Post station fix requests here

[xxdita 1,097]

2 hours ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

So I tested them and they all seem to be working fine. I can attach screenshots if you like (I already took them.)

No thanks, I know what they look like lol

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

12 minutes ago, xxdita said:

So maybe keeping these files here is the better solution, to avoid confusion.

If the lots get broken in Windows, I concur that here will be the better way to go with posting the Mac variety.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

5 minutes ago, xxdita said:

From a technical standpoint, there was nothing wrong with any of these lots that I could see.

With respect, yes, there was. They didn't work right on the Mac. If it doesn't work on the Mac, it's broken. Treating it as if Windows is the default and if it runs fine on Windows, then it's fine & Mac users should just be happy with whatever we get turns Mac users into second class users, which isn't fair to us. We have the same rights to working files as the Windows users, and if a file didn't work in Windows, it would be considered broken & in need of repair (possibly even locked down until it was fixed), so it needs to be considered broken if it doesn't work right on the Mac. (Anything less sets up a 2 tiered system of functionality & accessibility, and that's unacceptable.)

10 minutes ago, xxdita said:

For Windows, an entry cost of 0 promotes shortcutting through the lot. This can eat up a bit of the station's capacity that should be used for actual passengers and not just lookyloos and fence jumpers. This is usually a trivial thing for a 1x1 station with just one road connection, but can be crippling for a larger station with roads on even 2 sides.

If it does it on Windows, it's also doing it on the Mac, so it's not like that's a Windows-only issue. That's an issue for all users of the file.

That being said, I think I get what you're saying, but I've always seen that as a bonus instead of a drawback & I've intentionally used that as a feature in some of my cities. (The parking lots that are a dependency for one of those files do exactly that. In fact, my Sims seem to like using it like a carsharing location (they arrive on foot or transit and then drive out of the parking lot to their destination) more than driving there and parking and getting on transit.) Having certain files that people are willing to walk through to get to the other side when they wouldn't walk nearly that far without the file? Plop that file down!  

That being said, that would only be an issue if we ONLY had the Mac version posted. But our idea was to post both the Windows and the Mac versions (like the screenshot), and then the Windows version wouldn't be "broken", as you called it. So it's really a non-issue for Windows folks (and Mac folks'll just have to put up with it.) So I'm not seeing where the issue is. (Heck, if you want, we can even state that both versions actually work on Windows, but the Mac version will be used more like a ped mall as well and have greater foot traffic, so then if people see that as a bonus, they can intentionally choose that version of the file.)

7 minutes ago, xxdita said:

So maybe keeping these files here is the better solution, to avoid confusion.

With all due respect, I disagree.

I think Mac users should be the ones to decide this, as we're the ones who are affected by it the most. And I, as a Mac user, think they should be posted, but am willing to hear from other Mac users too. In part, because newbies would have no idea why the station isn't working right, no idea this bug exists, and no idea to look here to find fixed files. And we're trying to keep this as easy & simple as possible.

Plus, trying to remember which files were fixed in what ZIP files can be confusing. We could make a listing with just the ZIP files and the listings, but why do that when the ability to simply have it attached to the listing is available? Why should we have to go through extra effort to get our files when it's not strictly needed & Windows users don't? Frankly, we already have to jump through tons of extra hoops the Windows users don't simply because people don't care about the Mac users & don't want to make things easier on us (read: make things equal for us) (you have no idea how much extra time it takes up having to use something like Wineskin or even FileJuicer for EVERY addon when doing a mass install with those EXEs (like it adds on an extra minute or 2 to each install, and that really adds up), and that's just one complaint), so considering it doesn't actually burden the Windows users any, I see no reason to make it harder yet again on the Mac users.

Try to put yourself in our shoes. We're not just people who are trying to be stubborn or obstinant because we won't "just switch to using the Windows version of the game", we're people who simply want our game to work the way everyone else's does and to have the same experience (whether in the game or on this site) as all the other users.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

21 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

If the lots get broken in Windows, I concur that here will be the better way to go with posting the Mac variety.

Please read my reply to xxdita before making up your mind.

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

1 minute ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

Please read my reply to xxdita before making up your mind.

I just read your reply. @Cyclone Boom and I are discussing your concerns. He'll reply later as I've got to log off for now.

[xxdita 1,097]

1 hour ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

With respect, yes, there was. They didn't work right on the Mac. If it doesn't work on the Mac, it's broken. Treating it as if Windows is the default and if it runs fine on Windows, then it's fine & Mac users should just be happy with whatever we get turns Mac users into second class users, which isn't fair to us. We have the same rights to working files as the Windows users, and if a file didn't work in Windows, it would be considered broken & in need of repair (possibly even locked down until it was fixed), so it needs to be considered broken if it doesn't work right on the Mac. (Anything less sets up a 2 tiered system of functionality & accessibility, and that's unacceptable.)

If it does it on Windows, it's also doing it on the Mac, so it's not like that's a Windows-only issue. That's an issue for all users of the file.

That being said, I think I get what you're saying, but I've always seen that as a bonus instead of a drawback & I've intentionally used that as a feature in some of my cities. (The parking lots that are a dependency for one of those files do exactly that. In fact, my Sims seem to like using it like a carsharing location (they arrive on foot or transit and then drive out of the parking lot to their destination) more than driving there and parking and getting on transit.) Having certain files that people are willing to walk through to get to the other side when they wouldn't walk nearly that far without the file? Plop that file down!  

That being said, that would only be an issue if we ONLY had the Mac version posted. But our idea was to post both the Windows and the Mac versions (like the screenshot), and then the Windows version wouldn't be "broken", as you called it. So it's really a non-issue for Windows folks (and Mac folks'll just have to put up with it.) So I'm not seeing where the issue is. (Heck, if you want, we can even state that both versions actually work on Windows, but the Mac version will be used more like a ped mall as well and have greater foot traffic, so then if people see that as a bonus, they can intentionally choose that version of the file.)

