on the forums about the time I went into hiatus again. To see how much work you've put in has been unbelievable. It's because of dedicated players like yourself is mainly the reason why this game has stuck around for so long. so thank you for everything you've done, even if I wasn't around to appreciate it properly. :thumb:

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    5 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    I still haven't installed a slope mod yet, for the simple reason that I don't know which one to choose!

    There are so many settings in each slope exemplar that finding an ideal set of them "off the rack" is about as likely as finding your ideal collection of music at a garage sale. I recommend that you get any comprehensive slope mod (e.g. Ennedi), and install any one of its variants, and then fiddle with all of the settings in the iLives Reader to see how each one affects play.

    Then dial in settings to suit your own play style and aesthetic sense. Once you experience the radical playability  + aesthetics transformations possible, you'll wonder how you ever played SC4 without your own customized slope exemplars.

    Needless to say, fiddling is best done in an expendable city that can be used as a sandbox and then reset.

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    Up on the STEX!  Also my first upload ever, 10 years after joining the site. *:party:
     

    3 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

    There are so many settings in each slope exemplar that finding an ideal set of them "off the rack" is about as likely as finding your ideal collection of music at a garage sale. I recommend that you get any comprehensive slope mod (e.g. Ennedi), and install any one of its variants, and then fiddle with all of the settings in the iLives Reader to see how each one affects play.

    Then dial in settings to suit your own play style and aesthetic sense. Once you experience the radical playability  + aesthetics transformations possible, you'll wonder how you ever played SC4 without your own customized slope exemplars.

    Needless to say, fiddling is best done in an expendable city that can be used as a sandbox and then reset.

     

    Agreed, there's not really a point to doing a "slope mod shoppe", since they are all the same thing, just with different steepness values, and that's easy enough to edit.  However for simplicity's sake, I have uploaded the modified slope mod I used to make the region, so as to avoid "unsuitable slope" errors when trying to expand the region's highway/rail networks.  It's an optional part of the STEX download.

     

    8 hours ago, Naomi57 said:
    1. Do you have some orthogonal coastline in each city?  Orthogonal coastlines are vitally important for Beach, Ferry, Marina and Sea Port plops to work.

    There are a couple of near-orthogonal spots where you can put beaches, but it has not been flattened or terraformed into a perfectly straight coastline.  It is an organic landscape, much like the original regions that come with the game, but with some near-flat plains throughout most of it to encourage building.  You will have to hand-tame the landscape to fit your urban areas.  That is what I intended.

    Also check out this oldie but goodie STEX upload, Beaches for Irregular Coasts:

     

    8 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    One concern I've got with providing a prebuilt transit network, is that I've noticed that some NAM features are fragile.  In particular, I noticed that FLEXRamps tend to break in game, at some point during the first 10 sim-years, though I think the DRI equivalents might be more robust.

    Never seen that before, sounds like some sort of bug.  The only time I have found network pieces break is when the terrain is changed in some way.  It is possible that this happens without user input, for example when using the Diagonal Bridge Enabler.

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    9 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

    Alternatively, have you considered doing a Slope Mod Shoppe, @CorinaMarie?  

    Nope. *:P

    (And I have too many interesting other projects in the works so I confess this isn't something I'll get around to any time soon (or ever).) *:blush:

     

    3 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

    I recommend that you get any comprehensive slope mod (e.g. Ennedi), and install any one of its variants, and then fiddle with all of the settings in the iLives Reader to see how each one affects play.

    You could also add a linky to your post here where you gave some suggestions on what to tweak. *;)

     

    Edit: And there is @rsc204's guide here for an overview: Slope Mods: A Brief Guide

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    11 hours ago, Indiana Joe said:

    Never seen that before, sounds like some sort of bug.  The only time I have found network pieces break is when the terrain is changed in some way

    Yes, @rsc204 confirmed that it's a bug, and I'm in discussion with him on this support thread now, to see if we can get a reproducible case so it can be fixed.   It has nothing to do with terrain changes, nor diagonal bridge builder.  Rather, it seems to relate to close adjacency of certain NAM features, but I could be wrong.  At a guess, my discovering the bug probably relates to my play style in highway construction.

