st challenges Simtropolis Challenges Season 3 - General Discussion

[CorinaMarie 29,919]

1 hour ago, MushyMushy said:

... even if we have judges, they ... will be familiar with the styles people present.

I don't doubt this a bit, but I feel that if the judges are impartial and are fully familiar with the difficulty of the constraints of the challenge we would get a more realistic appraisal of each entry. As it is, it is simply what appeals to any particular voter based on immediate visual content rather than it being judged on the suggested criteria for how difficult the challenge was and how the entry exemplifies that criteria.

[Cyclone Boom 17,032]

Having judges is an interesting idea...

Personally though, and this is just how I see it, I think judges would take away from the community interaction. There is no right or wrong answer when voting, and the current system is meant to be open to all. Yes, people do prefer certain styles and images, but opinion is always going to drive a competition of this nature. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the criteria are only suggestions meant to help evaluate each entry. No one can be forced to vote a particular way.

Even if a team of judges remained unbiased, their decisions would still be opinion based, even when strictly following a set of criteria. People would likely disagree with the judges, and say "I would've done that differently", "That's not fair", or "How did that image rank higher than mine?".

It really is hard to get right and strike a balance. At least with the community voting, there is a larger sample size.

As much as it's not perfect (admittedly there are flaws), I strongly believe we should continue with the current voting this season. It worked well last year, and we really can't keep changing things midway through. That's not to say things can't be reconsidered for next year. The feedback is always appreciated.

[Hamish 1,370]

5 minutes ago, Cyclone Boom said:

Personally though, and this is just how I see it, I think judges would take away from the community interaction.  

Agreed, and that's really what we are trying to promote here. What I like about our challenges is that people are viewing creations from people who they normally wouldn't have. We have newer members and older members competing, members from the building or city journal or cities skylines areas competing together.  In the last challenge, most images were receiving around 300 views per image, some more, some less, and around 20 of these people have decided to vote on each image. If this changed to a committee of judges the views for images which don't make the top 5 might get five or ten views. These challenges are all about community, community members making images and the community voting on who they think had the better images.

That being said, I'm not opposed to having a group of judges arranging their picks for best pictures of the whole competition at the end of this season. But I think that would be the only time where I would consider using a dedicated judging committee. 

Feedback is welcome, I'd love to hear how you think we can continue to improve the challenge experience  

[TakemeThere 5,834]

I'd have to agree that having judges is counterproductive to the intent of the challenges - trying to get as many people in the community involved. A while back I was an active member of another well known forum where many of the senior members openly and constantly derided the opinions of the newer and less active members, quite often labeling them as being uneducated and not qualified to properly assess the quality of the work which was being presented. It may indeed have been true that they were better positioned to make such evaluations but overtime the end result was the creation of an elitist and divisive environment and eventually a corresponding exodus of newer members. Interest in SC4 or any game for that matter will naturally decline over time. The admins just want to foster an environment where new and less active users can feel a part of and having an open vote for a challenge like this goes a long way towards that, even if the end result is perhaps a less accurate assessment of how good an entry really is. There is a certain amount of ego and pride involved so it can sting to feel unappreciated but ultimately aren't we really all doing this just for fun?

As for the rep issue. 460 really stood out as being high, it takes a very active member about half a year to compile that amount. I can also respect what rsc is saying about 100 being on the high side too. It's unlikely a single image is worth the normal amount of effort it otherwise takes to receive that many points. However I don't think that would be enough to incite the desired level of participation. Many users are otherwise busy with their own projects, CJ's BAT's etc. and as mushymushy mentioned through provided updates of those project in the 'show us' threads, in CJ's and in the BAT forums they can (at least occasionally) accumulate 100 rep points over a similar range of time as the challenges are open for. They would understandably be hard pressed to put those projects on hold and instead work on an entry without a reasonable incentive. I think the range of options that Cyclone Boom has provided works well in that respect and that the open vote is the best way to settle on the final amount.

One idea I have that could foster more involvement is to award rep points for the top 5 finalist for all challenges and not just the monthly ones. While the number of people voting may be lower than expected, the number of entries for the first couple of challenges was fairly high. That might decline though if people start to feel like they have no chance of winning. It seems like it has happened already but there is no way of determining if that is the reason for it as there are some challenges(eg. the roundabout one) that will simply attract less interest. On the other hand I understand it's probably too late to change things especially with the new formula in the process of being voted on. It was just something that didn't occur to me until recently. I do like the idea of making images anonymous though sometimes its quite obvious who the creator is and while I think it might take away some bias the difference probably wont be statistically significant. The hard one is figuring out how to get more people to vote, don't have any ideas in that respect for now but if I come up with something I'll post it here.

[Fantozzi 4,069]

Complex question I like to break down till I've got many very simple ones - and then again following their path to the initial question.

Judges:

The basic idear of Simtropolis is bringing people together. Moderators did well over the last years not to limit strictly to a computer game but also to the city building genre in general and also to give social elements and discussing politics and urban planning and architecture. Because this means to bring city builder fans together with broughter aspekts of live and with different people. It's mainly the work of Simtropolis that SC4 became more than just a game, more a kind of hobby - modelling an infrastructure you can sit in front and be delighted how it is filled with action.

Judges would be experts. Experts divide. So - no judges please. But more important: you would open a field of work with no merrit: you would have to choose or elect judges, you would have to prove that thyi aren't manipulated or influenced by others. Judges would only work, if they weren't member of this site - but by becoming a judge you would become some sort of VIP in the community - and that's what I don't like about this idear. I never would be a judge. As I prefer to be a bro.

