Total Overhaul Mod Thoughts

[boformer 3,169]

1 hour ago, Koesj said:

I feel like you're kinda speaking to me here 

By what measure? Tris or pixels per square cell? 

No idea, I never looked at your LODs. You can easily compare your buildings with the default assets using the Mesh Info mod.

For an average growable building, I would target these texture sizes:

• LOD0: Something between 256x256 and 512x512
• LOD1: Something between 32x32 and 128x128 (64x64 is usually sufficient for a baked texture)

The LOD1 mesh must be heavily optimized (less than 100 tris), detail can be baked into normal maps. The optimizer tools of blender or 3dsmax are very good tools for this. An optimized LOD1decreases loading times. Also, don't forget that this mesh is even displayed when the player zooms out very far (so there might be thousands of buildings on screen, and 1,000 x 100 tris = 100,000 tris)

[Koesj 659]

Waaaait, C:S can do two LODs?

[Avanya 2,605]

I have a bad habit of doing 1024x1024 textures on all my buildings even though some could prob do with less (I often forget until I have uploaded it and put in the stats ). LODs below 100 for houses should be pretty easy - round shapes would be the only area I'd see a problem, but for residential I doubt that'll come up that often. I'm slowly going through my first assets (growable ore and oil), so I'll get a chance to see how much better (but still low) LODs I can do with funny shapes.  

[Ocram's Razr 963]

1 hour ago, Koesj said:

Waaaait, C:S can do two LODs?

LOD0 is the main mesh, the full-sized one, the high polygon count one.

[Koesj 659]

Ohh okay we're doing jargon again 

[boformer 3,169]

Last night I checked what happens with residents when a building upgrades, when there are problems in a building and when you bulldoze a building.

• When a building upgrades, families just stay in there and their wealth level automatically increases (but luckily the wealth level is stored in the citizen data, so it is possible to change this behaviour).
• When there are major problems, families as a whole will try to move into a new home (as long as you don't bulldoze the building)
• When you bulldoze a building, the families living there will be disband and the single citizens will search for a new home as "singles" (even the children...)

Like explained in the game's wiki, there is a difference between singles and families:
Low-density residential buildings try to acquire 90% families and 10% singles, while high-density buildings look for 90% singles and 10% families. One family can have up to 5 members.

PS: This opened my eyes. Thousands of families were destroyed by my bulldozers

[Ocram's Razr 963]

57 minutes ago, boformer said:

Difference between singles and families:
Low-density residential buildings try to acquire 90% families and 10% singles, while high-density buildings look for 90% singles and 10% families. One family can have up to 5 members.

If and when you implement medium density, I recommend you make low density try to acquire 100% families, high density try to acquire 100% singles, and medium density try to acquire 50/50. This will allow for high density buildings to have far more households and low density have far fewer while maintaining realistic populations. It would also mean that 1x1 to 2x2 housing without yards would become medium density because singles would prefer them but desperate families could move in.

It would also be cool if you could make it so that 2-3 students could be considered 1 single.

[hitzu 139]

7 hours ago, OcramsRzr said:

If and when you implement medium density, I recommend you make low density try to acquire 100% families, high density try to acquire 100% singles, and medium density try to acquire 50/50.

Excuse me, but this is very narrow look at how things are IRL. There are many places in the world where people live in high rises with children and even with grandchildren and it is pretty normal there, I mean it's not an option only for poors.

[boformer 3,169]

8 hours ago, OcramsRzr said:

If and when you implement medium density, I recommend you make low density try to acquire 100% families, high density try to acquire 100% singles, and medium density try to acquire 50/50. This will allow for high density buildings to have far more households and low density have far fewer while maintaining realistic populations. It would also mean that 1x1 to 2x2 housing without yards would become medium density because singles would prefer them but desperate families could move in.

It would also be cool if you could make it so that 2-3 students could be considered 1 single.

90/10 is just a goal. If no singles are found, families will fill the empty slots. Setting it to 100/0 would remove this possibility.

@hitzu As I said, 90/10 is not a strict value, it just makes it more likely that singles move in. There could be different values for every wealth level and density. How would you set the values?

[hitzu 139]

@boformer 100/0 is unrealistic indeed. Of course there is a worldwide tendency for families with children to live in their own house. I can't say about proportion, but if there is lack of detached houses on the map then the families would occupy all of them anyway as long as their demand is higher, isn't it?

