From Windows 8.1 to... beyond

[tariely 4,496]

I have been told horror stories about Windows 8 (8.1 in fact, but close enough), while doing some updates (actually lots of updates -- I had been lagging behind... --) in presence of a visiting friend who is my Windows tech : many of those updates and applications are not supported anymore, some might become impossible to find and --cherry on the sundae--  for some eye-glazing technical reasons (that I however almost understood here and there), the Windows 8.1 system on my Mac partition (Parallels Desktop) might at some point implode, or explode, at any rate not work anymore, all my SC4 stuff will become invisible to it and I will be utterly and irremediably fracked -- even though I have everything in triplicate on a separate disk or perhaps because of it (uh ?). In short, my friend's advice was to begin hunting for another Windows version. Not that there are many in the landscape. Therefore I am asking  Those in The Know, and those who use it, if Windows 10 is a candidate, how it behaves on a Mac partition and whether it plays nice with SimCity 4 rush hours and all its various bells and whistles  -- night light patch, cheat DLL, and all the tools that I have been so painstakingly learning how to use these last year. In a word : HEEEEEELP.

[markussaage 762]

I am actually using a Windows 7 Ultimate x64 version, and I am not going to change that even after the support for Windows 7 will end in 2022. My Windows Update is disabled, because of all the problems Microsoft has since October 2016, when they did change their update polictics from single security updates to cumulative (all-in-one you want it or not) patches. Updating Windows got worse and worse every month since then, causing massive problems with every available Windows version.

Since you asking here, what Windows version you should use to play our beloved game here, I am recommending still Windows 7, because SC4 works without any problems on it even if you're using an old version by CDs (but watch out for the Microsoft patch KB3086255, which will remove the SafeDisc-Driver even on Windows 7 machines). Go ahead and buy a used computer with a Windows 7 Professional (not the Home Edition) on eBay and configure it for SC4, and you'll be just fine. Your tech guy will know what to do. Another reason for Windows 7 is the fact, that all the tools for SC4 work just fine on it (LotEditor, PIM-X, SC4Tools, SC4DataNode etc. etc. you name it).

I also have another PC running Windows 10 on it, with no problems playing SC4 or using the above mentioned tools. But this one is for testing purposes only. I do love Windows 7, and I am going to stick with it. But that's just me... Hope this helps you out a little bit!

Kind regards!

[tariely 4,496]

Thanks for the advice ! I haven't had any problems until now with Windows 8.1, which has been remarkably stable (even without the updates I hadn't made -- up to 76 of them, ahem...). I can't quite see myself retrofitting my partition (reminder : I play on a partitioned Mac...) down to Windows 7 right now, though ; but it's good to know it does work with that. On the other hand, that's one tick in the Windows 10 PROS column ; two options are better than one...

Anyone else wants to chime in ?

[rivit 3,391]

I'm at the other end of the spectrum  - Win10 Professional v1709 patched up to date which I do because I develop programs on it. 

I started at Win8 on this 5 year old machine and upgraded inplace through 8.1,and various versions of 10. Only the security change forced me to the GOG version of Simcity4 (which is nicely patched up to date too) - everything else kept working. After a graphics driver update failed oddly (BSOD) recently I was forced to reset a Windows installation for the first time. Much to my surprise the machine came back clean and faster than ever. (although I should have known blowing away and rebuilding the registry would make it quicker).  I did have to reinstall everything not Windows of course, which forced me to clean up.

All of the SC4 Tools work fine. Some of them do need careful setup (compatibility settings, patches or updates to libraries issued after they were made (.net, java, python)) - which is well documented here on Simtrop and will take time - but I haven't struck any that won't work at all. Whatever you move to will require reinstalling things.

Despite all the noise about look and feel, Windows has technically continued to improve as a OS and program compatibility over extended timeframes is one of its strengths. Add a Solid State Drive to the equation and you wont recognise it.  

[tariely 4,496]

Thanks for the review ! Not sure I can add a solid state drive to my iMac, though. And yes, I thought too that lotsa stuff would have to be reinstalled. So. I'll keep going on with win8.1 as long as the going is good and I now know there is a working replacement option. Relief !!! 

[Prophet42 1,503]

I myself play SimCity 4 on a Windows 7 Professional 64 bit machine.  I'm with @markussaage, I'm sticking with Windows 7 even after support ends (support ends January 14 2020, btw).  However, I do have a second computer with Windows 10 that I do some testing on with SC4.  You can play SC4 on Windows 10 with only some minor issues.  However, my big concern with W10 is with their forced update policy.  At some point they may push some update or OS upgrade that will break SC4 and there will be very little you can do about it.

