[Decision] SC4, Skylines, SC2013, in order

[huzman 445]

Re-arranging the order of appearance.

@Tarkus mentioned in the Folders Discussion " Also, consider the absurdity of wanting to make the SC4 community more like the SC2013 community (which is basically dead, and has been for a couple years now)."

It's high time to reorder the appearance of the different forums: it should be 1st., SC4, 2nd., Skylines and 3rd., SC2013, me thinks.
After all, SC4 is the main forum, all others, and I mean ALL, come second by along shot.
Why, just convenience in surfing around. I for one, I never go to SC2013, and just once to Skylines. So it's a bit of a drag to scroll down, and down, and... just to get to where I want to go.

In fact, from my experience, SC3000 should be promoted to second place, but that's my personal preferences. Anyway this rant should give an idea.

[Tarkus 6,933]

The placement of C:S and SC2013 on top made sense initially, in terms of the site's goals.  ST saw an opportunity to grow and attract interest from the game developers by embracing the new titles.  For awhile, particularly leading up to the actual release of both games, those boards were indeed quite active.  ST pretty much was the place to discuss SC2013, and it remained fairly lively in there through 2014, but hit a brick wall beginning in 2015, after EA closed down the Maxis studio in Emeryville and C:S was released. 

C:S fell off substantially after that game was released, as CO/Paradox dumped all their resources into commercially-owned discussion forums where they had more control--Steam, Paradox Forums, and Reddit.  The fact that they also went all-in on using Steam Workshop effectively prevented the STEX (or any other fansite exchange) from gaining even the slightest toehold against an in-game integrated behemoth.

There is still C:S discussion here, to a much greater extent than SC2013, though a lot of that traffic is from people who previously frequented ST for other games (SC4 and SC2013, primarily).  The one thing that ST does have going for it on the C:S end is that it is one of the few places where one can find traditional city journals for that game, which seem to be a forgotten medium elsewhere, but it's a small niche in the wider community for that game.

The General Discussion boards for each game are a fairly solid indicator of interest in each game here, and are likely to have activity from more casual players on display.  We're just now into November 2017, so if we look back to the beginning of October, here's how many threads in each game's general board have had posts in the past month.  I'll throw in SC3000 and Cities (X)XL for grins, too.

• Cities: Skylines General Discussion - 6 threads
• SimCity (2013) General Discussion - 1 thread (and it is titled "Is SimCity dead?")
• SimCity 4 General Discussion - 42 threads
• SimCity 3000 General Discussion - 1 thread
• Cities XXL General Discussion - 0 threads

Based on this order, the order is (1) SC4 >> (2) C:S > (3 - tie) SC2013 = SC3000 > (5) CXXL.

Going by the date of the most recent post on the last thread on the first page of each General Discussion board, here are the results:

• Cities: Skylines General Discussion - August 16, 2017
• SimCity (2013) General Discussion - November 25, 2016
• SimCity 4 General Discussion - October 16, 2017
• SimCity 3000 General Discussion - June 4th, 2017
• Cities XXL General Discussion - June 29, 2014 (!)

Here, the order is (1) SC4 > (2) C:S > (3) SC3000 > (4) SC2013 > > (5) CXXL

If we take a look at the more specific boards for each game, here's what we get (the date of the most recent post on the last thread--excluding stickies--on the first page of each board is shown in parentheses):

General City Showcase Threads (i.e. "Show Us" threads)

• Cities: Skylines Showcase - 10 threads (April 9, 2017)
• SimCity (2013) Showcase - 0 threads (November 22, 2014) (most recent post was September 29th, just missed cutoff)
• SC4 Showcase - 26 threads (October 9, 2017)

Neither SC3000 nor CXXL has a general showcase board.  This leaves us with (1) SC4 > (2) C:S > (3) SC2013

City Journals (forums only, dedicated CJ section isn't easily sortable by game)