Rep Points (rp):

Those rp sometimes help me - if I see a user with 5 post and 200 rp - I think - oh, he must have uploaded something interesting. Rp used to be informative as the amount of posts Yes - when I first met A Nonny Mosse hear - saw his amont of posts and his rp - I thought ... .... .... (speechless). Well giving rp for challenges makes rp mostly non significant anymore. Rp were a merrit you gained during participating in the community. They were a sign how you are devoted to this community. With giving rp for an individual performance (and not for social engagement) you killed this sense of rp. I, personnaly, never would have done that, as rp had a distinct social function. T-Wrecks, another member for example, that is really important for the community, has gained his Rep by helping others. That he might be superceeded by people who might have no interest in the community but like to self-portrayal - that really bugs me. In general: giving rp as prize - bad idear. You killed a social indicator by making it "game points".

Voting:

The only problem I see in voting: it's to arbritary. Even I know a little bit about art and aesthetics, mostly I vote because I like the motive. If there were naked women in sc4 - I would vote pictures with them always 5 stars. Biology overrules all - some say free will is only a construct of biology. Not so experienced users not so photoshop talents not so known members have it really difficult under this circumstances. So sometime I vote even for social reasons - to promote a newbe that I'm afraid he might be disappointed. But also this makes voting arbritary. More some statement of sympathy.

A solution could be: to make voting categories. Like  "nailed the topic"/ 'originality of the idear'/ ""technical implementation"/"workmanship"    - just some examples what they could like. So you would guide voting softly. This would be better, in my opinion' than establish judges.

Some loose thoughts

One interesting thing: those "Show us your ..." threads have a quite good response, they are popular. My impression is, it's easier to particapate there. The question: why? What is the reason? I don't know, but I've got the impression people are more afraid to partecipate in challenges. One should investigate the reasons for this.

Voting should be honoured. Still I don't know exactly how.

In generall:

Participation is the honour Simtrop can give - much better than rp. Maybe there could be an shrine of the immortals at Simtropolis - a separated section similar to the city journals, where you've got a personal place. In this "shrine" every annual winner  would got his immortal place. His avatar would be there with a short Simtrop-Biography and a mention how the memeber made it to the "shrine of immortality". And then there was a little space, he was free to design it with his own idears . This shrine could also be used for other members who earned outstanding merrits, the social way. Like A Nonny Moose, T-Wrecks. And again: I don't want to say social achievments are better then personal achievments - that's nonsense. both have their importance. The only thing I want to say: don't mix 'em - make clear: who gained what.

Or maybe yo could think of that the monthly winners - at the end of the year - become members of a special group. Every year there could be created a special "new years bat". Which bat is realized those members could decide. So the motivation to partecipate in challenges woud not be reputation (which once had social importance and now have none) but to get the change of doing a bat-request.

Just some idears. It's the general direcetion I want to talk about. It's about how to honour winners and voters. In my opinion for individual performance you should get an individual honour - and rp are community honors. Not good for challenges. But then - giving voters rp points that would be ok - as they do a social job. Maybe at the end of the year the five most competent voters could be rewarded with rp. But not the contributors. They must be awarded with special (individual) prizes. Have a look at soccers world cup. The cup itself you have for four years, then someone lese may take it. Much more important is: your name and the year of winning gets engraved in this cup. It's your name, standing there forever. And that's the exciting point, because every next winner will see your name on it! "See? I was already there, where you are now." That's the magic of this cup. This aspect - to get closer to the immortal divines, to climb the Olympus, this magic rp can't give. The feeling of success. Social merrits are totaly different.

Just my five cents.

But overall - if a thing works well, why change it? Also this is one of the basic questions you get, when you breake this complex question down. Why tinker with running machines?

That you could make challenges better - always - that's only my point of view. Because I have my own thoughts  my own idears about them. But as long as they work there is no NEED for my different idears. They use to say 'too many cooks can soil the broth". Well and that's one of lifes great mysteries: put a bunch of brilliant idears together in a pot and the outcome may be ... goop.

 

 

EDIT

Sorry - this post is a bit messy. Reread it and didn't understand everything.  Sometimes I try to write 'raised english' and the result also is goop.

 

 

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

How about a Simtropolis newsletter that is emailed out to members that opt in to receive the newsletter, then announcements of major events can be mass communicated to generate as much participation as possible?    More entries, more voters, more activity, more fun. 

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

In my own humble opinion I think the old way was best. The trixsy awards. Where we earned ribbons. I miss seeing mine. Where we could nominate others vote and get rewards. These rp awards I agree with @Fantozzi . It diminishes the real value of community participation. 

 

 

[rsc204 21,868]

1 hour ago, Fantozzi said:

Rep Points (rp):

Those rp sometimes help me - if I see a user with 5 post and 200 rp - I think - oh, he must have uploaded something interesting. Rp used to be informative as the amount of posts Yes - when I first met A Nonny Mosse hear - saw his amont of posts and his rp - I thought ... .... .... (speechless). Well giving rp for challenges makes rp mostly non significant anymore. Rp were a merrit you gained during participating in the community. They were a sign how you are devoted to this community. With giving rp for an individual performance (and not for social engagement) you killed this sense of rp. I, personnaly, never would have done that, as rp had a distinct social function. T-Wrecks, another member for example, that is really important for the community, has gained his Rep by helping others. That he might be superceeded by people who might have no interest in the community but like to self-portrayal - that really bugs me. In general: giving rp as prize - bad idear. You killed a social indicator by making it "game points".