With all due respect, I disagree.

I think Mac users should be the ones to decide this, as we're the ones who are affected by it the most. And I, as a Mac user, think they should be posted, but am willing to hear from other Mac users too. In part, because newbies would have no idea why the station isn't working right, no idea this bug exists, and no idea to look here to find fixed files. And we're trying to keep this as easy & simple as possible.

Plus, trying to remember which files were fixed in what ZIP files can be confusing. We could make a listing with just the ZIP files and the listings, but why do that when the ability to simply have it attached to the listing is available? Why should we have to go through extra effort to get our files when it's not strictly needed & Windows users don't? Frankly, we already have to jump through tons of extra hoops the Windows users don't simply because people don't care about the Mac users & don't want to make things easier on us (read: make things equal for us) (you have no idea how much extra time it takes up having to use something like Wineskin or even FileJuicer for EVERY addon when doing a mass install with those EXEs (like it adds on an extra minute or 2 to each install, and that really adds up), and that's just one complaint), so considering it doesn't actually burden the Windows users any, I see no reason to make it harder yet again on the Mac users.

Try to put yourself in our shoes. We're not just people who are trying to be stubborn or obstinant because we won't "just switch to using the Windows version of the game", we're people who simply want our game to work the way everyone else's does and to have the same experience (whether in the game or on this site) as all the other users.

I'm not sure how to break up quotes here, but I'm going to try to respond to each point in the order you've made it. 

1) There is a difference between broken and not-compatible with the game on your OS. Maxis and Aspyr have made that decision, not anyone here. But I do understand your point, because I would never release anything that does not work on my machine the way I know that it is intended to. 

2) It is not about treating MAC users as second class citizen. Nobody feels that way. In fact, we are going out of our way to help you. But it is a smaller part of the community that needs certain files to be made differently than others. Much like CAM users, or those that use the DarkNight mod, you have specialized needs. 

3) Traffic flow using a transit station as a shortcut can absolutely cripple that station. This is the sole reason NAM includes any lots these days. For a long time, they were dead set against it. A transit station absolutely cannot function if it's usage reaches 300% of its capacity. It just shuts down completely. THAT would be broken. And that is exactly what can happen with stations that have a 0 entry cost. 

4) Again, just like CAM users or those that play using Dark Night, MAC users have different needs. There is an entire forum section on SC4D to help modify lots for people that use CAM, and there is nothing stopping anyone from doing the same to make CAMelots compatible with vanilla SC4. I cannot make any admin level decisions here, but I can and will state my opinion and facts on a matter. I personally believe that any and all files that deviate from what works on SimCity4 Deluxe after all updates have been applied should be kept separate from those that are intended for a smaller audience. I honestly don't even like the fact that the most recent version of CAM is uploaded to the STEX for this reason, as 99.9% of everything else that is on the STEX is inCAMpatible. Why do that to people? But it wasn't my file to upload, so not my call. Nor will I insist that all model files used in CAMelots be made into Mega Packs, so that I don't have to deal with the lots that will ultimately mess up my game should I use them. 

5) I think there are many of us that go out of our way to help new and experienced players alike, as much as we possibly can. So please don't disrespect that. There is absolutely no way that any of us can anticipate the needs of everyone that finds their way to these forums. We can only share our own experiences. That said, if you feel new MAC users need a better introduction to the wonderful world of custom content, then it would be great for you to present ideas on how to do that. 

6) There has been absolutely nothing to stop anyone familiar with coding for MAC to create tools for the game that are compatible in all of these years. But it takes someone with such skills, time, and love of the game & community to be able to do it. Not to mention a MAC in order to test it on. Many of the creators of the tools we use have made their source code available. There has been absolutely nothing stopping anyone with the skills to do it from doing whatever technical wizardry necessary to make MAC-compatible versions of these. But all of that is out of my skillset, so I can't help you there. 

7) As I stated before, you should contact Aspyr about the irregularities in your game. Or Steam, or whatever digital retailer you've gone through. You get a thread going in the appropriate forum, and I will gladly support you in that cause, but it's not my fight to take the lead on. 

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

I'd like to start with the following:

I want people to understand I deeply appreciate the help everyone else has given (seriously... I can't stress this enough). The SC4 modding community is the bomb dot com in so many ways, not the least of which being our dedication to a VERY old game, and, accordingly, our dedication to helping others that play this VERY old game.

I'm not asking for anything more than a file that works (more or less) as intended, and to be able to find said file where everyone else finds it. I'm not asking for anything special or anything more than what the Windows users expect (and get).

38 minutes ago, xxdita said:

2) It is not about treating MAC users as second class citizen. Nobody feels that way. In fact, we are going out of our way to help you. But it is a smaller part of the community that needs certain files to be made differently than others. Much like CAM users, or those that use the DarkNight mod. 

 

This is long but if you read nothing else, please read #3.

1) I feel that way, and I'm not nobody. I very deeply feel that way and I'm pretty fed up with it. The policies & procedures of this site are skewed towards Windows users at the expense of Mac users, and that's not okay. If it wasn't at our expense, I wouldn't care.

Lemme put it this way. If I ran the site? Every file posted would have to be fully Mac compatible as well as fully Windows compatible, or it would be treated as any other broken file. Preferably, we'd want it fixed and only have one file, but if the only way to accomplish that would be to make 2 versions of a given file, then okay. Said files would be posted like in than image I gave you: Mac versions beside Windows versions. There would be documents for the Windows users on how to make their files Mac compatible. Testing Mac compatibility would be considered simply part of the testing process, just like you'd test for Windows compatibility. On top of that, all EXEs would be extracted and turned into ZIP files & posted. Full compatibility for ALL SC users would be de rigeur, and anything less would be unthinkable.

Why? Because there's a Windows version and a Mac version of the program. Both are equal versions. No version is any more or less valid than the other. No version should be favored over another.