• Cities: Skylines City Journals - 21 threads (August 18, 2017)
• SimCity (2013) City Journals - 0 threads (November 14, 2014) (most recent post was January 9, 2016)
• SC4 City Journals - 3 threads (September 22, 2016)
• Cities XXL City Journals - 0 threads (December 9, 2011) (most recent post was August 7, 2015)

SC3000 does not have a CJ section in the forum.  Here, on the forum format, we actually see an order of (1) C:S >> (2) SC4 > (3) SC2013 > (4) CXXL.  Based on my casual observation, the SC4 CJ authors tend to favor the CJ section and the C:S authors favor the forums, so more research would be needed on the CJ section's breakdown to get an accurate picture.  This finding does support the idea that ST's niche in the C:S world is the traditional city journal, however.

Modding Forums

• Cities: Skylines Modding - Open Discussion - 42 threads (October 22, 2017)
• SimCity (2013) Modding - Open Discussion - 1 thread (September 8, 2016)
• Cities XXL Custom Content Creation - 0 threads (August 13, 2012) (most recent post was February 21, 2017)

The modding forums for the above games are "catch-all" for all content development, whereas SC4 is split into several areas.

• SC4 Custom Content - 13 threads (August 24, 2017)
• Mapping Community Room - 1 thread (June 24, 2014)
• Lot Editor and Plugin Manager - 8 threads (June 5, 2017)
• SC4 BAT - Open Discussion - 14 threads (August 14, 2017)
• HKABT - 0 threads (September 4, 2010) (most recent post was August 10, 2017)
• NYBT - 0 threads (February 19, 2013) (most recent post was July 22, 2017)
• SimPeg Night Owls - 0 threads (May 31, 2010) (most recent post was August 4, 2015)
• SimMars - 0 threads (February 20, 2012) (most recent post was September 3, 2017)
• (not counting the BATting school)
• SC4 Modding - Open Discussion - 16 threads (September 20, 2017)
• NAM & Transit Networks - 8 threads (July 4, 2017)
• TOTAL SC4 Content/Modding - 60 threads

SC3000, again, does not have a separate modding area.

After that summation on the SC4 side, we get (1) SC4 > (2) C:S >> (3) SC2013 > (4) CXXL.  It's also interesting, on the SC4 side, to notice that the one-time domination of "BAT Teams" has almost completely collapsed, giving way to "indie BATters" (as Shadow Assassin once called them).  This is a trend we have noticed at SC4D as well.

There are probably more comparisons one could do, such as diving into actual post count in each area (which would produce really accurate results), but that would require going into each thread and actually counting all the posts since October 1.

If we total these areas up, it looks to me as though SC4 has at least some edge on C:S in the activity levels here at Simtropolis, but SC2013 has completely dropped off the radar.  (And CXXL is even more dead--hence its relegation to a subforum of an off-topic board.)  Getting to the point of SC3000, it's not anywhere near SC4 or C:S levels of activity, and remains a small niche, but is about on par with SC2013 and the CXXL franchise here--not bad for an almost 19-year-old game.

-Tarkus

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

Whoa, @Tarkus! That is an extremely detailed analysis. Thanks.

@huzman How would you feel about making this a poll? And if so, maybe have these three choices:

• SC4 Forums should be moved to the top above CSL.
• SC4 Forums should be moved to just under CSL.
• SC4 Forums should stay right where they are.

[Haljackey 17,398]

Don't forget that you can minimize forums as well, mine looks like:

[huzman 445]

3 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

Whoa, @Tarkus! That is an extremely detailed analysis. Thanks.

@huzman How would you feel about making this a poll? And if so, maybe have these three choices:

@CorinaMarie took the words out my mouth. Making a Poll? I'm all for it. Maybe expanding it a little bit? Like, where do folks go to? What's the first thread of a given forum. Or maybe that's complicating  things. One thing tho: I ain't smart enough to know to make them poll things. But be my guest.

@Tarkus That's a great insight about who is who. Thanks a lot.

@Haljackey Well, what about that. That's pretty good trick.

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

6 minutes ago, huzman said:

But be my guest.

I've added a poll and I've set the votes to be anonymous.

