Buildings, roads & population limits - time to lift?

[ReneXL 16]

Buildings limit is one of the most troublesome and should be 64k.

[Linoa06 1,374]

Is this still going on?

[MassDaGod 16]

I think that my words got misunderstood. What I tried to say is that even though a game is targeted at the average computer, basically making sure they can target as many people as possible, there should be an option, as mentioned above (sc4 had small, medium, and large city tiles) for different players. I dont understand a lot about coding, I didnt specialize in that, but I do know a lot about business, fortunately I have the credentials, and the experience (undergrad in accounting, and masters degree in international business, EY business analyst) to understand that if you limit your high end users to something that works for the average consumer, you are going to end up losing them. Now I know that this example might not apply 100% to this since the high end players pay the same price, but they do invest more into their equipments, which means they are expecting to get more out of the experience, and they are willing to spend more in order to get the most out of it. If I have a decent computer, I will take it as it is. If I have a great computer, I want to get the best out of it. If this is the best out of it, then they created a hype that they cant sustain, and unfortunately, they are gonna lose a part of their costumers for their next release.

 

I'm SO happy you stated this. Especially the bold part.

Some of the lower end computer owners in this topic cannot seem to grasp this.

 

[Linoa06 1,374]

I think that my words got misunderstood. What I tried to say is that even though a game is targeted at the average computer, basically making sure they can target as many people as possible, there should be an option, as mentioned above (sc4 had small, medium, and large city tiles) for different players. I dont understand a lot about coding, I didnt specialize in that, but I do know a lot about business, fortunately I have the credentials, and the experience (undergrad in accounting, and masters degree in international business, EY business analyst) to understand that if you limit your high end users to something that works for the average consumer, you are going to end up losing them. Now I know that this example might not apply 100% to this since the high end players pay the same price, but they do invest more into their equipments, which means they are expecting to get more out of the experience, and they are willing to spend more in order to get the most out of it. If I have a decent computer, I will take it as it is. If I have a great computer, I want to get the best out of it. If this is the best out of it, then they created a hype that they cant sustain, and unfortunately, they are gonna lose a part of their costumers for their next release.

 

I'm SO happy you stated this. Especially the bold part.

Some of the lower end computer owners in this topic cannot seem to grasp this.

 

Some of the lower end computers owners simply don't have the cash to upgrade so easily. Fancy economic principles in the video game industry meet average Joe who isn't going to upgrade to a gaming rig because a couple of rich kids greedily want more out of an already correct game experience.

Y'know, adult life, where even saving doesn't necessarily get you enough money to get a good PC unless you borrow, along with the associated risks.

  Edited October 28, 2015 by Linoa06  

[Turjan 1,048]

Some of the lower end computers owners simply don't have the cash to upgrade so easily. Fancy economic principles in the video game industry meet average Joe who isn't going to upgrade to a gaming rig because a couple of rich kids greedily want more out of an already correct game experience.

Not sure what not being happy when held back by artificial limits has to do with greed? What's greedy about that?

And I'm sure we are not looking at "couple of rich kids" here. The average age of computer game players is 31 (some statistics put that number even higher), an age where most people are gainfully employed. Here on the simulation game forums, many people are much older. We have quite a few retirees here.

[QuantumChicken 89]

The good news for me is I fixed a traffic issue and now my compa is running nicely. I ordered up 2 new CPUs (Dual quad-cores) for my new mobo, and then I should be able to hit the limits. At that point I will have a reason to whine about it, but until then, there is no need to. What is weird, I can run Cities XXL much, much better than this game on my compa, and I play both games at 1440p with all graphics cranked up to the max.

[ethansprang 41]

Once again, there seems to be the assumption that there could be an "unlimited" version of the game that doesn't affect slower computers.  This is clearly false.

The relevant data structures are arrays, not integers or floats.  Why are they arrays?  So they can be searched and manipulated. If you have larger arrays, those operations take longer. The problem is that the array size has to be a fixed value, for all users. And these are the fundamental core of the game - the building and road lists. So an array large enough for 25 tiles worth of buildings could be built into the core game, but that over-sized array would still be used in a 9 tile city.  And even if the array is never filled in 9 tiles, so that the last half of it is "empty" - i.e., place-holder data - all those empty array elements are still SEARCHED every time - and that's what creates the processor loads. That's the performance issue.