That being said, I realize part of that way of doing things (esp. the nightlighting thing) is a pipe dream. (And I'm not expecting the EXE thing, although I wouldn't mind tackling it myself. I mean, even some of the files would be better than none.) Which I accept. But that level of compatibility is what's expected for the Windows users, and just because we have a different OS doesn't mean we should expect anything less. Tyrannies of the majority never look good. Just because there's more Windows users (and they have a patched game) doesn't mean they're any more valid, or their needs are more important.

2) "Going out of our way to help you"? I'm terribly sorry if this sounds harsh, but if people made the files compatible from the start, we wouldn't need the help of other folks. Honestly, I'd rather not need your or anyone else's help; I'd rather it just worked. (Heck, not to get into an OS war or anything, but that's part of the reason I chose the Mac when I did. I worked for years in Windows desktop support and I wanted something I didn't have to mess around with if I didn't want to when I got home at night. I wanted something that just worked for me. (And FWIW, I also used Linux for years.))

Also, being forced to do all of these workarounds because people keep making things easier for the Windows users (not caring it makes it harder for the Mac users) hardly feels like "going out of our way to help you". It's not just one thing. It's all of the following: dealing with EXEs thing, knowing 99% of the files simply won't have a specific feature (nightlighting), never knowing if a transit file is going to work right or not (transit bug), now you're proposing we have to go to a special place to DL the files instead of just being able to get our files where everyone else does. And that's on top of the actual bugs in the actual game, like the Too Many Files bug. And that's not even mentioning the fact that we don't have Mac versions of any of the 3rd party programs (including the ones we'd need to fix things for ourselves.) (On an almost total aside, who wrote jDatPacker? Because Java IS cross-platform.)

As I said before, I dearly appreciate what everyone has done, but put yourself in a Mac user's shoes and see why that feels a bit patronizing.

3) The difference between Mac users and CAM users or DarkNight mod users is that those people have CHOSEN to introduce a mod that changes how the game works. We have not CHOSEN to have our game be different. We did not CHOOSE to not get patches. We did NOT put a mod in that made our game not work right or work differently. The only thing we chose was to use a Mac, and we shouldn't be penalized for it by having to go through extra crap (including having to ask help of our fellow Windows users), when a few seconds of extra labor by creators (and the simple task of putting our files with everyone else's files, as if they're equal) would make this not be an issue.

Since Mac users never CHOSE this, we shouldn't be lumped in with CAM users or DarkNight mod users. (Which, BTW, said DarkNight files ARE listed beside the MaxisNight files, and if they are, ours should be too. With all due respect, I'm sorry if you accidentally DL the wrong one, but I don't think Mac users should be forced to go through more steps because you accidentally DL the wrong file sometimes.)

While I agree this is because of Aspyr/Steam, we can point fingers at Aspyr/Steam & contact them all day (and they may or may not do anything about it), or we can accept the program as it is and try to make the best of things. We know how to make things work despite the bugs. All we're asking is to be allowed to have the fixes posted where the other files are. We're not even asking that all the old files be fixed. We just want working files where everyone else posts working files.

And no one's asking you to take the lead. Just have our backs.

[xxdita 1,097]

I have been playing this game for far too long to know the plights of a new player. And since I've always played the game on Windows, any compatibility issue I've faced was also faced by the majority of players, and somehow we overcame them all. But it was a group effort that had to be done with every new version and half the Windows Updates. 

You're right that installing DarkNight files that I can't use was my own fault. But I have no doubt that I'm not alone in doing so. I also have no doubt that there will be new and experienced users alike that download both versions of anything that gets uploaded. That's been proven time and again. 

A MAC fix file would require any models included in the original upload as a dependency. So ultimately, MAC users will be downloading both anyway, whether they're on the STEX or posted here. It's too late to change that, so it may not matter at this point. But I believe that if they find the fixed lots here, then there is at least some information about what the differences in the files are and they will hopefully not bother to install the original. 

I'm pretty sure that the OP of this thread was also a MAC user, on a dual-boot system. He made his fixed files available as new downloads, as that was just the way things were done back then. I'll respect whatever Cori & CB decide on the matter, as I really don't have a dog in the race. But my opinion hasn't changed. You're right that it damn well is a "separate but equal" sort of thing, but it's one that we have to cope with the best we can, until it changes. 

At least with MAC users, there is a way to adapt for some of the inequalities. It's not like those that purchase from Origin, where our only real option is to tell them to get a refund. But there's only so much that can be done. 

[mattb325 28,880]

I see the two of you are quite passionate about this.

I understand each of your points of view completely, however, as one of the longest standing and most prolific custom content creators, let me throw in my two cents.

2 hours ago, xxdita said:

This is the sole reason NAM includes any lots these days. For a long time, they were dead set against it. A transit station absolutely cannot function if it's usage reaches 300% of its capacity. It just shuts down completely. THAT would be broken. And that is exactly what can happen with stations that have a 0 entry cost

They also increased the station capacities exponentially when re-distributing these lots. But it would be best for someone from the NAM team to confirm whether Mac compatibility was their main reason behind reversing a long-standing decision.

2 hours ago, xxdita said:

99.9% of everything else that is on the STEX is inCAMpatible. Why do that to people?

All of my lots are CAMpitable, whether I explicitly state it in the uploads or not. So, too, are all of the BSC lots, modded to the BSC standards, here on the STEX. While the older BSC lots may not be especially tuned to the needs of CAM, they will still function between stages 1 through 8. If I just look at Simgoobers and my files alone, the two of us make up 3% of the available BATs on the STEX, and that's before I include Spa, JBSimio, and so on. Further, since the widespread uptake of the PIM-X, all of the bats released in the last few years are likely to also conform to the requirements of the CAM, as so few users still rely on the PIM (and those that did, like rretail, I gave a helping hand behind the scenes to get the PIM-X working)

1 hour ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

The policies & procedures of this site are skewed towards Windows users at the expense of Mac users

With all of the stations I have released, I have tried to remain mindful of the needs of Mac users by tweaking the required settings: ultimately I make the stations for myself and then choose to share them with others, so if I forget, then that is a fact of life. My newer stations certainly do not suffer capacity issues even with the Mac compatible settings. Again, I seldom bother advertising any of this.

