Brexit

[Jasoncw 11,949]

4 minutes ago, michae95l said:

The leave vote being insane?

The UK decided to do itself harm for no tangible benefits.

The victory is symbolic (and based on misguided nationalism) but the damage will be real.

[FlyHigh 181]

I suppose we'll all be here to collect the pieces.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

I would also like to add that Britain voting to leave the EU is an event of this millennium, in the developed world, which ranks up there with 9/11 and the 2008/2009 financial crisis.

Though the 2008/2009 financial crisis, and its ongoing ramifications, is magnitudes greater than 9/11 and Brexit combined. i.e.: zero-interest, government debt explosion, student loan bubble, QE life support, ZIRP, NIRP, bailing out everything under the sun with consumerism and investing cranked up to 11. The financial crisis spawned or indirectly contributed to some crazy events: the European financial crisis, the 2011 USA debt ceiling debacle, the Arab Spring, China going literally full-on SC4 and building like crazy!

Still yesterday's Brexit vote was quite the historical event.

[Odainsaker 2,137]

David Gergen's article "'Brexit':  A Very British Fiasco" on CNN concluded with a line almost verbatim with what I have been thinking since this morning:

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It's not often that one decision can cripple your own economy, damage global investor confidence, imperil one of the most successful alliances in modern history, foster the rise of ultra-nationalists, precipitate the possible breakup of your own country, deeply divide your own party and cause a great schism between voters of every ideological stripe, but this is one of them.

 

Well done, David Cameron.

Well done, indeed!

More surreally, Christiane Amanpour had an unnerving interview with UKIP's Ray Finch, British Member of the European Parliament, in the early hours after the results came in:  "What's Next for the United Kingdom."  As freaky as it is to see that right-wing nutters in the UK sound like right-wing nutters in the U.S., and that Donald Trump has only been in Scotland for a few hours and already the British Isles are imploding, what tripped me out was that the interview looked remarkably like this talking head scene from the film "Starship Troopers."  Of all the tangential references out of left field, but my jaw dropped as I watched it!  Nope, you can't argue with crazy, especially when crazy is following the Hollywood script of a parody about fascist xenophobia.  It was even stupider for Cameron and the Conservatives to have tried shoring up their base by dallying with the fringe and unleashing their own Trumps in a misbegotten political ploy that has spectacularly backfired.

 

[Cool_Z 1,547]

L'odieux connard (a french blogger and writer, his "name" translates as "the despicable moron" posted this in case some english people would want to flee from england :

[FlyHigh 181]

We are all a but numb I think. Quite the uncertain time...

[nos.17 5,255]

According to Nigel Farage:

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We've done it not just for ourselves, but for the whole of Europe. I hope this victory brings down this vile project and leads us to a Europe of sovereign nation states trading together, being friends together, cooperating together, and lets get rid of the flag, the anthem, Brussels, and all that has gone wrong.

1

As an outsider looking in, can someone please tell me how what he described is not like the EU? Because to me (based on my limited knowledge), it sounds like the man wants to form something basically like the EU, but not based in Brussels, and has an invisible flag and a silent anthem.

[FlyHigh 181]

17 minutes ago, nos.17 said:

According to Nigel Farage:

As an outsider looking in, can someone please tell me how what he described is not like the EU? Because to me (based on my limited knowledge), it sounds like the man wants to form something basically like the EU, but not based in Brussels, and has an invisible flag and a silent anthem.

I think I speak for my fellow citizens when saying that there is a feeling that the EU has been too regulatory in some sectors while leaving some others to self regulate. There is a feeling that EU regulations have hurt key sectors of the national economy as to benefit other member states (agricultural, fishing and tax policies are usually pointed).
Most of us are not clear about the workings of the EU, how are the policies brought forward, who votes, who has the final word, how does the parliament, the council of europe, the eurogroup play together. There is also the fact that european decisions need to be ratified by national parliaments in some countries where others are forced to implement them automatically. For most of us Brussels is an opaque body of official that do not represent the european values and have no strategy for the Union. Farage has, as many other party leaders all over europe, taken advantage of this ill feeling and coupled with miss information and shady numbers convinced brits they would be better of out of the EU. My personal opinion atm is that this is a second wake up call to Brussels, that it needs to reform and that european cooperation needs to be though as a goal. We don't need more europe, we need a better europe.

