Natural Growth Philosophies / Mindsets

[CorinaMarie 29,892]

1 minute ago, Daeris said:

Oh wow, really!?

Yes, really. Even really really.

Specifically this pic is as good as the best I've posted in there and better than the bulk of my older pics.

3 hours ago, Daeris said:

 

[Cyclone Boom 17,031]

8 minutes ago, Daeris said:

Thanks CB (I hope you don't mind me calling you that... I think I picked it up from Cori, lol. If you do mind, no worries just let me know)!

CB is absolutely fine with me!

[Naomi57 2,985]

48 minutes ago, Daeris said:

The hay bales and little reed grass lookin' guys are from RRP Pasture Flora: https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1886 (special thanks to @The British Sausage for the recommendations).

I was admiring those hay bales in your screenshot, amongst other things, so you've just convinced me to increase priority to install the RRP Pasture Flora soon.  Cori and CB can confirm how painfully slow I am to take up new mods, so you can consider that an achievement, too!  

You've got quite a talent for the aesthetic touch, @Daeris.  Well done!

4 hours ago, Daeris said:

^Look how cool this little scene looks with the round hay bales!

This pic really captures the country feel!

27 minutes ago, Daeris said:

East of Oldport, the wagon trail leads to Slyside Lake (probably my favorite layout I've created thus far):

[The British Sausage 5,449]

11 hours ago, Daeris said:

Thanks so much! (now sneaks off to go snag all these really cool mods...)

Oh? Never heard of this lil trick. I'll have to search forums to learn said secrets (it does truly look really good).

 

There's got to be a tutorial somewhere on this site but the idea is to use the NAM and elevated railway pieces to create a street/road/avenue tile which doesn't end in a stub or cul-de-sac. I have used this A LOT to connect the roads to car parks or street driveways in the building's lot (tile area it comes in).

[Naomi57 2,985]

1 hour ago, The British Sausage said:

12 hours ago, Daeris said:

Thanks so much! (now sneaks off to go snag all these really cool mods...)

Oh? Never heard of this lil trick. I'll have to search forums to learn said secrets (it does truly look really good).

 

There's got to be a tutorial somewhere on this site but the idea is to use the NAM and elevated railway pieces to create a street/road/avenue tile which doesn't end in a stub or cul-de-sac. I have used this A LOT to connect the roads to car parks or street driveways in the building's lot (tile area it comes in).

Ahhh, I didn't clue until you said elevated railway pieces.  It has to do with the way they explode, doesn't it!

The Explosive Tramway Construction Technique

Here's one approach using explosive Tram-on-Street pieces, using NAM 36.  The technique depends on a linked piece, which then explodes part of the second piece when using the bulldozer.  Hopefully it explodes in similar ways in future NAM versions.    Click and arrow to zoom in and compare the images.

1. Lay a  Tram-on-Street - straight  piece, and then tab forward to lay a  Tram-on-Street clover junction  piece adjacent, with tram line linked.
   
    
2. Bulldoze just that one  Tram-on-Street - straight  piece.
   
    
3. ... and you're automatically left with a 1x1 Street junction, with ALL of the tram rails exploded!  
   
    
4. Press  R key  for the Road tool, and draw a Road through the 1x1 Street junction.
   
    
5. All done, driveways on either side of the road, without needing the NAM  Disconnector .  
   

Mind you, using the NAM  Disconnector  is an easier technique, but with this explosive technique you don't have to touch any tiles outside the 1x5 tiles of Road you're working on.  If you've already laid fences and MMPs, I can imagine not damaging anything off the road is a key benefit.  

You can use the 1x2  Tram-on-Street junction - orthogonal and diagonal  piece to achieve a similar result, but with a driveway on just one side.

Should work with SAM Street styles, too, with perhaps just a wee little bit more fiddling.  It's also a benefit for connecting driveways up to lots ... without destroying the lot in the process!      Oooh, I'm gonna enjoy playing with this and marking the lots Historical.  

