SimCity 4 and 32-bit color in full screen

[Mister Giggles 310]

I'm opening Pandora's Box with this. God help us all.

Problem: SimCity 4 does not render in 32-bit color while running in exclusive (full screen) mode. Ever. For anyone. It has not done so for so long I'm not even sure it ever properly ran 32-bit color mode while full screen. It is not video card, CPU, or operating system related; I've seen it with various mixes of Intel, AMD, Linux, Windows, Radeon, and Nvidia hardware and software. SimCity 4 ignores command lines directing it to use 32-bit color.

An easy way to test this is to remove your water mod, and load up a big old water map. You'll see rather stark color banding on the Maxis water. Next, run the game with the command line "-w" to run the game in a window and look at the same water. No color banding.

It's not the end of the world, mind, since the game WAS designed with 16-bit color in mind. It does become a problem with any large, flat textures that are meant to gradually change colors.

The situation boils down to this question:

Is there a way to force SimCity 4 to use 32-bit color in full screen through a hack/fix, forcing it via the driver, creating a special resolution that disallows 16-bit color, or other solution I haven't thought of?

We've dealing with buggy code on SC4's part, undoubtably, so there may be nothing that can be done without source code. Still, this problem has wore on me for a long time so any kind of resolution is better than nothing. Horrible, empty nothing.

  Edited September 20, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[Indiana Joe 1,750]

Never noticed the "color banding" you're talking about, can you post a screenshot of it?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I too have never seen this.  I run full screen all that time.  Further, I have run in DirectX, Software and OpenGL and never seen it.  Mind you, my experience is limited to only two machines:  My old Pentium system with an NVIDIA card and this AMD system with an AMD card (out of support and driven by X-org default).  On the older system I ran XP before I ran Linux.  No apparent differences.  I have always set 32-bit colour using the command line parameters:

-CustomResolution:enabled -r1920x1080x32

What other evidence have you developed?  Have you a positive test other than the observations noted above?  Anecdotal evidence in this case is insufficient.

Perhaps what is being seen is a case of 16-bit textures rather than a failure of the entire program.

[Mister Giggles 310]

Note: Having just been inspired by Nonny, I tested software mode. Software mode properly blends colors! Hardware mode is the only one affected by the color banding issue. Small miracles, indeed. Everything below applies only for hardware mode.

Indiana: Up and coming, sirrah.

Nonny: It ignores the command line settings for color depth when you try to force 32-bit color mode in full screen. I've seen the color banding on snow, as well. Really, any large, flat, repetitive texture will fall victim to it. I've even seen in on a building once, one that had a huge flat side to it. If I recall, that was the one that woke me up to the problem in the first place.

I'm confident enough in this being a game bug that I'll say you've both seen it (If you've ever run hardware mode), but never had the context for understanding what it is. It's always been normal to you. And once, it was normal to me.

Below is the color banding, a result of running in 16-bit color. Note the stark, jagged lines when the color jumps a shade:

No color banding, a result of Windows handing the compositing:

The application log, located in SimCity 4 Deluxe Edition\Apps, notes when the game is running in which color depth with "screenBPP". When run in full screen, "16" will be logged regardless of actual setting. When run in windowed mode, "32" will be logged, although I suspect you can adjust your desktop's color depth to affect this.

  Edited September 20, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

From my last run using DirectX under wine with Ubuntu 15.04.

screenBPP = 32  in the numbers section.

I think you may have driver problems.  My RS780 (ATI 3000) chip set is not supported by AMD any longer, but the driver is Gallium 0.4

And from the Strings section, this is what wine is telling the game:

appName = SimCity 4
version = 1.1.641.0
osVersion = Windows NT 6.1
computerName = john-12-10
CPU = AuthenticAMD
sglDriverName = DirectX
sglDriverVersion = 2.0
driverName = atiumdag.dll
driverVersion = 8.17.10.1280, GUID: AEB2CDD4-6E41-43EA-941C-8361CC760781
cardName = ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics
cardVersion = Vendor: 1002, Device: 9620, Board: 0000, Chipset: 0000
cardIdentity = ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics

 

[Mister Giggles 310]

Running Mint using the official Nvidia drivers, I get color banding in full screen with hardware mode. If you are indeed not getting color banding while using hardware mode on open source drivers, then there's hope that the issue isn't immutable. At least, when we mass exodus to Linux.