[Delta 88 262]

A very interesting alternate point of view:

 

[CorinaMarie 29,892]

Oopsie?

‘Made a Mistake’: Watch British Pol Stunningly Admit the #Leave Promises Now Won’t Happen

[Dreadnought 8,231]

I understood Donald Trump would destroy the US economy -- which, in turn, would cripple the rest of the world.

I never expected the Brits would rush in and throw themselves under the bus way ahead of the November debacle.

It would also appear the older people voted for their nostalgic / xenophobic view of England and may well have succeeded in destroying the Act Of Union into the bargain. 

Scotland is now in a big hurry to leave, as is Northern Ireland.  What's stopping the Welsh ?  And will the Commonwealth members see any point in being symbolically tied to a country that can no longer trade to advantage with Europe?

Will a seriously reduced "England" be able to find the budget to support her nuclear arm ?  (Among many other things England may have to give up if her Union partners desert her.)  Nato is on the verge of loosing a valuable member in a world that grows more dangerous by the day,.

Her Majesty must be horrified to watch while Her ministers run the ship of state onto the rocks !!  

[_Michael 2,681]

4 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

Scotland is now in a big hurry to leave, as is Northern Ireland.  What's stopping the Welsh ?  And will the Commonwealth members see any point in being symbolically tied to a country that can no longer trade to advantage with Europe?

Interesting point. Wales won't leave the UK, simply due to the fact that they voted to leave. Scotland only want to leave the UK union , because the first minister says that they will be "dragged out of the EU against their will".

However, it is only 2 years since the last SCT independence referendum, and the economic case for independence has only worsened. 

Northern Island, I doubt will become an independent nation, but joining the RoI is not out of the question. 

[rsc204 21,866]

1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

Oopsie?

Well here's the crux of the problem. Every major party in UK politics was on the side of remaining. Those in the Leave campaign, some Elected Conservative MPs aside have no power whatsoever, regardless of the outcome of the vote. So only those, who after the new prime minister and cabinet are decided, will have any control over anything. So right at this moment and logically before the vote took place, no one could possibly make any promises. For starters, we couldn't know who would be in power at the point those promises would be met.

26 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

It would also appear the older people voted for their nostalgic / xenophobic view of England and may well have succeeded in destroying the Act Of Union into the bargain. 

Well, I wouldn't take that information as gospel. There seems to be some misinformation spreading, some sources are saying it was the younger people that were most in favour of leaving. I suppose it comes down to which source you can trust, best of luck with that .

Personally, I've seen the UK change in ways that make me worry about returning there. Most of my friends are continually worse and worse off. They never get pay rises, many took pay cuts. Some are stuck on 0 hours contracts, young people have pretty much no chance of owning a house. Basically, I think the young wanted change, even if they don't really understand how the EU is not really the cause of many of their problems.

26 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

Scotland is now in a big hurry to leave, as is Northern Ireland.  What's stopping the Welsh ?  And will the Commonwealth members see any point in being symbolically tied to a country that can no longer trade to advantage with Europe?

Funny how Scotland now thinks it should have another referendum so soon after the first "Once in a generation" one? It was pretty much obvious the moment the first one was over, they wanted to keep voting until they got the "right" answer. Remember the EU saying that Scotland couldn't necessarily join the EU or ERM around then? I do, the idea that they can just decide to do this is nonsensical. They are just trying to find another excuse to try again. Who's to say they will get this new referendum, I think it very unlikely, since Westminster gets to decide if it happens or not. Given we're in the middle of retreating from Europe, a process that obviously will take many years, it would be madness to start doing this. Referendums all around the UK to see if people agree with the first referendum or want to go their own way. I put it to you, it simply won't happen. The Welsh, well, far as I can tell, they wanted to leave anyway. Even so, they really don't have the power to decide such things, the Welsh Assembly has nothing like the power of the Scottish equivalent, who also don't have this power.

As for NI, we all know the history of that conflict during the last century, but if the people of NI overwhelmingly wanted to be Irish and not in the UK, I don't think we'd stop them. However, I think the Irish have always been very split on the issue, religious lines muddle this even further. But if Brexit proves anything, you only need to pip the other side of the argument, so who knows. However, given the history of violence in the past, I know many in NI just want peace, fighting over leaving the UK may threaten that unless it's pretty much unanimous.