Quite simply, for this "simple solution", you would need to create an entire separate executable of the game for 25 tiles without impacting 9-tile players.  And, because of the Unity restrictions, that still only gets you to a 64K array.  Anything bigger requires a totally separate layer of overhead to split "Buildings" into multiple categories like pylons, residential, and commercial, or to split "Roads" into water, power, bus routes, pedestrian lanes, and so on.

If it were easy, they would do it in a heartbeat. Even if it were hard, but they could do it without affecting min-spec 9-tile players, they would do it.

[Turjan 1,048]

And even if the array is never filled in 9 tiles, so that the last half of it is "empty" - i.e., place-holder data - all those empty array elements are still SEARCHED every time - and that's what creates the processor loads. That's the performance issue.

Given the performance curve the game displays, this is simply not a relevant point. The performance goes down with actual elements, not with possible ones. In principle, of all the limits this game possesses, it's the building limit and/or the vehicle limit that get hit first (the latter only if your city has issues of some kind). For buildings, a 64k limit would probably be enough for 25 tiles (you could still hit it, but it would be difficult). I'm sure it wouldn't really impact performance much. However, the vehicle limit would have to be raised to make this happen, and I'm sure this would have quite a performance impact. Then again, we are talking actual agents, not possible ones.

[Linoa06 1,374]

Some of the lower end computers owners simply don't have the cash to upgrade so easily. Fancy economic principles in the video game industry meet average Joe who isn't going to upgrade to a gaming rig because a couple of rich kids greedily want more out of an already correct game experience.

Not sure what not being happy when held back by artificial limits has to do with greed? What's greedy about that?

And I'm sure we are not looking at "couple of rich kids" here. The average age of computer game players is 31 (some statistics put that number even higher), an age where most people are gainfully employed. Here on the simulation game forums, many people are much older. We have quite a few retirees here.

Employed doesn't mean you can afford a new gaming rig, if that was the case we wouldn't have an occupy movement. 

[Ryno917 102]

I think that my words got misunderstood. What I tried to say is that even though a game is targeted at the average computer, basically making sure they can target as many people as possible, there should be an option, as mentioned above (sc4 had small, medium, and large city tiles) for different players. I dont understand a lot about coding, I didnt specialize in that, but I do know a lot about business, fortunately I have the credentials, and the experience (undergrad in accounting, and masters degree in international business, EY business analyst) to understand that if you limit your high end users to something that works for the average consumer, you are going to end up losing them. Now I know that this example might not apply 100% to this since the high end players pay the same price, but they do invest more into their equipments, which means they are expecting to get more out of the experience, and they are willing to spend more in order to get the most out of it. If I have a decent computer, I will take it as it is. If I have a great computer, I want to get the best out of it. If this is the best out of it, then they created a hype that they cant sustain, and unfortunately, they are gonna lose a part of their costumers for their next release.

 

I'm SO happy you stated this. Especially the bold part.

Some of the lower end computer owners in this topic cannot seem to grasp this.

 

The thing that isn't being grasped is that some core limitations are not possible to break/raise for those on high end PCs without having to have two separate versions of the game. That is what's holding it back.

[Klyte45 172]

This isn't 100% true...
CSL is made with Unity. The scene what the city is loaded is separated from the rest.

So, to made a "Metropolis Mode", just need to create a copy of this scene and tune the limits. Few adjusts would be made to make the game constants variable, or to assign the constants for the Metropolis Mode value in a extended class, or whatever like it.

Of course, cities created in a mode probably couldn't be loaded in the Metropolis Mode and vice versa.

[cmdp123789 710]

I think that my words got misunderstood. What I tried to say is that even though a game is targeted at the average computer, basically making sure they can target as many people as possible, there should be an option, as mentioned above (sc4 had small, medium, and large city tiles) for different players. I dont understand a lot about coding, I didnt specialize in that, but I do know a lot about business, fortunately I have the credentials, and the experience (undergrad in accounting, and masters degree in international business, EY business analyst) to understand that if you limit your high end users to something that works for the average consumer, you are going to end up losing them. Now I know that this example might not apply 100% to this since the high end players pay the same price, but they do invest more into their equipments, which means they are expecting to get more out of the experience, and they are willing to spend more in order to get the most out of it. If I have a decent computer, I will take it as it is. If I have a great computer, I want to get the best out of it. If this is the best out of it, then they created a hype that they cant sustain, and unfortunately, they are gonna lose a part of their costumers for their next release.