I think you've summed up my feelings much better than I could have done. I don't for one minute think that such challenges should be bereft of rewards. But what it comes down to, is what do we as a community think Rep stands for? Because if Rep is more akin to the dictionary definition of Kudos, having huge amounts given for competitions is just fine. But if we see Rep as a gauge of members contributions to the community, as I do, then giving such high amounts to competition winners, just doesn't sit well. Perhaps I should be a better person and not care about Rep and feedback and all such things, but it's only human nature to do so.

Sometimes it's hard to stay motivated, when you don't feel there is much recognition for your achievements. For example, if I show off a project and that gets people talking about it, I'm far more likely to stay motivated and bring it to release quicker. To me, Rep, or the system of likes, has become the new feedback. Since the new ST format introduced them, I see far less people commenting, because it's all too easy to click the like button instead. I'm guilty of not using the like button very much, which is perhaps an irony here. It's just not the way I'm used to showing my support for things, it doesn't come naturally.

As for discussions on how the challenges are rated, well that's a dead end in my opinion. Ultimately a given user will vote based on their own criteria, regardless of what we define the criteria as. I'll be totally honest here, I looked over the first challenge entries, but never voted. Mainly because looking at a bunch of vanilla images, I found them all pretty underwhelming. Which isn't a surprise, because the true beauty of SC4 in my opinion, totally comes from using custom content creatively. But I really don't think having judges is in the spirit of what we're trying to achieve. Opinion is always subjective, just because I didn't see merit in the Vanilla challenge, was not a barrier to others, who clearly did. As such, people will vote how they wish to, in much the same way, people will like what they want and comment on what they want.

One of my greatest flaws as a person, is that I overthink everything. Great from a technical perspective, but not so useful with human interaction. Every now and again, I realise I just have to get over myself. Because often it's better just to get on with things and be part of something. If you focus too much on expectations or recognition, ultimately it just makes life harder. Whilst it's nice to win or feel that you are special, the real pleasure I derive is from being a part of something. Whether that's creating new things or just helping other people to enjoy a hobby I wish to champion. It's really great to know however, that such a potentially difficult conversation can take place openly here, even if all the answers won't come out of it. Nothing is perfect, but dialogue can be a great healer sometimes too.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

I agree. When we had the other system I never compeated I was allways surprised when I won a ribbon. Like the one I had for reviving the sim mars project. I see the rp system the same way @rsc204  and @Fantozzi see it. 

 

The ribbons at the bottom of our name gave  us recognition in its own way along with our rp points. The ribbons in its way said what this person was good at therefore say I wanted or needed to ask a question about BATS I would look for not only a thread but a person with a respective ribbon that would signify this is the person I want to talk to.

 

Ive just got to agree with these two users. I am long time vet here who is returning after a long absence IMHO I believe the old system of rewards was the best while recognizing the work's done by others as well as the community involvement.

[MushyMushy 3,618]

@Mary Maurine Mayo - I know the Simtropolis staff wants to bring back the various awards that were displayed beneath users' names since it was killed by one of the site updates, but in the meantime I guess they want to still have some sort of prize to offer so it has been relegated to reputation points since that's the only tangible one at this time. In the earlier days of the "challenges" I remember they gave out little ribbons and I suspect they'll do the same once/if the awards system is restored.

I do agree to a point about the value of reputation. I worked pretty hard over the course of a few years to get it to where it is now and I don't fully like how one could theoretically obtain similar amount with a lot less work (though the relatively high difficulty of consistently winning these contests has already been discussed). The flipside of it though, as I said in the other thread, is that if one puts a high value on their reputation score for whatever reason, I personally think they should take a crack at these contests since it seems like this'll be the way things are for the time being. Besides, in all honesty these things are pretty fun.

As a side note: I think you may have the wrong idea that these are replacing the Trixies, I don't think they are. This is just an additional thing. The Trixies have just been happening at odd times because they've been really late (e.g. 2014 Trixies awards ceremony during November/December 2015).

[Fantozzi 4,069]

40 minutes ago, Mary Maurine Mayo said:

The ribbons at the bottom of our name gave  us recognition in its own way along with our rp points. The ribbons in its way said what this person was good at therefore say I wanted or needed to ask a question about BATS I would look for not only a thread but a person with a respective ribbon that would signify this is the person I want to talk to.

Yours and rsc204 posts made me think how different these things are on the emotional level. To be appreciated by the community and to win a race - both give good feelings, but they are completely different. I had to learn this as a father. You can't always compliment your children for the one but not for the other. I used to complement them much to much when they showed good social behavior and didn't pay enough attention when they did a good grade or they achieved a personal aim. I had to discover they didn't develop a strong character, they were weak regarding peer groups, they became to altruistic, selfless. So one of the challenges () of education is: to keep this in a balance: to reward social behavior  but also to reward them, when they do something outstanding. It's totally okay to be proud of yourself, to be a little bit selfish some times.

By giving Rep points for something outstanding you harm also this - as everybody gets rp. You were stolen to beeing someone special. Banners instead did this. I had no banners and seeing those banners in an avatar I had exactly this thought: Oh, they did something outstanding. Watching rp I can't see that. But this is, what challenges are about! Beeing king for a day, for an hour, for a minute. That's nothing evil. Again - both feelings are needed for a sane personality.

And then - a little step further. Think of a jury giving the same 'reputation' points that we give each other for respect. How can that be? Since world is turning reputation always came from 'vox populi',  from the crowd. Cheers, applause . the sea of lights, when they are chanting enthusiastic in the dark with their lighters raised up in the air and you're on the stage – all these emotions a crowd can produce - a jury can't.

And banners are given by authorities. For me too, this seems more balanced.

 

[Fantozzi 4,069]

Sorry for double post - had another thought on this, I forgot by debating about rp.