Thank you, @The British Sausage, though I knew exactly what you meant when I saw your latest comment just now, I would not have twigged if you hadn't said it.

[SIM-ple Jack 17,450]

9 hours ago, Cyclone Boom said:

Maybe it's worth asking @SIM-ple Jack jack about that since he uses the Tweaker tool.

It wont be worth much, as I've yet to be able to load custom content into the program, just Maxis stuff. As far as using it, it's fairly straightforward, not much more difficult than LEProp or LotEditor. Maybe it's not intended for custom stuff.

[Daeris 1,116]

Hey everyone, just wanted to update this thread with another really cool thread @SIM-ple Jack made recently: 

 

 

Take a gander, because it showcases a ton of assets that will fit very well with the early days of anyone following the Natural Growth method (and going for that extra western feel).

For example, take a look at these fabulous assets from @WolfZe: 

 

[BartonThinks 3,416]

One thing to keep in mind for those WZ River Junction buildings -- they'll be a lot larger than other buildings. WZ intentionally scaled them much larger than other in-game buildings as I believe they were intended as a standalone set.

That said, if you're just using them for your own personal use, you can always scale them down using the Model Tweaker program and then re-lot them. I found they fit in well with other buildings when scaled down to 2/3 size.

[Daeris 1,116]

2 minutes ago, BartonThinks said:

That said, if you're just using them for your own personal use, you can always scale them down using the Model Tweaker program and then re-lot them. I found they fit in well with other buildings when scaled down to 2/3 size.

I'm mostly interested in using the doc's office, sheriff, firehouse, and school (so I don't need to use the modern looking standard Maxis assets before my towns seem ready for modern buildings like that). However, this might be a good project for me. Thanks for the idea.

[SIM-ple Jack 17,450]

35 minutes ago, Daeris said:

I'm mostly interested in using the doc's office, sheriff, firehouse, and school (so I don't need to use the modern looking standard Maxis assets before my towns seem ready for modern buildings like that). However, this might be a good project for me. Thanks for the idea.

There's also a Small Town W2W set, I forget who made it(I think onlyplace), that works with WZ's set. Also check out Lagos Slum Houses. More S. American, but no modern props, and the textures are excellent on them. They look properly rickety and fit WZ's scale.

The Wild West didn't start getting gentrified till the 1880's, when people started building "Painted Ladies" like the houses in San Francisco and New Orleans. It was still pretty wild up till the 1950's and early 60's. Some people didn't even have indoor plumbing until then. Good movies to watch concerning the evolution of the West: Hud, The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean and The Last Picture Show.. They'll give you a rough idea how things were laid out back then.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,107]

If I am allowed to butt into the discussion as well, I'd like to share my natural-growth... beliefs?

First of all, I agree with @Daeris' initial post which stipulates that water bodies tend to be the magnet for "pioneers". This is due to two reasons, the most obvious one being access to drinking water and a mean to grow food.

The second reason, applicable especially to islands and coastal/littoral areas, is the fact that new colonists who arrive on ships cannot be picky as far as their new settlement location is concerned. They rarely venture far into land to find that perfect spot for where to settle. Therefore, all new arrivals will usually start off by building villages close to the sea or ocean shore. It's safer, easier and cheaper.

The rest is pretty simple. Early town and cities are built out of necessity, according to what is most needed at a time. This is why I like to not design at all when starting off.

Older cities, on the other hand, tend to turn the status quo around and are built according to the common sense. As cities mature, the citizens realize that they don't necessarily like to live where they do and the city is being reshuffled. Residential areas become more orderly, concentrated and arranged in "bedding" areas. With that, parks start to appear. Sometimes even in areas that were previously industrial (gentrification much?) The industry is left where it was, or is pushed away from homes.

The same goes for commerce, which becomes more concentrated and easier to navigate. This way, a statistical "Kowalski" doesn't have to take a 3-mile ride if he wants to visit a baker after shopping for electronics.

