Paid mods? Or paid extra features?

[Darf 1,439]

50 minutes ago, RandyE said:

I actually did send my resume to Electronic Arts many years ago, dude.  But I made my presentation with a Macintosh computer, not exactly indicative of potential high market shares.   As far as I can tell, the 11 year-olds may be the primary demographic downloading the mods, but not so much the majority of discussion or creation thereof.

You are in the cities skylines forum, what has EA anything to do with all of the above? 

1 hour ago, RandyE said:

Thank-you for upholding the good spirit and good sense of a non-monetary, non-political, cybernetic culture that I have known, participated in, and experienced over several decades,  and its a culture that is extremely valuable in its human resources and values.  Polluting this culture with financial and/or political interests would seem to me to be too over the top destructive of one of the last remaining free social communication formats of rational people in which people can share information, ideas, expression without fear of the money-grubbing and political psychopaths in this unfortunately ethically impoverished world.   

With all the above said, if I do happen to come along a significant amount of investment capital at this point I would surely be interested in reaching out to the modders of SC4 to develop a commercial replacement  --it would be an awesome project.  Bottom line is SC4 is a masterpiece of electronic art, and that's why most of us are here.

As for the defensive and over-sensitive modders, instead of wasting time telling me to delete my free account on a free social media site, why don't you just send your resume to Electronic Arts delineating your skills and qualifications.

 

 

 

Again, EA, they didn't even develop SC4 and yes, you are still in the Cities: Skylines forum and no this isn't a social meda site.

The amount of ignorance in this thread is unbelievable people! Just close the thread already. Like Mr. Maison said in the other thread, just be happy for fellow modders when such an oppurtunity arises and don't get all defensive when you have to dish out a couple of bucks for support, when people want to take it a step further. It might keep them producing content for a longer period, give them some goals and a sense of appreciation. I'd rather dish out a few bucks for support, than lose key modders entirely. If you don't share that opinion then I don't know what's wrong with you.

 

[donoteat 478]

Somehow in the train simulator community, community-made payware mods have been a thing, with a minimum of consternation and drama, for ~15 years now.

I think so long as everyone works and deals with each other in good faith, has a clear contract and knows how they're sharing work and revenue, and aren't charging dumb prices or making sub-par mods, it'll work out.

[OwiHH 240]

2 hours ago, RandyE said:

Thank-you for upholding the good spirit and good sense of a non-monetary, non-political, cybernetic culture that I have known, participated in, and experienced over several decades,  and its a culture that is extremely valuable in its human resources and values.  Polluting this culture with financial and/or political interests would seem to me to be too over the top destructive of one of the last remaining free social communication formats of rational people in which people can share information, ideas, expression without fear of the money-grubbing and political psychopaths in this unfortunately ethically impoverished world.   

Nice, well spoken!

[rsc204 21,866]

38 minutes ago, Darf said:

don't get all defensive when you have to dish out a couple of bucks for support, when people want to take it a step further. It might keep them producing content for a longer period, give them some goals and a sense of appreciation. I'd rather dish out a few bucks for support, than lose key modders entirely

Isn't that the crux of the issue though. Are modders really saying if I don't make some cash, I'm not really into it? That has the slight whiff of blackmail to me, payment is not the only motivation or reward in life. As a modder, I never even considered that I should be paid for what I do. The very places that enabled me to learn and develop, not to mention, pay the costs of hosting/downloading my content, are not something I consider profiting from. In reality these sites are paid for by a small minority of players, voluntarily. It's true that nothing in this world is free.

As a creator, I don't think for one minute that my work is worthless, even if I don't ask for money. Most of what I create is for me, not for others, purely selfish motivations, at least sort of. But, I try to release as much work as I can, even adding support for things I would never use along the way. If you paid me for this work, it wouldn't change what I'm creating, nor what I release. Sure money is always nice, but if I wanted to be a corporate drone making models of things I had no passion for all day long, there are plenty of positions. All with terrible pay and conditions, the videogame industry is a terrible place to work for most.

