Some Beginnerish Questions

[simchey 20]

Thanks! I'm starting to build up my first real region (though I'll admit, I've thought that before and ended up learning too much new stuff and deciding to start over).

Regional development has been tough to get a handle on, to be honest. There aren't any tutorials I've found, anyway. If your goal is to someday have a region-spanning metro, where do you start? How soon do you start growing the next city? 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

4 hours ago, twalsh102 said:

Only cities that are connected, "affect" each other.  You could place two city squares right next to each other.  If there are no connections between them, there is no way for them to affect each other.

There is one little caveat to this inasmuch as water also serves as a connection.

 

Here's the example test region:

^ Here we have two tiles in which I've built up a small farming community on the left and there is nothing built or zoned on the right.

 

In the left side tile the demand looks like this:

 

Save, then exit to the region and go into the right side tile. At first the demand shows as extremely negative in the little bars and nonexistent in the graph itself:

 

But after running for a month it is picking up the info from the left tile even tho there are no connections of any kind. I've previously tested and when there is no water shared between the tiles then the adjacent one is isolated demand-wise until making a connection with roads (et al), rail, or subway.

 

[Cyclone Boom 16,875]

This got me curious to see whether the seaport might be responsible or a contributing factor for demand propagating to a neighbouring tiles. So loading up the same test tile combination, I removed the port and then ran the simulation a short while.

From the main graph and the RCI Demand then changed as follows:

 

Next I saved and then exited (as a 2-step process which is a good habit to get into), before entering the adjacent tile.

Initially the demand was negative (or non-existent), matching identically from the developed city. This difference appears to be from the seaport no longer providing jobs and 185 freight trucks for distribution which I saw when running the route query function.

The demand in this tile was then like so:

(Flicking between this and the previous pic and it can be seen how they're exactly the same.)

 

Then running for a short while and interestingly it changed to:

 

Here the R$ demand has risen significantly from almost -2,000 to about 3,500 in the positive. For medium and high wealth residential and it's stayed the same, and then a reduction of CS$ demand, and also the dirty industrial has dropped in favour of agriculture.

So just more supporting evidence to show how there are factors in demand which are transferred from neighbouring cities.

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

I did some additional testing. I went into the empty tile directly south of E11 (the left side farming community tile), reconciled the edges, established the city, and ran some time. The demand is exactly as one would expect for a non-connected adjacent tile:

 

Then using the shallow valley tool I created a water path crossing the border with E11:

 

Run more time and now the demand is just like if I'd connected the conventional way such as a road, rail, or subway:

 

[rsc204 21,808]

I can't recommend this tutorial enough for getting to grips with Region play. Sure it's only four parts and abruptly ends, but the key information for a sustainable region is all there.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

22 hours ago, simchey said:

do cities within a region affect one another

There are a few regional stats, and some things in all cities are affected by them (e.g. the neutral tax rate?). There's also border elevation reconciliation (which I mostly ignore without consequence).

Otherwise, cities can only affect each other through connections. If the connections are daisy-chained, then they can affect each other by running the intervening cities.

[simchey 20]

Thank you all for the continued advice! I think I'm finally starting to get somewhere here.

One thing I have noticed repeatedly is that all of my industrial sites have "phantom" workers. Most of the jobs are filled, but nobody's commuting to or from them. This happens both within a larger city with its own population, as well as in more industry heavy cities that are intended to be worked entirely by out-of-town commuters. Is this a common thing? Is it stopping actual sims from getting those jobs?

Also, could someone please tell me whether my understanding of how tile-to-tile commuting works is correct? As I understand it, a sim will first look for a job in their home tile, and then if nothing is available they will go to the nearest neighbour connection that has jobs (filled or unfilled). Based on that, a sim would never commute through an empty tile (with only a stretch of highway) to get to a big city full of opportunities, since as far as they know there isn't anything there -- they can only see jobs on directly connected tiles. Is that right?

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

1 hour ago, simchey said:

One thing I have noticed repeatedly is that all of my industrial sites have "phantom" workers.

Your commercial can appear this way too.

This is the result of the same misconception I had when starting out and almost all players did/do too. The first number in the query is the number of jobs that place has under the current economic conditions. The second number is the max it could ever have in perfect conditions. So, neither number in the query popup is the number of workers. For that you do use the route query to see how many are commuting to the building.

 

1 hour ago, simchey said:

they can only see jobs on directly connected tiles. Is that right?

Not exactly.

