Poppy Multiplayer Regions for SC4

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

19 minutes ago, RandyE said:

So that's what we can look at now, and then I suppose recommend 'no reconcile' if connections are functioning.

I would almost guess that in later regions one would create the map first, draw in all the major networks like Highways, Roads, Rail, Subways, Power, and Water connections first and then no new connections would be allowed. That way the connections should be working when you claim a city tile and they'd continue to function afterwards with no reconciling needed. Ofc, I'm just guessing.

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

24 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

That way the connections should be working when you claim a city tile and they'd continue to function afterwards with no reconciling needed.

Interesting, that's how SC2013 multiplayer works, the city tiles are not arranged in a grid with each tile edge to edge, all the connections are set up in spaces between each city tile.   I just looked again at the connections in SC4, and they do maintain functionality as long as the edges are close enough to matching.  So the game may recommend reconciling edges, but the player can decide not to.   So its another game management ability that we can enjoy with SC4, having a lot more control and freedom in manipulating terrain and networks.   I think the reconcile properties you discovered probably would be useful if further explored, but often there are multiple factors effecting the outcome.   That's why we love SC4, its always a challenge.   (oh no, I'm almost quoting EA's corporate slogan:  Challenge Everything)

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

On 1/19/2018 at 1:30 PM, jmak said:

Sims will actually take the ferry across many tiles to find a job

So what you are claiming is that the same sims who won't take a highway or train across a jobless sector are willing to do so in a ferry, that ferries are special that way. Is that correct?

Half of what I am wondering is whether there's a way to coax sims to commute via highway and rail across similar, almost-empty sectors that have no jobs. It may be that the "must have jobs" condition (echoed by Z1) was not exactly correct, that there's a trick (like running time off the clock in the intervening jobless sector) that can assimilate one connection's job availability so it will enable commuters to enter via another.

Perhaps I should take my concern to a separate thread in a transit net forum where those experts can see it.

  Edited January 20, 2018 by jeffryfisher  
Link Z1 quote

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

Another important point in using the PMR is that your Neighbor Deals need to be re-set each time you synchronize.   So the first thing I do now when I re-load my city is to ensure my income from neighbor deals is re-set.    In the SC4 online multiplayer world,  Neighbor Deals will become an important part of the game for those of us who continue pursuing its success as a social gaming activity.

[jmak 56]

4 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

So what you are claiming is that the same sims who won't take a highway or train across a jobless sector are willing to do so in a ferry, that ferries are special that way. Is that correct?

Yep. Here's an extreme case from Quince, a city in PMR. This was taken when the city was completely new and without any significant jobs or population (so all traffic is just passing through):

 

(Side note: Check out those starting RCI values! That's what you get in a diverse region of >100k)

4 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

It may be that the "must have jobs" condition (echoed by Z1) was not exactly correct, that there's a trick (like running time off the clock in the intervening jobless sector) that can assimilate one connection's job availability so it will enable commuters to enter via another.

You bring up a good point about other modes of transport, and how sims generally avoid skipping tiles with those. It might have to do with the simulator's time cost -- I don't have the values on me, but I remember reading somewhere that very long ferry distances don't translate to particularly long commute times in-game. But the SC4 traffic simulator workings are still quite mysterious to me so I can't say for sure.

1 hour ago, RandyE said:

Neighbor Deals need to be re-set each time you synchronize.   So the first thing I do now when I re-load my city is to ensure my income from neighbor deals is re-set.    In the SC4 online multiplayer world,  Neighbor Deals will become an important part of the game for those of us who continue pursuing its success as a social gaming activity.

Yes, I noticed this could certainly be an interesting feature of multiplayer SC4! I wonder if these can be set permanently if both neighbors agree to the same mayor deal and save around the same time (so the deal is reflected across both tiles). 

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

28 minutes ago, jmak said:

It might have to do with the simulator's time cost -- I don't have the values on me, but I remember reading somewhere that very long ferry distances don't translate to particularly long commute times in-game.

