Missvanleider lotting thread

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Hello,

I've decided to create a thread where I can show what I'm working on, and to annoy you all with requests for help.

I'm quite keen to produce a set based on the PEG security fence props. I've made a start as you can see.

Whilst I can arrange the props and textures in the lot editor just fine, I'm struggling with some of the more esoteric aspects of modding. All my test lots were made by editing an existing lot in the humble Maxis LE. Whilst this works fine in terms of being able to access the lots in menus, plop them etc. The menu description exemplar is always the same as the first lot that I copied, which I'm sure came from @Tyberius06 expansion to the IRM filler set.

I have read @rsc204's my first mod tutorial. This has helped me understand some of the steps I need to do in order to be able to create a lot, but I have a question for those with some more experience.

Since my first attempt is a set of lots rather than a standalone, I want to make sure that I'm not making any really basic errors.

In order to create something like the above I think I need to create a set of 12 models using PIM-X (I can't seem to install the regular PIM and have all but given up). with the exemplar names in a format like:

MY NAME-SECURITY FENCE(BARB-WIRE)-ORIENTATION-TEXTURE

6 lots on left:

MVL-SFBW-CORNER-CONCRETE

MVL-SFBW-STRAIGHT-CONCRETE

MVL-SFBW-DIAG-HALF

MVL-SFBW-DIAG-GRASS

MVL-SFBW-STRAIGHT-GRASS

MVL-SFBW-CORNER-GRASS

6 lots on right:

MVL-SF-CORNER-CONCRETE

MVL-SF-STRAIGHT-CONCRETE

MVL-SF-DIAG-HALF

MVL-SF-DIAG-GRASS

MVL-SF-STRAIGHT-GRASS

MVL-SF-CORNER-GRASS.

I can drag these models to the category (in this case landmark eye candy) that I want them to appear in, but I'm not sure that I've then done everything I need to do in order to open them up in LE and start recreating the test lots I show above. Some pointers (and a little patience, although happily that seems to be an abundant quality at ST) would be very much appreciated!

I want all these lots to have essentially zero in game effects, I don't want them to consume any power, produce any garbage or frankly do anything other than exist and make the edges of my industrial area / airport / prison look nice so I assume it should be fairly easy to actually fiddle about with the various options in order to achieve a minimal impact on the simulation. I've been asked if I can share these since I originally posted in the 'show us what you're working on' thread, and think this is probably something that A) I can do and B) others might appreciate.

Until next time

 

[11241036 5,115]

30 minutes ago, MissVanleider said:

Hello,

I've decided to create a thread where I can show what I'm working on, and to annoy you all with requests for help.

 

I'm quite keen to produce a set based on the PEG security fence props. I've made a start as you can see.

Whilst I can arrange the props and textures in the lot editor just fine, I'm struggling with some of the more esoteric aspects of modding. All my test lots were made by editing an existing lot in the humble Maxis LE. Whilst this works fine in terms of being able to access the lots in menus, plop them etc. The menu description exemplar is always the same as the first lot that I copied, which I'm sure came from @Tyberius06 expansion to the IRM filler set.

I have read @rsc204's my first mod tutorial. This has helped me understand some of the steps I need to do in order to be able to create a lot, but I have a question for those with some more experience.

Since my first attempt is a set of lots rather than a standalone, I want to make sure that I'm not making any really basic errors.

 

In order to create something like the above I think I need to create a set of 12 models using PIM-X (I can't seem to install the regular PIM and have all but given up). with the exemplar names in a format like:

MY NAME-SECURITY FENCE(BARB-WIRE)-ORIENTATION-TEXTURE

6 lots on left:

MVL-SFBW-CORNER-CONCRETE

MVL-SFBW-STRAIGHT-CONCRETE

MVL-SFBW-DIAG-HALF

MVL-SFBW-DIAG-GRASS

MVL-SFBW-STRAIGHT-GRASS

MVL-SFBW-CORNER-GRASS

6 lots on right:

MVL-SF-CORNER-CONCRETE

MVL-SF-STRAIGHT-CONCRETE

MVL-SF-DIAG-HALF

MVL-SF-DIAG-GRASS

MVL-SF-STRAIGHT-GRASS

MVL-SF-CORNER-GRASS.

I can drag these models to the category (in this case landmark eye candy) that I want them to appear in, but I'm not sure that I've then done everything I need to do in order to open them up in LE and start recreating the test lots I show above. Some pointers (and a little patience, although happily that seems to be an abundant quality at ST) would be very much appreciated!

I want all these lots to have essentially zero in game effects, I don't want them to consume any power, produce any garbage or frankly do anything other than exist and make the edges of my industrial area / airport / prison look nice so I assume it should be fairly easy to actually fiddle about with the various options in order to achieve a minimal impact on the simulation. I've been asked if I can share these since I originally posted in the 'show us what you're working on' thread, and think this is probably something that A) I can do and B) others might appreciate.

Until next time

 

I'm notsure if I exactly understand what you want, but it seems to me that you want to make some lots that do not have any in-game effect.

