Doc's Mass Transit Mod 2.3

I made this for myself to replace the maxis stations as they run out of capacity.  I got sick of just adding more of the same station (at the same location) to keep up with capacity as I push my population higher.  That created quite an eyesore and wasted space.  Now as capacity nears limits you can bulldoze and replace with the next size up.  1 ultra large bus stop costs the same to buy and operate as 10 regular bus stops do (also 10x capacity).  Keeping the cost:passenger ratio the same essentially keeps the finance requirements for mass transit the same as before, you just don't have to waste so much space with side-by-side stations.

 

I realize that some of the capacities seem unrealistic for the size of the lot accommodating them.  I addressed this by adding clever in-game descriptions that explain how the passengers are handled.  The NAM high and ultra traffic simulators increase the roads capacity in a similar unrealistic way, if you consider that one NAM road carries the capacity of many default roads wrapped into one road.

 

The "all_stations_fix.dat" is my favorite creation.  The TSEC times are the result of reading, experimenting, and observation.  The improvement in mass transit efficiency is more noticeable in larger populations.  Pedestrians actually choke up the stations with their "shortcutting".  Once a station is over capacity it adds to commute times.  Longer commute times lead to jobs going vacant, leads to sims going broke, leads to abandonment, leads to lower land value, well you get the picture.  Simply preventing pedestrians from freely cutting corners across stations lets those who need to get across town use it.  This file also includes the tweaks to the freight station, grand rail station, subway-elevated transition, and maxis garages.  This file is optional in regards to my extra stations, they all work without this.  I highly recommend using this, there really isn't a downside.

 

I hope some of you find this to be a nice little addition to your mayor's toolbox.  I have been using this in my cities for years, I just now refined it a bit and decided to share.

 

I welcome all comments and criticisms.

I know some will say that this is just a re-lot but truth be told , I've been using some re-lotted transit buildings I got from this site almost 10 years ago and they still look good even in areas heavy with the newer BATs and lots. These I can use fro more variation and to fit into a crowded downtown better. Thanks for sharing these

Woah, what's with the low ratings? This is his first upload and don't be fooled by the screenshots. Its not just a relot, it's a mod that changes some elements in the game. Good job. 

This looks super useful, I'll certainly try it out.

 

And re-lotting it with nicer items should not be that difficult... the basic (hard) work has been done :-)

I would like to be sure that this mod is compatible with NAM. Is there some expert who can test this, or has tested this already? I don't like to mess up the hard work that was done by the NAM team....

On the other hand the description gives me the idea that Doc did consider his work thoroughly.

 

And most of the lots are OK. Like Paeng said: a relot is not the real issue here. Especially the railwaystation gets hidden behind the garages. I would change that immediately after downloading.

bldgprop_vol1.dat and bldgprop_vol2.dat should not be included in any upload as they are Maxis copyright files.

Some look good but those railway stations just look silly like that.  I think the parking garage would've been better off put at the side or something.

Harbin: They may look silly, but that hasn't stopped developers from doing the same in real life, especially in the 80s.. covering up beautiful architecture by plopping a minimalist structure in its front yard.

 

The subway, however, THAT is really silly.

Modifications and modded assets may create unpredictable effects in your city. ????? what do this mean iam not sure 

Woah, what's with the low ratings? This is his first upload and don't be fooled by the screenshots. Its not just a relot, it's a mod that changes some elements in the game. Good job. 

Thanks!

 

This looks super useful, I'll certainly try it out.

 

And re-lotting it with nicer items should not be that difficult... the basic (hard) work has been done :-)

I'm flattered!  And, yeah just open 'em up in Lot editor, with the tiny cylinder building so small you can hide it in some garbage cans, letting you lot with ANY props.

 

bldgprop_vol1.dat and bldgprop_vol2.dat should not be included in any upload as they are Maxis copyright files.

Thanks for the heads up! That was 'my bad', I fixed it almost immediately.

 

Some look good but those railway stations just look silly like that.  I think the parking garage would've been better off put at the side or something.

Yeah, I agree with you.  I'll keep that in mind for when I redo the lots.  I kind of think about versions like this: alpha =1.0, beta =2.0, final =3.0.  So it's a work in progress.

 

The subway, however, THAT is really silly.