I would assume, the general interest in challenges is seasonal. During the summer month many people are away, there is not much interest in citybuilding at all etc. You know, Simtropolis users are a little bit like migrant birds.

There's is a risk to judge challenges under this circumstances - f.e. you could say 'oh the last batting challenge didn't went well, it was a bad idear. One had to consider it was the right idear but not the right time.

Moderators, I think, have the possibilites to evaluate hit rates over longer periods - and then they could consider when doing challenges.

In the not so active months lesser and more general themed challenges. In the more active months the more sophisticated challenges. Or something like this.

I think it's normal that there are periods overall interest goes down. And there are some possibilites to absorb this a bit.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

1 hour ago, MushyMushy said:

@Mary Maurine Mayo - I know the Simtropolis staff wants to bring back the various awards that were displayed beneath users' names since it was killed by one of the site updates, but in the meantime I guess they want to still have some sort of prize to offer so it has been relegated to reputation points since that's the only tangible one at this time. In the earlier days of the "challenges" I remember they gave out little ribbons and I suspect they'll do the same once/if the awards system is restored.

I do agree to a point about the value of reputation. I worked pretty hard over the course of a few years to get it to where it is now and I don't fully like how one could theoretically obtain similar amount with a lot less work (though the relatively high difficulty of consistently winning these contests has already been discussed). The flipside of it though, as I said in the other thread, is that if one puts a high value on their reputation score for whatever reason, I personally think they should take a crack at these contests since it seems like this'll be the way things are for the time being. Besides, in all honesty these things are pretty fun.

As a side note: I think you may have the wrong idea that these are replacing the Trixies, I don't think they are. This is just an additional thing. The Trixies have just been happening at odd times because they've been really late (e.g. 2014 Trixies awards ceremony during November/December 2015).

I am happy to hear this does not replace the trixie rewards. Not to mention id love to see my little ribbons again. I never really paid much attention to the rep system myself at least my own.

My main concern is to fix my files on the STEX atm. 

Thanks for clarification on this.

[CorinaMarie 29,919]

7 hours ago, Cyclone Boom said:

I strongly believe we should continue with the current voting this season.

Yes, absolutely keep it how it is for this season. As my dad likes to say: Don't go changing horses in the middle of the stream

4 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

With giving rp for an individual performance (and not for social engagement) you killed this sense of rp. I, personnaly, never would have done that, as rp had a distinct social function.

I learned this in my first month here. Spend a bunch of time writing helpful posts like @rsc204 and many others do and yet not a single Like for them. Those posts are really the ones that should receive special recognition since I feel they embody one of the main aspects of the community's function. On the other hand, spend 1 minute posting a pic in a Show Us thread and get two or more Likes. (Yes, it often takes considerable time to create the image, but peeps do that for their own enjoyment anyhow.)

And then there is the tit for tat aspect I've sort of adopted. If a particular member rarely Likes my posts, then I withhold Likes for theirs. I'd like to see all good posts recognized for their merit. I feel it would encourage more peeps to post when they could contribute to the discussion.

4 hours ago, RandyE said:

How about a Simtropolis newsletter that is emailed out to members that opt in to receive the newsletter, then announcements of major events can be mass communicated to generate as much participation as possible?

Just my personal preference, if I could receive it via a Private Message here I would opt in. If it's email I won't likely see it for a month or more. I have email cause it's needed when one joins a new site, but otherwise it's not a constant part of my life. (Yes, I'm odd this way. Tis how I was raised.)

[rsc204 21,868]

12 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

I have email cause it's needed when one joins a new site, but otherwise it's not a constant part of my life

Nope, normal in my book .

I'm trying to think of another medium that is more annoying. E-mail = constant SPAM. Every once in a while, I get an e-mail I care about. Once my employer sent something important to my e-mail account. I didn't know about it for months as a result. I know many have smartphones that tell them the moment it arrives, but I don't have a data package, I simply can't justify the 5€ a month a basic package costs on a phone that costs me 15€ every 6 months or so otherwise. Not to mention, getting constant alerts for SPAM would do my head in. 

[TekindusT 3,809]

2 hours ago, MushyMushy said:

I do agree to a point about the value of reputation. I worked pretty hard over the course of a few years to get it to where it is now and I don't fully like how one could theoretically obtain similar amount with a lot less work (though the relatively high difficulty of consistently winning these contests has already been discussed). The flipside of it though, as I said in the other thread, is that if one puts a high value on their reputation score for whatever reason, I personally think they should take a crack at these contests since it seems like this'll be the way things are for the time being. Besides, in all honesty these things are pretty fun.

1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

I learned this in my first month here. Spend a bunch of time writing helpful posts like @rsc204 and many others do and yet not a single Like for them. Those posts are really the ones that should receive special recognition since I feel they embody one of the main aspects of the community's function. On the other hand, spend 1 minute posting a pic in a Show Us thread and get two or more Likes. (Yes, it often takes considerable time to create the image, but peeps do that for their own enjoyment anyhow.)

I know it is not like this, but following the conversation derived from the challenges prizing, it looks like we all make a living out of likes/reputation points now. If you are here around in ST and write helpful comments in order to help other Simtropolites or create cool content... well, it is because you want in the first place. People aren't forced to like every "high-quality content" you or any other user generates, because it's not their job to do so. I don't get paid to value every single post I see and rate it accordingly, I'm here to have fun and be a part of a larger community as rsc204 pointed out. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I'm frankly surprised of reading this: "[...] are really the ones that should receive special recognition since I feel they embody one of the main aspects [...]" Should they really?? Until now, I thought we tried to help other Simtropolites for the sake of helping and learning and seeing other points of view, not to get something in exchange. I would understand if you got $0.20 for each like. Remember that green counter below your name is exactly this, a green counter below your name. 