As for the lot design: This is only possible in LE, and everything looks fine to me, so it seems you got this done right. Everything else, such as stats, must be done in iLive's Reader. For that, you need to know that every ploppable lot requires two exemplar files to work: the lot configuration exemplar file, and the building exemplar file. If you open any lot in Reader, most of this should be self-explanatory, although Reader sometimes requires some time to learn. I always suggest all users to make their first modding attempts with Reader; although it is anything but user-friendly, it allows you to understand the game from its very basics, and allows you to basically modify almost every aspect that us gamers can modify. LE just alters the lot exemplar file, LEProp only some stats of the building exemplar file - with Reader, you can do all of it.

To effectively set all stats to zero, just look at the building exemplar file and all the properties there. In most cases, you can trust the description of the properties there. If you don't understand something, just let it be.

In your case, the most important properties would be: Bulldoze cost, plop cost, monthly cost; pollution; landmark effect, park effect; power consumed, water consumed. Just set all of these to zero. Double-click on them, enter 0 (sometimes they have more than one entry [so-called "reps"], then you need to set all of them to zero), click on "Apply" to the right and then "Apply" to the bottom.

Edit: If you need further help with it, how about attaching your modified files here? We could have a look at them and tell you what to do.

[Tyberius06 12,254]

Hi!

Hm... I can answere some of your questions. 

But first DO NOT START MAKING MODELS for these lots. Totally unnecessary. If you use PIM-X (X-Tool) anyway, that will do all what you need more or less without the Maxis Lot Editor. I haven't made much mass lotting like this for a while, but I have a few wall/fence sets in different WIP stages, which are similiar to this. 

38 minutes ago, MissVanleider said:

Whilst I can arrange the props and textures in the lot editor just fine, I'm struggling with some of the more esoteric aspects of modding. All my test lots were made by editing an existing lot in the humble Maxis LE. Whilst this works fine in terms of being able to access the lots in menus, plop them etc. The menu description exemplar is always the same as the first lot that I copied, which I'm sure came from @Tyberius06 expansion to the IRM filler set.

This goes back to the fact, that I probably turned the Item Name and Description to Ltext format (with PIM-X), which will leave two additional properties (User Visible Name Key and Item Description Key) in the building examplar, while this process is removing the item name and description properties. The lot editor will copy the whole buidling examplar, it will give it a new GID, but won't bring the Ltext properites to the new lot. So these properties will still be tied to the original lots. You need Reader to modify these properties. You can remove those and then your Item Name and Description will be visible in game again. 

38 minutes ago, MissVanleider said:

In order to create something like the above I think I need to create a set of 12 models using PIM-X

You don't need to create 12 models. Or I might missunderstand you by using the term models in this case. You have an option in PIM-X under the Resources/other models called blank. Drag and drop this blank "model" to the approprite "BUILDING" menu section, which will create a building examplar to you. In your plugins folder a new file "name(the name what you gave to this building examplar)._loosedesc" will show up. At this point you have two choices. But my memory is a bit foggy how I did it, so I might be wrong afte rall. It was a couple of years ago, when I was messing with it. 

a) create a lot file of the building examplar. BUT do not start making/decorating the LOT, just create the lotconfig examplar. NOTE: from this point your lot (since it's a plopable lot and not growable) will have its own inbuilt building and lot config examplars with unique IIDs so you won't need the *._loosedesc file anymore. What you can do, that go to Reader and edit the relevant parts like: plop and bulldoze costs, monthly costs, pollution etc... Then go to Maxis lot editor and make X copies of this modified lot. Now I'm not 100% sure, that it will actually carrry over your modifications, but I think it will. 

b) you have this *._loosedesc file. Go to Reader and open this file and make the necessary modifications as I mentioned above. Save everything properly (don't forget to reindex and rebuilding the DIR file before you save your work in Reader.) Go back to PIM-X, and open this *._loosedesc file from the BUILDING examplars, then create the first lot. As I mentioned above, it will create the lot with a new unique building and lot config examplar in the new lot file. At this point you still don't need to go and decorate your lot files, you just create the lotconfig examplars. Now open the *._loosedesc file again from the BUILDING and repeate the "create new lot" process... Repeate the same process always from the *._loosedesc file until you have the desired amount of lot file. Now that you have the desired amount of LOT files, you can start decorating them one by one. At the end of the process you can delete the *._loosedesc file.  
It might will be a bit trial and error, but these methods should work. 

I hope it helps!

- Tyberius

[MissVanleider 1,851]

5 minutes ago, Tyberius06 said:

The lot editor will copy the whole buidling examplar, it will give it a new GID, but won't bring the Ltext properites to the new lot. So these properties will still be tied to the original lots. You need Reader to modify these properties. You can remove those and then your Item Name and Description will be visible in game again

Interesting... this is actually what i tried to do at first but gave up, i will recheck this part because this seems much easier than creating the blank model and going back to zero.