Aww, cmon now... don't you picture the stairs lead to a landing down below that is a 'T' or '4-way' intersection leading down more stairs?  I left enough room between the stairs to imagine that's what's going on there. 

 

Modifications and modded assets may create unpredictable effects in your city. ????? what do this mean iam not sure 

-That's just the standard warning that installing mods into your plugins folder can cause changes in your city that are undesired/unwanted. 

-Always read included documentation with downloads to learn how to install and use them properly. 

-You can always undo changes by removing the files from your plugins folder so don't be afraid of "unpredictable effects".

I would like to be sure that this mod is compatible with NAM. Is there some expert who can test this, or has tested this already? I don't like to mess up the hard work that was done by the NAM team....

 

As a member of the NAM Team, I can state authoritatively that this mod is incompatible with the NAM.  The author even recommends removal of an important NAM file that is not optional.  Nothing goes into the NAM without the approval of the NAM Team as a whole, and in this case the capacities of the NAM stations were approved not only by the NAM Team but by the BSC as well.  If you want to use this mod, go ahead, but it should not be used in conjunction with the NAM, as doing so may cause significant problems with your networks, despite what Doc says.  For full details on what these problems are and why they arise, please see the second post on the next page.

 

I would like to be sure that this mod is compatible with NAM. Is there some expert who can test this, or has tested this already? I don't like to mess up the hard work that was done by the NAM team....

 
As a member of the NAM Team, I can state authoritatively that this mod is incompatible with the NAM.  The author even recommends removal of an important NAM file that is not optional.  Nothing goes into the NAM without the approval of the NAM Team as a whole, and in this case the capacities of the NAM stations were approved not only by the NAM Team but by the BSC as well.  If you want to use this mod, go ahead, but it should not be used in conjunction with the NAM, as doing so may cause significant problems with your networks.

 

 

It will not cause a single problem; the worst that could happen is, if people choose to use my mod and NAMv31+:  The NAM's adjustments to the capacity of the default Maxis transit stations is negated, and the game original capacities are left in tact on them.

 

You can ignore "z1" when he says you can't use this with NAM.  There is zero conflicts with NAMv30 or earlier, and only a minor confict with v31+.  His last sentence is completely false.  Also, that NAM file is "not optional" ONLY because he (and team) says so, NOT because any of the NAM's networks rely on it for function.  This is a change they are forcing on you if you choose to use any other part of NAMv31+  Notice he doesn't say WHY my mod is incompatible, or mention ANY actual negative effects, he simply states "may cause significant problems", without an example.  Not a good argument for something stated 'authoritatively'.  He makes it sound like my mod can't be used with any of the NAM bundle when in fact it only affects one file, and only 9 exemplars within that file.  All other NAM stuff will remain unaffected.

 

To help people understand why he is saying this: understand that he thinks the Maxis stations should be one-size-fits-all and all values except capacity and TSEC should be ignored.  He feels you are entitled to unlimited capacity at a station without having to pay more for it, due to low capacity being a "bug".  I think it's better to just bulldoze and scale up capacity as needed while paying extra for it.  He thinks that a station with 15x it's original capacity shouldn't have increased pollution, jobs, etc.  I think having the extra stations implementation allows you to logically increase jobs, pollution, and consumption as the usage actually increases; there is no other way to make the stations scale those values up with usage, and it seems realistic to me.  It is simply an opinion based thing, but he insists I'm wrong and he is right.  I don't know where his logic comes from and he makes no valid arguments.  The NAMv31+ alone is one way to go, using the NAM and Doc's MTM is another.  Two sides of the same 'Maxis station capacity' coin.

 

Consider some of the implications of his way for a second.  With his implementation the smallest capacity increase to the Maxis station is x12 on the rail and subway, more on others.  Just say they were all 12x and they filled your city, your budget for 'mass transit' is only costing you 1/12th what it should be costing you.  That's a serious effect on your game.  Like using a free money cheat.  That's all cool if you want to go that way, it's your game.  I just like the realism and difficulty preserved by my method better.  His rail station handles 24,000 people and they don't create any extra pollution like they should, which affects desirability.  I think the game should react to a huge capacity station by making it less desirable to live directly next to it, pollution does that.  With his method high wealth sims could care less that there is 30,000 sims using the el-rail station in the tile next door, because no extra pollution; again some realism lost.