    Thanks for the mod recommendation @Indiana Joe, I've added it to my list to try out one day!  With my love of seaside landscapes, that might even become a favourite.  *:ohyes:

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    23 hours ago, Indiana Joe said:

    there's not really a point to doing a "slope mod shoppe", since they are all the same thing, just with different steepness values

    Well... There's even more than steepness, much more, which just multiplies the possibilities. Each "slope" exemplar also defines build costs, height differences for bridge end points, number of smoothing steps (and the reach of each step)... There are maybe 30 parameters inside each exemplar, and there's one exemplar per base network, so every person on the planet could have a unique slope mod.

    I don't think the "slope mods" out there even touched the smoothing settings, and I find those to be especially valuable, so I tell everyone to edit to suit.

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    I actually have plans of creating a Slope Mod Shoppe as part of my Earthworks Tutorials series. So far I've identified six different slope mods (anyone who knows of others, please let me know), but have not started demonstrating them. As far as differences go there's the following:

    • Not all slope mods alter all networks. The older ones, for instance, do not alter the Real Highway network as it was not known to players until the NAM team got around with digging out from the unused rural road game assets to create its predecessor, the Rural Highway Mod. I exploit this property because the Rural Road's slope is very steep, allowing me to make constructed slopes, and it also means I can use other networks' slopes to my advantage: mainline RHW gets the stricter elevated rail slope, ramps/interchanges get road slope, and if the terrain is too challenging I make a design exception to use the Avenue slope.
       
    • Some slope mods not only define a slope, but also vertical curvature. I, for instance, am a loyal user of the old BigRedFish slope mod, precisely because the road's slope definition includes vertical curvature.
       
    • The game's default slope mod has a set of coded rules in which, after certain differences in terrain elevation relative to the network's surface (pavement/rails), some networks can form either retaining walls, land viaducts and land bridges. This property is explicitly exploited by the NAM Diagonal Bridge Enabler, which sets the slope to 0 and has a very low threshold difference to facilitate the formation of the land viaduct.

    It seems that this shoppe will trade quantity of mods for a quality and in-depth explanation of each slope mod and its different properties.

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    19 minutes ago, Lucario Boricua said:

    So far I've identified six different slope mods (anyone who knows of others, please let me know), but have not started demonstrating them.

    That matches my count from September, 2016 when I was investigating them.

    The two most commonly recommended are:

    And the 4 others I'm aware of:

    I personally use the Mount 620 from Ennedi's slope mod. (There are a few different ones included in that download). I then made minor edits to make the Avenue have the same slope parameters as the Road because I grow my cities from a rural infancy on up to whatever they become. It irked me that when I needed to upgrade Roads to Avenues thru my hills and dales that the slope mod originally fought me every step of the way.

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    Seems there's more than 6. Here are the ones that @CorinaMarie did not mention:

     

     

    From the looks of it we have seven main slope mods (including sub-variants of some) and two auxiliary mods to cover the two most niche networks, the Real Highway and the Monorail/Bullet Train/High Speed Rail. I believe this is enough material to get started on the Slope Mod Shoppe! I'll leave the discussion up to this post to avoid de-railing the current forum topic.

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    3 hours ago, Lucario Boricua said:

     CSX Tunnel and Slope Mod--another derivative from BigRedFish's original mod
    https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=72

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    Colyn said:
    have modified it to be between the BRF Mod and the Maxis standard.

    This is the one I've shortlisted as my first slope mod to try.  The combination of BigRedFish's expertise, and the greater flexibility of settings that are a bit closer to Maxis standard, sounds like the perfect compromise of easy aesthetics and ease of gameplay.  For the gentlest slops, I can use heavy rail or light rail to create a slope, then lay a highway or ramps on it.