[Tyberius06 12,254]

50 minutes ago, MissVanleider said:

Interesting... this is actually what i tried to do at first but gave up, i will recheck this part because this seems much easier than creating the blank model and going back to zero.

Hm... Ok, it's my (and some others) personal opinion, but while this Maxis LE method is the easiest, I really hate when people with PIM-X access using that method. I think it's ok, when people creating quick custom lots this way for personal use, but when it comes to a release, I prefer if those lots are not created this way. Don't take it as an offense, please, but it is a bad (kind of lazy) practice. I have to admit, that I still have some of my personal custom lots which were made this way (from my early days back in 2015, when I didn't know that I can transfer/copy the whole lot config data into a new lot-shell with PIM-X or even with Reader) and some part of my first released contents, the Heretic Seaport projects have lots similiary made, but none of my later released lots were created as a Maxis LE copied version of an other content. And also partially this is the reason that I want to remake and rebrand the Heretic Seaport Project completely, to get the rid of those copied lots and replace them with original new PIM-X created ones. I wish that back in the days someone was telling me to avoid the LE method, but while I was making the first 120 lots/re-lots for the Heretic Seaport Project I learnt pretty soon, that I should only use Maxis LE if I really ran out of other option and that was mostly when I needed to set the LAND only or WATER only tiles up on a lot. 
In you case these are relatively easy lots. Finding and placing/replacing the base texture+overlay texture+fence props then save and next file. 

So using the LE maybe easier, but making new lots with PIM-X is way cleaner and better practice.

- Tyberius

[rsc204 21,865]

Using blank models is almost mandatory if you take the route of using the Maxis tools. But you can just start with the ‘invisible model’ if using PIM-X.

Rather than focussing on the menu you want your lots to appear, it’s much better to pick the most relevant template. For neutral lots, I always use Park without Building/Neutral lot. This avoids any settings you may prefer to avoid. Thereafter, to alter the menu placement (occupant groups) and a few other things, a handy tool by iLives, LE Prop is probably the easiest to use. Just save after every edit, it can be buggy otherwise and lead to problems. For this reason I prefer to recommend SC4 Tool for beginners, which is pretty straightforward to understand. Reader is much better, but has a much harder learning curve.

Since this is your first set, if you want to post them here (attachment), we can take a quick look and identify any areas where you might want to do things differently. But eye candy lots can usually be totally handled in PIM-X, using it’s Lot Editor is for me better than the original. That tutorial was really only for the can’t use/won’t use PIM-X crowd. Frankly it makes the LE and PIM completely redundant unless you like making your life harder.

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Hi Everyone,

So I have followed some of the tips here, and I'm definitely getting... somewhere.

I'm obviously not following the instructions regarding LE Prop above in terms of messing with the menu of display. I used tool / occupant groups and selected 'landmark' but this didn't work, (unsurprisingly really since I'm kinda sure the occupant group is something to do with growable buildings). I managed to get these plopped in game using the buildingplop cheat and finding the lots in that pop up box, but obviously this isn't ideal.

Second point, I have a plop cost of $4000 per tile, which seems a little steep even if I am always cheating for untold wealth, there is also a rather steep maintenance cost of around $43 per month, which is again a little pricey.

I've attached the files to this post. I appreciate that I might have made a mistake early on when dragging my invisible model in PIM-X as there are a lot of variables here I didn't mess with.

Are any of you SC4 super-genius types able to have a quick look at the files and see if these can be tweaked (in reader?), or if I need to go back to square one, and do something differently in an earlier step. I think if I can sort the cost issue and the menu issue then I'm definitely getting somewhere.  

I have iLive Reader, which I suspect could amend the lots I have to make them workable, but as @rsc204 mentioned, it has quite a steep learning curve. I have successfully used it to alter growable building tilesets and stuff, so if it's something I need to dive into, I can probably make it work. 

PLOP_1x1_MVL-SFBW-CORNER-CONCRETE_3d9ad18d.SC4Lot

PLOP_1x1_MVL-SFBW-CORNER-GRASS_cd9aab50.SC4Lot

PLOP_1x1_MVL-SFBW-DIAG-GRASS_1d9acdbe.SC4Lot

PLOP_1x1_MVL-SFBW-DIAG-HALF_6d9ace8c.SC4Lot

PLOP_1x1_MVL-SFBW-STRAIGHT-CONCRETE_0d9ad0f2.SC4Lot

PLOP_1x1_MVL-SFBW-STRAIGHT-GRASS_bd9aae62.SC4Lot

In addition, I've used props and textures from the below:

 

[rsc204 21,865]

Quick and Dirty Method to make a Neutral Lot in SC4-PIM:

No audio, because this is simply the quickest way to show how to do it. Note, I make one Buildings Exemplar (LooseDesc), then create a single Lot. But, we can re-use an existing Buildings Exemplar, to make an exact copy, but with a unique Lot. Note too how both of these are unique (same names, different IDs). So you can just re-use again and again the same Buildings Exemplar, once you've got it exactly how you want it.