 

Here is a slice of the discussion that made him upset:
 

Well, another assumption you're making here was that everything was balanced out at the base capacity. With the vanilla game, it more or less was, except for the fact that the traffic simulator was broken in a major way. Fixing the traffic simulator resulted in a lot more traffic. But we couldn't boost all the network costs associated with the traffic simulator without making the game impossible to play, despite the fact that network capacity works properly. And with more traffic in the cities, stations needed more capacity. So the baseline merely shifted. If station capacity worked properly, there would still be precedent from the traffic simulator for keeping everything else at the current levels. But station capacity is broken; stations either work at full efficiency, or they don't work at all. As this is definitely a game bug, the station capacities were simply set high enough so that this bug doesn't get triggered. A station running at 20% capacity works exactly the same as the same station running at 200% capacity. So why should players pay more for extra capacity? Should they pay more so that their stations don't break because of the bug? It's a bug, a rather serious one at that, and it's our responsibility to see that players don't encounter it. That's why the fixed Maxis stations are not optional. And I don't think you'll find many users who will agree that they should have to pay to avoid game bugs. That's not part of a reasonable simulation.

 
Then I replied with the following:

lol... w/e

Just because network capacities were increased and path finding was improved doesn't mean that new or small neighborhoods immediately saturate the new networks. Your saying that since the network capacities were increased that basically the stations should have been increased at the same time, ignoring the fact that they are not 'only' part of a transportation network. Your saying since that should have happened it wouldn't be fair for the costs, pollution, consumption, and jobs to also increase; that would cost players too much to use. That is why I feel my multiple station solution is better; they don't have to pay more until it becomes logical. I don't agree capacity should have increased by default since the rate of growth wasn't increased, the number of sims in buildings wasn't increased, etc; the immediate demand for extra capacity just doesn't initially exist in a neighborhood/city. I do agree the network capacities increase required stations that accommodate them though, thus my mod.

Also, yes a station at 20% or 200% works the same, and a station shuts down at 300%, I don't see how that is a "bug". To me it is logical that if a station was asked to handle more then what it was designed to accommodate, it would shut it down at some point (they chose this point to be 300%). You can overstuff a bus to a point and it could still come and go, but I know if you jammed 150 people onto one bus it wouldn't go anywhere. Busses being unable to move because of overcrowding would shut a bus stop down. The real transit "bug" that existed in the original game was path finding; even that was intended because slower computers at the time had a hard time crunching the numbers for better path finding. The original capacities weren't a "bug" they were just lower then a lot of people would have wanted for the scale they wanted to build on. One person's idea of a "bug" is another person's understanding of the game and application of logic.

How does it not make sense to you that that if 2 $ jobs are required to handle the original station's 1000 passengers, that 24 $ jobs to handle 17000 passengers is logical? To me it seems to make sense that if you handle more passengers you would need more maintenance workers and perhaps a boss or two. Along those same lines, if you have that many more people and transit vehicles in that area I would think pollution increases (more exhaust from the transit vehicles, more trash from people, more oil runoff into the water table).

Why should players pay for extra capacity? Because I don't think stations "breaking" is a bug, and I personally believe that budget, pollution, power, water, and jobs are important game mechanics. I agree people don't like "bugs". What I don't understand is how it becomes some random modder's "responsibility" to decide what is a "bug" and fix it for others.

I disagree with your logic and philosophy on the subject, and since this is solely based on opinion at this point, lets not argue about it, hijacking this thread anymore. I'm pretty sure the thread was for asking people what mods they use or recommend, not for others to disagree. Simply don't use my mod since you don't like it, or it doesn't make sense to you.

 

 

His next reply was to come here and say my mod is incompatible instead of responding to me or any of the questions, topics, and points I made in my post.

 

The one file I supersede with my own is totally optional in regards to NAM function, and anyone capable of looking at game files could tell you the NAM does not rely on it at all.  Which is also evident by the fact it hadn't been in there till v31+.  My file will add the TSEC times this guy loves so much, and my mod implements a better method for expansion of the Maxis mass transit station capacities (imo).  The file he says you shouldn't allow to be overridden ONLY adjusts capacities and TSEC times of the maxis stations only.  My file does the same except I leave the original Maxis capacities and add companion stations to scale up more logically.
 