1 hour ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

If I ran the site? Every file posted would have to be fully Mac compatible as well as fully Windows compatible

I appreciate the stance, but it is nigh on impossible for a content creator on windows to test functionality on a mac without purchasing a mac. When the old PC I use for SC4 dies, that's it for my involvement (BAT4Max is incompatible with Win10 and the newer versions of 3dsMax, and furthermore version 2017 is the last compatible version for SC4), so I certainly won't be purchasing another piece of kit to test against someone else's variables. 

1 hour ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

but put yourself in a Mac user's shoes and see why that feels a bit patronizing

I do note on the other hand that Macs allow for windows partitions to be created.

 

Now I suppose it's time for some home truth.

Those of us who make models, mods and lots do this in our own time on our own PCs or Macs.

Reasons for sharing with the community are many and varied; some want the kudos, some enjoy sharing for its own sake, and some like me, also enjoy seeing the community remain after 2 decades. Some content creators test their work thoroughly prior to release, others less so, some others not at all. The beauty and terror of this is that there is no guarantee with what you download and you will never know which content creator makes good, bad or indifferent work apart from trying it out for yourself. Similarly you will never know whether something is compatible with your set up (O/S or mods, it's quite irrelevant) until you try it out for yourself. That, quite simply, is a truth universal, whether you are on a Mac or PC and there are no second class citizens there. To drive home this point, I will state that some of the most ground breaking modifications have been made on a mac because it allows things to be visible that are usually hidden from a windows user. You need only look at simmaster07s work to see that in action; I doubt any would consider his contributions those of a second class citizen.

In downloading any game mods form this or any other site, ultimately you do so at your own risk, and if these files don't work for you, you either have to make them work for you by learning to modify the files you have downloaded, or you just pass them by. And believe me, that sentence holds just as true for windows users: modifying files for my own use to work with my preferences was why I got into batting in the first place fifteen years ago.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

49 minutes ago, xxdita said:

A MAC fix file would require any models included in the original upload as a dependency. So ultimately, MAC users will be downloading both anyway, whether they're on the STEX or posted here.

I see what you're saying. My thought was to have the same, full ZIP with all the other files, but simply replace the one file with the fixed file. This may run into the "sanctity of original upload" issue, but I have always been of the opinion that the spirit of the law should be followed there, and not be slaves to the letter of it. My thought is: if the OP had realized it didn't work on Mac, they would have fixed it themselves, and their original intention was to upload a file that works, and all we're doing is making the file work in the way that the OP had intended. But then, I always have been known as Chaotic Good.

 

22 minutes ago, mattb325 said:

nigh on impossible for a content creator on windows to test functionality on a mac without purchasing a mac

I should have gone into more detail. By "making sure it works", I was going to say that I think "making sure the file settings equal what the community has discovered is necessary for full compatibility" would be good enough. That is, if you know there's a 0 instead of a 1 in that slot that needs the 0, that's good enough. (It couldn't hurt if another Mac user checked it, however, and I'd be happy to check any and all files that people would like me to check. I extend this to the entire BATting community. I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is to benefit the entire Mac SC4 community.) In no way shape or form do I think PC users should have to test it on a physical Mac, and as a person who has used Hackintoshes in the past, I definitely understand that getting macOS/OSX to run on a PC is often non-trivial (or impossible) (let alone of questionable legality.)

22 minutes ago, mattb325 said:

My newer stations certainly do not suffer capacity issues even with the Mac compatible settings. Again, I seldom bother advertising any of this.

For the love of whatever, PLEASE advertise this. Knowing you have Mac compatible files, Mac users will flock to your files & DL them, knowing they won't have problems with them. Forgive me if I let the cat out of the bag. Also, we can't thank you for what we don't know you're doing, or even acknowledge it. (Do you know any other creators who are quietly making Mac compatible files in the background?)

BTW... THANK YOU. Thank you SO VERY MUCH.

22 minutes ago, mattb325 said:

modifying files for my own use to work with my preferences was why I got into batting in the first place fifteen years ago.

The problem with this mindset is us Mac users literally can not modify our own files, to the best of my knowledge. We would love to. We do not have the tools. And as I am not a coder (started down that path, found it wasn't right for me, quit) I can't make the tools myself. (Can anyone port iLiveReader to Java? It looks like it's written in C++? But with some MS specific stuff?) 

(Really, I need to see if I can get iLiveReader working in Wineskin & working happily w/ other files on my HD.)

[xxdita 1,097]

@mattb325, I just read through the old thread by z at SC4D regarding the NAM/lot thing, circa 2009, I think? The main reason was to adjust for increased network capacities, as far as I can tell, but then the NAM team doesn't do anything half-assed, so of course they did the mathelations and whatnot for pretty much every value in every lot to be included. I honestly haven't dug very deep into the actual modding of the lots included, as I generally trust the gearheads to know what they're doing. But with just a quick glance in PIMX, I see that some stations have a small transit switch cost, and some have 0. I have no idea if the MAC version of NAM is exactly the same, or if the TSEC has been removed completely. If it is the same, then I trust the gearhead metrics, and we nongearheads have probably mucked things up a bit in this thread. 

I think the lots I've tweaked here have started with a TSEC of 1, and I changed them to 0, per the directions provided. But if a minor TSEC of .4 or less (depending on the size of the lot in question) provides the best compromise between both worlds, then it seems there's maths to be done. 