Simtropolis has lived many years without any kind of reputation system whatsoever and people helped each other and created cool content and gave feedback each other back then anyways. People like Nonny have been around since 2003 and during most of their time in the community they have seen no rep points. If the system had been implemented in 2003, he would have piled up an astronomical number of them but he hasn't. And he couldn't care less about rep points. What is important is all the content he generated during the years and the concept of him we have in our minds, not the green number he has under his name.

If we have to get in a competition of "who is cooler" or "who is more helpful" based on our rep points, please empty my counter and give the points to somebody else who "needs" them more than me.

 

 

 

[Fantozzi 4,069]

@TekindusT

You aren't fair. To give you a reputation point is my possibilty to say thank you. To give them back, hurts me - as I get the impression you don't want my thanks.

I'm afraid we are dragging this to far. All this we're doing for a game, a hobby. And the main reason to help or to post pictures is the same - and it is very simple - because we like to do it. Regarding motivation: this is the only true reason regarding all the things we do here. No matter of what kind it is. I like getting help. I like offering help. I like batting. And also: I like giving thanks. I strongly hope - this will always be my decicion. And all the likes I gave you - you better keep them or I'll get upset. Because I gave them not for your reputation but for your kindness. And that's what you forgot in your argument: where's a reciever there is always a giver. And the giver doesn't act for reputation.

 

1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

I learned this in my first month here. Spend a bunch of time writing helpful posts like @rsc204 and many others do and yet not a single Like for them. Those posts are really the ones that should receive special recognition since I feel they embody one of the main aspects of the community's function. On the other hand, spend 1 minute posting a pic in a Show Us thread and get two or more Likes. (Yes, it often takes considerable time to create the image, but peeps do that for their own enjoyment anyhow.)

No!

Please, CorinaMarie, don't give me angry looks - but I don't agree.

This talking "x is more important than y" you'll get exactly because you put the same measure on two different things.

I enjoy those artworks. I like to browse through the challenge picture - there are city journals they are like places to rest for me - if I had a bad day just to jump over f.e. to Schulmania and finding something to smile about. How important is this! With their artwork they doing good to me. Really.

To put those in the same bowl - that's what causes a conflict, that's what makes us say "offering help is more important than making artwork".

I feel a sensless pressure, if someone asks me, "what is more important for you, the artwork or the guides?" I can only give a stupid answer like: "I think it's Simtropolis that's the most important thing on Simtropolis.

That's why I made a wall of text again (every morning I say to my myself - today only three-row-posts) - don't put the same measure on two aspects of Simptropolis, that have nothing in common. Agriculture or Skyscrapers? The barbastelle or the wild rabbit? Most of the time I have not a single clue about all of this "this-or-that-questions". Life gets it taste by its richness - and so normally I can only do a counterquestion: "well, would it eventually be possible to get both?" If I can decide - well, I want to have all of it, a whole life, not a quarter or a half.

And in most of the cases this is possible, Most of the "this-or-that-questions" are theory.

And the same here: giving rp to artwork causes a conflict with the social activitiys that is unsubstantial, regarding the meaning of both. These are no counterparts. They are made artificially to counterparts by a systematical error. And maybe some day we may see: the same with black and white, with woman and man. Well and now I ran out of topic like a fly on the window plane.

I'll punish myself and be quite on this topic for the rest of the day.

 

[CorinaMarie 29,919]

1 hour ago, Fantozzi said:

Please, CorinaMarie, don't give me angry looks - but I don't agree.

No worries. That's what open discussion is for.

I do spend a considerable amount of time on my little guides simply with the hope they will be useful to others. The Likes are a bonus and I confess I feel a lot of satisfaction when I get them. If there were no reputation points I would still make my posts. As someone said (I'm not going to scroll and find out who) the Likes prolly decrease the number of replies. Without them peeps might be more motivated to post a reply. That would be fine too.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

3 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

No worries. That's what open discussion is for.

I do spent a considerable amount of time on my little guides simply with the hope they will be useful to others. The Likes are a bonus and I confess I feel a lot of satisfaction when I get them. If there were no reputation points I would still make my posts. As someone said (I'm not going to scroll and find out who) the Likes prolly decrease the number of replies. Without them peeps might be more motivated to post a reply. That would be fine too.

I agree if there were no rep points I to would still upload files, create tutorials. ect. In all honestly while I like getting likes its not so much more important as it is helping the community and being a part of the community. I am just happy to help. This has been my main focus since my return here. I am not a very competitive person as I once was. As for the contests well maybe once I am done fixing my files on the STEX I'll have more time to just enjoy the play of the game. 

 

speaking of which and turning the focus off this topic I noticed that one of the challenges is a photo Shop I am currently using Gimp which is very close to Photo Shop so could I use that instead. I can't get the Photo Shop and lost my old copy...

[rsc204 21,868]

The thing is, if reputation is a meaningless way of judging anything, why on earth do we have it in the first place? Wouldn't a simple post count be sufficient? Clearly it's there as some way of referencing data in relation to a given user, no?

Now I do understand it's not all about the scores, I mean this isn't as important as having the high score in PacMan at your local bar, obviously .