:EDIT: Just adding, I set the Occupant Size to .5,.5,.5 for every Plop Lot I make or when using a blank prop. This helps to make sure lots are MMP Friendly. You MUST do this BEFORE you create the Lot, otherwise it will never actually refresh the properties, even though it looks like it has.

[rsc204 21,865]

Using LEProp to then alter the Menu the item appears in:

 

[rsc204 21,865]

And lastly, having made 6 lots using the same Buildings Exemplar, editing them all in LEProp, we can remove all the Textures/Props from our Template Lots, then just copy/paste them from the originals, instead of re-making things. Note, you'll probably at the least want to fix up the Names and Icons after all this. DO NOT copy/paste Buildings, that will likely end badly.

Note the order is important, SC4-PIM will change all these neutral values if you re-save the Buildings Exemplar there, since it's now a Landmark, it tries to be clever. But you can edit the Lot's without worry.

This process should get you back on track, plus there are some very useful tricks.

[11241036 5,115]

@MissVanleider

Fortunately, your lots can easily be tweaked in Reader. I've attached you a screenshot of what happens if you open the file PLOP_1x1_MVL-SFBW-CORNER-CONCRETE_3d9ad18d.SC4Lot in Reader.

To the right half of the picture, you see a list of all what it does (the so-called properties). They should mostly be self-explanatory. You can edit them by doing this:

Right-click on any of these properties. Then select "Edit property". We'll start with the property Power Consumed, because your lot now consumes 50 kWh, which is pretty high. This value is hexadecimal, thus, it translates 50 kWh into 32 (3x16 + 2x1 = 50). This window will pop up:

This is where you do the editing. Please know: Depending of the context, Reader will only allow you to enter: text (e.g. with Item Name), decimal numbers (e.g. with Occupant size), or hexadecimal numbers (most others). Sometimes, Reader will also display a code as text (e.g. Occupant groups, where the code for "civic" is being 0x00001005), this is very annoying to find out (this can, however, really be done in LEProp, and you actually already did it right). Sometimes, Reader will also "translate" decimal numbers into hexadecimal for you (such is the case with Power Consumed) and sometimes not (with all cost-related properties).

To edit the value, do this: Highlight the only entry here (listed under "Values"), and enter any number (I've entered 0, makes the most sense), and then click somewhere else in the window. Now, instead of 0x00000032, the value has changed to 0x00000000.

Pollution, BTW, has 4 values, one for each air, water, garbage, and radiation. The process is the same.

You can also delete properties and add new ones, but I suggest you just refrain from doing so unless you know what you do. You can also copy&paste properties to other files to save time; just remember to delete redundant properties, every property should only exist once.

As a general rule: LE can't do the modding for you, but if you edit a default Maxis lot and choose "Save as", it will always create a duplicate for you that is at least working. It will have the same properties as the original, so I suggest editing something that works in the same way the end result is supposed to work (e.g. if you want to make it a park, start editing a park), so you will have less work.

As an example, I've attached a file to this post, where I've changed the properties like this: Plop Cost 50$, Bulldoze Cost 10$, no monthly maintenance, no pollution except 1 garbage, no power/water consumption, no mayor rating effect, no landmark effect.

If you need further help, please feel free to tell.

PLOP_1x1_MVL-SFBW-CORNER-CONCRETE_3d9ad18d.SC4Lot

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Thank you for your help guys, i really appreciate it. Going to get back in to it tomorrow and hopefully sort these files out. Now, food and Apex Legends

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for these tips. They were incredibly helpful. Lots are now showing in Landmark menu and they are behaving correctly as neutral lots. 

I need to do some work with the actual lotting, as these are still pretty rough (using the long sec fence instead of 2 x short fence props means they are not as slope tolerant as ideal, and I seem to have used the wrong concrete texture on some of the lots, but this can be fixed quite easily.

I've attached a .rar file containing the fences to this post as @juguesal requested to use them. Certainly they are usable now, although not ideal.

I'm not sure that tidying them up properly and making them available on the STEX is really realistic at the moment given the rough edges it's likely to take me a little while. By all means, if you would like to have a go with the rough version, please do so. (assuming this is allowed, more than happy to delete the file if it is not).

It might be better than waiting for me to complete the set properly.  

 

Secfence.rar

 

 

[rsc204 21,865]

22 hours ago, MissVanleider said:

I'm not sure that tidying them up properly and making them available on the STEX is really realistic at the moment given the rough edges it's likely to take me a little while. By all means, if you would like to have a go with the rough version, please do so. (assuming this is allowed, more than happy to delete the file if it is not).

There is never anything wrong with attaching files or even WIP stuff for others to use, it's just less likely to get seen by the masses than things on the STEX. But none the less, it's a perfectly valid method of doing things.

It's worth nothing, the larger part of the community is in the can't mod/won't mod category, but most of us love using custom content. There's never enough options and even some simple fence lots will surely be useful for a number of people. Often it's the little things that whilst not necessarily spectacular, become ridiculously useful.