 

7 minutes ago, huzman said:

Maybe expanding it a little bit? Like, where do folks go to? What's the first thread of a given forum. Or maybe that's complicating  things.

I believe that would complicate things.

[huzman 445]

4 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

I've added a poll and I've set the votes to be anonymous.

That was quick. Great and Thanks.
Yeah, let's not complicate things.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

I think it made sense for the new games to be put at the top, but we've had enough time for each game to establish its own popularity, and it's clear that SC2013 is dead. I'm fine with either CSL or SC4 being at the top, but SC2013 imo should be moved down. 

I would also be in favor of consolidating subforums within each game into a smaller number of logical subforums, in order to make each one more vibrant. 

[Fantozzi 4,068]

Like the books in my bookshelf, I think, order is good for orientation. Even if the mind - violated by school and education - often thinks all things have to be in order (even friends: very best friend, best friend, good friends, common friends) and so order becomes an instrument of discipline (law and order) - one shouldn't forget order is an instrument to help organisation, not to dictate organisation. There's no need to be afraid of chaos. The fear of chaos is some kind of occultism (chaos is associated with the devil).

About how to order/sort things it's still Aristotle's logic (chapter about definitions: genus, species and difference) the best reading to get a quick instruction. Imho.

So first question would be - why you need to sort things on the forum starting page.

Me, being a member since 2009, I don't need an order - I'll find my stuff anyway. Also with the many new functions to filter content - which isn't much else than giving things an order by individual criteria - the visible order on the forum's start page seems not really functional to me. Once it had a function - but with time passing it became functionally obsolete as I don't access the forums most of the time via the overview but f.e. by listing the last activities.

But ...

... it seems the front page of the forums is something like the shelf in a supermarket. So the question is: how should this shelf look like. It may be important for people first time visting like for their eyes wandering along the goods shelf.

And so the questions seems to be - where to place the products so they catch peoples eyes. To attract them.

Well it is plausible to always place your newest product on top. You won't place your best seller on top - because it sells already it doesn't need the extra advertising instead you would like to promote the new stuff by placing it quite in front of the customers eyes. So you would use the front page not for function (the functions are somewhere else) but to attract people. Also mostly it works this way - you place your newest product on top - because it is the most prominent. There are reviews in the journals and much discussion outside in the world and spots on TV - so there is a global interest for the newest product in media, it's the news itself - while on the older products there is rarely a 'hype' simply because everybody knows. So you would use this 'hype' about new products to attract people to your shop.

Doesn't matter which product the consumers buys in your shop - important is, you get him into your shop. That's why you would put your newest product on top - not to promote this product but to promote your shop. Look: we have even the brand new xxx in stock.

I doubt you can attract people to the simtropolis forums best with SC4. Because of this. Maybe they become interested when they are inside the shop. But first you have to attract them to the shop itself. And you would do this with something actual, not old. You attract people with the brand new sewing machne, then the client asks, can I do this and that - and then on second step, you'd say, no, but I have this other model, a little older and not so shiny, that can do. There is no need to sell the product you advertise.

But now - Simtropolis doesn't advertise and sell products itself. Simtropolis doesn't take part in the market and doesn't make up the market but can only reflect the market - reflect what is playing in the gallery, the hype in media etc.. SC4 isn't much present in media. So to put it top on shelf imho would be a mistake ignoring the situation outside.   

My five cents.

 

[Fantozzi 4,068]

18 minutes ago, RandyE said:

I can discuss the issues with SC 2013 elsewhere. 

It's a little bit disappointing, I guess, if you come here to get support for an issue with sc2013 and there's almost nobody who can give this support. Imho even community's technical support for sc3000 is better.

So the question maybe wrong - the question isn't where to put sc4, the question is where to put SC2013. It's nothing to see it like a race - who's doing better - it's just to be serious and not to promote forums almost dead and to not disappoint people seeking for help.

Shure it would be best if there were many successfull city builders and there were plenty of topics. It's really nothing of 'win' and 'loose' as to loose a game because being insufficient isn't success, it's something sad. But doesn't help - if community can't give support we shouldn't fake there is support. Maybe this is the crucial point about the discussion. It's not about being more or less successfull games.