26 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

Nato is on the verge of loosing a valuable member in a world that grows more dangerous by the day,.

Really, why would we leave Nato? I can only imagine the UK would seek to strengthen it's ties with the US and commonwealth now.

Beware the media folks, so much of the issues have been ignored and blatant lies told everywhere. For starters, until after the vote went against remaining, apparently there was no strategy or plan for Brexit. It's been there all along, it was just in the interest of the media to deny it's existence. We are being controlled, this vote was a vote against that system of control. Will everything go swimmingly or easy from here on out, probably not. But will the sky fall in, not likely either.

 

[LexusInfernus 908]

12 hours ago, hbn said:

I voted remain but I have to say @LexusInfernus that if the EU adopted that attitude it would gain support from populists who would spin it into the idea that the EU will try to control every aspect of your life and punish you for stepping out of line, contrary to the free and open Europe that the EU wants to advertise. You'd also want to be on the best of terms with your neighbours, not antagonise them.

Well, for one the populists in the UK already won, so why should the EU care about how they spin it? Thats no longer our concern. What is our concern is that it is absolutely vital to vindicate every argument that predicted doom and disaster if the UK left the EU, made by the remain camp. We benefit by proving those people right. What is also vital is that we undeniably prove the people that said the economic downside would be relatively minor absolutely wrong. If we dont, populists in the Netherlands, France, Germany and every where else will get one very powerful example of a state leaving the EU and doing fine which strengthens their bid to do the same. 

It sucks to be a UK citizen then, but then again, they voted to leave, they should bear the full consequences of what was objectively a stupid decision. 

Finally, non of what I'm proposing is actually the EU trying to control peoples lives. Its just removing every way the EU has helped to make British life better in one fell swoop. The UK wanted its sovereignty back, well enjoy. 

That said, I would not want to screw over the nice people that voted to remain entirely. I think it would be beneficial if we kept the deal that allows British students to study in Europe and British workers to move to Europe to work here. 

12 hours ago, Ln X said:

No, no, no! The EU will disintegrate if it does that. It must handle a Brexit with care, firmness and fairness.

No, the EU will disintegrate if we go soft on them now. As mentioned above, letting the UK benefit from this will serve as a very powerful example that other populists can use. It is in our best interest that the UK loses, and loses in an absolutely terrifying manner. 

12 hours ago, Ln X said:

It cannot be seen to vindictively punish the democratic right of a member state to leave. If it does that then it is little more than a totalitarian cabal in disguise, a mafia if you will. A country can never leave without being punished? Is that what you are saying?

Its not punishment. The UK rejected the EU, rejected all the benefits that come with being a member of the EU, hence its only normal that the UK losses access to said benefits. If that hurts, well that was the predicted consequence of leaving. But lets be clear here, the UK wants to leave, so why should we make that a painless, easy and comfortable transition that again only benefits the UK at the expense of the EU and other member states? 

12 hours ago, Ln X said:

Also your vindictive tones disturb me. Remember Britain is a nuclear power, the 5th largest economy in the world and Britain has a stake in EU liabilities. Deutsche Bank has 70 trillion Euros in derivatives and insane liabilities, has it hedged it bets correctly with this Brexit? The EU financial system is fragile after years of that European financial crisis rearing its ugly head. Attacking the UK financial system is very dangerous because its a big player with a lot of liabilities. Conspiracy theorists and nutjobs say a collapse in one of the big economies would have awful ripple effects throughout the world, countries such as: USA, Britain, Germany, Japan, Canada...

We are not attacking the financial system, nor are we 'attacking' the UK's economy. This is your own doing, this is the consequence of leaving. If you don't like that, well then people shouldn't have voted against the EU. 

12 hours ago, Ln X said:

What you are saying, and if people of your political persuasion (I assume left/socialist) share this sentiment to varying degrees then I am disturbed by such childish reactionary comments. I voted to remain in the EU but I also knew the s--- which could come if the EU gets vindictive and if Scotland gets another referendum to leave the UK. Terrorism from UK citizens disgruntled at Scotland leaving, right-wing and left-wing positions becoming more entrenched and possibly militant.

Attacking the UK will only strengthen the Leave camp and draw young voters who voted to Remain into the Leave side and into some hardcore right-wing politics.

