Residential community?

[robdragon 167]

Hi Guys and Gals

I'm considering on creating a couple of lots.

Right now just in the initial planning stage.

I have a few questions for all of you like good idea or if it's even possible.
Not sure if even I create them if I will upload them or not, that depends on how they work out.

OK

What I'm planning:

they will be residential growable lots that are residential communities. I know you can't make ploppable residential lots that work for long anyway.

I'm not sure as the size of the lots at the moment probably NOT small. I'm guessing right now there will be anywhere from 12-24 homes on them. More than likely R$ and R$$. Single and two story type homes.

Anyone that wants to chime in to tell me to run away fast or give me any pointers please do.

Now for the questions that I have at this moment:

1. Is this idea possible? As in getting the lot modded to work like a real residential community. If so then how difficult? Beginner, novice, pro?

2. I assume I would start out with a blank bldg? I see blank models available in PIM-X, is there a certain blank I would need to use?

3. How big of a lot can I create in PIM-X?

4. If I create them I would at the moment keep them to myself except for one or two beta testers. So would this be something that people would like to see?

So let me know what you all think!

[rsc204 21,866]

1 hour ago, robdragon said:

1. Is this idea possible? As in getting the lot modded to work like a real residential community. If so then how difficult? Beginner, novice, pro?

It depends on your expectations here. Making a larger than usual lot, which in-game functions as a single residential complex, totally possible. Mega-lots don't always grow easily, especially really large ones.

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2. I assume I would start out with a blank bldg? I see blank models available in PIM-X, is there a certain blank I would need to use?

You could do, if using many buildings, obviously most will have to be props. But the buildings exemplar you use can reference either a blank model or be one of those buildings upon the lot. It's really up to you which works best. All blank models are the same, the PIM-X ones are actually from Maxis and reside in the base game. Remember a model is just a model, it's the exemplar that references the model that defines what it will be (building, prop etc). So it doesn't matter which you use, provided it's modded to work as intended.

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3. How big of a lot can I create in PIM-X?

I think 64x64 Technically. But since the max number of objects on a lot is around 1,200, you should know that 64x64 base textures is over 4,000 objects. Realistically, perhaps 20x20 is as large as to remain practical.

[matias93 7,535]

I would say that modularity is the way to go: use unusual lot sizes that can tesselate between them, and lot them as pieces of a puzzle (maybe with ploppable park lots to fill on the void spaces), so users could lot specific shapes to get a much bigger and still functional complex. For added realism and sustainability, you can add some CS lots with small commerce.

About the size, I agree that small and low wealth houses are the most needed ones, particularly if you can simulate smaller streets on the lots; I would say that this approach would bright the most when used to recreate big housing complexes with mid-rise apartments. I'm thinking specifically on 1960 - 70s styled housing projects with a very international design that will match adequately on almost any city, regardless of its location.

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

On 12/10/2016 at 4:16 PM, robdragon said:

So would this be something that people would like to see?

I would love to see it! This idea had occurred to me for someday in the future when I felt I might be able to try it. I was planning to create something along the lines of this:

And have a few of them that could be pieced together as puzzle pieces like @matias93 suggested.

[Prophet42 1,503]

Also, look into SimCoug's excellent residental lots.  He has created some lots that are neighborhoods.  Granted they are smaller lots, like 2x2 and 3x3, but they may give you a good idea of how to get started.

[robdragon 167]

Thanks!

That gives me some insight as what I can get away with . It may be a couple of weeks or so before I start lotting it. Real life and actually playing has gotten in the way of my lotting right now.

What Corinamarie suggested is inline as to what I was thinking as a layout.

As a modular/puzzle piece set is a good idea, but not sure as to how to mod something like that and get it to work/grow correctly. So if I go that route I probably will be picking all your brains!

Anymore ideas will be appreciated!

Thanks again!

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

5 minutes ago, robdragon said:

As a modular/puzzle piece set is a good idea, but not sure as to how to mod something like that and get it to work/grow correctly.

I'm mostly guessing since I haven't done the first thing towards creating content, but my general idea was to have various oddball sizes that could be pieced together. Like do a 5x5, 5x6, 5x7, etc so that each one would only grow one thing. Or, maybe that the "street" layout in each would match up at the edges with other ones. Or something like that. Then have a guide as to how they should be zoned adjacent to each other such that when they do grow it looks like a coherent whole.