Thanks, Windows 10.

[Indiana Joe 1,750]

Ah yep, there it is for sure.  I try to never look at that ugly neon blue Maxis water for too long.  That would probably be why I never noticed it.

To be honest, after seeing the game on several different computers, every time there were a slight graphical differences and anomalies.  I personally get a very faint vertical-striped film grain effect when using an NVidia card.  I always figured it was just signs of SC4's age.  Probably stuff that was originally a bug when the game first came out.  But on the old CRT monitors, nobody ever noticed that sort of thing.

 

I'm not sure if EA's FSH file format even fully supports 32 bit color.  Here's a zoomed-in example of a PNG texture I have experimented with, and the same texture once it's converted to FSH format:

 

(If you look closely, especially around the rails and sleepers, there's a noticable degradation in color quality.  Forgive the PNG images but you need full color to notice the difference.)

 

  Edited September 20, 2015 by Indiana Joe  

[Mister Giggles 310]

 But on the old CRT monitors, nobody ever noticed that sort of thing.

 

Interestingly, I am using a CRT and I do not notice that specific grainy-screen issue. Granted, I have one of the highest end CRTs that was available back 10 years ago...

After a while, it gets hard to tell what's SC4-specific and what's driver/hardware specific.

 

I'm not sure if EA's FSH file format even fully supports 32 bit color.  Here's a zoomed-in example of a PNG texture I have experimented with, and the same texture once it's converted to FSH format:

 

I'd wager you're correct, based on the pictures. We can add it onto the slowly growing pile of issues with the game.

Based on a search of this so-called "internet", it seems dithering would get rid of the horrific banding in 16-bit color depths. At one point Nvidia and Radeon provided such a thing in their drivers, but no longer. It could be forced using SweetFX, except SweetFX doesn't work on DirectX7 games, which SC4 is. And there doesn't appear to be a hack to convert DirectX7 calls to DirectX9 ones to allow it to function.

Creek, meet up a river sans paddle.We're a bit further than we were yesterday, at least...

Edit: The color depth bug has been reported before! No solution...

  Edited September 21, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[rsc204 21,836]

Maybe it is the drivers that are affecting it, I've just checked and indeed my Win7/NVidia system is reporting 16-Bit colour also, I always run in full screen.

That said, I never see the issue you are showing here, but that could be because I barely have any of the Maxis textures left in my game? Why not try adding a water mod with better textures, it's a workaround, but if the results are more pleasing to the eye it's the easiest solution.

[Mister Giggles 310]

The color banding issue shows up in more places than the water, it's just the water where it's most noticeable.

By making the game borderless, using SC4Launcher or other program, you can effectively have full screen in a window. This eliminates the color banding problem. Except edge scrolling with the mouse doesn't work, so it boils down to what drives you more nuts: Color banding, or lack of edge scrolling with the mouse.

  Edited September 21, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Don't think I mentioned that I have a newer HD monitor, and I am running at 1080p.  I do get 32-bit colour according to the system log.

[markussaage 762]

I just noticed, that my Win7/nVidia system is reporting 16-bit color depth, too. Running the game full screen in 1920x1080x32 in the command line. Never noticed that. But I use a terrain/water mod as well...
Could it be that only nVidia cards/drivers have this issue?

Kind regards!

[Mister Giggles 310]

It impacts Radeon cards, as well. It's a nigh universal problem. Nonny is unique at the moment, since his game is running in 32-bit depth mode in full screen. He's also running Linux and the open source drivers for his video card, so he's not representative of the populace. Sadly.

[rsc204 21,836]

Maybe Linux is the solution then?