7 hours ago, Tarkus said:

every time someone has offered to pay the NAM Team to come up with a feature, we've advised that they instead donate the money to one or more of the sites that are responsible for keeping the community alive

Couldn't agree more with this philosophy, were I offered a donation, I too would probably ask people to pass it to where it really deserves to go. There is my problem with this idea of charging. If Steam notice that modders are getting paid, they'll muscle their way in or shut it down. Given that Skylines is so inter-twined with the Workshop, that's likely to remain the place with all the exposure. As a result, any attempts to monetise it, will ultimately end up in players paying to play games with mods. Most of the money will not end up going where it was really intended by the ideals outlined here in the process. As such, whilst the idea of being able to reward a creator sits with me just fine. I feel the opposite, should that come about at the expense of changing modding from something that's free for all, into a business in the process. This could apply to any game, really, modding is something I'd prefer to see remain free. I mean, plenty of people give their time freely, either for the love of it or because they just want to make the world a better place. If Steam is the hard business side, community sites are more like digital social clubs paid for and ran by members.

In reality, ST provides what it does for the love of the game and furthering it's potential. But Steam will never be that place, it's a corporate website that's dedicated to monetising gaming, two polar opposites really. But could you monetise mods here or on another free community site? Considering such sites have to bear the costs of enabling such transactions (no small sums either), again if you are charging, something much bigger needs to change here. Since we're discussing this on ST and not Steam's forums, it only seems relevant to make comparisons with SC4, the very community that enabled this site to exist.

So the question is really, do you want Steam to make a huge cut so that creators can make a buck? Or, would it be acceptable if a community site profited from charging, to cover their costs? Let's say though that ST simply didn't think the idea fit's with their philosophy for example. In such circumstances, are you going to start your own site so to enable this new way of thinking? It's also worth asking if the EULA even allows you to do this, Paradox might not be EA, but all publishers have lawyers that write the agreements. Very few genuinely give players the right to monetise something made using the product for yourself.

Modding has flourished on PCs, precisely because of the dedication and good will of those involved. All of us here today are from hugely different walks of life, but the community, our shared-love of city-building, brings us together. Let's be honest, if you have a partner or friends, I bet you don't excitedly tell them about all the latest developments or creations? I mean, I do, or I try, but no-one really get's it. Sure, Steam can foster a community too, even if it is a business. But, I don't think that community will ever be as good as the ones we've fostered for SC4. I mean, this thread is here on ST, that says a lot doesn't it? That's the bigger picture here, because charging simply changes the state of play.

1 hour ago, donoteat said:

Somehow in the train simulator community, community-made payware mods have been a thing, with a minimum of consternation and drama, for ~15 years now

Yes, but what's good for the goose, isn't always good for the gander. I agree it can work, I don't have a problem with modders making cash. But I do have a problem with Steam or another corporate entity taking everyone's work and profiting from it. If Steam wanted a 70% cut of work I made, I simply wouldn't release any of it out of principle.

 

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

I do what I do because I love doing it and give back to the community that has helped me grow. I would never charge for my work. I have donated here in the past and plan to do so in the near future. I am happy to see that this site still exists 10 years later after RL took over for me. The same standards that existed then still stand today. It is what has made this site what it is after all this time. I agree with rcs204 and others. This could blow up in our faces if we allowed this. Split the community that ive come to love so much. This is home away from home and I would hate to see it go.

[hitzu 139]

On 27.08.2016 at 0:17 AM, boformer said:

What do you think?

Can you guarantee that your mod will be avaliable, usable and not broken as long as the game is supported by the publisher?

[rsc204 21,866]

29 minutes ago, hitzu said:

Can you guarantee that your mod will be avaliable, usable and not broken as long as the game is supported by the publisher?