[rsc204 21,866]

Getting them to grow is not going to be an easy task. For example, I made a FAR complex last year, three lots 3x6, 3x7 & 3x8 which when correctly built together form a single lot. Using PIM-X, making the lots was reasonably easy. This is because you can open multiple lots at once to line up things easier. For me I started by getting just the basic buildings and textures in-place. Once those were working I started adding props, starting with the edges where the lots meet. It helps to use more unusual sizes for the lots, since it lowers the chance of other lots growing where we don't want them. But even these sizes have competitors inside my plugins folder. It may be slightly easier using Low Density residental, since demand for that usually exists. But unless the sizes used are completely unique, you won't always see the complex grow without some bulldozing needed. Use of Make Historical for such lots is a must IMO.

[robdragon 167]

Great rsc204! Some great advice there. I use make historical in all my cities once I get them going. In the case of a res. community you'd more than likely want to use that option. Low density I agree with you would be the way to go in this case.

I just had a thought, is it advisable/possible to TE something like this? If so is there a way to control the traffic that enters each lot? I know you can set it for the kind like trucks and the such. Just don't know if I can control the density of the traffic.

 

 

[nos.17 5,257]

Were you thinking of something like DeVries Villas?

If you're looking for inspiration, look at lots by mattb325 here on the STEX and LEX. Also, T Wrecks has created a few of them, namely (1), (2), and (3). If you want something to grow naturally in-game, you're going to want a lot size no bigger than 6x6. You, you can create something much larger but may have trouble with it growing if your size is too odd.

Personally, I'd recommend the modular approach. I'd agree with @rsc204 that 20x20 is your realistic limit. When you start to approach around 1000 objects on a lot (the max number of objects is actually 1,280) everything gets really laggy and slows down soooooo much. Placing a prop around the upper limit may start to take 5 seconds from when you drag it to when it is displayed.

The modular approach is much easier, and if worst comes to worse, you can always remove everything from plugins except the lots you want to grow, once they grow make them historical, and then add everything back in.

It is also possible to TE growable lots. The catch, though, is that once they grow, they cannot develop further. In this case, that might be desirable for you. When you TE lots, you only select what network will go through the lot. To my knowledge, you cannot control which traffic travels through - you'd have to use a stop outside the lot to do that. Really, especially on residential lots, you shouldn't have a problem with traffic and trucks if you do things right. Don't make the TE in the lot a viable cut-through for traffic - instead, make it a U or T or something that does not go through the entire lot. The traffic from the lot will not use these internal roads: they're just for display and the actual traffic will use the road its connected to. The cars that appear only make for a nice visual effect.

  Edited January 10, 2017 by nos.17  
Added the bit about TE

[robdragon 167]

Thanks Nos.17!

At this point I would have to agree with you and pretty much everyone that a res.community really should be more like a modulated puzzle.

I always create my lots using a "Working" plugins. Nothing in it except for what I absolutely need to create the content. Then check it, then move to my "Playing" plugins. Makes for less problems with PIM-X and Ilive reader.

Since TEing the lots will not be able to control the density of the traffic then I will just opt for static timed vehicles.

I played around last night with different sizes of lots and figured out much larger than 7x7 starts to get laggy, so like it seems 6x6 and below is the optimum size. So making it module is the way to go.

Also I plan on making it low density and keeping the houses in the mid class. Probably single level and a few second levels like ranches and the such. Don't want them to grow to  a point that my idea of a community. When you get them growing to a point that you have high end housing mixed in with the lower it gets to look kinda crummy. So I will suggest to all to set historical so that don't happen.

 

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

Instead of modding a LOT that is ploppable, would it be possible to extend the zoning tool so (with some key held down) it can place a complex (an array of streets and multiple lots in one click)?

[rsc204 21,866]

15 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

Instead of modding a LOT that is ploppable, would it be possible to extend the zoning tool so (with some key held down) it can place a complex (an array of streets and multiple lots in one click)?

The zoning tool will do this, create little parcels with streets and zones. The problem is it's not really very accurate, since you can't have full control over the size of the zones. Also, the more lots you need to grow together, the harder it will be to get the complex to grow as intended. Because SC4 is pretty random about the lots it will build, there is no solution that's going to be just right for everyone.

[robdragon 167]

I for one can attest to that what rsc204 just said. I have tried that on a few occasions and just couldn't achieve what I was attempting. The odds of you getting what you or I or anybody else are trying to accomplish is pretty thin at best. I tried enough that I just manage to get very frustrated and I go and blow up a city just because I can!