Use this mod with the NAM and you'll have 100% positive results.  You shouldn't use the NAM's file loaded last with my mod, but it wouldn't even matter if you did as then you would just have extra stations.  The only thing you lose by not using that file he demands is super high capacities on the default stations.  Which is what you want, so you can scale up capacity as needed while maintaining the game mechanics of associated costs.

 

Of course this is simple to test yourself and see if it causes problems, which it won't.  Simple to uninstall and allow the NAM file to take full effect again.  I'd appreciate someone besides myself saying it doesn't cause problems as 'of course' I'd be saying all of this... 'what do I know?'.  I'm not arguing my mod is great or the best solution (it's only best in my own opinion).  I'm not arguing that my lots are well done or anything like that.  I'm arguing functionality.  My mod works with NAM and NAM works with my mod.

 

Consider this if your still unsure:  if my mod is incompatible with NAMv31+ because it overrides a few values that it's developers intended in game; that same line of thought would mean NAM is incompatible with SimCity 4 because it overrides many values that the game's developers intended be in place.  Of course overriding game values not relied on for function and put in place by others does not equal "incompatibility"; incompatibility would mean files needed for function are being overridden, thus breaking the game.   The values we are all adjusting are meant to be adjusted, and the game kernel (relied on for function) is untouchable.  I don't override any NAM files needed for network function such as the controller files, prop packs, etc.   We are talking about differing implementations of plugins here, that's it!

 

Sorry that's such a long defense of my mod but I hope I made my case.

Regardless of any technical argument one way or another, people are free to install whichever combination of mods they wish to their own PC's. As there is no single authority that dictates modd compatibility, the end users can make that decision for themselves.

 

Let's just leave it there, and try to keep it friendly, okay? :)

Thank's ,

Being able to scale up the Station's/Bus stops/Rail Depo's is great...

 

I have NAM 31.1 as well no problems, removed the file and used DOC's, no problems... replaced NAM file no problems.

 

In fact if they (DMTM/NAM Dev's) could work it out, it should be added or recommended/worked into the NAM (allowing both parties to develop solo)

 

 I think this is a great addition to the NAM. I have no noticeable confliction.

 

I also use Mr Snoopys Toll booths, and a Modern Bus Stops Mod and they work with this to,(NAM/DMTM)

Since the reward of the Grand Central Station is unlocked by at least one train station being at or near maximum capacity, does this mean we will not be able to unlock the Grand Central Station?

Since the reward of the Grand Central Station is unlocked by at least one train station being at or near maximum capacity, does this mean we will not be able to unlock the Grand Central Station?

You know that's an interesting question because honestly I almost never use the thing and when I made the mod to change it's capacity I already had one built or unlocked anyway.  I can't find the script that triggers the unlock, so I don't know exactly how it does it.  With my mod installed I would think that it would still trigger as normal as long as you build a standard station.  Since I don't touch the capacities of the regular stations I only add companion stations I don't see how it would be affected.  Perhaps with the NAM's file that adjusts the main Maxis capacity could cause a problem meeting conditions, that's more likely to cause an issue then my mod.  It might even unlock once any of the add-ons  or the adjusted Maxis get to 300%, I haven't looked at it to see how it unlocks.  I'll have to check this out in the future.  In any case if there was an issue that is what 'you don't deserve it' is for :thumb:.

DMTM v2.3 now 99.99% compatible with all variants of NAM without further user intervention (v2.2 and earlier required the user move 1 NAM file).  The 0.01% that is incompatible is the mentioned conflicting Maxis station capacities file.  All stations now work perfectly in all scenarios scaling up all properties as I intend.  The next update will include buildings to replace the hidden cylinder on the lots.

You're starting a nice little collection of high quality mods and stuff. Keep it up.

Doc's mod performs consistently and exactly as stated.  I consider this plugin essential because it makes large cities much more playable without deviating from the Maxis look and feel and without adding overhead.  I too agree that it should be integrated into the NAM package. Thanks! (5/5)

I just installed the mod and when i load my city it crashes the game. What did i do wrong?? *I have bought sim city 4 deluxe edition on stean

I just wanted to add that I dug up version 2.0 for the 2x3 rail stations which work seamlessly when swapped into version 2.3. I don't think they sacrifice much in realism compared with the 3x3 ones. Again, Great Work!

