NAM: Requests - 2nd Edition

[Xander Dax 310]

Will more new bridges be added in NAM33?

[Ganaram Inukshuk 906]

Will more new bridges be added in NAM33?

Short answer, no. Those will be more for after NAM 33.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Speaking of bridges, with the ferry-under-the-bridges problem be fixed on 33?

[Tarkus 6,932]

It's been such a long and drawn out release cycle that I'm not sure what we did on that front.  I'll have to go back over that to check on it, as that's definitely something that should be part of the official release.

-Tarkus

[aaaling 83]

Is there supposed to me one more video in Ganaram Inukshuk's RHW video series? I looked at the playlist and teaser 3 is missing. Is anyone else aware of this?

Also, I could not insert a link using the link button. When I clicked "insert into post", both fields were blanked for some reason. Does anyone else have this problem?

[rsc204 21,808]

May have something to do with there being two videos numbered 4 .

[aaaling 83]

Yet, looking at the playlist, I only see one teaser numbered 4.

[Ganaram Inukshuk 906]

May have something to do with there being two videos numbered 4 .

Yet, looking at the playlist, I only see one teaser numbered 4.

I assure you guys that the playlist has all of the videos in the right order.

Except for one that has a secret feature, which I've taken out, just to see if people can figure it out first.

[Hotwheeler 409]

Well,since this is the NAM Request Thread and El Rail is kinda related to NAM i would love to finally see a more vintage/grunge/realistic Overhaul for the Elevated Railway.

It seems there were some  cool Approaches to achieve a better Look but none of them made it into Production.

Sadly the Pictures are fading away too and so i had to take one from the Google Image Search...

I would like to have something like that:

Don`t know who made it and if it is possible to revive it.

[SharkSark 397]

I would love to see new textures for the BTM and the elevated rail mod because they kinda look hideous nowadays when used in cities filled with glass buildings no offence but It would be nice to see some el-rail textures and BTM textures based on the textures made by versher or something else like that. rest the NAM 33 is frickin awesome !

[rsc204 21,808]

May have something to do with there being two videos numbered 4 .

Yet, looking at the playlist, I only see one teaser numbered 4.

I assure you guys that the playlist has all of the videos in the right order.

Except for one that has a secret feature, which I've taken out, just to see if people can figure it out first.

I do apologise if I got this wrong, I could have sworn there were, perhaps I wasn't looking at the public playlist though?

[Ganaram Inukshuk 906]

 

I do apologise if I got this wrong, I could have sworn there were, perhaps I wasn't looking at the public playlist though?

I took out the video from the playlist. I'm not gonna say much else until either someone figures out the missing features or enough time has passed and no one's figured it out.

[rsc204 21,808]

You are just full of the Mystery bug of late... it's fun though :).

[Tarkus 6,932]

Regarding the bridge/ferry situation, I have found what is causing the issue.  It is alluded to in this post by smoncrie from 2011, who actually began fixing this the issue but decided that it would be somehow fruitless, because of the difficulty in getting bridge creators to update their bridges.  The fact that the bridges are now included in the NAM proper would get around this.  My own testing just now verifies smoncrie's original findings, and removing the BridgeObstruction property from several of the individual tiles in the Krummbach Road Bridge (previously reported to be a problem bridge) did allow ferries to pass under.

-Tarkus

  Edited August 10, 2015 by Tarkus  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Good to hear that there is a known solution.  I hope it will apply to all bridges in 33.

[Tarkus 6,932]

Fixing them across the board is the plan for the official, finalized NAM 33 release.  The matter is on our GitHub Issue Tracker--it'll be switched from "Open" to "Closed" once the problem is fixed.

-Tarkus

[citycowboy 183]

Is there a straight avenue to diagonal avenue plop piece, similar to the trumpet for ground highway so you could join two avenues together, one from the side, without a light? I noticed on the dev tutorial there were no instructions on how to do this.

Perhaps a hand over hand transition piece, so you could bring two really big streets together. For example, 35W in Minneapolis, Wacker and 41 in Chicago, Alaskan at Sodo in Seattle, 101 to 10 in LA?

A middle option between street and road, such as Rivit's tar sealed street, simply for aesthetic reasons would be awesome. I think its weird that the busy streets are all jet black. One way streets as well for rowhouse neighborhoods. Also, a transition splitter for a street to two streets would be fantastic, especially for steep hills.

I don't wanna rant too much.

 

Just some ideas, you guys do a great job. I appreciate it.

 

[JessiLaurn 183]

Fixing them across the board is the plan for the official, finalized NAM 33 release.  The matter is on our GitHub Issue Tracker--it'll be switched from "Open" to "Closed" once the problem is fixed.

-Tarkus

You have absolutely no idea how happy this makes me!   OK, strike that; you do know, since I went and hunted down every one of the offending bridges last year.