Realistically, would the publisher of the game make the same guarantees for their content? This whole issue will blow over once CO stop updating the game, which is bound to happen eventually. If it wasn't for Steam forcing users to have the latest version installed, such incompatibilities would never be an on-going misery in the first place. This is the single reason why I stopped playing Skylines. I couldn't take another borked save file after hundreds of hours of work.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

I am glad I never got into playing skylines sounds like more of a head ache than its worth. Ill stay with SC4

[bsquiklehausen 190]

I am personally against paid mods and assets as well. I completely understand that there's time and effort into creating mods, but without official ties to Colossal Order, there's no guarantee that the next game patch won't permanently break a mod, or duplicate its functionality. Without that guarantee, there's far too little safety for unofficial mods to be worth money.

[MushyMushy 3,618]

I own the game (but have yet to install it), but I thought I'd chime in. I don't think that making individual mods a paid thing is a good idea. Most people probably aren't willing to pay for mods, especially when they may very well get broken by a patch. I don't think SC4's modding community would still be alive like it is if people were charging for everything. This aside, I do think that things that aren't required of individual users like donations or crowdfunding for big projects are fine. I am surprised that more people don't donate to modders though (knowing that a lot of C:S modders seem to have Patreon or something like that), because I know donations aren't a rarity in the gaming community. Maybe it's because different genres seem to attract a different general player base.

---

I know this is about SC4 and not C:S, but I really couldn't look at this without saying something...

16 hours ago, RandyE said:

... a few amateur hobby hackers with delusions of grandeur.  ...

13 hours ago, RandyE said:

What a bunch of losers who even vaguely think their work on SC4 mods are worth anything in real money.  Go away please and never  come back. 

If we content creators are such scummy losers, I sincerely hope you don't use any mods at all in your precious game. Before you criticize a such a large group of people, I'd love to see you make a quality mod or a BAT or two first. I'm not saying I think SC4 modders should charge money at all, but you could approach that debate with more tact and avoid calling a swath of people names... more than once.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

If I have read and understood everything right this  discussion is about C.S. Modders/content creators... I dont know who owns or created the game as I only heard about it when I came back to S.T. However it seems to me that getting paid for custom content that could get broke by some kind of patch or update would not be worth paying for. I would not pay for it myself.  And it seems to me that this discussion is on S.T. Which has no interest in payment for mods or other custom content. 

 

I myself being a custom content creator fully understand the time and the effort that goes into creating a custom content.  However greatest reward is the down loads it gets. It also tells me what is popular and what is not. Now that being said Maxis/EA owns the game and the rights for SC4... And yes I know this is C.S...  if steam wants to allow this kind of thing then that is up to steam.  However I dont believe it should be done here on a community site where it's been the standard for more than a decade. It could do more damage than its worth. Regardless of whether or not a modd is worth money. 

 

And yes name calling is not appropriate. It solves no issues at all and causes more fire. And as such it seems to be getting out of hand. 

 

It seems to me that even making modds for a game that is constantly being patched rendering a mod useless is not the best idea and peeps would loos interest if they had to pay for a mod that potentially would no longer work with the next upgrade. I know that I would not pay for it. 

 

If you want to do that on steam then from what others have mentioned here I would advise caution. Money for these companies is the bottom line. You may loose in the end rather than gain. If you think they are going to allow you to make money using their servers and not require a cut of your profits then you are sadly mistaken.  

Just exercise caution should you venture into that...

 

 

[catty-cb 4,412]

12 hours ago, MushyMushy said:

I own the game (but have yet to install it), but I thought I'd chime in. I don't think that making individual mods a paid thing is a good idea. Most people probably aren't willing to pay for mods, especially when they may very well get broken by a patch. ..