    I prepare the land using Ctrl+Alt+Shift God mode Quick Level Brush for most of my rail and highway infrastructure anyway, doing earthworks or terraforming around that, saving frequently!   :O  The only exceptions for me are bridges, tunnels, coastlines, and deliberate earthworks/terraforming for a specific mountain (or rolling hills) highway project.  When I take the dive, I think I'll run with a very flexible slope mod most of the time, with only occasional use of a more strict slope mod for specific earthworks/terraforming projects.

    Thank you @jeffryfisher, @Lucario Boricua, @Cyclone Boom and @CorinaMarie, for all your advice and experiences on slope mods!

    And especially thank you to @Indiana Joe, who kicked off this conversation, and produced the first appropriate NAM sample region that I've ever seen.  I'm a big believer in making SimCity 4 + NAM more approachable to a wider audience, and this kind of project fits one of the key needs for that objective.

    Who knows, I might do a sweet little beach-side ferry + NAM sample region myself one day, but for now I'm deeply invested in my NAM learning curve and New York inspired project.

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    4 minutes ago, Naomi57 said:

    I prepare the land using Ctrl+Alt+Shift God mode Quick Level Brush

    Speaking of this, have any of us mentioned this wonderful little tool:

    ^ That'd go well on your short list of mods to try someday. *;)

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    On 10/29/2019 at 2:25 PM, Lucario Boricua said:

    I actually have plans of creating a Slope Mod Shoppe as part of my Earthworks Tutorials series. So far I've identified six different slope mods (anyone who knows of others, please let me know), but have not started demonstrating them. As far as differences go there's the following:

    • Not all slope mods alter all networks. The older ones, for instance, do not alter the Real Highway network as it was not known to players until the NAM team got around with digging out from the unused rural road game assets to create its predecessor, the Rural Highway Mod. I exploit this property because the Rural Road's slope is very steep, allowing me to make constructed slopes, and it also means I can use other networks' slopes to my advantage: mainline RHW gets the stricter elevated rail slope, ramps/interchanges get road slope, and if the terrain is too challenging I make a design exception to use the Avenue slope.
       
    • Some slope mods not only define a slope, but also vertical curvature. I, for instance, am a loyal user of the old BigRedFish slope mod, precisely because the road's slope definition includes vertical curvature.
       
    • The game's default slope mod has a set of coded rules in which, after certain differences in terrain elevation relative to the network's surface (pavement/rails), some networks can form either retaining walls, land viaducts and land bridges. This property is explicitly exploited by the NAM Diagonal Bridge Enabler, which sets the slope to 0 and has a very low threshold difference to facilitate the formation of the land viaduct.

    It seems that this shoppe will trade quantity of mods for a quality and in-depth explanation of each slope mod and its different properties.

    Do you have any recommendation on a slope mod to use with the Sudden Valley terrain to enable the retaining walls, land viaducts, land bridges ect? I love the SV terrain, but I've tried every slope mod I could find, and none of them make forming retaining walls possible under seemingly any circumstances. No matter what I do, the land is formatted and smoothed out instead of forming retaining walls.

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    @junspud

    You may have to edit the slope mod yourself. I've listed the settings which control whether there are supports or retaining walls in this post.

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    On 11/5/2019 at 6:40 PM, CorinaMarie said:

    @junspud

    You may have to edit the slope mod yourself. I've listed the settings which control whether there are supports or retaining walls in this post.

    Thanks.. I've tried changing the MaxTerrainHtIncrease value for road placement from the default to 30000, didn't notice any difference, so now I've tried changing it to 10000. I think I may have messed up by increasing the number originally instead of decreasing it.

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    @junspud

    Also remember there are two other values at play as well. One for the supports and one for the walls so it's a combination of tweaking all 3 depending on the result you are seeking. *;)

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    Everything seems to work with NAM 37, except I had to re-draw the bridges across the river which were broken by the update.  Must've been an ID change somewhere.  The file has been updated.

     

    I could try to add some NAM 37 crossings and curves into it.  The small map hasn't proven to be very popular, though.  What the people want are mega-regions, this being one of the few games that allows that.