If you propagate the demand info back and forth they'll head for jobs as many city tiles away as necessary. It's a bit of a pain in the ass to do, but it'll work. Let's keep it simple atm. Say you have 3 city tiles in a row: A, B, and C and there is a road (or other transportation) all the way from A to C. Let's have most of the residential Sims live in tile A, then B is an empty desert no one wants to live or work in, and tile C has all the job buildings grown. Start in tile C, run some time, save, then exit. Now go into tile B and plop something which has jobs like a bus stop or library or just grow an industrial building. Run time in tile B, save, then exit. B now contains the info for the number of open jobs in tile C. Go into tile A, run some time, and the info from C via B is now known to the Sims in tile A. They do only know that a bunch of jobs are available beyond the border and know they are in tile B or beyond. The few jobs in B have to be there due to a glitch in the programming, but the info coming to A from C contains all the demand numbers.

Ok, so all is good, but you want to grow more jobs in tile C, but if you go directly to tile C it won't know how many Sims are way over in A unless you propagate that info back to C via B. So, grow more Sims in A, save, then exit. Load B, run some time, save, then exit. Load C, run some time and now it knows all about A.

You can do this for any number of tiles, but you have to propagate the info all the way back and forth.

[simchey 20]

1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

Your commercial can appear this way too.

This is the result of the same misconception I had when starting out and almost all players did/do too. The first number in the query is the number of jobs that place has under the current economic conditions. The second number is the max it could ever have in perfect conditions. So, neither number in the query popup is the number of workers. For that you do use the route query to see how many are commuting to the building.

Ah! Turns out I've been fundamentally misunderstanding the entire thing. So an industrial lot doesn't actually need workers at all? Because it's still shipping out freight, just nobody is going there.

Also, what kind of problems could be causing a lack of workers commuting into a city? A while back I asked about commuters not showing up in the next tile, and as you (and others) mentioned, waiting about half a year solved that problem. I had this issue in another city, however, an industrial park, where people were definitely taking the monorail to the edge of City A, but never showing up in City B, and running the city (for over seven in-game years) did nothing to resolve it. What might I be doing wrong?

 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

54 minutes ago, simchey said:

So an industrial lot doesn't actually need workers at all?

Nope. Nor do commercial. Tho the commercial generally needs customers (which don't actually exist, but are simulated by traffic noise nearby). Confuzzling, no?

 

54 minutes ago, simchey said:

I had this issue in another city, however, an industrial park, where people were definitely taking the monorail to the edge of City A, but never showing up in City B, and running the city (for over seven in-game years) did nothing to resolve it. What might I be doing wrong?

In City A, they see the jobs of some sort over in City B so you do see them hopping on the monorail and disappearing into B. But, over in B they are not coming thru so that means once they take the monorail into B they cannot get to the industrial park or there are no jobs for their wealth level available in said industrial park. Or yet another possibility is there is a city C with jobs connected to B and the info from C has been propagated back to A so they know about the jobs, but then when arriving in B they can't get to C so B doesn't simulate the Sims coming into B from A.

When the Sims leave City A (as seen from A) to go into B they only know jobs exist somewhere beyond the border, but not what they are. However, in City B it knows what jobs it has unfulfilled and so if Sims in B are taking up all the jobs there are no openings for Sims from City A then City B won't simulate any coming in.

Try creating a new industrial park in City B that is isolated from everything else and then divert the monorail over to it such that Sims from A have nowhere else they can go and Sims in B cannot snatch up the jobs. See if you can get any to come thru from A as seen in B. Remember to run time in A after making and saving the changes in B and that you still see some leaving town from A going into B. Then back in B, run some time and see if any come thru at all.

[powerfullshammy 81]

15 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

Nope. Nor do commercial. Tho the commercial generally needs customers (which don't actually exist, but are simulated by traffic noise nearby). Confuzzling, no?

 

In City A, they see the jobs of some sort over in City B so you do see them hopping on the monorail and disappearing into B. But, over in B they are not coming thru so that means once they take the monorail into B they cannot get to the industrial park or there are no jobs for their wealth level available in said industrial park. Or yet another possibility is there is a city C with jobs connected to B and the info from C has been propagated back to A so they know about the jobs, but then when arriving in B they can't get to C so B doesn't simulate the Sims coming into B from A.

When the Sims leave City A (as seen from A) to go into B they only know jobs exist somewhere beyond the border, but not what they are. However, in City B it knows what jobs it has unfulfilled and so if Sims in B are taking up all the jobs there are no openings for Sims from City A then City B won't simulate any coming in.

Try creating a new industrial park in City B that is isolated from everything else and then divert the monorail over to it such that Sims from A have nowhere else they can go and Sims in B cannot snatch up the jobs. See if you can get any to come thru from A as seen in B. Remember to run time in A after making and saving the changes in B and that you still see some leaving town from A going into B. Then back in B, run some time and see if any come thru at all.