I'd say that's most likely the difference then. I recall a post a few months ago in which someone had a river with a few bridges over it and then added car and passenger ferries on each side as an additional travel option. The question was why did the ferries suddenly get overloaded with traffic and the Sims essentially abandoned using the bridges. As I recall this was while using NAM's Simulator z which strives for the quickest route rather than the shortest.

The answer was the time between ferry ports is zero so that made them the better path timewise.

[Tristy100 31]

I have a question, I try to claim the city in the middle cluster of cities with the little pond in the middle, but it says that claim is occupied? What do I do? I want to connect all the cities together better, but it won't let me claim it. Is there an issue with that once city? Or is it an issue with my game/connection. I have no issues booting it up, and can connect to Anise and see all the cities. It shows if there's a mayor or two online, etc. Also, whenever I disconnect, and try to X-out of the PMR Launcher, it always crashes. Thanks!

(I managed to start a town elsewhere, Bloomington)

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎21 at 10:25 AM, Tristy100 said:

Also, whenever I disconnect, and try to X-out of the PMR Launcher, it always crashes.

When exiting the PMR main window, clicking out the 'x' I also get an error message.  Maybe needs an 'exit to system' subroutine and an 'Exit' button?

__________

In my '\\\Documents\SimCity 4\_PMR\Plugins\' folder is the subfolder:
<DIR>          PMR Plugins.  

The NAM files are contained in both the _PMR folder and the PMR Plugins subfolder.  The files are duplicates, which folder are they supposed to be in? 

Other than that, PMR is working great.  I've completely eliminated all the 'cheats' I was initially using so now I'm playing pure vanilla (including the NAM stuff).  So my city won't immediatley fall apart if it is viewed by my neighbors.

[jmak 56]

6 hours ago, RandyE said:

On 1/21/2018 at 10:25 AM, Tristy100 said:

Also, whenever I disconnect, and try to X-out of the PMR Launcher, it always crashes.

When exiting the PMR main window, clicking out the 'x' I also get an error message.  Maybe needs an 'exit to system' subroutine and an 'Exit' button?

This is a known issue, and seems to be caused by one of the launcher’s threads not closing properly on disconnect. This is perfectly harmless (since you’re already disconnected at this point), but I am definitely working to fix this for the next release.

6 hours ago, RandyE said:

The files are duplicates, which folder are they supposed to be in? 

This also seems to be a bug: the launcher copies new plugins on top of each other instead of clearing the folder when a new version of the plugin pack is loaded. Just as with the first one, this is pretty harmless since duplicates don’t really change the behavior. However this is also planned to be fixed by next release.

6 hours ago, RandyE said:

Other than that, PMR is working great.

Glad to hear that! Since activity seems to be stabilizing with just under half of the region tiles claimed, I will probably increase the claims limit to 2 tiles/player soon. Will keep everyone posted.

[jmak 56]

It's been a while since I updated the server software, so here goes. One of the many perks of tying SC4 cities to a database is that you can attach metadata to saves very easily. In this case, I have added the capability to log RCI populations with each save. I also retroactively grabbed these values from previous saves, allowing me to construct this quick population graph of the Anise region:

So far only aggregated RCI populations are saved. However, I should be able to break things down to the $/$$/$$$ level, which should allow for some interesting statistics (maybe even a way to calculate regional GDP).

P.S. Anise broke through more than 1,000,000 sims today, woo!

[Tristy100 31]

15 hours ago, jmak said:

It's been a while since I updated the server software, so here goes. One of the many perks of tying SC4 cities to a database is that you can attach metadata to saves very easily. In this case, I have added the capability to log RCI populations with each save. I also retroactively grabbed these values from previous saves, allowing me to construct this quick population graph of the Anise region:

So far only aggregated RCI populations are saved. However, I should be able to break things down to the $/$$/$$$ level, which should allow for some interesting statistics (maybe even a way to calculate regional GDP).