It may be that's one of the reasons they are doing a "Closed Modding Beta"

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/closed-modding-beta-application-info.940858/

[Judazzz 1,936]

The thing is though, as soon as officially sanctioned paid community content becomes a reality, they are basically part of the base game - ie. on the same standing as After Dark or Snowfall - so there has to be a 100% guarantee stuff remains working flawlessly for everyone: it's no longer a nice-to-have (which the closed modding beta basically is - it offers a platform to test out your stuff pre-release, but it's no-strings-attached), but an absolute necessity, as the content has become an official part of the game. For assets that may not be as much of a problem (can't think of an example of an asset no longer working after an update - the one thing was the additional illumination map that had to be included in assets to make them look pretty After Dark - they kept working, night lights or not, though), but for mods it actually is: it raises several questions, the most urgent of all probably being where the responsibility of guaranteed compatibility lies (if a wildly popular Workshop mod has been working fine and conflict-free for ages, and an update causes issues between that Workshop mod and one that has been officially 'absorbed' by the game, who is responsible?)

[OwiHH 240]

16 hours ago, Mary Maurine Mayo said:

I am glad I never got into playing skylines sounds like more of a head ache than its worth. Ill stay with SC4

If you played it - you will love it - the 3d scenery and beautifull mods makes it awsome. I played alot SC4 but i dont want this anymore since CS is sooo beautifull with the right mods.

I think changes / broken mods are becoming more less and less a problem. Also mooders are pretty good keeping the big importand mods up to date.

With the new generation of gamedeploying it becomes a daily factor for not having my game ready when i want to play it / sadly but mostly if i want to play after work i need to wait some minutes due patching ... that how it is .. and it is the same with CS just wait a bit and everything is fine again  

[rsc204 21,866]

13 minutes ago, OwiHH said:

sadly but mostly if i want to play after work i need to wait some minutes due patching ... that how it is

Yeah this part... for 20+ years of gaming  it didn't have to be this way. I'm sorry, but that part really turns me off. It's a game for crying out loud! Steam aren't the worst offenders here either, I've had to wait 30m + to play on my Xbox 360 (piece of trash MS hardware that it is). First the OS needed an update, then we reboot, then the game needs an update, both from the worlds slowest servers... meh LET ME PLAY MY GAME!!!

I think the option to patch things on the fly means the games we get in reality aren't finished. I am NOT your beta tester CO, I paid full retail, however reasonable that may have been. I'm sorry, but if you can't code the game by now so that updates don't break mods, I know you didn't code it properly in the first place. Unity is almost certainly in part to blame here too.

Anyway before I get into an off-topic rant, I'll shut up.

[Darf 1,439]

3 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

Yeah this part... for 20+ years of gaming  it didn't have to be this way. I'm sorry, but that part really turns me off. It's a game for crying out loud! Steam aren't the worst offenders here either, I've had to wait 30m + to play on my Xbox 360 (piece of trash MS hardware that it is). First the OS needed an update, then we reboot, then the game needs an update, both from the worlds slowest servers... meh LET ME PLAY MY GAME!!!

I think the option to patch things on the fly means the games we get in reality aren't finished. I am NOT your beta tester CO, I paid full retail, however reasonable that may have been. I'm sorry, but if you can't code the game by now so that updates don't break mods, I know you didn't code it properly in the first place. Unity is almost certainly in part to blame here too.

Anyway before I get into an off-topic rant, I'll shut up.

This is not CO updating their game. Patches have been very stable the last few months, the modding beta has also resulted in non or no broken mods. It's just when you have 1000s of mods and assets and some people update their content it updates those whenever you boot up steam. IMO a lot better than keeping SC4 updated.

[rsc204 21,866]

7 minutes ago, Darf said:

This is not CO updating their game. Patches have been very stable the last few months, the modding beta has also resulted in non or no broken mods. It's just when you have 1000s of mods and assets and some people update their content it updates those whenever you boot up steam. IMO a lot better than keeping SC4 updated.

Well I disagree there. It's less work, for sure, but updates don't get to control what happens. So no broken or incompatible content finds it's way into my plugins folder without my own doing. The biggest problem with updates, be it in gaming, software, operating systems or even phones, is that all are designed to take user control away from you. Which would be great if all these things actually worked as intended. The problem is they do not, but that's your problem as an end user. Well if that's what you think of your customers... I'll go elsewhere thanks.