[tariely 4,496]

Thanks for the advice. Windows 8.1 doesn't force updates or upgrades, but I'm afraid not getting them is what will break it at some point. Or something. Ah well. Let's play while we can.

[CorinaMarie 29,777]

10 minutes ago, tariely said:

I'm afraid not getting them is what will break it at some point.

The only reason I can see for wanting all the updates is if you use Windoze to connect to the internet and need safety patches. Otherwise, not getting updates shouldn't bork SC4 or other game related tools.

[tariely 4,496]

If you say so, I feel comforted !  ... (I never us it to connect to the internet...)

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

My Win-10 laptop boots Linux by default. When I do select Win-10, I nearly always pull the ethernet cable. That's to protect against the most prevalent virus of all: Win-10 itself, which will phone home to report all of the software installed or running on the machines it controls (although I think I also used the hosts file to map its destination domain to a bit-bucket). In case you didn't already know, that's Microsoft's way of enforcing software copyrights: conducting unwarranted searches through all of its customers' files, usually without their knowledge.

Win-XP doesn't phone home with intimate details of one's software and usage, so my XP machine is connected 24/7. However it still sits behind a hardware firewall that has strict port-forwarding rules, and the few forwarded ports go to a paranoid Linux server where hacker-packets go to die.

[tariely 4,496]

ARGH ! I didn't know that. That's one big black ball in WIn10's Con column...

[CorinaMarie 29,777]

16 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

Win-10 itself, which will phone home to report all of the software installed or running on the machines it controls ...

Even our beloved Win 7 (and 8.1) does this. Research KB2952664 and KB2976978 if you are curious.

[tariely 4,496]

It does ? It does ?  aaargh-bis. Well, I'm doomed, then. Or at least on my partition.

[twalsh102 1,601]

There really is no reason for doom and gloom, nor is there any real reason to change from Windows 8.1 if it is otherwise working for you,

1.  For all versions of Windows, there are ways to disable automatic updates.

2.  For all versions of Windows, you can uninstall updates if you find out they are doing something you don't like.

3.  If you are concerned that Microsoft will surreptitiously install something that will eventually cause things to "blow up", simply don't run Windows when your Mac is connected to the Internet. If your computer isn't connected to the Internet, it's impossible for Windows to "phone home", check for updates, or download updates.

FWIW, maybe I'm lucky, but having used Windows since the release of Windows 3.1, I've never suffered an irreversible problem  due to installation of any updates.  Obviously that is no guarantee that something bad won't happen in the future.

Yes, Microsoft is The Great Evil, but if your think that Apple isn't doing the same kinds of things Microsoft is doing, I find that notion terribly naive.

[Prophet42 1,503]

14 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

Even our beloved Win 7 (and 8.1) does this. Research KB2952664 and KB2976978 if you are curious.

It doesn't do it if you haven't installed those updates, and have turned off the Customer Experience Improvement Program.   With Windows 7 I still have some degree of control of what gets installed on my computer

For Windows 10 there is no way to totally turn off telemetry, unless like @twalsh102 stated you disconnect from the internet while using it.  Even at the 'Basic' telemetry setting, it is still sending a large amount of data to Microsoft.  Also with Windows 10, there is no way to prevent an update from installing (unless you pay for an Enterprise subscription).  Even with Windows 10 Professional, the best you can do is delay an update 30 days, and a feature updated for 1year.  Even if you uninstall an update you don't like, it will try to re-install it, or it will just be bundled for you in the next cumulative update (unless again, you cut it off from the internet permanently).

[tariely 4,496]

@twalsh102 “Yes, Microsoft is The Great Evil, but if you think that Apple isn't doing the same kinds of things Microsoft is doing, I find that notion terribly naive" : oh, I SO don't ! :-(((.

Thanks for the reassuring words --also @Prophet42  ; (a) I'm not connected to the internet when I play SC4 and (b) I've disabled the automatic updates from the start, I have to do then manually. So... prudently optimistic, then. 

[markussaage 762]

@twalsh102 is right: you can disable Automatic Updates in every Windows Version, even Windows 10. Go to the Services (start with Administrative Privileges), search for Windows Update, stop the service and disable it. Done!

And if you wanna be a little safe on the Windows 7 side against Microsofts snooping, look for these Updates and remove them or even don't install them at the first place.