But if you put systems in place that compare people to each other, it shouldn't be surprising when an inconsistent approach to how these things are dished out might promote unhappiness. As I said before, it's human nature to see such a system as a comparison of one's worth against others. I am walking the line here, because part of me is sometimes unhappy, feeling it doesn't fairly reflect some peoples contributions. Again let's be honest here, obviously I personally feel that way. But another part of me realises from a life of not winning, that winning isn't everything and such "scores" don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Again all this discussion rests on our definition of what Rep or Reputation is. Because I think the word reputation clashes with contests and prize-giving. And that's the point, if you are saying someone winning a competition, however hard they've worked to do so. Is that worth more than creating a mod which took months or in some cases years of dedication to realise? In the same way, are people who day in and day out, are in the trenches helping people out less worthy of praise than competition winners? I just think the system as it stands is disproportionately recognising one type of user. And the idea that we should all join in the competitions, doesn't really make sense. I don't want lots of rep points or a huge score to lord it above others. I don't view these scores as a competition. I just find it hard seeing someone get 400+ rep points for what boils down to a screenshot or custom lot. When I know to get a similar amount of recognition, I have to work my butt off. So if reputation is to remain a fair system of recognition, we can only tune the side of it we have control over, which is the prizes.

If those entering the competitions would only do so when a big rep prize is on offer. Isn't that a damning indictment itself of the problem here? Because if Rep is so unimportant, why is it necessary to get people to join in? So Rep obviously means something, even if it isn't clearly defined. If it means something, then the system needs to be representative of every means that allows users to accumulate it.

In some ways, I think the system on SC4D works a lot better. Getting a Karma point doesn't come easily, it's a fairer way to assign recognition. It also helps that no one action can result in more than 3 of them. This keeps everyone on a level playing field, I have never felt similarly about these Karma points as I have about Rep on ST.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

7 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

 Because if Rep is so unimportant, why is it necessary to get people to join in? So Rep obviously means something, even if it isn't clearly defined. If it means something, then the system needs to be representative of every means that allows users to accumulate it.

i would have to say and not for myself that a clear definition of reputation is in order. 

the estimation in which a person or thing is held, especially by the community or the public generally; repute :

a man of good reputation.

 

dictionary.com definition.

[Hamish 1,370]

Trixie Awards - these will be back, don't worry about that! When the site was upgraded the system we were using no longer worked, and it has not been updated to a compatible version yet. We are looking for was to bring it back, but that's taking longer than we thought because of how new the forum software we are using is, not many developers have created a suitable awards system yet. It will be back, we are hoping for sooner rather than later. When that does return, depending on what we can do with the system, we will reimplement the awards for challenges (if we can find a suitable way of implementing the, within whatever new system we use).

Reputation Points - we implemented these in challenges because we wanted to expand RP to make sure it covers all parts of the site. Currently it works for people to like posts, city journals, STEX files, comments, when someone provides useful help, when someone says something you agree with. To boil it down it represents community engagement. We felt it was suitable to award larger amounts of RP to people engaging in challenges. It is a competition after all, so we wanted the level of rep to represent the challenge that the entrants went through in winning, but we also want to reward community engagement which is why we don't just award RP to the winner. It seems we were off target as to how much we should be awarding. 

These challenges are all about community engagement, which is why we don't have a panel of judges, why we don't split challenges by the member experience. RP was previously used to to show your appreciation of someone's engagement within the community, and so we felt it appropriate to carry this over into the challenges. 

 

To to sum up; RP is not replacing the trixies. Trixies will be back, they are just taking longer than we had hoped. RP means different things to different people, the way I see it is that it is a way to represent someone's engagement with the community, which we feel is central to the challenges, community engagement. Obviously, it skews higher to newer members, which is something that can not be helped introducing this system into a website over 10 years old. It's not a system which is supposed to mimic SC4Ds karma system, just a way to show appreciation and recognition to people's contributions to the site. Not everyone needs this type of validation, but for some people it's a nice bonus to their contributions. It seems though, that we have the amount of reputation awarded a touch on the high side now, so if you haven't yet, visit the Reputation Prize Referendum topic to vote on how much you think we should be awarding. 

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

Simtropolis is a very likeable place.       What happens if everybody co-operates and everybody gives everybody else likes for everything?  Here, get some, have another one...  The only way to get likes is to participate, so are they really rep pts?  Or mostly participation pts?

In other words, everybody here is here because we all 'like' city simulator games which allow technical, creative and social interaction.  So every like is a like most essentially for the object and recreation defined by the subject of the site.    As well, the SC4 part of the community is foundational as the SimCity series began long before any of the others, defined the genre, and has a greater general reputation and following as it allows a balance of technical, creative and social interaction. 

  Edited July 22, 2016 by RandyE  
ie.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

44 minutes ago, Hamish said:

Trixie Awards - these will be back, don't worry about that! When the site was upgraded the system we were using no longer worked, and it has not been updated to a compatible version yet. We are looking for was to bring it back, but that's taking longer than we thought because of how new the forum software we are using is, not many developers have created a suitable awards system yet. It will be back, we are hoping for sooner rather than later. When that does return, depending on what we can do with the system, we will reimplement the awards for challenges (if we can find a suitable way of implementing the, within whatever new system we use).

Reputation Points - we implemented these in challenges because we wanted to expand RP to make sure it covers all parts of the site. Currently it works for people to like posts, city journals, STEX files, comments, when someone provides useful help, when someone says something you agree with. To boil it down it represents community engagement. We felt it was suitable to award larger amounts of RP to people engaging in challenges. It is a competition after all, so we wanted the level of rep to represent the challenge that the entrants went through in winning, but we also want to reward community engagement which is why we don't just award RP to the winner. It seems we were off target as to how much we should be awarding. 

These challenges are all about community engagement, which is why we don't have a panel of judges, why we don't split challenges by the member experience. RP was previously used to to show your appreciation of someone's engagement within the community, and so we felt it appropriate to carry this over into the challenges. 