[Darf 1,439]

15 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

Well I disagree there. It's less work, for sure, but updates don't get to control what happens. So no broken or incompatible content finds it's way into my plugins folder without my own doing. The biggest problem with updates, be it in gaming, software, operating systems or even phones, is that all are designed to take user control away from you. Which would be great if all these things actually worked as intended. The problem is they do not, but that's your problem as an end user. Well if that's what you think of your customers... I'll go elsewhere thanks.

It's by far a lot user friendlier than updating SC4 with mods. When a mod author does an update for SC4 that causes instabilities it's the same thing. You don't know what's incompatible when you install it either so with C:S you know it's atleast tested before an upcoming update comes out and it's just a click of a button when you want to deinstall it. I've spend far more time testing stuff on SC4 what works, what dependencies it has etc.

So, what doesn't work according to you?

[mutton noir 170]

The internet has been around for 20 years. The founding philosophy was free access to information. The concept of "free stuff"- access to intellectual property/sharing of knowledge/written word/music/video that exists in the trillions  is so firmly established that to begin any shift of the culture would be like spitting in the wind. With almost 100000 Cities Skylines assets/mods/custom maps available in the Steam Workshop it is a bit late to think about payment. The majority of folks who produce and choose to share their work- game assets/video/music/blogs/art work/photography on the web believe in the democracy of the internet. The vitual world is a very different world from the capitalist real world we experience.

[Judazzz 1,936]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

I think the option to patch things on the fly means the games we get in reality aren't finished. I am NOT your beta tester CO, I paid full retail, however reasonable that may have been. I'm sorry, but if you can't code the game by now so that updates don't break mods, I know you didn't code it properly in the first place. Unity is almost certainly in part to blame here too.

No offense, but that is nonsense. Modding - by definition - is a risk that the player takes and accepts. If you want to mod your game, you accept those risks: it's like getting pissed off at Apple because their update broke your jailbroken iPhone (I'm aware jailbreaking is frowned upon whereas modding is officially supported, yet the underlying logic remains firmly in place - adding non-official code is always done at your own risk). If you don't want those risks, stay away from mods.
CO's task is to keep the base game functioning, not to support 3rd party code additions that sometimes are programmed very cleanly, and sometimes sloppy as hell. In anything, the fact that CO has started a closed modding beta program indicates that they actually go one step further compared to most game developers.

Having said that, despite the modding beta imo. CO could and should do more to support the modding community and make their lives easier (like proper, complete API documentation and comprehensive tutorials and how-to's), and with that the lives of the players using those mods, but blaming CO for their official updates breaking mods (and in extension accusing CO of being incapable of proper coding) quite frankly is ignorant and preposterous - in my humble opinion....

[boformer 3,169]

16 minutes ago, mutton noir said:

With almost 100000 Cities Skylines assets/mods/custom maps available in the Steam Workshop it is a bit late to think about payment. The majority of folks who produce and choose to share their work- game assets/video/music/blogs/art work/photography on the web believe in the democracy of the internet. The vitual world is a very different world from the capitalist real world we experience.

I partially agree with You. I'm developing mods in my free time and I'm having a lot of fun. That's about 30% of the time.

Providing support/bugfixes is not so fun, and there are many impatient/angry people which are making it worse. That's 70% of the time. I guess that's something I would prioritize a lot more if I was paid.

You are right that the are thousands of workshop items, but only a few of them are (heavy) mods. There are only a few mod developers, and the current mods are just scratching the surface of the modding capabilities.

If I had a few months to work on mods only, I could do so many things that were requested since the release. Things like larger growables, water traffic, modular roads, realistic farms or a total economic overhaul.

But someone has to pay my bills...

[OwiHH 240]

Nono guys comeone- CS was released with workshop steam provides and everyone knowed infront yes it will have modssupport and workshop.

So like rsc said : but if you can't code the game by now so that updates don't break mods, I know you didn't code it properly in the first place. Unity is almost certainly in part to blame here too.