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Hello Everyone, I have attached a much better version of the barb-wire security fences, which are now much better aligned, with matching concrete textures, and more slope tolerant corners. There is a grass set and a concrete set, 6 lots in total. can be found in landmark menu. Nice to have finished something that generally works, even if it was not too ambitious, maybe the next project will be more exciting  Of course they require the files 2 listed before as dependencies.

Secfence.rar

Thanks to all of you for your help. The only thing that I will say is that even this simple modding has made me too tired to actually load up and play the game! I think I'll try to do some city building tomorrow, maybe find a home for some of these fences  

[rsc204 21,865]

1 hour ago, MissVanleider said:

The only thing that I will say is that even this simple modding has made me too tired to actually load up and play the game!

Welcome to the modding club . Before you know it, you'll hardly ever be playing the game anymore, if you are not careful. But once you step down this rabbit hole, it's hard to go back, the possibilities to control and create are just too tempting.

Case in point, I took the liberty of checking them out, next thing you know, I've modified them a little. .

If you'll indulge me, here's some tips I would consider, just ease of use stuff mainly:

• Copy the Item Names to the Exemplar Name field, or otherwise make use of the latter. Finding your lots in the LE is going to get tedious if you don't give them descriptive names. Note that the Exemplar Name never appears in-game, provided the Item Name Property exists.
• I think switching the Item Descriptions to be the Item Names works better.
• Adding a brief description can be very useful, especially for others who won't be as familiar with your lots.
• The concrete corner lot is using a lighter concrete from the other two, you probably want the darker one instead.
• No idea how, what or why, but if you look closely at the Lot Exemplar for the Diag Half lot, you'll see it actually has three textures. Two of them are the half-concrete overlay. Yet, whatever I do, only one is actually seen in the LE. You can delete the Texture right there from the LotConfig, but it's the first instance, not the last that is somehow not right?
• Do you want the lots where they are in the menu? When I make little things like this, I tend to prefer them first, simply because if I've bothered to make something, I'm likely to use them a lot. You can edit the Item Order property to do this, I like to use a special negative number 0xFAAAAAB0, this ensures my lots are right at the beginning of a given menu, even with lots of custom content.
• Consider adding a minimal Plop Cost, if for no other reason, this allows you to dictate the order your items appear in, whilst using the same Item Order.
• Icons look nicer, sure they can be a lot of hassle. Whilst in the PIM-X LE, Press CTRL + I (I for India) together, it'll add a custom one, based on the Lot. Sadly, it's not as neat as the Maxis LE, which gives better results. But it's better than nothing if this is too much hassle or out of your comfort zone.

Of course, although partially because I plan to use these myself, I went through and made all those changes. Including adding fancy Icons, because, I don't know, just know it's not my intention to show you up or anything negative. I just like doing this stuff, I'm not a normal person. I can send you some useful source files (Photoshop), but if you don't have experience with image editors, it won't be much use to you, although you can use the free GIMP to work with such files.

Anyway, this gives you a chance to see first hand all those things I've mentioned above and consider which things you might like to implement on future projects. I won't be offended if you have no use for them.

SecFence_BW.7z

[MissVanleider 1,851]

9 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Welcome to the modding club . Before you know it, you'll hardly ever be playing the game anymore, if you are not careful. But once you step down this rabbit hole, it's hard to go back, the possibilities to control and create are just too tempting.

Haha, Well quite! Very worrying Pandora's Urn kind of moment...

 

9 hours ago, rsc204 said:

• Copy the Item Names to the Exemplar Name field, or otherwise make use of the latter. Finding your lots in the LE is going to get tedious if you don't give them descriptive names. Note that the Exemplar Name never appears in-game, provided the Item Name Property exists.
• I think switching the Item Descriptions to be the Item Names works better.

Now this was actually something I did a couple of times to try to get right. When I first created my 6 different files using the blank model and creating a neutral lot in PIM-X (as per your tutorial above) I saw that I could give each lot a name. You called your example 'NoEffectsLot', so I did the same. 

On my first attempt, I created 6 different 'create a ploppable lot' via PIM-X using this invisible building. I gave them the name that each file now has i.e. SFBW-LOCATION-TEXTURE. I couldn't find anywhere in the actual ploppable building file information that still contained 'NoEffectsLot' but when they were in the menu in game, each were called 'NoEffectsLot' with the further description that I had given.

Second time through I created 6 different 'neutral lots' and I named them all individually, this worked better, but I think missed the point that you're trying to make above and I'm still not fully understanding.. 

Presumably to avoid this if I was doing the same thing I could give the name of the neutral invisible building lot the same of the set, i.e. "MVL Security Fence Set" or whatever and then give the descriptions of each piece below. I think I'm just going to need to mess around with the programs a bit more so I really learn which name / description appears where rather than asking your to spell it out for me (Because even that doesn't seem to be working)!

9 hours ago, rsc204 said:

The concrete corner lot is using a lighter concrete from the other two, you probably want the darker one instead.