 

  Edited August 12, 2015 by JessiLaurn  

[matias93 7,535]

Is there a straight avenue to diagonal avenue plop piece, similar to the trumpet for ground highway so you could join two avenues together, one from the side, without a light? I noticed on the dev tutorial there were no instructions on how to do this.

Perhaps a hand over hand transition piece, so you could bring two really big streets together. For example, 35W in Minneapolis, Wacker and 41 in Chicago, Alaskan at Sodo in Seattle, 101 to 10 in LA?

A middle option between street and road, such as Rivit's tar sealed street, simply for aesthetic reasons would be awesome. I think its weird that the busy streets are all jet black. One way streets as well for rowhouse neighborhoods. Also, a transition splitter for a street to two streets would be fantastic, especially for steep hills.

I don't wanna rant too much.

 

Just some ideas, you guys do a great job. I appreciate it.

 

In fact, an 'avenue merger' exists, but not in the form of the trumpet interchange: it is a three-way elevated crossing, and is located in the roundabout button (using Alt+tab would show it easily).

About the other petitions, I secund it: a one-tile level crossing that allows to fork and merge streets and roads would make a lot easier and cleaner our populated hills. As alternetive, I'm using 2x2 roundabouts, but in narrow hillsides it looks weird.

[APSMS 1,892]

Is there a straight avenue to diagonal avenue plop piece, similar to the trumpet for ground highway so you could join two avenues together, one from the side, without a light? I noticed on the dev tutorial there were no instructions on how to do this.

Perhaps a hand over hand transition piece, so you could bring two really big streets together. For example, 35W in Minneapolis, Wacker and 41 in Chicago, Alaskan at Sodo in Seattle, 101 to 10 in LA?

Aside from the piece Matias93 mentioned, none such are planned. Avenues are designed to be surface level streets, and the speed limit is 50km/h. If you want a smooth merger you can easily convert the avenues into two stretches of RHW-4 and use the RHW to merge them. It is much better suited to the job. Puzzle pieces for all networks are on hiatus, as draggable options offer much more flexibility for a much lower work/code overhead. Likely the only thing to remain puzzle piece based are those static applications most suited to the job, the Cosmetic Pieces in the RHW, and TuLEPs, though both implementations are under review. Oh, and I guess the MHW ramps, but WYSIWYG for the Maxis Highway Ramps--no more will ever be developed due to complexity of the pieces (some of the ramps took a year to make!).

FWIW, Lights have a very minimal impact on the simulation. They do affect transit time with the latest simulator, but largely the pathfinder ignores them. As with much of the rest of the game, you're going to have to pretend/compromise. The devs are roadgeeks, and appreciate merging avenues, but the utility is low and the code/modeling work is high and as mentioned already accessible in the RHW.

A middle option between street and road, such as Rivit's tar sealed street, simply for aesthetic reasons would be awesome. I think its weird that the busy streets are all jet black. One way streets as well for rowhouse neighborhoods. Also, a transition splitter for a street to two streets would be fantastic, especially for steep hills.

I don't wanna rant too much.

Just some ideas, you guys do a great job. I appreciate it.

Unfortunately you can either get all or nothing with textures. There used to be some textures around that brightened/weathered the look of the streets. These would be your best alternative, as the NAM team cannot add new networks (the RHW is not a "new" network, and things like the NWM are ostensibly not new networks, but functional masks of existing ones), and with the exception of the SAM there are no plans to add simultaneous (different) Road texture options. All the textures were developed from the Maxis default ones, so this is the main reason why they look the way they do. The tar sealed street is likely your best bet for the look you want; you may try your hand at modifying the texture onto the road texture template. Rivit is still around, and he may be interested in helping if you ask.

In fact, an 'avenue merger' exists, but not in the form of the trumpet interchange: it is a three-way elevated crossing, and is located in the roundabout button (using Alt+tab would show it easily).

About the other petitions, I secund it: a one-tile level crossing that allows to fork and merge streets and roads would make a lot easier and cleaner our populated hills. As alternetive, I'm using 2x2 roundabouts, but in narrow hillsides it looks weird.

Unfortunately intersections in SC4 always flatten the terrain, even on hillsides. Smooth hillside transitions are therefore impossible, though you can mask the effect somewhat.
I would recommend, if you aim to follow the contours of the hill, that you use Road instead of street, as the slope tolerance is greater, and there exists draggable FAR for odd angles. However, you can connect diagonal streets together in a Y configuration if you're set on using streets. A one-tile puzzle piece for street would be redundant in this case because streets always stop traffic at every intersection.

[Ganaram Inukshuk 906]

A middle option between street and road, such as Rivit's tar sealed street, simply for aesthetic reasons would be awesome. I think its weird that the busy streets are all jet black. One way streets as well for rowhouse neighborhoods. Also, a transition splitter for a street to two streets would be fantastic, especially for steep hills.