Thats how it is and even if you dont have mods installed i run into so much problems with my windows and support drivers for hardware because every $%&^!in company patches his drivers or  want to that i have to reinstall my whole system after latest 2 years because of all this patching and little patch here, there and new software pieces while updating just my drivers for graphiccard because of to much service!

Little exemple on my raedon - i made new windowns like a month ago installed all i needed and it worked.

Week later my taskbar reminds me of a update for a new driver for my graphiccard. Right, if it is released why not - lets updated it, reboot - bähmm new drivers cant be installed - desktop resets to worse resolution, i had to reroll every thing reinstall the drivers to have it working again.

So it is not mods and assests only.

Its a old but true wise hint - Dont thouch a running system - today even more then in the past.

Everyone want to give you their service and most of them over service it - thats how i see it. For users with no knowledge it must be horrobile having a PC today because if you just install a mousedriver you get / free cloud , webspace, solcial chatbars, gamingsoftware, shopes and 3 washing machines with it.

Well off-topic again but i think we discussed it to the point that donations or crowdfunding is the best anyway ;-)

[rsc204 21,866]

1 hour ago, Darf said:

So, what doesn't work according to you?

I don't like not having control over what updates and what doesn't. I never said SC4 was easy, but I get by just fine. It helps if you really understand a lot of the inner workings though.

53 minutes ago, Judazzz said:

No offense, but that is nonsense. Modding - by definition - is a risk that the player takes and accepts.

Perhaps, but if your game is widely advertised as being Mod Friendly, how do you end up breaking things with every update? I mean, have they just not decided how things will work in the code? Surely most of the modules don't get overhauled in every update? If you can't get a platform in place that isn't constantly evolving, then it obviously wasn't finished, was it?

But this isn't the problem at all, the problem is everything updates, whether you want it to or not. So instead of finishing what I'm doing then moving on after updating on my terms. I'm left up a creek without a paddle. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why everyone is so ready to accept this? Surely it's not necessary to force me to patch my game automatically. Why can't I just install it when I'm ready, don't I own the product I bought? Can't I use it how I want to, not how the developers/Steam think is best for me?

 

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

4 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

I don't like not having control over what updates and what doesn't. I never said SC4 was easy, but I get by just fine. It helps if you really understand a lot of the inner workings though.

Perhaps, but if your game is widely advertised as being Mod Friendly, how do you end up breaking things with every update? I mean, have they just not decided how things will work in the code? Surely most of the modules don't get overhauled in every update? If you can't get a platform in place that isn't constantly evolving, then it obviously wasn't finished, was it?

But this isn't the problem at all, the problem is everything updates, whether you want it to or not. So instead of finishing what I'm doing then moving on after updating on my terms. I'm left up a creek without a paddle. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why everyone is so ready to accept this? Surely it's not necessary to force me to patch my game automatically. Why can't I just install it when I'm ready, don't I own the product I bought? Can't I use it how I want to, not how the developers/Steam think is best for me?

 

I agree with you there. 

[boformer 3,169]

4 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

 

 

But this isn't the problem at all, the problem is everything updates, whether you want it to or not. So instead of finishing what I'm doing then moving on after updating on my terms. I'm left up a creek without a paddle. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why everyone is so ready to accept this? Surely it's not necessary to force me to patch my game automatically. Why can't I just install it when I'm ready, don't I own the product I bought? Can't I use it how I want to, not how the developers/Steam think is best for me?

 

it would be great if there was a way to block updates, but that comes with new problems.

For example, you would need a versioning system for the workshop that installs the right version of a mod depending on the game version.

You also can't load savegames from a newer version of the game.

It is more complex than you think, and the cloud/update system also has advantages. Many advantages, especially if you are a mod user.

Also, why is a game update once in 3 months such a big problem?

[Cyclone Boom 17,031]

Just a quick reminder:

Even with differing opinions, let's remember to continue discussing this subject in a calm and civil manner.

Thanks all.