And that DN thing is all your fault. That whole "KEEP ONE FILE ONLY DUMMY!" thing goes against my OCD.  But I do see that at some point, you decided to make separate uploads instead of all in one. I do appreciate that. 

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

22 minutes ago, xxdita said:

the MAC version of NAM

The Mac version of the NAM currently can't be installed on the most recent version of macOS that will still run SC4, that is, macOS Mojave. It has major crashing errors and simply will not run. They were supposed to fix it but never did.

Mac users who want to use the NAM either install it on a Windows box/partition & copy/paste the files or use Wineskin to install it. (In the Windows EXE, there's a checkbox that asks if you're installing this to use on a Mac, so it won't freeze when it doesn't find specific files/folders.) I did the latter when I installed the most basic NAM a few months ago.

[mattb325 28,880]

38 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

For the love of whatever, PLEASE advertise this.

As I said earlier, sometimes I forget. While I'm mindful, I don't play on a Mac, and with the huge number of other things required to get transit stations to function (on windows, let alone a Mac) there's no way to test, hence I don't advertise.

 

23 minutes ago, xxdita said:

I think the lots I've tweaked here have started with a TSEC of 1, and I changed them to 0, per the directions provided. But if a minor TSEC of .4 or less (depending on the size of the lot in question) provides the best compromise between both worlds, then it seems there's maths to be done. 

That information is not quite correct.

It isn't the TSEC value that needs to change, it is the REP count within the TSEC value. When using the SC4Tool to transit enable, there is a bug that changes the rep count on the TSEC line and the Capacity Line from 0 to 1. It is this bug that causes the incompatibility with Macs. I've attached a screen shot of my City Link Train Station file. A very complex transit station that is MAC compatible.  You'll note that the REP counts are 0. The capacity and TSEC values are both correct against Z's stated values.

28 minutes ago, xxdita said:

And that DN thing is all your fault. That whole "KEEP ONE FILE ONLY DUMMY!" thing goes against my OCD. 

Lol. The LEX hasn't ever allowed me a choice of files to be uploaded, so I have to do it that way over there. Here, I just just select the two folders....

[mattb325 28,880]

14 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

I don't understand a lot of the details, but are you saying that 0 or 1 are not the only options you can use in that spot? If so, would you like to give me a file that uses 0.4 and I'll see if it works on my install? I'd be happy to try. (Anything that makes it work properly AND keeps it closer to the intentions of the original creator is awesome in my book. I'm not out to mess with creators, I swear.)

You're both not correct.

There are two lines that need to be reviewed in the Reader.

They should look like this:

Name                                 | Name Value              | Data Type | Rep | Value

Transit Switch Entry Cost          | 0xE90E25A2 | Float32      | 0 |     Variable

Transit Switch Traffic Capacity | 0xE90E25A3 | Float32      | 0 |     Variable

 

If the Rep is 1 it suffers the Mac bug. The variable relates to the values as assigned by z of the NAM team (or in really old content, the content creator)

[xxdita 1,097]

22 minutes ago, mattb325 said:

As I said earlier, sometimes I forget. While I'm mindful, I don't play on a Mac, and with the huge number of other things required to get transit stations to function (on windows, let alone a Mac) there's no way to test, hence I don't advertise.

 

That information is not quite correct.

It isn't the TSEC value that needs to change, it is the REP count within the TSEC value. When using the SC4Tool to transit enable, there is a bug that changes the rep count on the TSEC line and the Capacity Line from 0 to 1. It is this bug that causes the incompatibility with Macs. I've attached a screen shot of my City Link Train Station file. A very complex transit station that is MAC compatible.  You'll note that the REP counts are 0. The capacity and TSEC values are both correct against Z's stated values.

Lol. The LEX hasn't ever allowed me a choice of files to be uploaded, so I have to do it that way over there. Here, I just just select the two folders....

Well then I've likely botched that completely. Which makes most of my part of this conversation totally invalid. I should have known better than to even enter a gearhead thread. MAC gearhead stuff? Next time, I'll run away screaming. 

But this is why I don't upload to any exchange without someone doublechecking my stuff. 

@c4bl3fl4m3, as an apology for that entire back and forth, I will get the files actually corrected. Give me two shakes. 

 

Oh, and @mattb325 if you used installers, it would force people to make the difficult choice between files.   

Honestly, I'm so familiar with the quality of your stuff, that it didn't even occur to me that I needed to do more than gather dependencies. But I see you've become a trickster. Well, I'm on to you now, buddy. lol

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

12 minutes ago, xxdita said:

@c4bl3fl4m3, as an apology for that entire back and forth, I will get the files actually corrected.

But... the files you gave me WORK. I've been using them in my cities already. They take passengers, people seem to move through them, they query just fine... what part of them DOESN'T work? *scratches my head*

 

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

12 minutes ago, xxdita said:

Next time, I'll run away screaming. 

It's okay. Just start screaming instead. Join the crowd. It's what we Mac users seem to do a lot of. Scream & pull our hair out.  

[xxdita 1,097]

On 1/21/2020 at 10:12 AM, xxdita said:

Ok so now that that has been clarified, fixing the stations only took a couple seconds each.

You will need to remove the original lot files, as I have updated the names to include MACfix, so that we can tell them apart. Or just make sure that these files load afterwards. 

In the files you've linked, I see a few *.sav files. These should never be installed. There are also extra building desc files that are unnecessary, as any Plopable lot should automatically contain the desc file. 

5 files zipped & attached. Let me know if you have any trouble with them. 

MAC station fixesxx 1-21-20.zip

Ok, this is weird. I did change the Rep to 0, not the actual TSEC. The files all show a value of 0 in Reader for the Rep count. But in PIMX, the value shows as 1. So now I don't know which way is up. @mattb325 would you mind taking a look? The files are attached to the quoted post here. 

[mattb325 28,880]

They'll work for a Mac without suffering diminished capacity issues as both REP count values are 0.