 

I would like to be sure that this mod is compatible with NAM. Is there some expert who can test this, or has tested this already? I don't like to mess up the hard work that was done by the NAM team....

 

As a member of the NAM Team, I can state authoritatively that this mod is incompatible with the NAM.  The author even recommends removal of an important NAM file that is not optional.  Nothing goes into the NAM without the approval of the NAM Team as a whole, and in this case the capacities of the NAM stations were approved not only by the NAM Team but by the BSC as well.  If you want to use this mod, go ahead, but it should not be used in conjunction with the NAM, as doing so may cause significant problems with your networks.

 

 

At the time I posted the above, Doc posted his rebuttal, and asked me for specifics about the incompatibility with the NAM that I was alleging.  The NAM Team was in the middle of some intensive release cycles at that point, and I told him that I would respond once the pressure was off there.  In the ensuing discussion with Doc, he said that he was no longer interested in my response, so I did not give it a high priority.  However, I think that is important for users of this mod to know exactly what the risks of using it are, and as I have some time finally, I will outline them now.

 

Like many problems, these don't always arise for everyone in every situation, as reports from Doc and others confirm.  But just because this mod may work for some people or even many people does not mean that the problems don't exist, or that they are not serious.  I will outline here the situations in which this mod fails, sometimes with serious consequences.  I will also outline an alternative method that accomplishes the same thing this mod tries to do, but does it in a way that is not only far more comprehensive, but is completely risk-free.

 

First, it's important to understand how station capacities really work (or don't).  For this reason, please read the second half of the post Transit Switch Entry Costs and Station Capacities, specifically the part dealing with station capacities, starting after the faint black line.  This is essentially an official NAM document, as the NAM Team uses this document in various ways, most importantly in terms of setting TSECs and capacities for its stations, as well as being a guide for station builders who wish to build NAM-compatible stations.  It's also important to read the referenced posts in this document, as they provide the evidence upon which the assertions in the main post are based.  It's a fair amount of reading, but it's essential, so I'll wait.

 

[hr]

 

OK, so now you see how station capacities are broken in SC4 and cannot be fixed.  Stations don't even have a well-defined capacity in SC4; the only way to find out at what point a station shuts down completely is through time-intensive experiments with that particular station.  At one point, Doc claimed that this random shutting down of stations was actually a feature, when it is the unanimous consensus of the NAM and BSC Teams that it is a bug (as you no doubt saw in the referenced sources above).  In disputed cases such as this, what's the difference between a bug and a feature?  In pictorial terms:

 

 

To be a bit more formal, the following is an excerpt form a common definition of a bug:

• The application displays data inconsistent with the specified rules; or
• The application is missing functionality specified in the specification;

For the first point, station congestion qualifies because the color of stations in the congestion view is meaningless, despite the documentation; the "Service Quality" in the station query varies even though the station's service quality does not; and the station capacity referred to in the station query is not the station capacity at all.

 

For the second point, station capacity does not degrade as documented, even though the implementation of such degradation (such as actually happens for networks) would be rather trivial.

 

Therefore, we are observing a bug here.  In the documented behavior of stations, they are never supposed to shut down completely.  They are supposed to behave like networks, where the capacity degrades gradually in a documented way, reaching a low of 30% of nominal capacity.  But they don't.  Furthermore, there is nothing to inform the user of this, nor to inform the user that stations fail catastrophically at an indeterminate point.

 

Therefore, the NAM Team has set station capacities at a point where this catastrophic failure should never happen.  The phrase "Service Quality" has also been changed to "Reserve Capacity".  With these changes, stations appear to behave reasonably to users.

 

Doc's mod undoes all the NAM changes.

 

So what are the possible negative effects of Doc's mod?  First of all, the extremely low capacity of the Maxis stations (2000 at the highest) makes them extremely vulnerable to overcapacity shutdowns.  As time goes by, this will become more and more of a problem.  For example, the newer NAM traffic simulator that was recently released will tend to increase network traffic, and require higher capacity stations.  Other work that the NAM Team is currently engaged in will also require higher station capacities.  For this reason, the formulas in Transit Switch Entry Costs and Station Capacities have recently been updated to provide higher station capacities.