9 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Do you want the lots where they are in the menu? When I make little things like this, I tend to prefer them first, simply because if I've bothered to make something, I'm likely to use them a lot. You can edit the Item Order property to do this, I like to use a special negative number 0xFAAAAAB0, this ensures my lots are right at the beginning of a given menu, even with lots of custom content.

My very first attempt, where I copied Tyberius wall lot appeared at the top of the landmark menu which was pretty awesome. Next to all the IRM walls, and a fairly convenient place to be, I did think that I'd make an attempt to change it on my current files, but then i found they appear in my menu right next to these:

Since these are something I really want to reach for more, and would be used in similar situations as the fences I lotted, I thought it was a happy coincidence, even though I do a lot of scrolling! Higher up the menu isn't really a great problem though

9 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Icons look nicer, sure they can be a lot of hassle. Whilst in the PIM-X LE, Press CTRL + I (I for India) together, it'll add a custom one, based on the Lot. Sadly, it's not as neat as the Maxis LE, which gives better results. But it's better than nothing if this is too much hassle or out of your comfort zone.

I did think about icons, think that would make it much clearer than the descriptions in the menu, especially for something I might share with others. I do use GIMP sometimes for work and figure that creating icons can't actually be that difficult for such lots as you can express a lot of the words with the icon image itself - for these, a flat texture and an indication of straight, corner or diagonal. I was more worried about actually applying it in game, so nice to know that this isn't (too) difficult.

9 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Of course, although partially because I plan to use these myself, I went through and made all those changes. Including adding fancy Icons, because, I don't know, just know it's not my intention to show you up or anything negative. I just like doing this stuff, I'm not a normal person. I can send you some useful source files (Photoshop), but if you don't have experience with image editors, it won't be much use to you, although you can use the free GIMP to work with such files.

Anyway, this gives you a chance to see first hand all those things I've mentioned above and consider which things you might like to implement on future projects. I won't be offended if you have no use for them.

This made me laugh quite a lot. I'm delighted that someone gave not just such detailed feedback and advice, but actually went to the trouble of improving what I made. I really appreciate it!

Maybe I'll try the Girafe hedges for my next attempt that I mentioned in the can't find it... thread. I've a feeling that they might end up being a touch more difficult. Just need to locate the actual hedge props in my plugins and start playing with them. Now I can't decide if I do that or if I load up SC4 and look at your version of my PEG fences!  

[rsc204 21,865]

1 hour ago, MissVanleider said:

I think I'm just going to need to mess around with the programs a bit more so I really learn which name / description appears where rather than asking your to spell it out for me (Because even that doesn't seem to be working)!

I'm sure things are just getting a little confusing, so let's properly spell things out in clear language.

When you drag a model (like the blank/invisible one) to make a Buildings Exemplar, up pops a box asking you to name the Buildings Exemplar. This will be used for the Exemplar Name (Internal file name), but will be copied as the Item Name, the one you see in the menus. If you want those to be the same, then you need not do anything further at this point. I simply typed NoEffectLot, because it's a tutorial and I just needed to get rid of the box to move forwards.

The next thing you want to edit, is the Item Description, which is the little description seen after the name in the menus. By default PIM-X populates this with a "hilarious" joke, so if you forget to change it, it implies you (the creator) are a typing monkey . You should enter something there that describes what the lot does. It's really that simple for the most part.

Don't forget to click the Save button after editing an Exemplar, otherwise your changes don't get saved. When you create it, it is auto-saved, because the file didn't previously exist, it needs to be created (i.e. saved). This is how you get the LooseDesc files, it's the temporary Buildings Exemplar, this get's copied to the eventual SC4Lot file, assuming you are making a Ploppable at least.

1 hour ago, MissVanleider said:

Presumably to avoid this if I was doing the same thing I could give the name of the neutral invisible building lot the same of the set, i.e. "MVL Security Fence Set" or whatever and then give the descriptions of each piece below.

If you start like I showed from a template, which you copy, indeed start with the basic name that applies to all of them. You then must manually edit each later. So using your example, you could thereafter just suffix say Grass Corner, Concrete Straight etc, without having to type everything in full for each individual lot.

Re: Item Ordering: Obviously the exact position is a very personal thing and dependant on the other content you use. I have totally customised my in-game menus, but I'm sure my system wouldn't be right for everyone. The only way to know which "number" is the right one, is to know which numbers the other content you have are using. The problem is, there are defaults, many people don't change those, so everything ends up mixed together if you aren't careful. You shouldn't alter this for others, it's futile to try, make it work for you, others can always modify things if it's not right for them. But, using the same Item Order and the system of Plop Cost I outlined, at least means they should group together nicely.

1 hour ago, MissVanleider said:

I did think about icons...

I do use GIMP sometimes for work...

so nice to know that this isn't (too) difficult.