 

I'm SO happy you stated this. Especially the bold part.

Some of the lower end computer owners in this topic cannot seem to grasp this.

 

Some of the lower end computers owners simply don't have the cash to upgrade so easily. Fancy economic principles in the video game industry meet average Joe who isn't going to upgrade to a gaming rig because a couple of rich kids greedily want more out of an already correct game experience.

Y'know, adult life, where even saving doesn't necessarily get you enough money to get a good PC unless you borrow, along with the associated risks.

Again, you are missing the whole point.

Before I list some of the reasons, I have to remind you that when referring to the other members, you have to make sure that the words you use to communicate with them are not offensive and do not judge the person/people whatsoever. Calling your fellow members "greedy rich kids" is not the correct way. I talked about that in my previous post. Consider this your personal first and last warning. Next time, you will be given a penalty. Simtropolis is a community where we discuss, exchange, and develop ideas, we share our opinions, and work together towards objectives that will benefit the community, or that "we think" will benefit the community. It will not be tolerated the use of offensive language under no circumstance.

Now, continuing with my point:

1. I'm not saying everybody should be forced to upgrade their computers. What I said is that people with better computers expect to get more and are willing to pay more.

2. There are certain technicalities that are too specific to change, and sometimes a clear explanation or a good reason not to those changes are required to maintain the client happy. When there seems to be no explanation or not a good reason not to apply certain changes that will benefit "SOME" players, then of course things like this are going to happen.

3. Increasing certain aspects of the game is possible, yet that does not mean that they could make the overall experience better or worse, but it is something that definitely needs to be tested.

4. Finally, we want ways to make the game better. Having different level of users is always going to be a problem because of the different equipments, yet that is not reason enough to limit certain players to benefit the majority, further more, there should be a way to provide settings that work with the regular users and then a certain type of setting that could work with the minority of users with higher end rigs. Is that possible with this game? We don't know, Maxis clearly had an answer to that, different tiles sizes.

To me, the devs created this fantastic game, where they managed to get all the things that SC4 was missing, yet they were so focused on doing so, that they forgot to include the features that SC4 already had right and that we loved so much.

[MassDaGod 16]

I think that my words got misunderstood. What I tried to say is that even though a game is targeted at the average computer, basically making sure they can target as many people as possible, there should be an option, as mentioned above (sc4 had small, medium, and large city tiles) for different players. I dont understand a lot about coding, I didnt specialize in that, but I do know a lot about business, fortunately I have the credentials, and the experience (undergrad in accounting, and masters degree in international business, EY business analyst) to understand that if you limit your high end users to something that works for the average consumer, you are going to end up losing them. Now I know that this example might not apply 100% to this since the high end players pay the same price, but they do invest more into their equipments, which means they are expecting to get more out of the experience, and they are willing to spend more in order to get the most out of it. If I have a decent computer, I will take it as it is. If I have a great computer, I want to get the best out of it. If this is the best out of it, then they created a hype that they cant sustain, and unfortunately, they are gonna lose a part of their costumers for their next release.

 

I'm SO happy you stated this. Especially the bold part.

Some of the lower end computer owners in this topic cannot seem to grasp this.

 

Some of the lower end computers owners simply don't have the cash to upgrade so easily. Fancy economic principles in the video game industry meet average Joe who isn't going to upgrade to a gaming rig because a couple of rich kids greedily want more out of an already correct game experience.

Y'know, adult life, where even saving doesn't necessarily get you enough money to get a good PC unless you borrow, along with the associated risks.

1) There is no "rich kid" here. I'm an adult. I make over 28yo making over 170K (USD) a year.

My opinion is that they should take the limits off. Or at least make the limitations moddable.

Do me a favor and don't judge me for my opinion. Thank you.