 

 

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

I should have been more specific. What I had in mind was that a player could store a preset, player-designed pattern and then paste it wherever and whenever needed

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

3 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

What I had in mind was that a player could store a preset, player-designed pattern and then paste it wherever and whenever needed

I wonder if that would be possible using the techniques outlined in @nos.17's AutoHotkey as a Modding Tool guide.

[rsc204 21,866]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but if the "macro" relies on being given precise coordinates for mouse functions, that may be a stumbling block, because you don't always zone in the same part of the screen. In any case, making a few zones isn't really a lot of work, remembering the zone sizes is probably the biggest issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for automating things, but how many times are you going to want the same residential complex? Strikes me it would take more work to set this up than it's worth for such a task. Not to mention, you still can't control what would grow there.

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

3 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but if the "macro" relies on being given precise coordinates for mouse functions, that may be a stumbling block, because you don't always zone in the same part of the screen.

While I'm no expert at all on that program, I did read a wee bit in the instructions and one of the options is being able to move the mouse to relative positions. So, I'm guessing one would place the mouse pointer exactly where this would start and then let the macro take it from there. I'm assuming everything needed like streets, roads, and type of zoning would be done in the macro via their existing hotkeys in the game rather than having it grab them from the menu trees. You can do click and drag with it by a click down, move, click up sequence. Again, it's speculation on my part and prolly not worth the hassle.

[rsc204 21,866]

It does seem possible, but I just wonder if it's worthwhile really. I suppose that's more down to the individual. But as someone who has a number of such modular complexes, it never really bothered me in the slightest to make the zones. The biggest issue is remembering the right sizes. KOSC for example, always includes helpful reference images for his modular complexes, like a number of other indispensable resources, I have them all to hand for easy reference as required.

However, now you've got me wondering... what if the script could be applied to FLEX NAM Content? A script to make a DRI (Dragable Ramp) or one of the FlexTrack patterns? Still, given that the scripts need to be run away from the SC4 interface, I'm not sure how helpful that would actually prove. Since you have to switch away before running the script, which surely will alter the mouse/cursor position, making placement unpredictable.

[matias93 7,535]

Now we are talking...

In fact, as the scripting allows for both absolute and relative cursor positions, the only obstacle would be resolution changes between desktop and game, and available space in-game. They could be published as a third party script to use NAM objects faster, thus not forcing them to all users nor the NAM team to maintain them. 

They should be done separately for several screen resolutions, though, as the tile to pixels ratio would change.

[nos.17 5,257]

@CorinaMarie and @jeffryfisher ...  I suppose it could be possible, but as @rsc204 detailed, it would be very difficult to implement correctly.

17 minutes ago, matias93 said:

In fact, as the scripting allows for both absolute and relative cursor positions, the only obstacle would be resolution changes between desktop and game, and available space in-game. They could be published as a third party script to use NAM objects faster, thus not forcing them to all users nor the NAM team to maintain them. 

 

 

 

This is not a bad idea in itself, but the core issue still remains. Placement on the grid. True, the cursors can be exactly placed to get the correct sequence every time, but how long would the user have to line up their map (grid) with portions of the screen to get the script to place objects exactly on the tiles they want? At that point would it just be quicker to do it manually. Furthermore, edge scrolling would be a nightmare to implement correctly. Arrow keys might work instead, but still....

Once the user has a good system down, manually replicating is pretty easy and time unintensive. Sure scripts could be written, but does usage justify the time required to write it if it will only be used a few times per city? These are all questions that are up to the user. In my opinion, the answer is no.

Another good question would be how many users run in windowed vs. fullscreen mode? Personally, I run SC4 windowed, so starting and stopping scripts is no issue to me. I just don't know if it is too much of a hassle for people to be Alt+Tabbing back and forth.

  Edited January 23, 2017 by nos.17  
Grammar :/

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

Yeah, to me it's more interesting as a proof of concept than any real practical use other than calling your friends over and saying: Watch this! And they reply: Whoa! That's cool as <insert fav explicative>.

[rsc204 21,866]

52 minutes ago, matias93 said:

They could be published as a third party script to use NAM objects faster, thus not forcing them to all users nor the NAM team to maintain them. 

They should be done separately for several screen resolutions, though, as the tile to pixels ratio would change.