I don't wanna rant too much.

Just some ideas, you guys do a great job. I appreciate it.

Unfortunately you can either get all or nothing with textures. There used to be some textures around that brightened/weathered the look of the streets. These would be your best alternative, as the NAM team cannot add new networks (the RHW is not a "new" network, and things like the NWM are ostensibly not new networks, but functional masks of existing ones), and with the exception of the SAM there are no plans to add simultaneous (different) Road texture options. All the textures were developed from the Maxis default ones, so this is the main reason why they look the way they do.

That could very well change in time; at best, you could very well customise every aspect of a texture set, from the grass to the brightness. It's all a matter of having the right tools in place.

[APSMS 1,892]

A middle option between street and road, such as Rivit's tar sealed street, simply for aesthetic reasons would be awesome. I think its weird that the busy streets are all jet black. One way streets as well for rowhouse neighborhoods. Also, a transition splitter for a street to two streets would be fantastic, especially for steep hills.

I don't wanna rant too much.

Just some ideas, you guys do a great job. I appreciate it.

Unfortunately you can either get all or nothing with textures. <snip> All the textures were developed from the Maxis default ones, so this is the main reason why they look the way they do.

That could very well change in time; at best, you could very well customise every aspect of a texture set, from the grass to the brightness. It's all a matter of having the right tools in place.

Well, sure. The point was more to illustrate the origin of the textures. TBH, even the Mojave Texture set of yours is very reminiscent of the Maxis textures, despite obvious (and some not-so-obvious) differences. mgb/rsc204 has already demonstrated a bit of the automation process, but the fact remains that you can't have different textured Roads (RD-2) in different parts of your city without the use of photoediting.

[citycowboy 183]

Would it be hard to make a mod that tells the sims where the draw or seed is to a region based upon where the lot with the highest job capacity is located? Whether its industrial or commercial, the sims would know that the tile with a lot that holds 5000 jobs is lets say south, so when they look for jobs, they don't drive north because they know to go south, and this would be spread out over a region, so lets say there are 16 tiles square, and the seed is in the middle, they travel towards that center tile unless they're within 30 squares from the edge, whereas they would go towards whatever's closer. This would help cities develop naturally and suburbs would develop more realistically. 

[Tarkus 6,932]

Would it be hard to make a mod that tells the sims where the draw or seed is to a region based upon where the lot with the highest job capacity is located? Whether its industrial or commercial, the sims would know that the tile with a lot that holds 5000 jobs is lets say south, so when they look for jobs, they don't drive north because they know to go south, and this would be spread out over a region, so lets say there are 16 tiles square, and the seed is in the middle, they travel towards that center tile unless they're within 30 squares from the edge, whereas they would go towards whatever's closer. This would help cities develop naturally and suburbs would develop more realistically. 

That's not really in the purview of the NAM, though the NAM's simulator will make cross-tile commutes like that more viable.  It's more a matter of how you handle zoning across your region.  If you put the intensive commercial and/or industrial development on a single city tile, and fill the surroundings with predominantly residential, you might be able to get a similar effect (in fact, it's a design strategy the game's instruction book suggests), but it's not going to work exactly like you've described it.  It's going to take a lot of trial and error to get working, you're going to need way more than 5000 jobs (unless your residential tiles have populations less than 1000) and the reliability of the commutes beyond the ring of city tiles immediately surrounding your jobs hub tile may be spotty.

-Tarkus

[citycowboy 183]

I get that, what I was saying was something that would recognize the biggest lot. Let's say you've got 6 large tiles...2 wide by 3 high. The downtown let's say is the middle left tile. Let's say there were 250k sims in each tile. If this is the case, the sims are going to drive in all directions, but if there were something to tell the sims you plopped a Tower that can handle 8k jobs, they would generally head in that direction.

I made a picture of six large tiles forming a region: 

A     B

C     D

E     F

If A has a lot that has 800 jobs, B has a lot that has 2200 jobs, C has a lot that has 8000 jobs, D has a lot that has 1800 jobs, E has a lot that has 700 jobs, and F has a lot that has 1300 jobs. 

If a sim in tile E can't find a job, if this thing were created, he would head towards C instead of going to F because C he knows has the biggest job lot. 

The way it is now, jobless sims from E would travel equally to C and F, causing F to build taller buildings, even though its not the main (downtown) tile in the region. 

Since sims cant cross borders on streets, this forces the sims onto the roads, avenues, and highways, thus increasing the commercial value of these roads, so you could tax more for tile C commercial zones. Right now, if there are 250k sims in each lot, the commercial are going to go to whichever tile has cheaper taxes. 