[boformer 3,169]

Exactly. The question is what will happen when there are 10 free slots in a low-density home, 10 free slots in a medium-density home and 10 free slots in a high-density home.

And 15 singles + 15 families waiting to move in. Who will move into which building?

[wallacet 336]

10 hours ago, boformer said:

PS: This opened my eyes. Thousands of families were destroyed by my bulldozers

Looks like family bonds can't stop progress!

[hitzu 139]

Well, I think they appear on the list in a random order so when they have a choice the distribution would be according the proportion of their demands.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

11 hours ago, boformer said:

90/10 is just a goal. If no singles are found, families will fill the empty slots. Setting it to 100/0 would remove this possibility.

@hitzu As I said, 90/10 is not a strict value, it just makes it more likely that singles move in. There could be different values for every wealth level and density. How would you set the values?

Never mind what I said about 100/0 if it removes the possibility but I still think medium density should be 50/50 for middle-class.

High wealth: high density should be 95% single, medium density should be 80% single, low density should be 80% families

Low wealth: low density should be 99% families, medium density 80% families, high density 40% families.

Seniors/retirees and students should prefer medium density.

[andreharv 1,197]

Just a question...what does the proportion of families to singles within a building contribute to this game? Other than the fact that if not set efficiently, the buildings won't be filled?

[boformer 3,169]

Buildings will always fill up. The actual difference is probably that more young people live in high density homes, which behave differently than adults, seniors and children.

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

I'm just glad all Cims are not homeless leaving work to the nearest vacant lot

[Darf 1,439]

To be honest, would be kind of cool to simulate homeless people as a group. It would reflect the state of your city better if for example you do have a lot of demand for cheap land and there aren't enough jobs in the city.

[Dezelles 24]

Some suggestions for this project, if it's not too late...

The current project is huge, so, most of my proposals must be later developed or used.
Most of these ideas would not even be developed in this mod but in additional mods: other huge works must be started on the services and the supply chain... However, I think that it would be preferable to anticipate by integrating the parameters (if it's practicable) as soon as possible.

LOCALIZATION
2 aspects on this point:
1/ Kinda like with Terrain themes, it's possible to define various simulations according to countries. American and European are very different but... Swedish and Italian also! It is totally independent from the map or from the environment.
2/ All the texts, drafted initially in English, are accessible (for example in a xml file) to be able to be translated. And no text on buildings: only props can have texts what will allow to adapt them... in future.

The current trend is the ecology. An ecological development for C:S contains 5 axes: recycling, vehicles (biofuel or hybrid), energy-saving buildings, organic farming and local consumption. Ecologist is a criterion associated with the families which impacts on the choice of house and on the consumption.

Growables & "Upgrading"
Buildings will not disappear when you change zone density OR Zone Type: an industrial building can be rehabilitated in commercial or residential, warehouse in cinema for example. In fact, I imagined that could be a stage of growth of lot... The mayor must update the lot (not automatic system): or he can to re-zone the lot, and if combination exists, the lot adapts itself; or a button to building info panel's header indicates when building can be to renovate.
Of course, several conditions are required: age of the building, wealth, occupation (abandoned?)... and architectural style! And, obviously, Asset must have several zones's versions...
Note: same system must be developp for ploppable which, as with Ploppable RICO, are all functional.

Zone Types & Zoning
Every plot have always the parameters for each zoning (it's also a solution for a previous suggestion).
Initially, the mod use only one zone, but in a upcoming development, certain buildings could have several zones : it exists building with commercial, offices and residential... I also think at black market... But, at present, it's an extra work too complex...

Low-wealth low-density residential buildings do not require electricity or water (though they prefer it).
Certain buildings (all densities, all zones and all wealths), with appropriates equipments, can produce a little of electricity (solar panel or wind turbine) or/and can reduce power consumption (thermal insulation). That can also be connected to a policy. As for the geothermal (with DLC Snowfall), buildings can have several sources of energy: electricity, geothermal, gas, fuel oil or wood.

Difficulty & Unlocks
Challenges are optional: possibilty to start with all unlock and large budget (customizable). Certain players wait for only more realism in the simulation. No change for rules of demand but the player can simply build his city as he wants...

Thank you for having read to me up to here... And all my apologies for the quality of my English.