As time goes by and traffic, air pollution and greenhouse effect start to take their toll, the cities become even more concentrated, in an attempt to become sustainable. A buzz-word in the modern urban science.

 

[Daeris 1,116]

31 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

If I am allowed to butt into the discussion as well, I'd like to share my natural-growth... beliefs?

By all means! No allowance needed, your insights and thoughts are welcome and appreciated. 

 

33 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

Early town and cities are built out of necessity...

33 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

Older cities, on the other hand, tend to turn the status quo around and are built according to the common sense.

34 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

As time goes by and traffic, air pollution and greenhouse effect start to take their toll, the cities become even more concentrated...

You bring up some great points to help myself (and hopefully others) continue to make logical and realistic decisions with how they develop their early cities, and then further how to shift gears for mid-tier cities and larger cities.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,107]

@Daeris - If you are interested in the natural and realistic city growth, stay tuned to my new "series" in the SC300 section.

This approach is equally valid for both games, though I admit it might be extremely problematic to use in SC4. A lot of tweaking and changing... But this is how I imagine a realistic, history-based way to enhance one's experience of SimCity.

[Morgan R 156]

It may go a bit beyond "natural growth philosophies", but for a few years now, I have been working on a guide to building out cities in-game in a historically-realistic fashion (based on my various studies in the field, and research I have been doing for my long-dreamed-of region). Not quite a step-by-step tutorial---as much of this thread has been---but an organized guide to developmental trends and phases to consider to make a city look like it grew up naturally over 200+ years (with perhaps visuals). Given its more encyclopedic ambition, It would likely be a bit long and overly detailed for this thread, however. Any suggestions on where, how, or what might be the best way to share such a project on Simtropolis?

But pending the completion of the drafts, I can give a rough outline of what I am working on here, if it is sufficiently on-topic and folks are interested. (Sadly, I have not yet been able to build a new, more powerful machine to host my principles in-game, however, and have merely spent the last few years getting my plugins folder ready).

[CorinaMarie 29,892]

9 minutes ago, Morgan R said:

Any suggestions on where, how, or what might be the best way to share such a project on Simtropolis?

This sounds like it'll have a lot involved so I believe a new topic in this same forum would be a good way to go.

[Daeris 1,116]

Hello everyone, I have started up my inaugural city journal where I will practice many of the things we've discussed in this thread. I'm also planning to introduce and toy around with a fog-of-war mechanic, and make the CJ interactive to some degree.

Take a look and please continue to share your advice: 

 

Of course, keep sharing all that good stuff here too! 

Thank you!

[rob_mtl 435]

Hey thought I'd pop into this thread for a bit. I recently reinstalled SPAM and have been doing experiments for eventually encircling Honestville with agricultural areas. In the spirit of natural growth, I had originally intended to cover each tile with farms and then have the city expand outwards, eating up the farmland.

SC4's limited agriculture demand cap killed that idea so I shelved the farms at the time.

Does anyone have a good mod solution to "force" agricultural demand in an already developed region? I'm not adverse to any kind of cheating or census manipulation type stuff at this point. I'm finding with SPAM I still can't get more than 13000 or so farm jobs in any given tile.

 

Oh and by the way @Daeris, love the new city journal  

[Matrim Cauthon 344]

20 minutes ago, rob_mtl said:

Does anyone have a good mod solution to "force" agricultural demand in an already developed region?

The Irrigation ditch set raises Agri caps https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2249

As does the 2x2 Census Repository Vault in this pack(by 30k) https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1831 

I've never tried restoring I-Ag demand on a pre-SPAM map, but I have used these to restart I-Ag demand while using SPAM.

[Kloudkicker 4,565]

18 minutes ago, rob_mtl said:

Does anyone have a good mod solution to "force" agricultural demand in an already developed region?