Well, that is bluntly put, not our problem anymore. In fact, if the UK completely collapses and falls apart, with a huge chunk of it holding a referendum to leave and rejoin the EU, it would serve as an extremely powerful message to any populists back on the continent. That a return to the old nation states and a rejection of Europe is a stupid idea and practically doesn't work out to well. To again, put things bluntly, the EU might actually benefit from an unstable and collapsing UK more than it would from a stable UK. Sucks to be living in the UK, but then again, they did vote to leave. 

12 hours ago, Ln X said:

I know you love the EU but what you are saying will destroy the EU and the European reunification process. What you are saying is the same mad stuff in between the WW1 to WW2 period. Know your history laddie, remember Versailles and how Germany was punished. Don't make the same mistake again because no one fights a war like us Europeans do.

Don't you see? A lot of people could be using a Brexit to push forward radical agendas and/or show their worst colours. Don't go down that path.

This is the stuff of wars and misery if left unchecked.

Again, we are not imposing anything, we are not adding punitive measures, all we are doing would be a return to a time before the UK was part of the EU on a time table that benefits the EU the most. 

Furthermore, I would like to add that yes, you are right and we are returning to a period between both big wars. But that is not because the EU is taking hypothetical fast decisions. Its because of this stupid referendum and the stupid populists who are currently celebrating. They want to return to a pre-war order of Europe, one which is ruled by sovereign nation states only, and who only cooperate on the bare minimum of things. One where trade no longer happens freely but where restrictions are imposed to protect national industries. One where nationalism and xenophobia go hand in hand and win from rational thinking and basic human kindness. That comes dangerously close to the period between WW1 and WW2 and somehow that is a wet dream to people like Farrage, LePen and Wilders. 

10 hours ago, OcramsRzr said:

If I had any doubts before, now I have none. LexusInfernus is a soviet (fan of Authoritarian Socialist Dictatorships), sometimes known as a dirty commie in the age of McCarthyism.

Uhuh, sure, totally a fan of authoritarians. *roll eyes* 

Seriously, if you have nothing useful to say about me, don't say anything about me. 

[Whte_rbt 1,431]

I would point out that when we joined EC in 1975 we were joining a common market arrangement not a political alliance. The fact that it has evolved into this is what is driving us away, not some twisted vision of the past. My reasons for voting to leave stem from the fact that we cannot trust the government in Brussels, we need some way to control migration into our country that Europe just doesn't seem to see the need for and the fact that we are paying for an additional set of government salaries and pensions that really benefit no-one.

  The EU shut down most of the fishing fleets where I grew up by mandating that we can only fish these certain areas at these certain times, not to protect the wildlife (wouldn't be against it if that were the reason) but to allow the other nations to fish the North Sea because they fished there own areas dry. The French government seems to have little interest in finding a permanent solution to the migration issue currently hitting Calais, just a whole load of whack-a-mole tactics to keeps things going round and round. Also some of the loopholes in EU regulations would read like comedy if it weren't so damn tragic.

 

[Delta 88 262]

12 hours ago, OcramsRzr said:

If I had any doubts before, now I have none. LexusInfernus is a soviet (fan of Authoritarian Socialist Dictatorships), sometimes known as a dirty commie in the age of McCarthyism.

 

Anyway, this is a GREAT week to do some Forex Trading. Those that put British Pounds into US Dollars made a fortune overnight and those that will put US Dollars (or better yet Euros) into British Pounds will make a fortune over the course of a year.

The far left is worse than the far right. The leftists seek complete social control. And if you don't agree with them and their "progressive" views, then you're "a racist and a bigot and you support Hitler". The constant virtue signalling from them is absolutely debilitating. 

They represent the fascist technological establishment and they don't even know it. I for one am glad the UK voted out of the stupid EU, simply because it's far more interesting than if they had voted to remain. Take notes and enjoy the freak show...

[FlyHigh 181]

What I find interesting is that there are now people trying to turn this into a right/left matter when that is not the case.

The british referendum was just another sign that this disjointed european union was not working. What will become of britain and europe until november is only speculation. The nationalists will be saying the brits are better, the pro-europeans are going to paint a catastrophic picture.
Between market behavior, elections in europe, proposal referendum from Scotland and party politics and hate speech, there are so many cards to play there is no way of predicting tomorrow.
We have to sit and wait.