Although I'm not thinking this was your argument, I think it's highly unlikely with our current resources the NAM team would take this on. It would make more sense to use that time adding Flex-Ploppable items to the in-game menus instead.

36 minutes ago, nos.17 said:

Sure scripts could be written, but does usage justify the time required to write it if it will only be used a few times per city? These are all questions that are up to the user. In my opinion, the answer is no.

I'm 100% with you, I don't think it's a worthwhile endeavour, even if it's a interesting concept.

36 minutes ago, nos.17 said:

how many users run in windowed vs. fullscreen mode?

I personally can't stand using Windowed mode for games, it's Fullscreen all the way. But given using Windowed mode means the SC4 application Window could be literally anywhere on screen, that makes the idea of making scripts for others to use practically a non-starter I'd think. Just as having to make one for each possible resolution, it's a lot of work for very little return.

29 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

Yeah, to me it's more interesting as a proof of concept than any real practical use other than calling your friends over and saying: Watch this! And they reply: Whoa! That's cool as <insert fav explicative>.

Reminds me of a little "hack" you could do over MSN Messenger many years back that got a similar reaction... Just by connecting in a conversation, you could access certain parts of the other parties machine. I'm sure those with nefarious intent could have done nasty things, but I found it a lot of fun to type "Watch this...", then eject someone's CD-Drive remotely. Usually followed by "What the...?!"

<Note: I don't condone hacking, nor would such an exploit be remotely possible today. I'm just sharing a funny anecdote here. In fact, I wouldn't call it an exploit either, if you leave your door wide open, it's not necessary for someone to break in to your home.>

[MeMyself&I 379]

It's interesting to get a glimpse into how those wonderfully innovative ideas and techniques come into the minds of developers and modders just through a simple conversation!

[matias93 7,535]

8 minutes ago, MeMyself&I said:

It's interesting to get a glimpse into how those wonderfully innovative ideas and techniques come into the minds of developers and modders just through a simple conversation!

What a nice way to say we have the tendency to derrange every single thread we are in some kind of chat about our more insistent topics, without respect for the original theme 

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

14 minutes ago, matias93 said:

What a nice way to say we have the tendency to derrange every single thread we are in some kind of chat about our more insistent topics, without respect for the original theme 

For the most part it does still sort of apply to the original idea inasmuch as the macros could possibly be used to implement the zoning for the odd sized residential zones.

I was tempted to reply to @MeMyself&I how our convo in the moisture thread prompted me to make that new mod. (Essentially once you made me understand it had a practical use I got re-motivated.) But, I felt that might derail this topic even further.

[rsc204 21,866]

4 hours ago, matias93 said:

What a nice way to say we have the tendency to derrange every single thread we are in some kind of chat about our more insistent topics, without respect for the original theme 

You're probably right, but I like the way @MeMyself&I put it better

4 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

...how our convo in the moisture thread prompted me to make that new mod...

I think that's a great point really. Having the freedom to go off on a tangent encourages creative thinking. Most of the things I started came from such a conversation. I'm great at finding solutions, but far less good at random inspiration. Within reason, I think such talk should be encouraged. After all, if we really drift too far off course, we can always split the thread if needed.

[matias93 7,535]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

After all, if we really drift too far off course, we can always split the thread if needed.

This one we should dice it instead, I can see like four or five different themes... 

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

My inspiration for ploppable (or pastable) complexes was a YouTube video of someone building a high-population city on a large, perfectly flat section. He tediously drew and zoned cookie-cutter neighborhoods repeated over a hundred times. Maybe his was an uncommon use-case, but he could have saved a lot of effort if he'd had each of his squares (res, com, dirty and HT) pre-loaded for pasting (or if he could have drawn one and then copy-pasted dozens of times).

Mmmm... Imagine if we could select-copy-paste... and then share clipboard items. What could that do for constructing and sharing puzzle-piece complexes such as RHW interchanges?

[CorinaMarie 29,895]

2 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

What could that do for constructing and sharing puzzle-piece complexes such as RHW interchanges?

If peeps would agree on a specific windowed resolution and specific zoom level then the AutoHotKey thinger could prolly be scripted and shared. One would write it so all the macro mouse moves use the relative direction command from a specified starting place. For example, end user would place mouse over the lower left tile where the interchange is to be made and then invoke the macro.

I'm silly enough to believe this could be made useful and sharable.