     

    Most players never actually fill up all that space, but I know it's the idea that you could use it.  Problem is that takes a long time, even just to build the infrastructure.

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    14 hours ago, Indiana Joe said:

    that takes a long time, even just to build the infrastructure

    I liked building the infrastructure. What was really tedious though was installing water on the lakes (I flattened lake "surfaces" well above sea-level and then used PEG Ponds to paint them as water).

    A small prefab region would be ideal for things like testing mods in development or learning a new mod (or part of mod one has never used before).

    A prefab region could also be handy for sharing examples of development among a community like ours. If everyone has a "swapping" copy of such a standard region, then we could swap cities that fit in it.

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    From personal experience, regions whose sizes exceed 40km X 40km (square of 10 large city districts per side) tend to be overkill in terms of space for most players, while 12km X 12km are actually smaller than most of the game's included regions (I beleive only Fairview is significantly smaller).

    Another important thing to keep in mind is that a region whose terrain is either too simple (ex. very flat, straight coastlines) or too complicated (numerous small islands, steep topography throughout, jagged coastlines) also leave a much smaller "interesting" yet "usable" area to build. Regions whose terrain is moderately varied with comfortable flat areas alternating with some bits of challenging terrain are ideal to keep the player engaged, as the negative space presented by the tough terrain help steer the development into something pleasing and functional.

    @Indiana Joe

    If you ever want to re-attempt the experiment of making a region with a pre-fabricated transport network, you're very welcome to use any of the ones I've published. If I may suggest some of the better candidates, I'd definitely go with either Aguadilla, Humacao and the compact version of San Juan:

     

     

     

     

    Alternatively, I could prepare one of these if there's enough interest.

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    If'n y'all decide to create another region, the size isn't nearly as much concern as before. @Cyclone Boom and I did some digging deep in the server and found a spare 376 GB that was duplicates of duplicates. Ofc, you can't have it all, but now if a region would be, say, 100 MB or 200 MB zipped up that's something we could allow.

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    Nice to be able to install without using SC4Mapper or Terraformer. When I use the 2 I have no completion on my computer. Unfortunately my region has not loaded the train tracks, I think it must be because I use NAM 36 yet.

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    On 21/07/2020 at 2:41 AM, Mercandelle said:

    Unfortunately my region has not loaded the train tracks, I think it must be because I use NAM 36 yet.

    Probably because they were made using the RealRailway (RRW) component and you aren't using it or the other way around. You can click all along the tracks sections to get most of it to appear, but some pieces of RRW simply aren't supported without using it. As of NAM 37, RRW is now the default NAM rail system.

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    Head over to my Lot and Mod Shack to keep abreast of my latest developments.

    Do you like custom textures, but don't like all the work involved creating them?, take a look at the Texture Automation options here. Change the look and feel of your transit networks, with the minimum of effort, for example customised versions of my Sidewalk NAM (SWN) and Terrain Grass NAM (TGN) mods, and much more besides.

    New to the NAM? Check out my tutorials on YouTube. Latest upload: How to: RHW - MHO Roundabout Interchanges. (Nov 25).

    p.s. - I'm MGB over on SC4D and a member of the NAM team.

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    25 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

    Provavelmente porque eles foram criados usando o componente RealRailway ( RRW ) e você não o está usando ou o contrário. Você pode clicar em todas as seções das faixas para que a maioria apareça, mas algumas partes do RRW simplesmente não são suportadas sem usá-lo. A partir do NAM 37, o RRW agora é o sistema ferroviário NAM padrão .

    Thank you.

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    5 hours ago, rsc204 said:

    Provavelmente porque eles foram criados usando o componente RealRailway ( RRW ) e você não o está usando ou o contrário. Você pode clicar em todas as seções das faixas para que a maioria apareça, mas algumas partes do RRW simplesmente não são suportadas sem usá-lo. A partir do NAM 37, o RRW agora é o sistema ferroviário NAM padrão .

    Rsc204 or other people, I tried in every corner to find this RealRailway and not succeed. Is there a link hosted here that you can share?

    Thank you.

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