 

To to sum up; RP is not replacing the trixies. Trixies will be back, they are just taking longer than we had hoped. RP means different things to different people, the way I see it is that it is a way to represent someone's engagement with the community, which we feel is central to the challenges, community engagement. Obviously, it skews higher to newer members, which is something that can not be helped introducing this system into a website over 10 years old. It's not a system which is supposed to mimic SC4Ds karma system, just a way to show appreciation and recognition to people's contributions to the site. Not everyone needs this type of validation, but for some people it's a nice bonus to their contributions. It seems though, that we have the amount of reputation awarded a touch on the high side now, so if you haven't yet, visit the Reputation Prize Referendum topic to vote on how much you think we should be awarding. 

Thanks this clears things up a bit. No problems here. 

[rsc204 21,868]

2 hours ago, Hamish said:

To boil it down it represents community engagement. We felt it was suitable to award larger amounts of RP to people engaging in challenges

Well then perhaps an example will make my point.

This is one of my mods. It has been download just over 2,000 times since the beginning of the year. It currently has 5 likes or Rep points associated with it. I didn't make this mod for my game, I would never use such a thing. It's probably the most complete mod of it's kind ever produced and took many, many hours of work to assemble. Ironically, I've received more likes on this topic alone today than that mod which 2,000 people downloaded has. I don't expect 2,000 have even read my comments today, nor that that many people even visited the site today (I could be wrong on that one).

Based on those stats, that would make winning a challenge with 460 rep points 93 times more rewarding than my efforts? This is why I think something is very wrong here. Because it kind of belittles my work when you look at it in that context.

[TekindusT 3,809]

2 hours ago, rsc204 said:

This is one of my mods. It has been download just over 2,000 times since the beginning of the year. It currently has 5 likes or Rep points associated with it. I didn't make this mod for my game, I would never use such a thing. It's probably the most complete mod of it's kind ever produced and took many, many hours of work to assemble. Ironically, I've received more likes on this topic alone today than that mod which 2,000 people downloaded has. I don't expect 2,000 have even read my comments today, nor that that many people even visited the site today (I could be wrong on that one).

Despite each one of us thinks in a different way, as it has been left clear on this thread, I can't stop wondering myself... Isn't the fact that people are downloading and using and enjoying your mod  the actual reward?

[rsc204 21,868]

But we're not talking about rewards, I think that's where the point is being missed. Reputation is something that allows people to compare users, in respect of their entire involvement with the community. Of course no one can control how much is given in respect of mods or comments etc. But when you give them out as prizes, especially in such high volumes, it distorts the way people might view one users contributions against another.

To be clear, I'm not saying that mod deserves more than 5 rep points. Just because 2000 people downloaded it, but only 5 took the time to click "like", doesn't mean only 5 people liked the mod.

But if we have a system whereby reputation can simply be won, rather than earned. At the very least, you should factor into the amount given, how this compares with the contributions of the other activities on the site.

I'm not trying to get more points - although it seems talking about it is working, *joke* -, I do my best not to care about it. I just feel very strongly that having worked extremely hard to earn my reputation, seeing others get lots of it for comparatively little, makes a mockery of the whole thing.

 

[_Michael 2,681]

I just thought I would give my view on the reputation points.

I give reputation points to a variety of posts, and they generally fall into one of these categories:

- A post/CJ entry that is stunningly beautiful

- A post that provides insightful/knowledgable/helpful infomation 

- A show of appreciation for a comment (Either in my CJ, or a reply to a question etc)

- A post I agree with (Usually in the discussion/current affairs forums)

Therefore, when I look at a user's rep count, it represents to me one of two things:

1. They are a well-established, helpful, knowledgeable and trustworthy member of the ST community.

2. They provides stunningly beautiful content.

 

Therefore, completion wins should in my view be rep based, as the winning users will have produced stunningly beautiful content, which I would normally give rep for. However this level should be keep relative to a post in the forums or a CJ entry.

Just my view...

I'm not sure if other users view Rep count in a similar way.

 

[Cyclone Boom 17,032]

Even though we all have our own opinions on the subject, I truly thank everyone for the input.

It's a fact that content creators don't always get the credit they deserve. The NAM recently has surpassed 300,000 downloads -- an amazing achievement, though it only has 34 likes. But personally, I believe the ultimate reward for an author is seeing the content being used in someone else's game. In a CJ or wherever, this shows the item has helped enhance the experience of another player. For a BAT thread, the same could be said for constructive or helpful replies, which show people are interested. But even if this doesn't happen, it doesn't mean your work isn't appreciated. Getting people to see the content is half the battle.

Again, I completely and wholeheartedly agree that rep prizes have been too high for challenges so far. We understand that 460 rep is too much for a single challenge prize. That's precisely why some greatly reduced options have been provided, and the outcome of the referendum will help to shape the new way forward.

There have been many, many people involved in the history of Simtropolis. But with SimCity 4 modding, the NAM Team is of course right up there. Considering what they've done for SimCity 4, you'd expect the NAM Team account to have amassed about 1 million rep. No, they have less than 1st place for Urban Features. It does seem imbalanced, and that is a very valid point.

As well as reputation was given out too lavishly as a prize, this proves a few things:

• Reputation really can't be taken too seriously. Sure, it's nice to know people appreciate what you post. However, when viewed as a total, it isn't an accurate measure of quality, participation, or what someone has brought to the community. It's only a number, and doesn't have any substantial meaning.
   
• Not all site areas are conducive to gaining rep, and between them, the amounts given aren't proportional. On the STEX, people are more inclined to download files, which could be viewed as their token of appreciation. The forums and CJs are the main source of rep.
   