As we, hopefully, don't care for success but for the fun playing and therefore supporting the fun of the players, not the success of the games.

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

1 minute ago, Fantozzi said:

So the question maybe wrong - the question isn't where to put sc4, the question is where to put SC2013.

That's a good point and moving that forum down is prolly a very good idea.

[huzman 445]

24 minutes ago, RandyE said:

I am so glad that we re-discovered SC 3000. and I had a great time participating in the SC 3000 revival. 

Hear! Hear!

[Tarkus 6,933]

Regarding my personal take on the ordering, I'm okay with either SC4 or C:S being at the top.  Statistically, they're fairly close, and I think a strong case can be made either way.  SC2013, however, is in third place, and a very considerable distance behind the first two.

The one very interesting thing that caught my eye with the stats, particularly on the C:S side, is that the General Discussion board for that game lags considerably behind the corresponding CJ and modding boards in activity.  Looking at those proportions, it would appear that ST actually has a role in the C:S world that is at least somewhat analogous to the one SC4 Devotion plays in the SC4 community.  The SC4 crowd here seems to have a higher percentage of casual players, as evidenced by the General Discussion breakdown there.

-Tarkus

[Propfam 2,306]

On 11/2/2017 at 1:09 PM, huzmansaid:

Re-arranging the order of appearance.

@Tarkus mentioned in the Folders Discussion " Also, consider the absurdity of wanting to make the SC4 community more like the SC2013 community (which is basically dead, and has been for a couple years now)."

It's high time to reorder the appearance of the different forums: it should be 1st., SC4, 2nd., Skylines and 3rd., SC2013, me thinks.
After all, SC4 is the main forum, all others, and I mean ALL, come second by along shot.
Why, just convenience in surfing around. I for one, I never go to SC2013, and just once to Skylines. So it's a bit of a drag to scroll down, and down, and... just to get to where I want to go.

In fact, from my experience, SC3000 should be promoted to second place, but that's my personal preferences. Anyway this rant should give an idea.

That's reply of my post of Folder Discussion. In the topic, I think we should increase the competitiveness of network modding and stopping the NAM monopoly. But, I don't have intention to hate or even stop the NAM. But, you're deciding my topic to be agreed on, so agree or denying or silent is fine.

I think, SC4 is above the C:S, although is last minute I voted below the C:S. This is due to the activity of SC4 community. Compared to other city-building games here, SC4 is more active than C:S as @Tarkus said.

Thanks.

 

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

As of the moment I'm writing this, it's 60% for the first choice and 40% for the other two combined. I believe we can consider the 2^nd two choices together to represent peeps who feel CSL should remain at the top. Does that seem like sound reasoning?

[huzman 445]

Nope. Each "group" stands alone v/s every one else. Does a right wing party teams with the KKK to overtake the lefties parties?

[rsc204 21,866]

5 hours ago, Chief ZDN said:

I think we should increase the competitiveness of network modding and stopping the NAM monopoly.

Monopoly? Seriously?

You misunderstand, we don't control the RUL codebase, we maintain it for the benefit of the entire community. Want to contribute, no problem, anyone can add their code. For example, look at this little mod, which couldn't work sans NAM code:

So we added the code so it could work.

Similarly the controller compiler allows for users to add code into the NAM, you could technically use it to create a custom set of RUL code not linked to the NAM. Whilst competing sets of code could be made, for almost every usage scenario, a single code-base which everyone can contribute towards makes a lot more sense. It prevents conflicts and ensures everything is interoperable together. Compare that to C:S modding where lots of mods won't work if you've other mods installed, it's much simpler for all if you ask me. We're not trying to be the overlords of RUL code, but by taking responsibility for it, I think a great service has been provided for all.

[TekindusT 3,809]

If you ask to me, SC4 should be at the very top...