But that does suggest to me that the drivers are responsible. Wouldn't shock me to learn that some required compatibility mode was removed at some point triggering these problems on newer hardware?

I could dig out an old 2001 Thinkpad I still have and run some tests, it has some fairly out of date drivers that would perhaps shed some more light on this?

That said, I really don't see a problem with the graphics in my game, honestly this banding effect just doesn't show up in my game at all. The worst I get is a little screen tearing, I did have that sorted fiddling with the driver 3D settings, but it's come back following corruption of my SC4 install a few weeks back. No amount of understanding the reason will likely fix the problem, so your best bet is to find a workaround you are happy with.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

From my last run using DirectX under wine with Ubuntu 15.04.

screenBPP = 32  in the numbers section.

I think you may have driver problems.  My RS780 (ATI 3000) chip set is not supported by AMD any longer, but the driver is Gallium 0.4

And from the Strings section, this is what wine is telling the game:

appName = SimCity 4
version = 1.1.641.0
osVersion = Windows NT 6.1
computerName = john-12-10
CPU = AuthenticAMD
sglDriverName = DirectX
sglDriverVersion = 2.0
driverName = atiumdag.dll
driverVersion = 8.17.10.1280, GUID: AEB2CDD4-6E41-43EA-941C-8361CC760781
cardName = ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics
cardVersion = Vendor: 1002, Device: 9620, Board: 0000, Chipset: 0000
cardIdentity = ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics

 

Yes, I really do think it is current drivers that are the problem, and probably like the Intel cards, the others are taking out stuff they don't think is useful any longer.  My instinct as an old O/S sweat from both the user and developer perspectives say that some old feature can only be kept around so long before it has to make room for something else including budget considerations.  Linux/wine tends to want to support everything under the sun (and under the moon too).

With Windows 10 I think we are starting into the slippery slope of giving up support of 32-bit programs and environments altogether.  Not surprising since I was using 128-bit power PCs (AIX) when I was still teaching before 2003.  I have been expecting a 128-bit x86 machine for some time now, and it really doesn't make any sense to support the 32-bit stuff with that kind of architecture.

I think if EA wants to continue to milk their SC4 Deluxe cash cow they might consider investing in a 64-bit recompile of the program and re-release it as SimCity 4.5 with minimal if any changes.  Perhaps fix the multitasking, but perhaps not even that.

[Mister Giggles 310]

In my opinion there are two issues.

1: SimCity 4 doesn't run in 32-bit color mode. Never has. No one noticed since, with dithering, you never saw the color banding. At this juncture I am willing to accept it as either a game bug or DirectX bug.

2: Both AMD and Nvidia removed dithering from their drivers several years ago.

It could be that the game is still running in 16-bit color for Nonny while WINE's behavior is causing SC4 to incorrectly report it. Or it could be that WINE, in combination with the open source drivers, is actually causing SC4 to run into 32-bit color depth. All I know is that on Linux Mint, using the official Nvidia drivers, I still get locked into 16-bit color.

EA should release, at minimum, a patch to enable disc-based versions of the game to function without the DRM. Fixing the 16-bit color depth bug would be a nice bonus...

Multi-threading SC4 would require rewriting the engine to take advantage of the concept. We'll be getting the source code before EA will spend that kind of time and money. Especially the modern, hilariously evil EA.

I could dig out an old 2001 Thinkpad I still have and run some tests, it has some fairly out of date drivers that would perhaps shed some more light on this?

You'd most likely get the proper behavior, because the hardware is old and will use old drivers.

  Edited September 24, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[Indiana Joe 1,750]

I think if EA wants to continue to milk their SC4 Deluxe cash cow they might consider investing in a 64-bit recompile of the program and re-release it as SimCity 4.5 with minimal if any changes.  Perhaps fix the multitasking, but perhaps not even that.

 

EA should release, at minimum, a patch to enable disc-based versions of the game to function without the DRM. Fixing the 16-bit color depth bug would be a nice bonus...