KB2952664 (Get Windows 10)
KB2976978 (Windows 10 Check)
KB3086255 (Disables the SecuRom Copy protection)
KB3021917 (Customer Experience Program)
KB3022345 (Spy/Telemetry)
KB3035583 (GWX)
KB3068708 (Spy)
KB3075249 (Spy/Telemetry)
KB3080149 (Spy/Telemetry)
KB3150513 (Customer Experience Program)
KB3184143 (is a combination package that replaces some single Spy/Telemetry packages)

But be aware, that Microsoft sometimes releases old Patches like the KB2952664 again, like it is in this months Updates, and in the meantime there might be more combination packages out in the wild, because sometimes Microsofts documentation is really bad. On purpose, of course... But in Windows 7 you can at least hide them again, so they don't bother you. For patching Windows 10 I recommend a rather unusual way by using a little tool Microsoft itself released. It's called wushowhide.diagcab. Look here:

https://windowsreport.com/block-windows-driver-updates-wushowhide-diagcab/

That works just fine for my Win10 test laptop... beat them with their own weapons... But to be really safe out there, unfortunately there's only ONE way... Turn OFF your WiFi or cut the Internet cable!

Kind regards!

[jaredh 195]

21 hours ago, twalsh102 said:

There really is no reason for doom and gloom, nor is there any real reason to change from Windows 8.1 if it is otherwise working for you,

1.  For all versions of Windows, there are ways to disable automatic updates.

 

This is not true of Windows 10.  It will eventually download if you let it connect to the internet.  You can defer for a very long time, but M$ will eventually force it down on you....ESPECIALLY if you are on Win 10 Home edition.  

[jaredh 195]

14 hours ago, Prophet42 said:

For Windows 10 there is no way to totally turn off telemetry, unless like @twalsh102 stated you disconnect from the internet while using it.  Even at the 'Basic' telemetry setting, it is still sending a large amount of data to Microsoft.  Also with Windows 10, there is no way to prevent an update from installing (unless you pay for an Enterprise subscription).  Even with Windows 10 Professional, the best you can do is delay an update 30 days, and a feature updated for 1year.  Even if you uninstall an update you don't like, it will try to re-install it, or it will just be bundled for you in the next cumulative update (unless again, you cut it off from the internet permanently).

The way you kill telemetry in Win 10 is at your transparent corporate level home firewall that intercepts that traffic and black-holes it.   Sophos UTM or PFSense will do it  (I use Sophos)

M$ doesn't get any telemetry from my Win10 boxes.  You *CAN* block the update servers this way also....if you dare let a PC connect to the internet and not get updates.  I don't play that game....I've spent far too much of my life in the corporate world dealing with infected PCs that are fully patched and still get viruses to ever let my home ones get behind.   It's just far to easy to get a ransomware from a drive-by ADD that slips past an adblocker.

Just a word about your firewall....if its a Netgear or TPLink etc....there is a decent change it is already a part of a botnet if you don't keep it updated religiously.  If it is old enough that they have stopped patching it, get a new one....because you've likely been hacked.  If you are still (insanely) using one of the old Linksys WRT54G routers (which were AMAZING back in the day) get something new immediately.  Any of these left on the internet are 100% a part of a botnet as of 3 years ago...they can be owned simply by sending out a beacon to the device and it says "yes, here's my root password mr hacker!"  (I'm serious, its really that easy).    

[redfox85 659]

I have win10 pro ... and I do know you can kill auto updates on it. Although personally I just apply the updates when my workplace approves the patches for deployment. If its good enough for work (A top5 bank in Canada) its good enough for me.

[jaredh 195]

On 4/25/2018 at 11:28 AM, redfox85 said:

I have win10 pro ... and I do know you can kill auto updates on it. Although personally I just apply the updates when my workplace approves the patches for deployment. If its good enough for work (A top5 bank in Canada) its good enough for me.

You can kill the regular updates.  You can't kill the quarterly big patches unless that has changed in the last 4-6 months.  The big ones can't be deferred

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

On 4/25/2018 at 8:34 AM, jaredh said:

The way you kill telemetry in Win 10 is at your transparent corporate level home firewall that intercepts that traffic and black-holes it. 

Or, using admin privileges, you just replace your hosts file (c:\Windows\System32\Drivers\etc\hosts) with one that maps data.microsoft.com to a bitbucket such as localhost (127.0.0.1). Telemetry's https requests to settings-win.data.microsoft.com will go unanswered, which should stop the process right there. If it persists, then any telemetry sent to vortex-win.data.microsoft.com will loopback into your own computer and be dropped for lack of an app listening for them.

The hosts file line looks like this, and it takes affect after a restart:

127.0.0.1        data.microsoft.com        # Stymie Win-10 telemetry

The '#' and everything after it is an optional comment that you may edit to suit your own reminder needs.