[QuantumChicken 89]

Calling people "rich, greedy, kids" is not a very nice thing to do and is very judge-mental. I am personally happy with my computer and I do agree, there is an issue with C:SL and its' limits. I have hit a couple already (traffic and roads) and I think CO needs to address the issue. As Klyte45 says, there needs to be a mode for metropolis for the more powerful computers. Cities XL/XXL is also Unity engine, or at least a fork of it and look how much can be done there? So this limit nonsense is questionable to me and many others. What CO is stating about "Supercomputers" is invalid because a supercomputer is not available to the residential market nor is the power grid for one. Take Titan-1 for example, how CO says it is that there are people who possess a computer like that is totally invalid. "Megacomputer" seems more appropriate for the term, but not "supercomputer". I guess the devs have never seen or heard of North American corporate computers. Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I just don't like the limits I have hit and with traffic management perfection, my computer just laughs at the game now.

[Roadman20 601]

Personally, I think that the limits on roads and buildings should be raised at some point.  While I haven't reached those limits at this time since I haven't built out past the vanilla 3x3 area, I think my upper mid-tier PC can handle the additional stress of increased simulation.  Really, the only issues I've experienced is increased RAM usage as more mods continue to redefine my gameplay experience, although I bumped up to 16 GB well before C:SL was out.  I wouldn't consider myself "rich" either, although I would say I am definitely "financially secure" to make prudent PC upgrades as needed.

  Edited October 30, 2015 by Roadman20  

[QuantumChicken 89]

Yes! That is the correct term, not rich. My compa could handle the stress of an increased limits also now since source engine (Team Fortress 2 with the weapon RoF @100%) taxes my system even more than C:SL at the given time. EDIT: I wonder if C:SL will support 64GB FB-DIMM in 8-channel mode, or if it will only read it as quad-channel...

  Edited October 30, 2015 by KillrChicken  
Bacon. Nothing more.

[Turjan 1,048]

My compa could handle the stress of an increased limits also now since source engine (Team Fortress 2 with the weapon RoF @100%) taxes my system even more than C:SL at the given time. EDIT: I wonder if C:SL will support 64GB FB-DIMM in 8-channel mode, or if it will only read it as quad-channel...

Memory seems to be more of an issue that decides how much custom content you are able to use. The basic game doesn't actually need that much, even with a large city, and tends to stay within the framework of the minimum specs (4 GB). With custom content, that easily more than triples. However, big cities tax your CPU. I doubt that an FPS needs more processing power than a simulation.

[Klyte45 172]

Memory is useful only for use many assets inside the game. Doesn't affect strongly the simulation.

Just for info: CX(X)L uses a self-made engine, which was started to build in 2006 in the Monte Cristo. They only improved the engine in the last version of the game, because before it was heavy to run in avg pc's from early 2010's (mainly because the game doesn't had native multicore support). I think if they used Unity or any other engine, the game could be better than it is today, but in that time those engines didn't exist yet.

And about be rich, it's not my case. I think my pc is only "above average" for US/EU common configs. Only thing it's out of the curve is the memory (24GB), but this only helps to run CSL with a lot of assets, what don't have a strong relation with simulation processing. And well, is expensive to have an average computer in Brazil, but I don't earn more than US$1k per month. So, I've spent several months saving money to buy my pc.

[cmdp123789 710]

So, without trying to sound repetitive, it is possible to lift up some limitations, but only from their side due to the fact that we cannot access the hardcoded things in the game? 

[Turjan 1,048]

So, without trying to sound repetitive, it is possible to lift up some limitations, but only from their side due to the fact that we cannot access the hardcoded things in the game? 

At least increasing some of the limits is possible without many difficulties. For example, the tree limit is quadrupled by an existing mod. That one is relatively easy, as trees don't tie into anything else. The same author also made a mod that doubled building limits and touched on a few others. However, this means re-routing normal game code and checking on hundreds of references. It also means changing a few calculation formulas. All in all, it's quite involved for a modder and took a very long time for someone not familiar with the code. The performance hit was in the single digit percentage. When he was done, CO released a game update, so he realized it was impossible to keep up with those.

On the plus side, this means that increasing a few limits would be an easy task for CO, and the performance hit should be even less than with the mod.

[QuantumChicken 89]

Well, the limits have been upped marginally in the roads (12.5%), but 50% in buildings/zones with this current update, so they are listening to people.