[Delta 88 262]

36 minutes ago, FlyHigh said:

What I find interesting is that there are now people trying to turn this into a right/left matter when that is not the case.

The british referendum was just another sign that this disjointed european union was not working. What will become of britain and europe until november is only speculation. The nationalists will be saying the brits are better, the pro-europeans are going to paint a catastrophic picture.
Between market behavior, elections in europe, proposal referendum from Scotland and party politics and hate speech, there are so many cards to play there is no way of predicting tomorrow.
We have to sit and wait.

You know you could just address me directly instead of being cryptic when it's obvious you were referring to me...

I'm not turning it into a right/left matter. I dislike them both, they're two sides of the same coin. I just dislike the liberals a little more than the conservatives. I suppose I was straying off-topic and doing a little venting, I'll admit that.

[FlyHigh 181]

I was actually thinking of the video when I posted. Never meant to personalise. As I've said, people are passionate about this kind of topics. The truth is there is no way to predict the future 1 day after the happening.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

4 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

No, the EU will disintegrate if we go soft on them now. As mentioned above, letting the UK benefit from this will serve as a very powerful example that other populists can use. It is in our best interest that the UK loses, and loses in an absolutely terrifying manner. 

 

Its not punishment. The UK rejected the EU, rejected all the benefits that come with being a member of the EU, hence its only normal that the UK losses access to said benefits. If that hurts, well that was the predicted consequence of leaving. But lets be clear here, the UK wants to leave, so why should we make that a painless, easy and comfortable transition that again only benefits the UK at the expense of the EU and other member states?

LexusInfernus- how does that foster European unity if there is that much hostility towards a member state leaving? How does crippling the UK economy help to make the EU economy stronger?

Personally I think the EU is on shaky ground if it thinks it is ONLY populists who can break it up. These populists have only arisen because of structural flaws in the EU that either aren't being addressed or being done so half-heartedly. What you are saying actually reflects your doubts about the EU's viability because if it was that great then such harsh rhetoric would not be needed.

Talk of punishing Britain will only scare a lot of people in Europe and turn even more people away from the EU. It may be that more member states leave the EU but then maybe that hast to happen so that the EU can improve its political structures, sort out the financial issues and work more closely with Turkey and the Middle-East to limit migration and provide more support to nations who are expending a lot of resources to house Syrian, Yemeni and Iraqi refugees.

To conclude I don't think you believe in the EU and/or you have sorely misunderstood its reason for existing. Or maybe an above poster was right and you are a raving Soviet/Marxist/Left nutjob.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

If the EU treats the UK like a standard non-EU nation, the EU will be viewed as harsh but fair, which will send the best message against leaving. If the EU is viewed as a pushover, the Mediterranean world will be less dissuaded from staying. If the EU acts like the spiteful Tyrant as advocated by our resident Commie flame warrior (and a Political Science major to help with his social engineering), all the nations considering leaving (Greece, Spain, France, eastern Europe) will have more reasons to leave and might hold their own exit votes and dissolve the EU.

 

 I predict some cross-atlantic trade agreements because the USA likes Brittain and dislikes the EU.

[Cyclone Boom 17,031]

The UK has been divided in this referendum, both socially and geographically. This was always going to happen regardless of the outcome. What happens next is a giant leap into the unknown. Undoubtedly a massive risk has been taken, and it'll take many years before new agreements and trade deals are settled, and Britain's future outside the EU becomes clearer.

What needs to follow now is careful planning and negotiations, not panic. There doesn't seem a requirement to trigger Article 50 until the time is right. Timing is everything, but the big question is when is the time right?

The talk of a 2nd Scottish referendum / reforms is going to complicate matters even further.

[Dreadnought 8,231]

19 hours ago, rsc204 said:

So right at this moment and logically before the vote took place, no one could possibly make any promises. For starters, we couldn't know who would be in power at the point those promises would be met.

Well, I wouldn't take that information as gospel. There seems to be some misinformation spreading, some sources are saying it was the younger people that were most in favour of leaving. I suppose it comes down to which source you can trust, best of luck with that .