...although I know that this is not the general "mentality" of ST, which is meant to be a catch-all site for all city-building simulation fans no matter what game they play. We all jumped hard on the SC2013 and C:S bandwagons at the time and the first bandwagon, which was noisy and chaotic at the beginning, is now empty and abandoned, while the second one keeps quite healthy. At some point, the C:S player base (and Paradox) will move on to other games, as it happens with any other games. I always believed that when the Reddit and Steam forums go progessively quiet, the hardcore fans will find their small place to meet at ST. Then, keeping C:S at the very top still makes some sense in order to "catch" those players seeking for an alternative to Reddit. 

[huzman 445]

3 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Monopoly? Seriously?

I think this a non-issue. In fact, it shows a lack of understanding the issues and jumping to wrong conclusions.

[Propfam 2,306]

7 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Monopoly? Seriously?

You misunderstand, we don't control the RUL codebase, we maintain it for the benefit of the entire community. Want to contribute, no problem, anyone can add their code. For example, look at this little mod, which couldn't work sans NAM code:

So we added the code so it could work.

Similarly the controller compiler allows for users to add code into the NAM, you could technically use it to create a custom set of RUL code not linked to the NAM. Whilst competing sets of code could be made, for almost every usage scenario, a single code-base which everyone can contribute towards makes a lot more sense. It prevents conflicts and ensures everything is interoperable together. Compare that to C:S modding where lots of mods won't work if you've other mods installed, it's much simpler for all if you ask me. We're not trying to be the overlords of RUL code, but by taking responsibility for it, I think a great service has been provided for all.

Thanks for info. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

(If I didn't know better, I'd say this topic is starting to go off topic.)

[huzman 445]

8 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

(If I didn't know better, I'd say this topic is starting to go off topic.)

I agree. Although some people are making a point about the NAM, those points should on the NAM thread(s) or at least in a new topic.

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

I've added a timer to the poll. (I prolly should have done that initially.) It will end one week from the start of the topic which will be this coming Thursday at 2:09 AM EST.

[huzman 445]

Seems like a good idea, since the topic looks like stagnating and the results aren't fluctuating much.

[huzman 445]

On 11/6/2017 at 6:11 AM, CorinaMarie said:

It will end one week from the start of the topic which will be this coming Thursday at 2:09 AM EST.

"So the polls have closed. The votes have been counted. And now, may we have the results?" (Some unknown politician in a dark and unknown country)

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

If we round off the numbers and factor them down, then add a total sample value then this is how the outcome of the poll looks to me.  The poll is a political structure, not a scientific one, but we could consider the total sample similar to the control group in science research.

It is unknown how many would have voted 'none of the above' or 'other'.   There were 1,051 views of the page.  We can add that number of people who did not vote meaning either they were not members, they would have voted 'Other' , there are many multiple views by the same person, or they do not care either way. 

To keep this post brief I haven't shown the math done but below are the results of my processing:

Out of 113 votes/votes by default of no vote

Effectively, there are 3 candidates in the election so we can just number them 1 to 3.

1)    5 voted to put SC4 at the top   4.2%
2)    2 voted to put SC4 below C:S.  1.8%
3)    106 voted for either no change or some other change.  94%

In pure direct democracy of 50% + 1 candidate 3 wins by a massive landslide.

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

5 hours ago, huzman said:

"So the polls have closed. The votes have been counted. And now, may we have the results?" (Some unknown politician in a dark and unknown country)

It is (and has been) in discussion among the admins and Dirk. We'll let you know once a decision is reached. Please do keep in mind a poll of this nature is advisory rather than being a referendum.

[Fantozzi 4,068]

Well, yes. Politicians ask the people what they like to have. Then they make a conference. And then they send a spokesman who will tell what the people are going to get. So, f.e. people ask for more security on the streets. And politicians decide to have more wardens walking around. And what people will get are more parking tickets.

[huzman 445]

6 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

a poll of this nature is advisory rather than being a referendum.

Yeah, that's the truth.

6 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

And what people will get are more parking tickets.

Thank God I stopped driving.

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

I created a thread under City-Builder Games for rating the games covered on ST.   This may also give an idea of where the games stand generally by players and members of ST.