[Klyte45 172]

Yeah, they are showing they're not like EA. (who don't give a f*ck for the players...)

I'm happy with it, and let's see what's the next limit to be reached.

[QuantumChicken 89]

Yeah, they are showing they're not like EA. (who don't give a f*ck for the players...)

I'm happy with it, and let's see what's the next limit to be reached.

Oh jeeze, don't get me started with flEa bAg and their corporate ignorance... Yea, I am eager to see what will max out next.

[ReneXL 16]

Fantastic, some crucial limits have been upped. This update gives a lot of continuity to players cities.

[QuantumChicken 89]

Sorry for necro'ing this, but there is a Steam mod that increases the parked and active car agents to 65536 now. I have a professional workstation server now from an inheritence (2x 8cores/16threads with 64GB DDR3-1866 and an GTX 980 4GB. It DOES use 16 of my 32 threads @3.6GHZ. Sadly, the game does crawl to a slow pace on windows 10 with 400k squawkboxes. I think Unity3d is needing more optimisations and/or better multithreading. I have personally talked with Colossal Order and they said it is no easy task manipulating the user agents in Unity3d as it is a very complex engine. I also play Rust, which is on the same engine, but it can handle 2.147 billion agents. That being said, Rust requires a way more powerful machine to handle the agents. I just want to add for moderator knowledge, my other account "KillrChicken" seems to have lost its password ability, so I made this one and hope they can delete my borked account. Sorry for doing this. I tried to use my pass, but it stated there was no password tied to this account.

[Leo -- 186]

I know a lot has changed in the C:S world since 2015 but the limits are now a greater issue. I keep running into the population limit even though I'm in the 9 tiles area (I do have the 81 tiles mod but all of the population is in the 9 tiles area) due to how I configure the Realistic Population 2 mod and I don't have a supercomputer just a slightly above average laptop. So the limits started to kill my interest in the game because I essentially have to prematurely kill of my half-finished cities and start a new one.

[rmjohnson144 42]

1 hour ago, Leo -- said:

I know a lot has changed in the C:S world since 2015 but the limits are now a greater issue. I keep running into the population limit even though I'm in the 9 tiles area (I do have the 81 tiles mod but all of the population is in the 9 tiles area) due to how I configure the Realistic Population 2 mod and I don't have a supercomputer just a slightly above average laptop. So the limits started to kill my interest in the game because I essentially have to prematurely kill of my half-finished cities and start a new one.

If you have reached your population limit that early, don't you think you should undo the population changes you made?

I mean, you are literally he only cause of your problem

On 9/24/2021 at 8:00 PM, KillrChicken said:

Sorry for necro'ing this, but there is a Steam mod that increases the parked and active car agents to 65536 now. I have a professional workstation server now from an inheritence (2x 8cores/16threads with 64GB DDR3-1866 and an GTX 980 4GB. It DOES use 16 of my 32 threads @3.6GHZ. Sadly, the game does crawl to a slow pace on windows 10 with 400k squawkboxes. I think Unity3d is needing more optimisations and/or better multithreading. I have personally talked with Colossal Order and they said it is no easy task manipulating the user agents in Unity3d as it is a very complex engine. I also play Rust, which is on the same engine, but it can handle 2.147 billion agents. That being said, Rust requires a way more powerful machine to handle the agents. I just want to add for moderator knowledge, my other account "KillrChicken" seems to have lost its password ability, so I made this one and hope they can delete my borked account. Sorry for doing this. I tried to use my pass, but it stated there was no password tied to this account.

The "More Vehicles" is a terrible mod ad should not be used.  You don't get anywhere near 64k vehicles, as the vehicle limit array is shared by other game data.  I have never seen 20,000 vehicles even reached, as other game data has used up the array.   Plus it can cause other issues as the data array is full and will have problems or just plain crash.

The game can only use a total of 8-cores worth of processing.  So, 800% of CPU usage.  That's 8-cores each at 100%

But the "More Vehicles" mod may be in large part, the cause of your problem.

But the game needs more upgraded than anything.  It uses dx11 and Unity, so it has poor multi-threading.  Adding DX12 for much, much better MT will require reprogramming as you just can't enable DX12 and have it convert fully.