This mod has one file that's for agricultural that can be used separately. Apparently It will remove the I-R cap completely. But, I have not tested this mod yet. Haven't started on farms myself but plan on it soon.

Placing and access the Census Repository as @Matrim Cauthon mentioned. It is a great way to get detailed info on all the caps and demand in the current city and the region. A must have, IMO.

 

[rsc204 21,866]

7 hours ago, rob_mtl said:

Does anyone have a good mod solution to "force" agricultural demand in an already developed region? I'm not adverse to any kind of cheating or census manipulation type stuff at this point. I'm finding with SPAM I still can't get more than 13000 or so farm jobs in any given tile.

If your issue is related to I-AG caps, sure those lots mentioned above will alleviate the issue.

But if you allow other Industrial and CO to develop in the same city, the game is designed to kill off all I-AG demand. Even with SPAM, this still happens and the only true solution is to build your farms, long before you build out a developed city.

[Propfam 2,305]

7 hours ago, Kloudkicker said:

This mod has one file that's for agricultural that can be used separately. Apparently It will remove the I-R cap completely. But, I have not tested this mod yet. Haven't started on farms myself but plan on it soon.

Placing and access the Census Repository as @Matrim Cauthon mentioned. It is a great way to get detailed info on all the caps and demand in the current city and the region. A must have, IMO.

 

Let me know if my mod functions well.

[CorinaMarie 29,892]

1 hour ago, chfzdn said:

Let me know if my mod functions well.

I tested your I-R Cap Lifter in a city tile with 104k population, 68k commercial, and 7.7k industrial. Agricultural was at dead zero demand to start with. Once plopping the I-R Cap Lifter Lot and running a wee bit of time, the demand increased to 6000 (vanilla graph) and then allowed an agriculture zoned area to grow a farm. (That's all I've tested as I've not reached any other cap limits.)

The Cap Lifter mod may be exactly what you are looking for, @rob_mtl.

[rob_mtl 435]

@CorinaMarie thanks for testing that out!

I have always found the agriculture thing to be a major impediment to natural growth. I generally like to build large cities and have always wanted to have, say, 40-60% of the land around them be dominated by farms, but the game engine makes that incredibly inconvenient to achieve. You end up having to build cities "in reverse", starting by zoning the entire region with agriculture and then expanding the central city afterwards.

More importantly, once you start your industrial/commercial centres, you're stuck with whatever farms you got built beforehand, meaning that any dezoning of farmland will be permanent.

Another issue I'm struggling with is the growth stages on the functional seaports. You have to artificially prevent freight from leaving a tile by road or rail to get the seaports to their maximum growth stage. I may look into some more "decorative" ploppable seaports in the near future. I guess my overall idea is I'd like to set things up so that I can zone and develop realistically without having to account for / fight with the artificial restrictions imposed by the engine.

I'll run some tests soon!

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

On 1/11/2021 at 7:42 AM, rob_mtl said:

I'm struggling with is the growth stages on the functional seaports

You know about the perils of competing seaport controllers right? It sounds like you got the BSC Seaports mod, which is excellent. Just don't get any other seaports (e.g. PEG Ports) unless you are very sure you understand the possible conflicts and how to avoid them. Do it wrong and you can corrupt an entire city tile such that it must be deleted (reset).

[Naomi57 2,985]

Back to the subject of real-world natural growth.  While there is broad awareness of the move from subsistence farming, to established land owner farming families, farm workers, storehouses, ship building, ports, trade, monetary exchange, canals, and a bourgeoisie merchant class, the next step beyond that is a little more mysterious ... the growth of cities, the beginnings of industry, and the earliest domestic mass markets.

         

I say "mysterious", because our primary appreciation of the industrial revolution is it's latter artefacts, enormous machines, mass production, mass migration to cities, railroads.  Truly prodigious growth potential could not be accomplished, until all the ingredients for the new economic structures were obtained.  While exploration has many motivations, sustained investment is about obtaining resources, whether that meant war, exploitation, or the independent quest of fortune.