[boformer 3,169]

10 hours ago, Dezelles said:

Buildings will not disappear when you change zone density OR Zone Type

I agree with this. But the "cinema in warehouse" idea is out of scope. I want to make things easier to see, not harder. An industrial building in a residential zones would still function as and industrial building, until the land value is so high that an investor decides to bulldoze it to build a residential building.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

If you manage to add new zones, I'd be ecstatic! I'd love to see your Total Overhaul work with your future field mod. I want to see the following:

Residential overhaul

3 wealth levels plus unique building for Elite megamansion (one high wealth household, generates extra property taxes (or negative upkeep), helps high density, high wealth offices nearby) and event-driven poverty/squatters

Housing that can have a strong preference for one wealth level and a strong preference for a 50/50 split (to simulate intermediate wealth levels), in addition to the weak preference for one wealth level described

Low, medium, and high density housing with each getting 5 growth levels but with medium 1 equivalent to low 4 and medium 5 equivalent to high 1. This is to decide on whether to try to house mostly families vs 50/50 families & singles at growth stages 4 & 5 or mostly singles vs 50/50 families & singles at growth stage 8.

Industry overhaul:

1) Existing heavy industry (dirty, medium, high-tech) should get 5 density levels but still always pollute to a certain degree and has higher productivity of food and lumber at the expense of pollution (intensive agriculture, intensive logging+silviculture, bigger & dirtier factories) at higher growth/density levels (and toxic but highly productive oil and ore refineries at level 5)

2) New light industry (warehouse, clean manufacturing, and green high-tech) that never pollutes, uses big trucks, and gets more productive and higher quality (warehouse doesn't produce, manufacturing produces level 2 goods at 80% productivity, and green high tech produces level 3 goods at 160% productivity) but has ridiculously low productivity of oil and ore when specialized. It should have 5 density levels, with small warehouses and workshops with parking (or greenspace) to huge factories with built-in warehouses or huge warehouses with built-in workshops. Specialized industry should have 2 extraction levels and 3 refining levels with oil and ore being competitively productive when fully staffed with well-educated workers at the highest level (2 for extraction, 5 for refining) to level 1 and 3 specialized heavy industry.

3) Big fields should be able to be used for extraction or zoned parks. Zoned parks would provide a land value boost at a radius defined by the size of the park and provide as much parking as demanded within a two block radius. I would also like you to do away with purse cars.

 

Edit: I will gladly go through all the functions to make a truly upper class distinct from upper-middle class (upper class as it is now), and 3 new education levels.

The schools will be primary (preK-5), secondary (6-9), preparatory (10-12), community college (2 year degree), university (4 year degree), and prestigious university (grad school). The education levels will be as follows: Illiterate, Uneducated, Literate, Educated, Well Educated, Very Well Educated, Highly Educated.

Once you separate housing density from wealth level and allow different jobs to give different pay scales, it will become possible to add more nuances to the economy.

  Edited April 25, 2016 by OcramsRzr  
Update

[Epicpants 0]

i've travelled and lived in many parts of the world.  I've seen many ways of doing things and living and organizing society and cities, and different ideas for happiness and what is expected and tolerated.  but a lot of games seem to be focused on just one way of thinking.  CSL seems to offer the ability for us to step beyond that.  I see people form all over the world creating cities and assets and modding this game, and a lot of people wanting to try out different ideas.  i think that spirit needs to be developed further.

talking about changing the economy AI?  instead of wealth levels, what about something based on actual wages?  food is what everyone needs, (and we need more agriculture represented in CSL), yet world-wide it seems that those who feed us are paid poorly.  i've always wanted to be able to base the economy on paying a decent living wage to the food providers.  then we have other resource gathering, transport costs, manufacturing, building and on up the web.  i'd like to be able to play with wage equality vs inequality. then able make the prices of everything on this base framework and see how the wealth distribution and health of the economy fares.  this game is already setup for the individuals in the city in several ways I think it can be expanded on.  is there anything in the game that tracks the cost of vehicle ownership vs taking public transport?  that can be part of the decision making process.  

of course the transport system needs some work.  everyone already knows this.  we have many different kinds of roads and rail systems, but why?  any road surface should be able to handle any kind of ped, bike, animal, car/truck, service, etc.. vehicle.  in fact there doesn't even need to be a road for some of these modes of transport, I can walk in a field or drive my truck out in it.  i know that would mess with path finding the way it is currently implemented.  but the paths could be between destinations and something like this could use like the wildlife hotspot at the destination.  rail systems could be combined too, as tracks can be shared, and any of them should be able to go undergournd as well as elevated.  and yes i'd like to see monorail and maglev. i think any network that is put done should have an option panel that you can use to determine what types of traffic you want on it.  and the skins/textures should be able to be changed.  instead right now we have 1000 different assets for each individual set of pre-ordained variables.  i think all of our assets etc should have all their underlying options/properties available when you select them for easy modification, more like integrating the asset editor into the city building part.  i know mod tools has some of that functionality, but not for everything that I can find yet.  for instance you can't just click on a road like you can to select a building.