I use a template that overlays the SC4 icon style. Then I crop a screenshot, each icon is 44x44px, but in practise you should keep important details within 40x40. Icons are actually four icons, side by side for an image size of 44x176px. From left to right the icons represent the 4 in-game states, Un-selectable, Regular, Last Selected, Currently Highlighted. You can play with these a little, for example I remove text from the Last Selected one, it helps to easily differentiate them, when returning to the menus. I'll attach the files when I'm back in Windows land, you can take a peek. PIM-X allows you to Import these Icons (PNGs ideally), Right Click the Exemplar and select Change Icon (or something very similar). Avoid using LEProp for this, it has a tendency to corrupt your lots and you'll be in PIM-X anyway.

In short, using the template, you just paste the 44x44px icon as the bottom layer. Move it all the way to the left or right. Then copy that layer four times, so it repeats consistently. Edit/Add any text or custom details and save. You won't need un-selected unless your lots are "conditional" somehow, like in-game rewards. But the template handles making it B&W automatically for you anyway. Of course you don't have to use a screenshot, Paeng for example did wonders with a background, some shapes and basically pixel-art. See his Parks 205/Bikepath sets for examples.

1 hour ago, MissVanleider said:

I'm delighted that someone gave not just such detailed feedback and advice, but actually went to the trouble of improving what I made. I really appreciate it!

At its core, the lots are just as you created them. But you won't find a single item in my game, regardless of the creator, that doesn't have a nice icon and isn't named/organised in some way.

Thankfully most downloads already come this way, the purpose here is really just to give you an idea of the steps to make thing more ideal for releasing things. Obviously you're starting out and only sharing these things right now, there is absolutely no requirement or obligation to get this into it. I mentioned before, many people will greatly appreciate that you're willing to share things like this in the first place. But the core of what you did is pretty solid, you show sufficient aptitude that I feel a little assistance is a good use of my time. Call me pretentious, but in an ideal world we'd all strive to go things 'properly'. The legacy of not so well thought out content on the exchanges, on the one hand is very open. But on the flip side, the practical realities of things that don't work or are harder to use than need be, doesn't always do the wider community any favours. The more users/players we have, the more modders we'll have, the more content that gets made... yada yada yada, snake eating it's own tail etc.

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Hello, I've attached 2 hedge fillers, straight and corner that I showed in the 'Show us what you're working on' thread. Obviously they require the hedges as a dependency. That file is GRFE_HEDGE_3M. It is likely that you have this in your plugins already but you might have to get a lot that includes this file if you don't have it.

These lots should be free to plop and maintain and will appear towards the top of the landmark menu. Any problems (besides the missing icons mentioned below) please tell me.

Still no icons, maybe that's next once I work out what else to put in any pack for release. Suggestions welcome. Enjoy

GFE Hedges.rar

[rsc204 21,865]

Speaking of icons, here's the set I made for the previous lot:

Icons.7z

You probably are only interested in the PSD file, but the source PNGs and corresponding png.TGI files are in the archive too. In case you are wondering, having them like this, allows me to "Import" them into Reader, with the right ID automatically. It's not the simplest method, just how I prefer to do things. In Reader just Right Click and select "Inset & Compress File" and point to the PNG you want - the compress part is optional, but gives smaller file sizes. In PIM-X, simply Right Click a valid LotConfig and select Change Icon, this is probably the best method for most people. I tend to work in large DATs and like to batch-process these things. But if you are using separate Lots, this would certainly be much quicker.

Nice work on the Hedges, Girafes are my favorites, but we really need diagonals, I have a feeling those are amongst the source files Girafe no longer has . FYI, if you need them, they were bundled into various VIP releases, but I usually link to the VIP vnaoned Post office building.

 

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Thanks Robin,

I'll sort some icons with that. Its hard to know that the diagonal did exist but might never see the light of day!

I'm thinking of rotating that hedge prop so i can line them up and create a deeper hedge alternative. It might be beyond me but if i could get prop families with small trees/shrubs mixed in, i might be able to get a more overgrown rural hedgerow look, but it would still be basically just straights and corners.

[rsc204 21,865]

1 hour ago, MissVanleider said:

Its hard to know that the diagonal did exist but might never see the light of day!

I didn't mean to imply it existed, but it's simply part of the modelling process. SC4 unlike 3D games, doesn't use 3D models, they were too taxing for the hardware of the day. Well, some exceptions notably Automata and Transit Models for the most part aside, they are 2.5D or Isometric. This means we pre-render them, so instead of the game needing to render the full 3D model with every detail taking up resources, it places a sort of invisible rectangle, onto which the pre-rendered textures get applied. This allows us to have incredibly detailed and high quality models, that actually use very little resources comparatively. It's the key to why SC4 looks so much better than all the newer games with their lack of detail and cartoon textures. But it also means we can't simply rotate them freely as a drawback.

Anyway, techno-waffle over... if you have the resources used to make a SC4 model, you can simply rotate it as desired and re-render it, bang you have diagonal or FAR variants. It's just that it takes some time and effort, so if you don't need a diagonal there and then, you might not bother. It's these resources that got lost, so without re-making the whole, which might not match the originals, you can't easily produce a diagonal variant.