Before a national economy could fulfil industrial growth, natural resources on large scale needed to be discovered, or imported.  Some of those resources are a little surprising, and I just watched a video on one of them (linked below) ... guano!  

"Peruvian guano has become so desirable an article to the agricultural interest of the United States
that it is the duty of the Government to employ all the means properly in its power for the purpose
of causing that article to be imported into the country at a reasonable price."
— 13th US President Millard Fillmore, in his 1850 State of the Union address

https://americanhistory.si.edu/norie-atlas/guano-islands-act

 

Quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9KFkBvJcR4

How the U.S. Snagged All These Islands | Johnny Harris (16 minutes)
How bird poop expanded the borders of the United States

 

Quote

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/MapJournal/index.html?appid=601f0d2e66d345e4bbecbf81b6bb76d3
Features of Sombrero Island

... the 1880 plan depicted below, ... gives a sense of the island from two decades earlier when Wood and Grant began mining its guano. The map shows road networks, buildings and structures, as well as the numerous quarries dotting the island. The map is intended to provide a general character of the island whereby some of the personal stories associated with it are detailed in the following sections.

Some of the key features include:

• A lighthouse to aid ships in navigation
• A flagstaff, which announced to sailors the nation controlling the island
• Boat buoys to mark navigational points or dangerous reefs to be avoided
• A superintendent's house, where Thomas Corfield, a mining engineer from Cornwall, England, lived.
• Numerous cisterns for harvesting and storing rainwater
• An overseer's room and barracks for workers
• A carpenter's shop, as well as a lighthouse and paint store
• Numerous sunken and surface quarries including, the Mixed Rock Quarry, the North Quarry, Daniels Red Quarry, Pigeon Quarry and Ladys Quarry, and Prickly Pear Quarry
• A powder magazine on the south end and a dynamite magazine on the north end for storing explosives used for blasting
• Graves for burying workers who died on the island
• A stable to board animals, such as mules used for moving materials across the island
• Numerous features for processing and transportation including, a phosphate refinery, a weigh bridge for measuring the materials and a gangway for transporting them to the cranes and derrick where they could then be lowered to the shipping cove
• A site where divers worked, possibly to harvest sea creatures either for sustenance or as specimens to send to the Smithsonian Institution

  Map of Sombrero Island, made in about 1880 for superintendent Thomas Corfield.

[Propfam 2,305]

Ah yes, Johnny Harris. By the way, Vox Border is cancelled but mine isn't. I'll show you my border.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

12 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

the next step beyond that is a little more mysterious ... the growth of cities, the beginnings of industry, and the earliest domestic mass markets.

In general, agriculture had to become more productive in order to feed cities. Therefore, every agricultural breakthrough (horse-collar, seed-drill etc) contributed toward the food surplus that could support people who didn't grow their own food (i.e. people living in cities rather than on farms).

The industrial revolution (the rise of low-power and cottage-industry factories) came later, driven by water wheels. Mass production (high-powered, large scale factories) came later still, powered by steam.

If I understand SC4, it starts late in the steam era, so it's driven by steam-ship enabled immigration and steam-tractor improvements to agricultural productivity. By the time you rise to high-tech ED levels, you're looking at modern fertilizers, pesticides, irrigation, genetic modification etc multiplying farm productivity many times again over just 100 years ago. Thus, in the time span of this game, the American landscape goes from 90% farmers to 2% (we crossed the 50% threshold near the turn of the 20th C) while increasing meat in American's diets, pouring vast tonnages into ethanol production, and still exporting a surplus to the rest of the world.

So when you stare with awe at a modern shining city, thank a farmer.

[rob_mtl 435]

On 2021-01-12 at 2:12 PM, jeffryfisher said:

You know about the perils of competing seaport controllers right? It sounds like you got the BSC Seaports mod, which is excellent. Just don't get any other seaports (e.g. PEG Ports) unless you are very sure you understand the possible conflicts and how to avoid them. Do it wrong and you can corrupt an entire city tile such that it must be deleted (reset).