Personally, I've seen the UK change in ways that make me worry about returning there. Most of my friends are continually worse and worse off. They never get pay rises, many took pay cuts. Some are stuck on 0 hours contracts, young people have pretty much no chance of owning a house. Basically, I think the young wanted change, even if they don't really understand how the EU is not really the cause of many of their problems.
Funny how Scotland now thinks it should have another referendum so soon after the first "Once in a generation" one? It was pretty much obvious the moment the first one was over, they wanted to keep voting until they got the "right" answer. Remember the EU saying that Scotland couldn't necessarily join the EU or ERM around then? I do, the idea that they can just decide to do this is nonsensical. They are just trying to find another excuse to try again.

Really, why would we leave Nato? I can only imagine the UK would seek to strengthen it's ties with the US and commonwealth now.

Beware the media folks, so much of the issues have been ignored and blatant lies told everywhere. For starters, until after the vote went against remaining, apparently there was no strategy or plan for Brexit. It's been there all along, it was just in the interest of the media to deny it's existence. We are being controlled, this vote was a vote against that system of control. Will everything go swimmingly or easy from here on out, probably not. But will the sky fall in, not likely either.

 

Yes -- I understand there was a good bit of "misleading" talk and impossible "promising"  going on during the run up to the referendum.  This year's Presidential campaign in the US is the worst assemblage of slander, lies, and misinformation I have seen in all my 65 years.  And I understand Nigel Farage is not the only MP -- on both sides -- to make claims he could not support.  Unfortunately, the "people" are often all too willing to be lied to because it supports something they like.  The Human Animal is possibly the very best example of running with your emotion while disregarding fact and logic.

On this side of "the pond" -- it is being portrayed in the news media that the young saw opportunity for advancement within the EU, while the elderly wished to exit the EU to avoid immigration issues.  That has been the media spin -- so far.  I think it is based mainly on the fact that most of the votes to remain were cast in the south and east of the UK and mostly in the bigger cities where the young are more prevalent.

My chief concern for Nato was NOT that England would choose to opt-out.  All of these calls for separation (Scotland -- Northern Ireland) need to be settled once and for all.  My fear is that The UK will be weakened by secession movements until it is reduced to such dire straights that it will no longer be able to fiscally support an effective military deterrent force that can be quickly deployed to allow a respectable "power projection" beyond the North Atlantic.  In other words -- I do not wish to see Britain's footprint on the world stage diminished in any way.

Yes -- the voters are being controlled.  There is no doubt that their public opinion has been shaped by one party or the other.  But, then -- the control has ALWAYS been there.  Even before Boudica -- the masses were controlled.  Voting against the EU is merely a choice between which master holds the puppet strings.  Leaving the EU will provide little in the way of freedoms -- though it may stop immigration.  I think that is mainly what is wanted.  I saw one woman (a pensioner) interviewed that said she wanted "the bloody Chunnel filled up with concrete".

But -- that is "my take" on the situation. 

I will leave Europe to those that live there.  I already have my hands full trying to sort the daft from the slanderous in this country!

[Cool_Z 1,547]

Din't know if I should post it here or in the US elections topic...

Wow !!!!

And of course...

...and a ton more :

https://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/i-am-learning-so-much-cool-slang?utm_term=.pfMZ5RbJ8#.iiYBrLMxR

 

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Unless Trump is mildly clairvoyant and knows there will be a Scottish referendum soon and then Scotland becomes a country of its own...

Maybe...

Or maybe he just likes to wind-up people by feigning ignorance.

Dubya made a load of silly gaffs and I swear to God that man was deliberately playing stupid.

[jmsepe 2,039]

Fact is, many googled what EU is all about after the referrendum. Democracy will not work well if people do not have widsom i.e. the knowledge on what they are actually voting about. In my opinion, what happened in Brexit was nothing but xenophobia and that is all there is to it. 

[_Michael 2,681]

25 minutes ago, jmsepe said:

Fact is, many googled what EU is all about after the referrendum. Democracy will not work well if people do not have widsom i.e. the knowdlege on what they are actually voting about. In my opinion, what happened in Brexit was nothing but xenophobia and that is all there is to it. 

 

So true. Immigration wrongly dominated the debate, and ultimately, lead people to vote leave without realising the consequences.

In other news, Labour is in turmoil following the vote. Hilary Benn has been fired, another shadow minister as resigned, and the BBC has learned half of the shadow-cabinet are due to resign by lunch time.