However, all of them have a TSEC value of 0, which can be problematic particularly given the capacity values of some of these lots are as low as 500.

TSEC is a penalty that slows sims down (eg: for railway stations it should be 0.069 per trip) to dissuade sims from actively seeking out a transit switch as part of their journey unless they are actually using that form of transport for the onward part of their journey.

So for the lots that have a TSEC of 0 and a capacity of 500, many sims will cut across these lots (as a TSEC of 0 makes sims want to do this) and push them over capacity. Whether that is an issue depends on the purpose of the lot in question and how large the city is that the lots are placed in.

[xxdita 1,097]

Right. All I changed was the rep count, like the directions given on a prior page. That's all that was asked for though.  

The actual capacity required will be determined by the max network capacity it can be used on and just how many functions its meant to perform. And it is best to overestimate than under. 

@c4bl3fl4m3 since they do work, we'll leave them as is. If for some reason your cities outgrow them, I'll know to boost capacities for the next ones you want fixed up. 

And thanks @mattb325! 

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

15 minutes ago, mattb325 said:

So for the lots that have a TSEC of 0 and a capacity of 500, many sims will cut across these lots (as a TSEC of 0 makes sims want to do this) and push them over capacity.

 

7 minutes ago, xxdita said:

The actual capacity required will be determined by the max network capacity it can be used on and just how many functions its meant to perform. And it is best to overestimate than under. 

Okay, I think I'm fully understanding now.

I guess my (possibly related, but maybe not) question is... I have some train station files that sit on the tracks and count any train that comes through as "using" the station, which is what often drives these stations overcapacity, because of people who pass through the station while sitting on the train. I have other train station files that don't sit on the tracks and only count the people who actually get off or on the train there. And I think some of my through files only count the people who get off the train there?

So... what's that value? And how can you make on-track stations only count the people who actually get on or off there? (Or is that "cheating"/against the point of on-track files? Because I could totally see that.) Because that's one of the major factors that makes me have to upgrade to a different station file... there's few Sims getting off there, but it's towards the edge of the city file and there's a TON of commuters going through it. I have some major train stations way out in the boonies, amongst the cornfields, because there's so many commuters going through and what I really want is a little rail stop for the people who want to commute to the farms. But I can't, because that little rail stop gets WAY overwhelmed, and then I need to put a big station in.

@xxdita I've put the little 1x1 on track stations scattered pretty liberally in the biggest city in a small region i have. It's like 180,000 sims. So far, no problems, but I have been working in the suburbs and working my way in. We'll see what happens. Thanks.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

So @xxdita, @mattb325 can we wrap this up in an easy way for the mods so they can decide where the files go? Give your recommendations?

Does fixing it for the Mac actually "break" it for Windows or not?

And even if it does, can we get both versions of the ZIP posted?

Thanks, folks.

[mattb325 28,880]

Windows doesn't show any issues with the Rep count being either 0 or 1. Mac needs it to be 0.

I'm guessing the admins would need to have the appetite to alter all of the transit enabled files across the STEX (it's a substantial undertaking, and they have other things that they might prefer to do) or just leave it like it is at the moment, where a lot is requested to be 'fixed' on an ad-hoc basis.

[Tyberius06 12,189]

Hi!

Maybe it was mentioned maybe it is not i haven't read everything. When you TE modding something with SC4Tool, the tool will change the REP value to 1. To fix it, the best if you run the building examplar through in PIM-x. Edit the building examplar name (you don't have to change the name, just double-click on it and OK) and save the examplar. PIM-x will show still the rep value as 1 (bug of the PIM-x), but it turn it back to 0 actually.

- Tyberius

[Cyclone Boom 16,875]

Thanks everyone for all the input on this subject.

 

2 hours ago, mattb325 said:

I'm guessing the admins would ... have other things that they might prefer to do ...

Yeah, we did have our hearts set on working on a completely different project than this. But, here we are.

 

Cori and I have discussed and deliberated, and here's our co-written verdict all things considered...

We absolutely understand how compatibility with custom content on the Mac game is fraught with problems. It is technically challenging, and as Windows users this isn't something which we've personally experienced. Indeed this is the way the game has been developed, from the platform Maxis made which Aspyr then used to port it over for their release. Shortcomings like the files limit also must have tripped up many players not aware how DatPacking is the solution, but even still it's an incredible inconvenience. Thankfully there has been the JDatPacker tool which is cross-compatible with being Java based, though likely that's only known about to a select few too.

Absolutely it's not fair how Mac users have all these extra steps required in order to make certain items compatible. Such as the 1/1000 bug for stations and other Civic lots (like education facilities and health care), and also the BAT nightlight incompatibility. It is unfortunate that the focus of the community hasn't been more considerate for making items as Mac compatible as they can be. However, that surely hasn't been a deliberate decision in most cases, but a by-product of what Aspyr had released.

In an ideal world, every author would've chosen to make their works usable by everyone, then taken the needed steps. These incompatibilities instead stem from a lack of awareness and knowhow, rather than people specifically deciding "Right, it's time to make this brilliant BAT which can only work on Windows systems".

Usability across platforms widens the audience who can enjoy all SC4 content to the greatest possible functionality. It of course doesn't help when dependency files are bundled inside executable installers, and this is something which @Tyberius06 has a project in the works to re-package these into regular zips. That will make them more accessible for everyone, but still it's only one part of the whole puzzle.

A possible sense of optimism might be what the new 64-bit release may bring in terms of resolving the limitations. The most recent development from the other thread stated how this is under development and was still planned for a release in due course. Perhaps this could be what improves the outlook for Mac users into the future, although there's no certainty whether the limitations would be addressed or not. And of course, that wouldn't solve it for anyone wishing to still use their current version.

 

As a way forward, we feel a three-pronged approach will serve as a suitable compromise.