I only have BSC Seaports, so no worries there.

[rob_mtl 435]

3 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

In general, agriculture had to become more productive in order to feed cities. Therefore, every agricultural breakthrough (horse-collar, seed-drill etc) contributed toward the food surplus that could support people who didn't grow their own food (i.e. people living in cities rather than on farms).

16 hours ago, Naomi57 said:

Back to the subject of real-world natural growth.  While there is broad awareness of the move from subsistence farming, to established land owner farming families, farm workers, storehouses, ship building, ports, trade, monetary exchange, canals, and a bourgeoisie merchant class, the next step beyond that is a little more mysterious ... the growth of cities, the beginnings of industry, and the earliest domestic mass markets.

WARNING: Somewhat pedantic wall-of-text incoming!

From my understanding, the most impactful developments in European agriculture occurred in the late medieval period. Innovations such as better horse harnesses and the shift from two field to three field crop rotation in the 14th and 15th centuries really transitioned Europe from a subsistence situation (with cyclical shortages and resultant famine) to a surplus and accumulation situation. This transition coincided with the major bubonic plague epidemics which both reduced the number of mouths to feed and created a labour shortage for agricultural workers. These factors became a driving force behind the need for more efficient techniques. Increasing surpluses lead to a larger leisure class, urbanization, and the Enlightenment (17th-18th century) - which is this context can be seen as a cultural shift towards valuing science and innovation over religious dogma and tradition. This video series has a great overview of these changes!

Many scholars now resist the term "industrial revolution", because it implies that fundamental changes to society occurred in a short, concentrated period. A more realistic view is that late 18th and 19th century industrialization was the culmination of a process that started much earlier, and occurred over several centuries.

If you're looking at the period from, say, 1770 to 1914, the first countries to industrialize were Great Britain, followed by Belgium because of an abundance of coal in those two countries (among other factors). Over the next half century this intense industrialization also occurred in France, the German states, the Austrian Empire, Scandinavia and the Netherlands.

American industrialization comes a bit later, especially in the South because of the slave plantation economy. The Civil War also delayed larger scale industrialization, just as the French Revolution had done for Continental Europe in the late 18th century.

In terms of cities, the impacts of this period are quite dramatic. For the entire 19th century, the growth and sheer size of London dwarfed any other city on the planet (and with time, any city in history). Beijing and Paris were a distant 2nd and 3rd. More interestingly though were the changes to the urban social fabric. Paris, which had been the largest European city of the 18th century, had, during that time period, a very mixed population in terms of social class. The bourgeoisie, lower aristocracy, urban peasantry and clergy all lived in close quarters in relative harmony--population growth was significant, but not explosive. Industrialization there and in London brought in masses of rural peasants, as well as pollution. The upper crust's response was to call for increasing segregation of urban spaces. The upper and middle classes moved to the formerly rural fringe of large cities and the elite pushed for standardized working class neighbourhoods. It likely would have been better to be poor in London in 1750 than in 1850.

I had a feminist urban planning professor in my undergrad who suggested that 19th century industrialization was also a net negative for women, who, in agricultural society had actively participated in the labour force. The industrial city was segregated not just in terms of class, but also in terms of the increasingly separate domestic and public spheres. Factory work was a male space, with women somewhat more confined to the home. Longer distance transportation actually worsened this segregation, as tramways (and later subways and cars) allowed for a larger spatial segregation between these gendered and classed areas.

I could go on and on but I probably shouldn't   It's one of the topics that interests me the most in urban planning.

[Propfam 2,305]

And then you got (in economic terms) the 2nd Industrial Revolution, the 3rd Industrial Revolution, and the 4th Industrial Revolution. My cities haven't gone into the Industry 4.0 since no data center is built.