My Region building style  is different My Main City Puerto Del Sol has Simpeg Agricultural MOD and used it to build a city with farms and Commercial at the same time. when Puerto Del Sol started becoming cramped I expanded to 3 isles a few businesses but mostly housing and Happy isles as all businesses to support the farms C$ and C$$ and CO$$ and Subway is best. Does not eat too much space above ground. Then to stimulate office CO$$ and CO$$$ growth in region I build another city Las Isabelas taxed the hell out of Dirty Industry 20% since my region can already support Medium Industry and High Industry. I never start with dirty industry as my very 1st city it'll drop land values if you start with that throughout the region. Start with Farms preferably SPAM MOD

[simchey 20]

Will I experience adverse effects if I never allow Dirty Industry in my region at all? So far I've left it off, and don't seem to be suffering...

And my issues with commuters disappearing doesn't seem to be a problem with this region attempt, though almost all of my industrial is in my core city which may be helping.

 

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

1 minute ago, simchey said:

Will I experience adverse effects if I never allow Dirty Industry in my region at all? So far I've left it off, and don't seem to be suffering...

As long as all your Sims can find jobs, then no, there will be no ill effects.

[powerfullshammy 81]

Yea as long as sims find jobs no effects just land value and you will never get past housing lvl 5 and comercial level 5 if you start with Dirty Industry. Not allowing them is great for your land value and if you want skyscrapers in a certain city and it's neighbors

[simchey 20]

Do I.... need industry at all? As my city is growing (hub city about 310k, metro area 550k), the total jobs are 300k (need to up the Residents, I know), but only 50k of that is industrial. I've read that you want ~3:1:1 R:C:I, but once you start getting the high density commercial, it feels like it would take an endless sea of factories to keep up, even with the industry doubler (which I have). Is this imbalance going to affect the long-term growth of my city/region?

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

4 hours ago, simchey said:

Do I.... need industry at all?

That's a good question.

In a somewhat related test I did, there were some Sims predisposed to factory work over office jobs when both were available. This was not on the same scale of the population you have so I'm out of my league here. (I play rural regions with lots of small towns and a big city for me is around 60k pop.) I've checked and it doesn't look like my test is listed in the linkys on my About Me page. I'll have to dig it up if you are interested.

[powerfullshammy 81]

I play regions with commercial along side Farming and industrial combined but low industrial in region mostly commercial and farms. Use international Airport to maintain commercial not industry to maintain commercial. industry to maintain commercial if you want an industrial region

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

I'll have to dig it up if you are interested.

I found it. It starts in this post as a another experiment in my The 505 Year Education Experiment topic. The later experiment then continues on in several later posts as peeps asked questions and it was in there that we discovered some Sims preferred Industrial jobs over Commercial employment as well as that average income for the Sims is based on EQ and not the type of job they have.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

9 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

it was in there that we discovered some Sims preferred Industrial jobs over Commercial employment

That shouldn't even be possible. According to Ripplejet's analysis of the demand simulator, sims see only generic $, $$, $$$ jobs -- The developer types have supposedly been rinsed away in translation:

Quote

However, when the pathfinder (traffic simulator) starts looking for jobs for the sims,
it doesn't see commercial and industrial jobs, it only sees Jobs

Without the data there, how can a preference be expressed?

 

[Prophet42 1,501]

I think the bigger question would be how is the demand be satisfied.  If you only build commercial to satisfy job demand, would the commercial demand eventually go to zero or negative?  If this is the case, and there is still more demand for jobs, then it would have to be filled with industrial since at zero commercial demand no more commercial buildings would be built.  If you only provide one source of jobs (commercial or industrial), then the sims preference would be taken out of the equation.  Only then I think you would be able to answer the question if industry is even needed.

[Cyclone Boom 16,875]

7 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

That shouldn't even be possible. According to Ripplejet's analysis of the demand simulator, sims see only generic $, $$, $$$ jobs

The way I see it, this was info which Cori found herself first-hand while experimenting and observing with how Sims are employed.

Depending on the distribution of traffic, to see how certain Sims prefer Industrial or a Commercial preference in some cases. By forcing Sims to reconsider their job by disconnecting their current commuting path, then noticing how there's a mixture of those who prefer dirty (chunky) factories, or those who'd rather reside in a corporate office environment. I think a key point is how when providing a new source of jobs and/or changing how Sims can commute, it's then how differentiation can occur as they reassess.

 

7 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

Without the data there, how can a preference be expressed?

It's quite fascinating how there can be surprising results when testing aspects of the simulation, and there's plenty of complexity with how everything interacts. Building on prior research too and seeing how there are additional factors involved sometimes. I personally feel it's good to be open minded about testing and exploring the game in this way. How there's not necessarily a right or wrong idea. If new observed theories differ from established principles, there can be truth there too.

[simchey 20]

That's really interesting... I'm going to keep on with my "some industrial" plan, I think, where about a quarter of the population works there.