[LexusInfernus 908]

On 25-6-2016 at 11:02 AM, Whte_rbt said:

I would point out that when we joined EC in 1975 we were joining a common market arrangement not a political alliance. The fact that it has evolved into this is what is driving us away, not some twisted vision of the past. My reasons for voting to leave stem from the fact that we cannot trust the government in Brussels, we need some way to control migration into our country that Europe just doesn't seem to see the need for and the fact that we are paying for an additional set of government salaries and pensions that really benefit no-one.

Well, quickly about the migration issue, the EU allows you to control migration quite well. The idea that you don't control your own borders is ridiculous nonsense cooked up by liars like Farrage. First, when we are talking about the refugees currently coming in to Europe, well the UK has done absolutely nothing about taking them in. The amount of refugees that the UK takes in is just pathetic. And what about all those Eastern Europeans that supposedly came in to leech off the NHS? Well, the actual facts show that they all have jobs, work hard, pay taxes and positively contribute to British society. And even if they don't, EU rules clearly state that migrants cannot be a burden on the social welfare system of a host state, meaning they have to pay for their own stay, and if they can't, they can be deported. 

Unless of course the goal is that no one is allowed into the UK anymore, in which case, good job. 

Quote

  The EU shut down most of the fishing fleets where I grew up by mandating that we can only fish these certain areas at these certain times, not to protect the wildlife (wouldn't be against it if that were the reason) but to allow the other nations to fish the North Sea because they fished there own areas dry. The French government seems to have little interest in finding a permanent solution to the migration issue currently hitting Calais, just a whole load of whack-a-mole tactics to keeps things going round and round. Also some of the loopholes in EU regulations would read like comedy if it weren't so damn tragic.

Those fishing regulations also prevent UK fisherman from fishing their own sea dry, as well as preventing the French and Spanish from fishing UK seas dry after they were done with their own sea. It promotes sustainable fishing, so your grand kids can hopefully have Fish and Chips as well. Is that really such a bad thing? More importantly, do you think your fishing industry will suddenly recover now that you are out of the EU? You can be sure that the fishing policies will remain in effect.  

20 hours ago, Ln X said:

LexusInfernus- how does that foster European unity if there is that much hostility towards a member state leaving? How does crippling the UK economy help to make the EU economy stronger?

Frankly, because of the leave camp's success we now have politicians in the Netherlands and France calling for referendums as well. The UK inspired them. And if the UK is treated with soft gloves aimed at minimizing the impact of the Brexit, they will point at the UK as an example that life without the EU is a viable option. So more referendums follow, presenting an ever greater threat to the EU and the unity in Europe. If at the other hand the UK collapses, the proponents of more EU will be able to use the UK as an example that leaving the EU is not a viable option, those referendums won't happen or the stay camp wins with an overwhelming majority and the EU's future is secured for the moment. 

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Personally I think the EU is on shaky ground if it thinks it is ONLY populists who can break it up. These populists have only arisen because of structural flaws in the EU that either aren't being addressed or being done so half-heartedly. What you are saying actually reflects your doubts about the EU's viability because if it was that great then such harsh rhetoric would not be needed.

Yes and no. There are structural problems that the EU needs to adres. At the same time, these populists are simply inventing flaws in the European system that just don't exist. They are liars, and because to few people understand how the EU works, they are unable to spot those lies. Furthermore, I don't think that a lot of people really care if they are part of the EU yes or no. They are angry, but they are angry at the establishment and to them the EU is part of the establishment, so when they get a choice to kick the establishment, they do it. But that is something the EU needs to adress, it needs to justify its existence for the 'common' people as well, it needs to show that people strongly benefit from the EU. But there the problem is that national politicians don't like that. For years now, national politicians have shifted the blame of their failures onto the EU, while they took credit for all the successes of the EU. They have a vested interest in keeping the EU as far away as possible from the 'common' people. 

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Talk of punishing Britain will only scare a lot of people in Europe and turn even more people away from the EU. It may be that more member states leave the EU but then maybe that hast to happen so that the EU can improve its political structures, sort out the financial issues and work more closely with Turkey and the Middle-East to limit migration and provide more support to nations who are expending a lot of resources to house Syrian, Yemeni and Iraqi refugees.

Again, its not punishment. If you hold your hand in the fire and it then burns you, you aren't being punished by the fire. Reality just hits you. The UK has been playing with fire, now it burned itself and that hurts. Deal with it. 