P.S. Anise broke through more than 1,000,000 sims today, woo!

Wow! Almost to the size of my largest populated region to this day. Still working on Bloomington, just having some unemployment issues not related to PMR. Otherwise, everything is working for me.

[jmak 56]

1 hour ago, Tristy100 said:

Still working on Bloomington, just having some unemployment issues not related to PMR.

Yes, I’ve noticed this as well. It seems that RCI demand is fluctuating very widely because of the region’s explosive growth. (Adding thousands of CO$$$ jobs in one city can destroy demand for that in another city)

I’ve been toying with the idea of overriding the default RCI mechanism to make it less volatile, while still responding to regionwide trends. What do you all think?

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

5 hours ago, jmak said:

I’ve been toying with the idea of overriding the default RCI mechanism to make it less volatile, while still responding to regionwide trends. What do you all think?

 I'm not completely sure what you mean and how it would effect the individual city, but you are probably the best authority of how to make SC4 multiplayer work smoothly for everybody, so I'd say go ahead and do what you think will make the PMR function better.   

I think if we are not using demand, cap or jobs, cheats there will be a balance in the multiplayer region at least through the initial stages of development.  So if we all start with the same plugins, which may include money and unlocks, then the region should develop without one city being overwhelmed too much by another.   I am struggling to get high wealth residential and commercial, which is for me an interesting challenge, but if its because someone else is using demand, cap or job cheats, then it seems less interesting as a multiplayer effort.   The one thing we would want to keep is the interconnectivity.   I could sever all connections to my neighbors and do quite well on my own, but then why bother with multiplayer?

[Tristy100 31]

1 minute ago, RandyE said:

 I'm not completely sure what you mean and how it would effect the individual city, but you are probably the best authority of how to make SC4 multiplayer work smoothly for everybody, so I'd say go ahead and do what you think will make the PMR function better.   

I think if we are not using demand, cap or jobs, cheats there will be a balance in the multiplayer region at least through the initial stages of development.  So if we all start with the same plugins, which may include money and unlocks, then the region should develop without one city being overwhelmed too much by another.   I am struggling to get high wealth residential and commercial, which is for me an interesting challenge, but if its because someone else is using demand, cap or job cheats, then it seems less interesting as a multiplayer effort.   The one thing we would want to keep is the interconnectivity.   I could sever all connections to my neighbors and do quite well on my own, but then why bother with multiplayer?

Personally, I have mods installed, but none of them seem to work in this game, so I'm going in completely blind w/o my mods I rely on like double employment in small commercial services, super demand (faster growth), etc. I don't know if mods aren't working for others though, might be on my end, as my mods are in a different folder than my shortcut (I installed it confusingly, I don't even know anymore)

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

2 minutes ago, Tristy100 said:

Personally, I have mods installed, but none of them seem to work in this game, so I'm going in completely blind w/o my mods I rely on like double employment in small commercial services, super demand (faster growth), etc. I don't know if mods aren't working for others though, might be on my end, as my mods are in a different folder than my shortcut (I installed it confusingly, I don't even know anymore)

We have our install folder plugins which is separate from the PMR plugins, that is, in your user documents SimCity 4 folder.   So whatever plugins we have in the install plugins folder also load and are used when we play the multiplayer region.    I think we need to collectively agree on what plugins we will use in multiplayer.   I think its okay for us all to use money and unlocks cheats, but we need to define the contents of both folders so we are all playing on the same playing field.    We may even agree on using jobs doublers, but we should all be using the same mods if any.       

If you are using mods that effect the game for your city tile, then those mods may give you an advantage, but more likely at the disadvantage of your neighbors.  Its not like we are playing a game like Monopoly, and even if we were, there would have to be rules of the game by which we all start with equal advantage.   Especially with SC4, we each have access to powerful mods that basically can destroy any 'competition'. 

The city-builder multiplayer game is more so a co-operative game, its about how a bunch of players can work together to create a successful region.