1 hour ago, MissVanleider said:

It might be beyond me but if i could get prop families with small trees/shrubs mixed in, i might be able to get a more overgrown rural hedgerow look

This is the effect I was after with the BSC Hedge props. I used the D66 set for the main hedges, then added the BSC props in a Prop Family so they are both random and seasonal, to give the over-grown effect. Obviously I was an amateur at the time, what with Girafe's hedges being seasonal, I should revisit them at some point, they are IMO a much better fit.

Prop families don't have to be hard, PIM-X makes this user friendly, like so many otherwise complicated tasks. On the left, you can select Props, which is a list of all the loaded Props. With one open on the right, Right Click and select Add to a family, simply add the Prop Family ID you want to use, bang that Prop is now in the family. Repeat for all the Props you want together and then instead of using the regular Prop in the LE, drag the Family (by it's ID) onto the Lot instead. You'd need some assigned reserved IDs, you can't just pick them out of thin air. But if you intend to make a few, you are welcome to have your own range of IDs if you'd like? Otherwise, if you just fancy one or two, I've some spare ones I'd be willing to give you. The only complication is, if you want to release works using them, you should make copies of the original Prop Exemplars and modify the copies. That way, you can distribute those as either an override, perfectly safe, since if you plop the Prop, it works as normal, only when the item on the lot is the family, does this mechanism kick in. Or otherwise with unique IDs if there is some compelling reason for being unique.

[Tyberius06 12,254]

3 hours ago, rsc204 said:

 

Nice work on the Hedges, Girafes are my favorites, but we really need diagonals, I have a feeling those are amongst the source files Girafe no longer has . FYI, if you need them, they were bundled into various VIP releases, but I usually link to the VIP vnaoned Post office building.

 

Hm... I think he might have them after all. Recently he managed to recover many of his old source files and made LE prop versions for MMPs which he didn't have before (Oaks, bushes etc...). I was requesting him fences (when they were working togerther with Flann on the Maxis fences HD replacement project) and hedges as well to my long planned and halted wall sets. So and If I recall correctly it is planned for the hedges to be reworked and expanded in the future. 

- Tyberius

Ps: @MissVanleider by the way really nice and interesting project you have here! Keep up the good work.

[rsc204 21,865]

1 hour ago, Tyberius06 said:

and hedges as well to my long planned and halted wall sets. So and If I recall correctly it is planned for the hedges to be reworked and expanded in the future. 

That would be really awesome, it wasn’t my first mod for no reason (hedges). Being able to place such things as fillers is for me indispensable but I never truly loved any of the options. I later came across these, which are for my money the best we’ve ever had, but in 2021, the lack of diagonals is limiting. Seasonal too for that extra ‘Bruce Bonus’. 

[Girafe 1,729]

The files are located here: https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=3071

It's a hidden place, I was thinking to develop more hedges during that time and decided the keep the props in this upload until creating a proper hedge pack. Finally, it never happened and props are only available there. New ones (close to the old ones but not 100% similar) are included in the Maxis fence replacement mod from Flann, but I don't advice to use them for general LOTing (they are slightly off centered like Maxis' ones) .

I, luckily, still have the models and could develop diagonal versions, however I am not sure if they would perfectly match the orthogonal copies in term of colour as they would be rendered under 3dsmax 2017 (old ones were done under 3dsmax 2012). It's quite a lot of work but if there is interest I could work on few lengths.

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Thank you @Girafe i was sure that the people interested to download my file would already have access to the hedges but there are 2 files attached where now it can be found.

If there is a chance you could complete a diagonal (3M) piece i am sure we would all appreciate, regardless of any small colour mismatch. This is nature after all, how long does it match perfectly if not an identical twin?

I think as Rsc204 above, these really are the best examples made for the game as you can say for so much of your flora. If you can take some time to make the diagonal model then we would all be very happy with that. If not, i think you already made more than enough precious things for us over all the years! Take care of yourselves, Abbi

 

 

[Kloudkicker 4,564]

@MissVanleider I am posting a new copy of the files you posted. They have icons now, not pretty, but they were not made by me. All I did was hit save in LE. Nothing more! If you center the left screen where you want the picture to be of and save, it will take a new picture of the lot and make icons for it.

Now if you want new and pretty icons, that is another matter. Sorry can not help you out any further. I am learning myself.

PLOP_1x1_MVL_GFE_HEDGE_STRAIGHT_GRASS_8da6efc1.SC4Lot

PLOP_1x1_MVL_GFE_HEDGE_CORNER_GRASS_9da6f005.SC4Lot

[Kloudkicker 4,564]

And by the way, didn't anyone tell you that by time you hit a thousand rep points that you are required to upgrade you generic avatar. No? That's because I just made it up and wanted to ruffle your feathers a tad bit. 

[MissVanleider 1,851]

40 minutes ago, Kloudkicker said:

And by the way, didn't anyone tell you that by time you hit a thousand rep points that you are required to upgrade you generic avatar

Haha, i did have one there once, not sure where it went! I put a picture of a sunset out of my office window there to correct this error on my part!

[Girafe 1,729]

I included diagonal hedges props in https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=3071

It should work fine