For any given STEX hosted item of content:

1)  Any volunteer willing and able to develop a Mac compatible fix does so, and posts here or in a relevant consolidated index topic. The file would be attached to the post in the thread. The initial post could be updated to list all files which have been fixed, and then it'd be a way anyone could see a collection of content designed to be used for the Aspyr Mac game.

2)  A note at the bottom of the relevant STEX file is added, linking to said post, as well as copying the direct download linky for the attached file. This way the Mac peeps can have direct access in addition to the option for visiting the post which might contain more information.

This keeps it distinctly separate from the original still available under the Download button. Then instructions are provided in the linked forum post, stating which of the original files are still required (if any). Should it be viable to make everything available standalone as the Mac fix, that'd make it a simpler task for the downloader.

3)  On the file, suitable tags are added as per the ideas you suggested @c4bl3fl4m3 inside your thread on the subject. This way anyone could click the tag and be taken to a live filtered index of any other files which are also in the same classification. We think this is a great idea.

Additionally, to be fair to active content creators (who have been around within the past year), for those it'd be the courteous thing to ask permission before going ahead with editing their file for adding the Mac compatible description note. For authors who've not been online for a period of 1 year or longer, it seems a reasonable time frame to be permissible on good faith for the benefit of all Mac users. This would apply for most items on the STEX with a "do what the author would've done anyway" type approach.

Equality isn't present between Windows and Mac compatible files, and so we believe it's all about trying to make the best of what can be done. It isn't the fault of creators how there are incompatibilities, as they've done no wrong with uploading for what they believed to work. The constraints with the Mac version are a great shame, and it's a pity that those in charge of porting the game over weren't aware or able to consider these aspects. But, that's what happened sadly enough, and here as a community we can only make the most of what is both technically and realistically achievable in the current climate.

So, what we will endorse is linking in the STEX description, and allowing the tags to be the means of filtering to view those all in a dynamically updated list as described above. Also to spread awareness, it'd be possible to have a menu link added which leads to the tag index of all compatible files.

The way we feel is how the "SC4 community" is encompassing for each and every person who has an interest in the game. This includes all types of operating systems, whether Mac, Linux, Windows, or whatever. As such we're supportive of reducing the burden for those peeps who have no choice except using a poorly ported version of the game.

Now, one thing we will not do is set up an approval process for file uploads to the STEX. This is completely contrary to Dirk's original (and still current) vision of how our file exchange works. Anyone of any skill level is allowed to upload their creations without any extra hoops to jump thru.

This is our decision, and we believe such a compromise will make the current situation better than it has become.

-CB & Cori

[rsc204 21,808]

On 09/02/2020 at 7:20 AM, Cyclone Boom said:

2)  A note at the bottom of the relevant STEX file is added, linking to said post, as well as copying the direct download linky for the attached file. This way the Mac peeps can have direct access in addition to the option for visiting the post which might contain more information.

This keeps it distinctly separate from the original still available under the Download button. Then instructions are provided in the linked forum post, stating which of the original files are still required (if any). Should it be viable to make everything available standalone as the Mac fix, that'd make it a simpler task for the downloader.

Sorry to dredge this up almost a year later, but I have to strongly disagree with the idea of using patches, as @c4bl3fl4m3 stated we should just fix broken stuff, regardless of whether that affects all users or not.

To clarify, the only reason a TSEC value, set incorrectly or otherwise, would make using the content worse, would be if you changed the actual TSEC property's value, rather than the Rep count. It's important to understand that a TE lot effectively acts as a station, even if that's not why is has been TE'd to begin with. If a lot just has a simple road/street connection, the TSEC value is unimportant, since it doesn't factor into whether it works or not. The TSEC value only matters when a lot can be traversed, i.e. when a Sim can enter and subsequently exit the lot as part of a journey. Note when I say Sim in this context, that "Sim" could be a Pedestrian, Car, Bus, Train whatever, since at the simulator level, everyone is their own Train or Bus, there are no timetabled services. Where such through travel has been enabled, it is sub-optimal not to set the correct TSEC value as defined in this post by Z. Likewise having a low capacity is an even bigger potential problem. But the overall point here is that a bad TSEC setting or other modding, is simply not affected or altered by removing the more heinous incorrect Rep values, which are ultimately the cause of CTDs for Mac users. In other words, if the other settings were bad before, this process won't help, but it neither causes any harm either. One could confuse the issue too, for example I don't take a 2km detour to avoid walking through my local station, just because I'm not getting on a train. In some ways this "shortcutting" could be considered perfectly natural, it's literally a quicker route from A-B.

Honestly, the difference time-wise from simply changing a pair of 1's to 0's over properly fixing/optimising stations, is vast. SLURPing a station probably takes at least 30m for someone really experienced in what they are doing. SLURPing, is the process whereby the NAM/RTMT team would update the most common stations to our standards, and the NAM would "patch" them as necessary. But when you add in testing the stations, which we do comprehensively, it's even more time-consuming. OK, that's the gold standard, but even eyeing the figures and just updating the Capacity, TSEC values and Transit Switches is no 30 second job. So whilst it would be great to have every station optimised, that's far outside of the scope of preventing needless CTDs/incompatible content and personally my main focus here.

In short, we should aim, where possible, to instead fix affected files directly on the STEX. Adding patches and additional steps is just needlessly overcomplicated, not just in terms of fixing these problems, since it increases the workload. It also makes it less likely that a given user will have a working file, since even with big flashy banners, we can reasonably expect many not to notice anyway. Why have two sets of content floating around, one that works for most people and a patch to make it work for everyone else? When we can just have one file that does both? Of course, the nature of a legacy problem like this, means some users may have out-of-date files, but at least they'd be able to see the file was updated and find it through the "Mac Compatible" tag, assuming they were aware of the underlying issue.

[Tyberius06 12,189]

4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Sorry to dredge this up almost a year later, but I have to strongly disagree with the idea of using patches, as @c4bl3fl4m3 stated we should just fix broken stuff, regardless of whether that affects all users or not.