So again, our host, programmer, @jmak hopefully will follow with his views of how we make SC4 multiplayer work equally for everybody.

[Tristy100 31]

6 minutes ago, RandyE said:

We have our install folder plugins which is separate from the PMR plugins, that is, in your user documents SimCity 4 folder.   So whatever plugins we have in the install plugins folder also load and are used when we play the multiplayer region.    I think we need to collectively agree on what plugins we will use in multiplayer.   I think its okay for us all to use money and unlocks cheats, but we need to define the contents of both folders so we are all playing on the same playing field.    We may even agree on using jobs doublers, but we should all be using the same mods if any.       

If you are using mods that effect the game for your city tile, then those mods may give you an advantage, but more likely at the disadvantage of your neighbors.  Its not like we are playing a game like Monopoly, and even if we were, there would have to be rules of the game by which we all start with equal advantage.   Especially with SC4, we each have access to powerful mods that basically can destroy any 'competition'. 

The city-builder multiplayer game is more so a co-operative game, its about how a bunch of players can work together to create a successful region.

So again, our host, programmer, @jmak hopefully will follow with his views of how we make SC4 multiplayer work equally for everybody.

I've seen it work in the past, a vanilla server, and a modded server (with certain mods @jmak will decide), but have them already installed to that region/server whatever. Just my personal suggestion. You should also be able to have one in each.

[velrox 39]

is it possible to add an auto-save plugin? it happened when i was busy browsing the traffic volumes of different networks and it crashed, all without saving in between.

and can we have Anise Highway Network Map (version 2)?

[rsc204 21,866]

On 20/01/2018 at 11:55 PM, jeffryfisher said:

Half of what I am wondering is whether there's a way to coax sims to commute via highway and rail across similar, almost-empty sectors that have no jobs. It may be that the "must have jobs" condition (echoed by Z1) was not exactly correct, that there's a trick (like running time off the clock in the intervening jobless sector) that can assimilate one connection's job availability so it will enable commuters to enter via another.

On 21/01/2018 at 4:46 AM, jmak said:

You bring up a good point about other modes of transport, and how sims generally avoid skipping tiles with those. It might have to do with the simulator's time cost -- I don't have the values on me, but I remember reading somewhere that very long ferry distances don't translate to particularly long commute times in-game. But the SC4 traffic simulator workings are still quite mysterious to me so I can't say for sure.

On 21/01/2018 at 5:19 AM, CorinaMarie said:

I'd say that's most likely the difference then. I recall a post a few months ago in which someone had a river with a few bridges over it and then added car and passenger ferries on each side as an additional travel option. The question was why did the ferries suddenly get overloaded with traffic and the Sims essentially abandoned using the bridges. As I recall this was while using NAM's Simulator z which strives for the quickest route rather than the shortest.

The answer was the time between ferry ports is zero so that made them the better path timewise.

Ferry traffic does not work anything like other traffic in-game, it is uniquely programmed and for the most part hard-coded in the .exe. Transit cost has nothing to do with it, this is all to do with the simulator, which will not see a neighbour connection as a viable route unless there exists jobs in the neighbouring city. For the most part, neighbour connections are quite dumb, sims will flock to a connection even when no actual jobs for them exist, just because some jobs do. Basically all the things that lead to the nasty eternal commuters are all tied into this system. The only thing the traffic simulator looks at is if the neighbour connection can be reached in time to find a job. Calculations of commute time simply don't work through borders, all such commutes are always "long" and will always been seen as valid. Even if in reality, the combined commute time from multiple cities would in-fact make the commute impossible. This part of the game is severely flawed in it's design, but then it would have been impossible to do it another way. There simply were not the resources available to calculate all this stuff on a regional level.

I suspect Maxis probably realised that ferries wouldn't be half as useful if they worked the same as other networks. So to ensure they would remain viable over larger distances or those of more than the bordering city the made a unique setup. It is right to say that the simulator pretty much teleports sims from one ferry terminal to another instantly. Because otherwise sims would take so long to get anywhere, they'd simply never use ferries in the first place.