But to give you an idea of just how optimized this game is, watch this Unity video on AI calculations. The video is called, "How many AI agents can Unity handle?"  Just copy and paste into YouTube.  Not sure if links are allowed here.

But I'd like to see this agent limit in rust.  I don't see how the game would need that many agents in game.  I mean Rust is just a survival game.  It shouldn't need that many non-player characters.

[Leo -- 186]

22 hours ago, rmjohnson144 said:

If you have reached your population limit that early, don't you think you should undo the population changes you made?

I mean, you are literally he only cause of your problem

I really like the challenge of trying to support a city that has a close if not exceeding some of the densest cities in the world and the bigger issue is that the game tries to push you to get your population higher.

23 hours ago, rmjohnson144 said:

The "More Vehicles" is a terrible mod ad should not be used.  You don't get anywhere near 64k vehicles, as the vehicle limit array is shared by other game data.  I have never seen 20,000 vehicles even reached, as other game data has used up the array.   Plus it can cause other issues as the data array is full and will have problems or just plain crash.

I never had such issues with the mod, I had gotten remarkably close to the 16383 limit in my 1 million pop cities (the highest that I remember is 15376 but I might've went over)

23 hours ago, rmjohnson144 said:

But the game needs more upgraded than anything.  It uses dx11 and Unity, so it has poor multi-threading.  Adding DX12 for much, much better MT will require reprogramming as you just can't enable DX12 and have it convert fully.

I agree the game today is now an unstable incoherent patchwork of mods and we really need a new game in order to keep the Skylines game alive.

[rmjohnson144 42]

2 hours ago, Leo -- said:

I really like the challenge of trying to support a city that has a close if not exceeding some of the densest cities in the world and the bigger issue is that the game tries to push you to get your population higher.[/QUOTE]

I get that, and I've tried to do similar, but without other game supporting mechanics, all I ended up was just a larger pop number, but it was no different when the city was 500k.  So it just felt I clicked a button to double my population, with no real changes to the rest of the game.

Quote

I never had such issues with the mod, I had gotten remarkably close to the 16383 limit in my 1 million pop cities (the highest that I remember is 15376 but I might've went over)

Well, the Vehicle limit is 16k, but the pedestrian limit is a much higher 64k limit, so the game has an 80k agent limit total.

 

Quote

I agree the game today is now an unstable incoherent patchwork of mods and we really need a new game in order to keep the Skylines game alive.

I definitely would like a new version of the game.  This one was piecemeal from the start and it added artificial game mechanics, and left a lot out.  I think some mods add a lot to the game, but no where of what is needed for sure.  In fact, I have found no reason to even add workshop to the game, other than cosmetic and a few quality of life mods.  

Opps, I forgot the most important part.  I feel you should play the game the way you want.  I was thinking you were having an issue in the game as I was trying to help.  But maybe this is what you wanted and got exactly out of the game what you wanted.  I know laptops can have a big challenge in this game.  But there are mods you can use to bypass a lot of the game and allow you to build 25-tiles with some effort.  Some mods need configuring and setup o make them work for you.

[QuantumChicken 89]

Sorry for necro'ing again. I now have a Ryzen 9 7950x @ 5.70Ghz, 64GB DDR5-5200, an RTX 2080TI, and C:SI seems to move at the speed of a cement truck drag-race after getting 1 million cims in it. I think the engine will need a massive re-write to achieve modern computer powers/specs. I would love to see Colossal Order remove these limits and make the game SMT-capable. Cities Skylines II does utilise up to 64 cores of processing power, but I rather play SimCity 4 as my RTX runs at 110c on C:SII and I am afraid that I could reduce my neighbourhood to molten slag due to the 96c 16-cores/32-threads maxed out and my GPU at 110c maxed out. My DRAM even gets up there with heat generating which I thought was only possible on Factorio due to the raster-based DRAM use. I have never had issues with the more vehicles, more citizen units, and more path units mods, so I do not know what you mean. Oh yea, and about Rust, I had a sever with ~1 million agents on it (foliage, being the most, animals, being the second most, zombies, dozens of patrol helicopters, scientists by the tonnes, and lootables, being the 3rd most). Problem is that My dual-xeon server slows to a cement truck race speed as they are slow and old processors (2013).