If you made all six tiles exactly the same with medium density plots all day, then it would all be the same. If you made five of them the same but in 1 of them you plopped, lets say, the Sears Tower, and in the other five that footprint were a park, then the property taxes of the tile that holds the Sears Tower should be higher, because it would accumulate a bigger draw. 

The way the game is now, however, the Sears Tower plop would decrease commercial demand in that tile, and the parks would increase land value, thus making the the medium plots around the Sears Tower to remain the same, but it would trigger growth around the parks. 

If I'm understanding the game correctly, i could be wrong, but thats the way the game plays in my experience. 

I've never actually created six equal tiles to find out. 

I think the sims should be more attracted to a giant tower than a small church, but this is also a cap issue. I understand this is partially a cap issue more than a NAM issue, but whateva.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

An interesting conjecture.  I am not certain that the neighbour connections have anything other than a switch that indicates there are available jobs, not a count.

Also, in  this case, be prepared for the deadly commuter loop.

  Edited August 17, 2015 by A Nonny Moose  
more info

[Tarkus 6,932]

The way the simulation works, regardless of if it's a commute across a single tile or across multiple tiles, there's no way to point traffic toward one specific lot.  The simulator just sees job numbers and a general vicinity of where they are, and then hooks up the residents with those jobs, using the transportation network to get them there and back.

-Tarkus

[Mister Giggles 310]

I suggest that, the next time a NAM beta is uploaded, the current release version is not taken down on SC4devotion. Replacing a presumably tested and bug free offering with one that is presumably minimally tested and has known issues is not good practice.

Another proposal: Do not explicitly remove all support for the current release version in the same description that gives an explicit warning about the nature of the beta. A warning that, presumably, exists to inform people that they may not wish to use the beta, as it is a beta, and they may instead wish to use the current release.

It is logical to assume that some people do not yet have NAM or the current, stable release, and don't want to become beta-testing guinea pigs.

  Edited September 16, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[Tarkus 6,932]

We did actually do exactly as described with the NAM 32 Pre-Release (aside from it being hosted over on ModDB instead of SC4D), but we changed the rollout with the NAM 33 Pre-Release based on what we learned the last time.

First off, our use of the term "pre-release" is actually a precautionary one, the result of NAM 31's rocky launch.  Our pre-releases have actually less buggy than the supposedly "stable" release from the previous cycle, but we use that label just to make sure, and in any case, the NAM has pretty much always been considered a "beta" as long as it's been around.  Last go around, when we had the NAM 32 Pre-Release and NAM 31.2 was still being distributed, and we advertised continued support for it until the full NAM 32 release, the few NAM 31.2 cases we received in tech support were all things that were fixed in the NAM 32 Pre-Release.  The extent of our "official" support for NAM 31.2 during this period ended up being "download the pre-release or wait for the full release of the next NAM", which isn't really support at all.  As a result, this go around, we decided to simply call a spade a spade.

-Tarkus

[Mister Giggles 310]

Alright, glad to hear from you.

Now that I've read over your logic and had a little fit of angst-filled rage in the corner, I believe this is another matter of optics. Think back to what NAM was conveying with the words "Traffic Simulator Only" with what the option actually did.

Pre-release is a poisonous term in the world of computer programs. It's what the Ubisofts and the Bethesdas foist upon us in the guise of complete games, except the optics they use are designed to convince us otherwise. Pre-release, in this context, means that the user is second to the whims of the developer, and that the user gets to run around in a little wheel finding bugs and generally suffering until the developer decides to get their act together. I would have been... perturbed had this been the goal of the NAM team.

If you what you've said is true - and I have no reason to think otherwise -, then you can safely eliminate the current warning language from the description and replace it with the following:

"The NAM is, and has always been, something of an ever-developing suite of additional transit-related items for SimCity 4. Things aren't perfect, things will break, but we're at a point where this is unlikely. We love you. Lots. Hugs and kisses."

Perhaps flavor it up a bit. Give out contact information so people can send their fanmail. Write it out in the form of a haiku.

Communicate your beliefs and intents better. Right now the NAM's warnings read as a big red flashing sign when the reality doesn't require it. Eliminate the concept of "betas" and "pre-releases" and "full versions", stop hosting multiple versions of the NAM if they're not supported. Avoid the use of terms and statements that cause unintended bias, concern, and confusion.

From now on, what you upload is always the current, "full release" version. If it's broken, it gets a patch and this new, patched NAM becomes the current version. No more worry about language and what connotations are being sent with the warnings. As an example, there is no "NAM 33 Pre-release". There is "NAM 33". If something is patched, then an updated NAM is uploaded and called "NAM 33.1". Descriptions are adjusted accordingly.

Yes, there would be an issue if the NAM was being updated routinely - 200+ megs is a pretty big file to download, even these days - but the NAM updates rarely.

  Edited September 16, 2015 by Mister Giggles