Personally I've never found the limitation of regular networks to be a big issue. I've always space for the odd farm or something in tiles I don't otherwise really utilise. For example, making a highway rest stop lot with some commercial jobs would be enough to get sims to use the connection. Those that couldn't find a job there will then continue to the next tile. As usual most of these problems just require a little creative thinking to find solutions that work.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Ferry traffic does not work anything like other traffic in-game, it is uniquely programmed and for the most part hard-coded in the .exe. Transit cost has nothing to do with it, this is all to do with the simulator, which will not see a neighbour connection as a viable route unless there exists jobs in the neighbouring city.

If I am reading between the lines correctly, you're using "neighbour connection" to refer to road and rail but not ferries, is that right? A ferry doesn't count as a "connection"? In that case, I can see how a ferry could treat cars and people differently. I actually like the no-job = no-commuters rule. It means that I can stop my sims from pouring out of connections that have mere stubs on the other side.

As for transit cost: Some past "experts" described how the ferry terminal's entry cost affected whether a sim would choose it when other options were available (e.g. a bridge). The assertion was that the time-cost of entry was figured into the distance to reach it. To little and a ferry would drain all nearby workers out of a sector; too high and nobody would go there.

 

[rsc204 21,866]

14 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

A ferry doesn't count as a "connection"?

A ferry is absolutely a neighbour connection, provided another terminal exists elsewhere which connects to it via open water. It just doesn't work the same in terms of the passengers/cars that use it. This is because there is no route that you set such as you would when for example, drawing a road. The simulator knows with a road just how far a car needs to travel and how long it will take to do so. But there is no equivalent for ferry routes, sims just embark at one terminal, then disembark at the other end.

Think about it, if I want to go from Dover to Calais that's about 1h 30 - 2h on a ferry. But if a bridge or tunnel existed, even with much reduced speed limits, it's only 27m to cross. In short, the ferry would never be the quickest route, back in the land of SimCity, that means it will never be used. A simulator is not the real world, it has to "feel" real, which is subjective, so it's coded to make ferries a viable option, otherwise what would be the point of having them?

14 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

Some past "experts" described how the ferry terminal's entry cost affected whether a sim would choose it when other options were available (e.g. a bridge).

Every transit station has an entry cost, only some are quicker than others, it's also possible to use a 0 value too. In the case of ferry terminals, no such property exists, i.e. there is no cost to transfer to a ferry. Bear in mind, the idea behind the Transit Switch Entry Cost is that it takes time to switch from one type of transport to another. For example waiting for a bus, walking to a platform etc. In actuality, this isn't really used to control the speed of a network type, but to prevent sims using such lots as shortcuts. I.e. a sim parking at a station, walking through it and then driving away again on the other side. This property if set correctly, provides a disincentive to going through a station unless a sim is actually utilising it.

Within the confines of a single tile, if a ferry route is faster than a bridge, that's what sims will use. Indeed if you have a large bridge, it's likely sims will all want to use the ferry due to the reduced transit time across the water.

But what you can't do is make a ferry terminal that works one way for localised crossings, whilst having it work differently for inter-city travel. Thus because ferries are necessarily fast to make them a viable inter-city transport option, they are similarly seen as a very efficient way of crossing a river within a single tile. Sims route preferences are not solely based upon such a crossing, but the entire route from their homes to a job. So it's absolutely possible to make bridges or tunnels a more viable route than a ferry, it all depends on the zoning, routes available and all the other usual factors.

The only thing you really need to get your head around to understand ferries, they are not a normal method of transit and the crossings are not simulated in the usual manner.

[matias93 7,535]

Maybe this could be useful: ferries cannot go under bridges with less than 30 metres of clearance, nor through waters shallower than 6 metres. Using that, you can force the ferries to take unusually long routes that make them useful for regional travel but not local. For example, create a sand bank in the middle of a river to avoid ferries to cross it.