To clarify, the only reason a TSEC value, set incorrectly or otherwise, would make using the content worse, would be if you changed the actual TSEC property's value, rather than the Rep count. It's important to understand that a TE lot effectively acts as a station, even if that's not why is has been TE'd to begin with. If a lot just has a simple road/street connection, the TSEC value is unimportant, since it doesn't factor into whether it works or not. The TSEC value only matters when a lot can be traversed, i.e. when a Sim can enter and subsequently exit the lot as part of a journey. Note when I say Sim in this context, that "Sim" could be a Pedestrian, Car, Bus, Train whatever, since at the simulator level, everyone is their own Train or Bus, there are no timetabled services. Where such through travel has been enabled, it is sub-optimal not to set the correct TSEC value as defined in this post by Z. Likewise having a low capacity is an even bigger potential problem. But the overall point here is that a bad TSEC setting or other modding, is simply not affected or altered by removing the more heinous incorrect Rep values, which are ultimately the cause of CTDs for Mac users. In other words, if the other settings were bad before, this process won't help, but it neither causes any harm either. One could confuse the issue too, for example I don't take a 2km detour to avoid walking through my local station, just because I'm not getting on a train. In some ways this "shortcutting" could be considered perfectly natural, it's literally a quicker route from A-B.

Honestly, the difference time-wise from simply changing a pair of 1's to 0's over properly fixing/optimising stations, is vast. SLURPing a station probably takes at least 30m for someone really experienced in what they are doing. SLURPing, is the process whereby the NAM/RTMT team would update the most common stations to our standards, and the NAM would "patch" them as necessary. But when you add in testing the stations, which we do comprehensively, it's even more time-consuming. OK, that's the gold standard, but even eyeing the figures and just updating the Capacity, TSEC values and Transit Switches is no 30 second job. So whilst it would be great to have every station optimised, that's far outside of the scope of preventing needless CTDs/incompatible content and personally my main focus here.

In short, we should aim, where possible, to instead fix affected files directly on the STEX. Adding patches and additional steps is just needlessly overcomplicated, not just in terms of fixing these problems, since it increases the workload. It also makes it less likely that a given user will have a working file, since even with big flashy banners, we can reasonably expect many not to notice anyway. Why have two sets of content floating around, one that works for most people and a patch to make it work for everyone else? When we can just have one file that does both? Of course, the nature of a legacy problem like this, means some users may have out-of-date files, but at least they'd be able to see the file was updated and find it through the "Mac Compatible" tag, assuming they were aware of the underlying issue.

Hm... I see, that the previous post from CB was during last winter (february) while I was on holiday (my last real holiday), I haven't read through that post, although reading @rsc204's response, I have to agree with him. Attached patches by default are not a good thing (ok there are ongoing patch works, like patching a bunch of PEG files, thanks, MAN ( @rsc204), that will save a bunch of time), specially that people would just get confused anyway. With the legacy contents, or in case when a creator non-responsive a straight update/replacement should be perfect. If someone had problem with a file, then they always can check back and check if there is a newer version. For new players it's not even a problem. Most of the cases we are talking about decade old or older stuffs... Most of Tonkso's station lots are not just outdated, but conflicting with the current Mac systems. 70-80 percent of the TE lots on LEX (before 2013, so during the BSC era) are also have the same issue, but those probably will be fixed during the Project ZIP. On my end I marked all those ones which needs to be updated. And these are just the top of the iceberg. The WMP and Polska stuffs also will be slowly updated and fixed, and there is a high chance that Paeng's related creations will get the treatment. 

The problem as I see, that there isn't a clear guideline for uploaders what they need to check, specially in the case of newbees. 4,5 years ago I didn't have clear modding guidelines either, and checking back just the Heretic Seaports, it has some pretty nice flaws. Although it's kind of a catch-22, becuase it can intimidate folks to upload stuffs thinking it's too much of a hassle, also it requires some understanding what you are doing and why. It's specially true with the stations. 

But regarding these post TE fixes, I believe the best way if something comes up and gets a fix then it should be a direct replacement instead of an addtiional patch. This is how I dealt with the APTX Tokio Central Station just a few days ago. 

- Tyberius

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

8 hours ago, rsc204 said:

In short, we should aim, where possible, to instead fix affected files directly on the STEX.

2 hours ago, Tyberius06 said:

... reading @rsc204's response, I have to agree with him.

That works for us. You two will know way better than CB or me how it is best to fix these. (I believe that old post was when we felt it best to not alter old content.)

-Cori & CB

[kaimai 1,042]

Hi all,

I genuinely have no idea if anyone still plays SC4 (let alone on Mac) so this may not be something anyone else finds useful. But:

I have the Steam version of the game and, at some point during the 10 years when I stopped playing it, it automatically updated to the 64-bit version, and etc. Once I went back to playing it and started downloading custom content, I obviously ran into numerous files that didn't work.

A few days ago, however, I came across this topic and realised this was a known issue and, in most cases, very easy to fix; all I had to do was download the reader from SC4E, run it via wine and change a few exemplars. I have absolutely no technical knowledge of any kind, but the various explanations posted here were clear and informative enough that that didn't matter. So I did that with a number of files and can confirm they work on my computer now at least (Mac OS 11.7.6, 3.6GHz Intel, I will never upgrade to ARM, honestly I never would have upgraded from 10.14 if my computer hadn't broken. I hate Apple. End of complaint)

Basically: does anyone want any of these fixed lots? (There's about 24 buildings / 52 .SC4Lot files I could successfully get working; one, so far, that I couldn't.) Are the creators still around? What are the intellectual property guidelines involved? Etc.

Thanks in advance if anyone sees this 🙏

[matias93 7,535]

@Tyberius06 and @nos.17 would be the people to talk with, and in general, quality-of-life fixes that otherwise preserve the existing files as they are, are considered fair game and simply posted as updated versions of the older files.