 

The following problems with overcapacity shutdowns come to mind, based on my own experience with the Maxis stations:

 

• * You may be working on one side of a city, having fully developed another part, when traffic in the developed part of the city reaches a point where the stations start to shut down.  This is impossible to determine from the Traffic Congestion Data View, since both a highly utilized station that is functioning normally and a station that has passed its (unknown) capacity limit and shut down completely would both show up as red.  But the effects of the two types of stations on the city would be completely different.  The first red station would function completely normally, with no reduction in service.  On the other hand, if the overcapacity red station is a bus, subway, or rail station, no further transitions happen at that station.  As the various parts of SC4 are highly interconnected, this can lead to various problems far away from the inoperative stations, and the player may be at a loss to figure out what is causing the problems.
• * Even worse, if the inoperative station is an el rail or monorail station, the shutdown of that station will effectively cause the station to act as a roadblock instead of a station, shutting down the corresponding network completely between that station and the next in line on both sides.  Sims may then try using the next station in line instead, but if they do in sufficient numbers, that station will shut down as well.  It is not hard to get large sections of a network to shut down this way.

 

Now Doc's mod addresses these problems by allowing you to upgrade your stations.  There are some major problems with that strategy, however:

 

• * The stations may have reached their overcapacity state because the city has grown up around them - this is very typical.  At this point, though, especially for the smaller stations, they may be hidden from view in all rotations in which case (except for the subway stations) it may be impossible to get rid of them.  They therefore can't be replaced with larger capacity stations, and the loss of these stations' functionality becomes permanent unless you bulldoze large buildings around them.
• * For the el rail and monorail stations, once the city has grown up around them, even if they are still visible and can be bulldozed, it is very often impossible to replace them.  The reason for this is that the adjoining buildings and roads lock the ground into place, and the ground does not have sufficient "give" to plop a new station and successfully hook it up to its network.
• * The above problem is made even worse if the el rail or monorail stations are hidden from view.  Whole sections of land around the stations may need to be bulldozed and flattened before it can be made usable for the network.  The section of land that needs to be bulldozed is often rather large, as networks will maintain their connectivity in configurations that otherwise would not allow new networks to be connected.  There are also secondary effects; the bulldozing may require sections of roads to be bulldozed, and then it may be impossible to rejoin those, requiring even more bulldozing, etc.

I have seen all of these effects in my own cities.  They are not difficult to generate.

 

Some people may be willing to put up with these risks if this is the only way to pay more for higher capacity.  But it isn't.  As I mentioned near the beginning of this post, there is an alternative method that accomplishes the same thing this mod tries to do, but does it in a way that is not only far more comprehensive, but is completely risk-free.  This method utilizes the Traffic Simulator Configuration Tool (TSCT), which comes with the NAM.  To pay more for transportation as traffic rises, all you have to do is to increase the numbers in the row entitled "Monthly Costs per Network Tile".  The result is the same as Doc's mod, except that it affects all travel on the specified networks - not just travel to and from the Maxis stations.  And this method has none of the problems outlined above.

 

Doc, you have shown through your other creations that you are a very talented guy, and I know that there's plenty more that you an do for this game.  However, this mod is not helpful for the reasons I have described above, although many players will not realize the subtler implications here and use the mod anyway.  For the reasons I have described above, this mod will never be included in the NAM.  Doc, if after reading this post you still plan to offer this mod, then on behalf of the NAM Team I would at least ask you to remove all language on the download page and in the mod itself stating or implying that this mod is compatible with the NAM.  It most definitely is not, and you will find no dissensions from the NAM Team on this issue.  To state that this mod is compatible with the NAM under these circumstances is merely misleading people; it also implies that you think you know more about the NAM than the people who built it.  So I would kindly request that you remove these statements, and put your excellent talent to work at better things.

I'm glad to see are still people like me in here, who apreciate the old school MAXIS style!

Is true that is nothing new about this LOT in here, but we really appreciate your effort.

I don't use this LOT, but I'm sure are a lot of other people who have old PC's and will love to have sothing like your LOT, for sure.

Good job! And please, kipe trying to build MAXIS style LOT's!

any report of conflict with the new NAMv32?

I've always believed very strongly in this mod.

I'm also still very much for including this with the NAM.