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

2 minutes ago, matias93 said:

Using that, you can force the ferries to take unusually long routes that make them useful for regional travel but not local.

Brilliant!

[matias93 7,535]

25 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

Brilliant!

All these years creating scenarios for Age of Empires are at last giving their fruits!

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

8 hours ago, rsc204 said:

A ferry is absolutely a neighbour connection

 

On 1/26/2018 at 9:29 AM, rsc204 said:

the simulator, which will not see a neighbour connection as a viable route unless there exists jobs in the neighbouring city

OK, here's my confusion and why I asked for clarification: You make a blanket statement that the simulator won't see a connection as a viable route unless there are jobs, and you include ferries in your definition of connections. So in one sentence you seem to be saying that ferries will NOT take commuters into sectors that have no jobs (i.e. all-water sectors), but in the sentence above it you said ferries were distinct. My brain is short-circuiting...

Star Trek: "I, Mudd"

I suspect that your statement about needing jobs was aimed at some collection other than the set of all connections that would include ferry routes. I apologize for being tendentious, but I come at game rules as a computer programmer, not a normal human being

[Tristy100 31]

Personally, I'm not a fan of forced mods. We do need separate regions w/ separate mods. We could have an un-modded version of Anise, and a modded version. There should be no "sponsored mods." I'm assuming people aren't out here trying to steal others jobs, and cause others cities to fall, this is a co-op version, not a PvE version. There also should be region requirements. Each month, your city needs to have 10% more of the land zoned/built on. So, by the first month of a claim, you need to have 10% water/built on. 2nd month is 20% water or built on, etc. It would be a good time frame for people, but still while pushing development. There should be no population requirement, as some pc's cant handle 100k plus, or some people just want a suburban/rural region. Just a couple suggestions.

We're over 2.5mill people now!

[CorinaMarie 29,894]

2 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

I suspect that your statement about needing jobs was aimed at some collection other than the set of all connections that would include ferry routes. I apologize for being tendentious, but I come at game rules as a computer programmer, not a normal human being

I'll take a try at this.

• All land based transportation connections, whether above or below ground, require existing jobs in the neighbor city tile or the Sims will not see that as a viable option for travel to employment.
• Ferry routes are seen as connections to neighbors which have the requirement of jobs in the adjacent tile superseded by some game code.

[rsc204 21,866]

2 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

Ferry routes are seen as connections to neighbors which have the requirement of jobs in the adjacent tile superseded by some game code.

Well, here's a doozy for ya. When you plop a ferry terminal in a blank tile, it has... jobs, OK not many (2 for the Ped version), but that may be a factor.

But actually, just looking at the transit map also throws light onto why a ferry terminal simply must exist in intermediate tile for sims to see it as a viable route:

Simply turn on the transport view in the region view screen and it's pretty obvious why there will be no ferry traffic here. Just in case you've missed it, the potential ferry routes only work when every neighbouring tile along the route has them active, which is done by placing a ferry terminal in them.

5 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

I suspect that your statement about needing jobs was aimed at some collection other than the set of all connections that would include ferry routes. I apologize for being tendentious, but I come at game rules as a computer programmer, not a normal human being

No, all connections will require jobs on the other side or the simulator won't use them.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

12 hours ago, rsc204 said:

a ferry terminal in a blank tile, it has... jobs, OK not many (2 for the Ped version)

Aha -- I think that solves the puzzle. The underwater terminals satisfy two requirements: Activating ferry routes and guaranteeing that the sector "has jobs".

[velrox 39]

is the project dead? it used to be popular, but it's a wasteland with only a player online or none.

[rsc204 21,866]

12 hours ago, velrox said:

is the project dead? it used to be popular, but it's a wasteland with only a player online or none.

You know it's all still a bit new, when it was first released I guess a lot of people were curious to see it in action. Now that the initial rush has settled down, I guess we'll have to see what activity is like over the longer term.

But to suggest a project is dead after what, a month and only weeks without an update, well I think that's probably jumping the gun a little.