and yes parking and pocket cars.  of course many of use would like to make a city that does not have private cars.  hell i'd like to make an arcology with the game.  also the way that people populate the city is too limited. why only by certain kinds of networks? its funny that buildings will build without any people or vehicles too.

as for buildings, i see no need to have separate concepts like ploppablbe vs growable and RICO.  any building should be able to be placed anywhere, regardless of if there is a road there or whatever.  and IRL not many buildings "grow" per se, but are knocked down and rebuilt.  and people move often when they can afford to.  and the ideas of families vs singles in certain types of residences seems too limited to one countries mindset about living arrangements.

i enjoy seeing the life of the city/regions that are built and definitely want to see more of it.

has anyone started mapping the code?  i'm just starting the process of trying to understand it myself and if someone already had laid-out a framework of the classes and interconnections and logic that could go a long way for new modders to learn, and also let advanced modders see more about how these major changes might go as well.

cheers

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Driving over non-networked area cannot be purposely coded into Cities Skylines (AFAIK) for similar reasons as to why it is impossible in SimCity 2013. It happens by accident when roads are destroyed.

All buildings can be turned ploppable using the RICO mod so that request has already been fulfilled. 

Adjusting wages will be a matter of replacing a few values once the mod is released but it is probably too early in development to even be usable.

In the USA, farmers receive extensive government subsidies and most farms are owned by corporations. Grains and legumes can be harvested with machines, allowing few workers for great output. Fruits, vegetables, and other produce which must be picked at the right ripeness is more labor intensive but that's why they are more expensive. However, the agribusinesses in California saw decreased revenue when they were unwilling to raise wages to equilibrium market value and a sizeable portion of their crops were left unharvested. Farms will either need to raise wages (since they cannot rely on undocumented or migrant workers today) or utilize fruit picking robots (which are in the early stages of development).

[boformer 3,169]

On 17.8.2016 at 7:22 AM, Epicpants said:

has anyone started mapping the code?  i'm just starting the process of trying to understand it myself and if someone already had laid-out a framework of the classes and interconnections and logic that could go a long way for new modders to learn, and also let advanced modders see more about how these major changes might go as well.

Sadly there is no documentation of the game's classes. Maybe I will start creating one. It would be a big help for all people who want to mod the game. If you got any specific questions, message me on Steam.

 

[KaligrafyLeo 2]

Here you go with a class diagram of Assembly-CSharp.dll

Next step: documenting attributes and methods

cities_skyline_Assembly_CSharp.dll_class_diagram.pdf

[KaligrafyLeo 2]

My goal is to heavily modify the Assembly to allow existing networks and cities simulations. I work for a transportation engineering research center and we would like to use Cities Skyline to simulate transportation systems in real cities. I plan to use some time to document the classes so all can benefit.

cities_skyline_Assembly_CSharp.dll_class_diagram.pdf

[Tim The Terrible 586]

Holy sh*t @KaligrafyLeo, I don't know what it is and I'm probably not going to use it, but I want to thank you for sharing it with the community! Can't wait to see what this may bring

[HipHop01 21]

This sounds like a great idea. Could you also make age vary on certain things like desirability, nearby transit. Like young people go to areas that are near commercial and transport, most families will be in areas like the suburbs where there is quietness. older people will usually live the furthest out or the closest to the more urban areas. And age could affect their interests like most young people might want to go to a public park with physical activities like basketball and tennis, while older people would want a park where they can relax and sit. 

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I understand Boformer is too busy to continue but does anyone know if it's possible to add more levels to existing zones? What would I have to do to add levels and seperate wealth from level?

[Ocram's Razr 963]

OK, I've decided not to do any parts of this mod until deeper zones is fully released. Instead, I will figure out how to add more education levels and hook wealth to job.

 

EDIT: Which I just realised accomplishes the task of unhooking wealth from house. My mod will require assets from the workshop to be fully functional. Once I accomplish that, I will work on seperating wealth from level. Level 4 and 5 low density will be like medium density as well as level 1 high density.

Why no medium density? Because no one has figured out a way to add new zone colors.