[Judazzz 1,936]

11 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

Perhaps, but if your game is widely advertised as being Mod Friendly, how do you end up breaking things with every update? I mean, have they just not decided how things will work in the code? Surely most of the modules don't get overhauled in every update? If you can't get a platform in place that isn't constantly evolving, then it obviously wasn't finished, was it?

But this isn't the problem at all, the problem is everything updates, whether you want it to or not. So instead of finishing what I'm doing then moving on after updating on my terms. I'm left up a creek without a paddle. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why everyone is so ready to accept this? Surely it's not necessary to force me to patch my game automatically. Why can't I just install it when I'm ready, don't I own the product I bought? Can't I use it how I want to, not how the developers/Steam think is best for me?

 

The game is as advertised: it is mod-friendly (how much easier than one click on a website do you want it to be?)
If I interpret your words correctly, it sounds like your main gripe with the whole Workshop integration is actually Steam's update policy, which basically shoves updates down your throat whether you want it or not (I can agree with that being annoying and needlessly control-freakish). But keep in mind that CO can't do anything about that, it's simply the way Steam works. If anything, the whole modding beta was - at least in part - conceived to take the edge off that policy by allowing the creators of the most popular and used mods to make sure their mods are compatible as soon as the next expansion hits the shelves. But issues remain a possibility, mods can clash (even if they play nice with the updated game itself), and that is something CO can't do much about, if anything at all - they don't control the code modders write, nor are in a position to tell modders to clean up their act or else, so what they're attempting is probably the best that is possible under the current circumstances.

Oh, one more thing: you didn't make any mention of it, but if my previous comment came across as unnecessarily hostile or strong-worded, then I apologize for that because that wasn't my intention...

[Darf 1,439]

26 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

I don't like not having control over what updates and what doesn't. I never said SC4 was easy, but I get by just fine. It helps if you really understand a lot of the inner workings though.

Perhaps, but if your game is widely advertised as being Mod Friendly, how do you end up breaking things with every update? I mean, have they just not decided how things will work in the code? Surely most of the modules don't get overhauled in every update? If you can't get a platform in place that isn't constantly evolving, then it obviously wasn't finished, was it?

But this isn't the problem at all, the problem is everything updates, whether you want it to or not. So instead of finishing what I'm doing then moving on after updating on my terms. I'm left up a creek without a paddle. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why everyone is so ready to accept this? Surely it's not necessary to force me to patch my game automatically. Why can't I just install it when I'm ready, don't I own the product I bought? Can't I use it how I want to, not how the developers/Steam think is best for me?

 

Who says it breaks things every update? To me it sounds you are just making a hurdle for yourself based inaccurate information. And is not better to have a mod friendly game, than needing to hack everything in?

[MushyMushy 3,618]

I think what rsc is getting at isn't that updates themselves are problems, it's the fact that the updates break mods when it seems like they shouldn't. I'm not really trying to rag on the game... I think it's a good game, but I don't understand why updates seem to break mods that have nothing to do with the part of the game that was updated. I play several games on Steam that have Workshop functionality, and none of them break their mods (which I usually have 100-200 of) with every update. Sometimes a mod or two might get broken or they might change the values of something so modders must adjust their stats, but it's not as bad. I would argue that a game where mods are broken frequently is not fully mod friendly. I'm certainly not saying that the game is not good for mods though.

[Roadman20 601]

Outside of the DLCs, the small, regular patch updates rarely affect the major mods.  I've never seen any prop or asset become incompatible due to an update, which is 95% of the Steam Workshop library for C:S.  

Sure, when the update drops, it's annoying that you can't play the game, but the downtime has dropped to less than 24 hours.  I can play something else in the meantime, but I know things will sort themselves out.  I know it was bad when After Dark dropped and modders were working the weekend to get things fixed.  Now with the close modding beta and everyone knowing when the DLC comes out, the transition is relatively smooth.  The majority of the core, must-have mods I know are under the umbrella of BloodyPenguin, and he's pretty active on getting them right when the update drops.