On another note, I've really been struggling with commute times. My region is basically a metropolitan area, where one hub city has about 50% of the population and 80% of the jobs, and each outer ring city connects only to that hub (or, in a couple of cases, only to one larger "ring city"), so much of the population commutes into the hub for work. I've been trying all sorts of things to bring down commute time, but I just came across this: 

 which states that with the NAM, any travel over city boundaries necessarily makes commute "long". So I guess I can stop trying to bring those down. Is there any way to know if somewhere's commute is "too long" other than waiting to see if the buildings get abandoned?

[powerfullshammy 81]

2 hours ago, simchey said:

That's really interesting... I'm going to keep on with my "some industrial" plan, I think, where about a quarter of the population works there.

On another note, I've really been struggling with commute times. My region is basically a metropolitan area, where one hub city has about 50% of the population and 80% of the jobs, and each outer ring city connects only to that hub (or, in a couple of cases, only to one larger "ring city"), so much of the population commutes into the hub for work.

Tip: do not send your workers to other city when the city your sending them too is too far. Example: your main city has most commercial and housing on north and your sending them to south city that won't work they'll dot houses with either no work or abandon house. place housing on south when sending them to south city. but having long commute isn't bad. Edit: Oh yea I have long commute times to does not affect em at all just have a subway to minimize traffic on my avenues going to next city

[twalsh102 1,601]

@simchey,

First note that "too far" can be a function of distance, or of too much traffic.  In reality it's not so much "too far." as it is "too long of a commute."  Keep a watch out for the Briefcase (AKA No-Job) zot.  These can indicate either that no jobs are available, or that the commute time to available jobs is too long.  If these show up in already developed areas where previously they didn't exist, it's more likely the latter that is the problem.

If you catch them as soon as they show up, you do have a little bit of time to determine the cause of the problem before your Sims pack up and leave town.

[simchey 20]

Here's a rough graph of how my hub city is laid out: the colour correspond to zone type, and the black lines are connections to outer cities. 

I know I'm going to get some sims trying to commute to the far industrial/commercial, but in theory (and largely, in practice) they should be able to find work pretty close to where they come in. Right?

[twalsh102 1,601]

12 minutes ago, simchey said:

I know I'm going to get some sims trying to commute to the far industrial/commercial, but in theory (and largely, in practice) they should be able to find work pretty close to where they come in. Right?

It would depend on how full your main city was when you created the connections to those other cities

In theory, if a Sim commuting in to a city in search of a job cannot find any jobs closer than the closest neighbor connection (other than a connection to the city they just came from), they will exit to a third city (and possibly farther) looking for work. 

One also needs to be aware of the Eternal Commuter bug.  Run a Google search for "Eternal Commuter" to find a handful of articles regarding this phenomena as it applies to SC4

[simchey 20]

Yeah, I think I have eternal commuter avoided here - each commuter city only connects to the hub, either directly (mostly) or through the "dendrite structure" I've read about. So loops shouldn't be possible.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

1 hour ago, twalsh102 said:

Keep a watch out for the Briefcase (AKA No-Job) zot.

The no-job zots can also come up when you have such rapid population increase that the route-finder can't process all the new workers before they get tired of waiting. I've had the experience of bull-dozing abandoned residential and watching it rebuild successfully.

Because of my TSCT settings, I've also seen low-wealth residences get no-job zots when there's no bus service for them. That's because 50% of my low-wealth commuters insist on using mass transit (as if they have no cars), so they need either jobs or mass transit within walking distance. You can use NAM's TSCT to erase that restriction so they'll do whatever is fastest, but that then eliminates one of the challenges I like having in the game (YMMV).

[twalsh102 1,601]

44 minutes ago, jeffryfisher said:

The no-job zots can also come up when you have such rapid population increase that the route-finder can't process all the new workers before they get tired of waiting. I've had the experience of bull-dozing abandoned residential and watching it rebuild successfully.

Very true!

Your second paragraph is obviously by choice.  Out of curiosity, which Mass Transit Usage model are you using, or is it custom?

Maxis default:

R$ Sims choose Mass Transit 80% of the time and Car 20% of the time

R$$ Sims choose Mass Transit 30% of the time and Fastest means possible 70% of the time

R$$$ Sims choose Car 80% of the time and Mass Transit or Fastest means 10% of the time each

For NAM, Mass Transit Usage is determined by the model chosen, which in turn affects the chances for the other two options (Fastest and Car)

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

21 hours ago, twalsh102 said:

which Mass Transit Usage model are you using, or is it custom?

I customized mine. I long ago forgot the defaults. My custom values are actually less severe for R$. 80% mass transit usage means the bulk of your labor force is on foot until you offer some buses. Even at 50%, I build an RTMT bus stop on nearly every (zoned) street block plus where each road meets an avenue. Sims don't factor price into transit choices (only commute time), so I made sure my buses and trains would pay for themselves (and I make a tidy profit on cars, calling their transit fare a "gasoline tax").