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To conclude I don't think you believe in the EU and/or you have sorely misunderstood its reason for existing. Or maybe an above poster was right and you are a raving Soviet/Marxist/Left nutjob.

The reason of existence of the EU was to prevent war from ever happening again on the continent. That is what the people in the UK have turned their backs to. 

16 hours ago, OcramsRzr said:

If the EU treats the UK like a standard non-EU nation, the EU will be viewed as harsh but fair, which will send the best message against leaving. If the EU is viewed as a pushover, the Mediterranean world will be less dissuaded from staying. If the EU acts like the spiteful Tyrant as advocated by our resident Commie flame warrior (and a Political Science major to help with his social engineering), all the nations considering leaving (Greece, Spain, France, eastern Europe) will have more reasons to leave and might hold their own exit votes and dissolve the EU.

 I predict some cross-atlantic trade agreements because the USA likes Brittain and dislikes the EU.

Well the US actually likes the EU given that its the largest trading block in human history. Access to the common market is quite lucrative for the US. Far more than a trade agreement with a single nation. Also, historically the US has better relations with France than with the British. After all, the French supported the Americans when they fought their war for independence, and the US political system is heavily influenced by French political philosophies. 

Also, I've not advocated to act spiteful. I've simply argued its best to return our relations with the UK to that of a non EU country as soon as possible, as quickly as possible. The side effects of that however will be quite painful for the UK. But hey, the UK claims that its better off on its own, that its big and strong enough to not need to EU, so there is no need for us to treat them with extra soft gloves. 

Also, whatever happened to 'discuss the issue, not the person'? These petty attacks on my character are not conducive to a constructive discussion. 

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2 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

Frankly, because of the leave camp's success we now have politicians in the Netherlands and France calling for referendums as well.

These politicians being politicians, utilising democracy to allowed the ruled to have a say, how dare they.

2 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

Well, quickly about the migration issue, the EU allows you to control migration quite well. The idea that you don't control your own borders is ridiculous nonsense cooked up by liars like Farrage.

How exactly do the UK get to control its own borders when they are required not to stop people on the border? You do realise that the important word in "free movement" is not movement, but free? I fail to see how one controls immigration into ones country when said immigrants may live for up to three months in another EU state without any other conditions than being in possession of an ID card.

2 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

And even if they don't, EU rules clearly state that migrants cannot be a burden on the social welfare system of a host state, meaning they have to pay for their own stay, and if they can't, they can be deported. 

The principle of "equal treatment" clearly gives any EU citizen the right to enjoy all social and tax advantages, as long as they are to be considered a worker. And no, the status of worker does not imply that you actually work.

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It's entirely correct that the UK did not join the European Union. Back in the day, they joined the European Economic Community, a community established to "ensure the economic and social progress"; with the "essential purpose of constantly improving the living and working conditions of their peoples"; it did intend to "strengthen the safeguards of peace and liberty by establishing this combination of resources", but security was not a primary concern of the EEC, as anyone can read in the treaty. It is important to know that there were efforts to integrate defence and a political framework back then, but that these efforts failed. I.e., in 1973 it was very clear that it was only an economic community and not a political community (which the French went against a couple of decades earlier).

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Krbe:

First UK wasn't part of Schengen, so they could control their borders just as it pleased them.

Second: This three month limit also gives students a chanche to live in another country for a few months or companies to temporareley move some employee's working places in other countries (like helping to build up a new company office and supporting it for the first two months) without tons of useless and expensive buerocracy.

Third: Border controls might not be felt as extensive as before but they're still there, even within the Schengen area. Noticed all thoose vehicle control points along the motorway networks? Noticed police stopping vehicles close to borders for random controls?

Fourth: Free movement within EU is a massive live quality bonus: Just visit your neighbouring country by taking the next bus over there, pay in the same currency and go back home. No fees for changeing money, no border waiting times. Good times.

Fifth: Border waiting times cause a massive damage to the economy, as employees could be more productive doing other things than by standing in front of a stupid border waiting to pass for almost two hours.

 

 

And about migration: Just a look, please, how many brits found a job outside of UK. If you make thoose come back and throw other EU citizens out of your country you might notice no big changes excep for the fact that many "cheap" workers might have disappeared and you oughta pay more for specific things....