• It hasn't been around for that long. I believe rep was only introduced around 2011 (on STEX files a few years later), which replaced a previous 'points' system on user profiles, reflecting contributions in a different way. That's another reason why some long-standing members, sometimes with thousands of posts, don't have a large rep total. It doesn't mean they've made poor contributions, or haven't been involved positively in the community.

 

I believe each reputation point should be valued in its own right, not as a whole. Each time someone likes one of my posts, a notification pops up, and it does show that you're on the right track. As much as this is nice, and I'm grateful for the support, it isn't the end of the world if nobody again liked anything I posted.

Surely we all contribute and put time and effort into Simtropolis, because we enjoy being a part of it. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Can't the same be said about the challenges, where any prize is a bonus, and it's more about taking part?

 

---

 

10 hours ago, Mary Maurine Mayo said:

speaking of which and turning the focus off this topic I noticed that one of the challenges is a photo Shop I am currently using Gimp which is very close to Photo Shop so could I use that instead. I can't get the Photo Shop and lost my old copy...

Sure, you're welcome to use GIMP or any editing tool you can find.

[Fantozzi 4,069]

17 hours ago, Hamish said:

Reputation Points - we implemented these in challenges because we wanted to expand RP to make sure it covers all parts of the site. Currently it works for people to like posts, city journals, STEX files, comments, when someone provides useful help, when someone says something you agree with. To boil it down it represents community engagement. We felt it was suitable to award larger amounts of RP to people engaging in challenges. It is a competition after all, so we wanted the level of rep to represent the challenge that the entrants went through in winning, but we also want to reward community engagement which is why we don't just award RP to the winner. It seems we were off target as to how much we should be awarding. 

These challenges are all about community engagement, which is why we don't have a panel of judges, why we don't split challenges by the member experience. RP was previously used to to show your appreciation of someone's engagement within the community, and so we felt it appropriate to carry this over into the challenges.

 

Yes, shure. We should understand, that the arguing shows at first place, that something emotional is touched. And that there are people that don't care much about this points and that there are people who take motivation from these points they haved recieved over the years. And the first thing we should do - we should respect each other in those different feelings. Because both positions are right and okay and to quarrel about who does better (those who take the rp serious, those who don't care much about them) leads to nowhere.

And how you explain it, things seems alright.

But doing a reading of what some members wrote - I had to agree, they have a point and that's why I took part in the discussion.

Again - I try to explain.

This system is perfect. I can give a point to someone, who made a good joke, I can give a point for an upload that I enjoy - these is all equal and it's my free and my own decission, for what I'm giving my likes. And also, if I give openhearted many of them or if I'm stiff and only to the best of the best. That's all part of my own social behavior. And that's it. To complain about "I got no points" - well that's nothing administrators can do about. That's fate. Me, myself I still get surprised, for what I get rp. To search a deeper logic in fate - that causes headache. And to be out for rp would mean to become an opportunist and always saying what people like. All this isn't something for moderators to take action. All these are personal decissions users can make.

And I really see no point arguing about that - arguing about fate.

This is a general missunderstanding of democracy: that everyone has to have an equal fate. This state of justice isn't reachable. It's an utopia. Fate demands, that someone gets 10 rp for a silly joke and another one gets 2 points for a nice lot, he uploaded. Fate isn't fair and there's no lawyer in the world that can accuse fate in a court. The same with moderators. They never should try to ajust fate. Thats the weakness of a democratic system - but to act against this weakness would mean to act against the freedom to choose. Bad idear.

Hamish, do you agree until this point?

Well again - this system is perfect. I can give a like here and there. And my neighbor can give a like here and there. But me I can't give two or three likes to a joke, I find extremly funny - I still have only one voice. One person - one voice. That's the basic of a democratic election. And that's wonderful because I can be assured my neighbour is the same - he doesn't have more voices than me. Also him, he has one voice. And that is – equity and justice. Apart from fate - this works pretty well.

Now on the to the challenges. They are something special. I think everybody here agrees they deserve a special reward. And no ones argues against that. But then ... there's added a multiplicator, an algorithm to voting. Soon someone got's more than one voice. My neighbour don't vote in challenges. He still has one voice. Me, voting in challenges, I have my voice maybe tripled.

Now what does this mean - you opened a door for the manipulation of fate as a few people can promote other people stronger. They have more power. Imagine, I do every challenge and have friends they vote for me. Those friends have more electional power than all the others not participating in challenges and challenges voting. The democratic system isn't in balance anymore. Regarding rp 10 voters in the challenges have the estimated overall voting power of 50 voters, voting at other places.

So - with promoting challenges (again - I see myself, this is necessary) the balance - I called equity and justice a few lines above - is hurt.

Okay, this might sound a little bit hysterical. On a practical level this might be less important, it's a game, it is for fun, well and those few rps - what's the tempest in a teapot?

You forget about emotions. If we are about playing games, they are strong, they have a weight.

Well, I think, this tempest is a very good sign and it makes me smile. It shows that people are hyper sensible for democratic inbalance. As if they had an instinct, a bad feeling, and even if they can't analyze the complex situation - they feel, something's wrong. And with this feeling they argue about this and that, maybe not getting the point. But they are worried. And they are doing good.

Even if it's exagerated regarding the subject. Doesn't matter. This shows people are alert regarding their ideals. So we should be happy about this controversy - regarding humanity it fills me with confidence.

And again I make a suggestion. To return to equality you'll have to promote challenges in a different way, not with rp. To multiplicate rp means to give voters there more power than voters at other places. I agree, this isn't a grave thing on the logical level. But on the emotional level it is.

And this we should respect too.