 

Last I heard, EA took down the DLC downloads, and no longer moderates the servers, for their 2013 SimCity.  I doubt they will ever re-visit SC4.

Once Maxis Emeryville closed down, I don't think anyone took over their responsibilities.  The SimCity franchise is dormant once again.

  Edited September 24, 2015 by Indiana Joe  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

With respect to the present management at EA, you are probably correct.  However, I believe that unless the management is particularly adroit, there will be a turnover sometime in the next lustrum.  Management teams are somewhat like day flies.  Once they mate (produce a dividend) they are doomed.

Often, a new management team will set up an examination of all the inventory and decide which assets are worth keeping.  With luck, somebody will find that mouldering old SC4 Deluxe property and decide that the cash flow could be improved by a little simple maintenance to carry it forward onto newer gear.

Then there is the possibility of a (hostile) takeover by some corporate raider.  It depends on how much cash EA is sitting on in its treasury.

Judge for yourselves.  Here is a link to their real-time positioning on NASDAQ. (Over the counter trading).

[rsc204 21,836]

EA should release, at minimum, a patch to enable disc-based versions of the game to function without the DRM. Fixing the 16-bit color depth bug would be a nice bonus...

Not going to happen, in fairness they will replace it with a new DRM version for free, oddly for EA, that's better than most.

The best way for SC4 to go forward (in terms of coding) would be to hand the source code to the fans, that's not going to happen either. I seriously doubt there will be any movement on fixing/updating the code for SC4 ever, happy to be proven wrong though. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^  Tsk. tsk.  "Look on the bright side of life." -- Monty Python's Life of Brian.

[Compdude787 916]

The color banding issue shows up in more places than the water, it's just the water where it's most noticeable.

By making the game borderless, using SC4Launcher or other program, you can effectively have full screen in a window. This eliminates the color banding problem. Except edge scrolling with the mouse doesn't work, so it boils down to what drives you more nuts: Color banding, or lack of edge scrolling with the mouse.

Well, I run the game in windowed mode and I don't have edge scrolling, but that's okay. I just right-click and drag.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I suppose the colour banding problem is a feature of the GPUs being used.  I don't have it, but remember that wine will convert DirectX calls to OpenGL, since this is the native mode for Linux.

[Thredz 1]

I agree, the game doesn"t render in 32 in full screen because night light are not in 32 in full screen and give an ugly picture of a town and streets. Only the windowed mod can do it.

Just 2 screenshots of the night with the same light, same resolution but different mode (-w and fullscreen). The first is in windowed mode and the second in fullscreen. The weight of the screenshots also change in png from fraps : 1.2mo and 640ko so the game generate a low resolution in full screen.

[ChoryF 0]

Hey all,
This is pretty confusing to me: I am running the game on Steam on a new MacBook Air with the M1 chip; theoretically it shouldn't run? I do not have this color banding issue…I'm trying to suss-out whether other games floated on Steam or Origin will load on this Mac.
Thanks!

[rsc204 21,836]

2 hours ago, ChoryF said:

This is pretty confusing to me:

Well let's start by saying the 16/32-bit colour thing doesn't really apply to you, although presumably because the Mac version also converts DirectX into OpenGL calls, it appears it does indeed run 32-bit colour just fine. The solution to this under Windows is a modified .exe, but you won't need that.

2 hours ago, ChoryF said:

I am running the game on Steam on a new MacBook Air with the M1 chip; theoretically it shouldn't run?

Why is that?

Rosetta II, a feature in MacOS, is designed to ensure legacy Intel/64-bit code can still run on your M1 Mac. However, you need to be aware Apple will not likely keep this as part of the OS for more than a few more years, so if you are reliant on it, you'll either have to keep an old version of MacOS at some point or find updated M1 (ARM) compatible versions of your software, which may or may not exist.

2 hours ago, ChoryF said:

I'm trying to suss-out whether other games floated on Steam or Origin will load on this Mac.

Possibly, but if it's not coded for ARM, see the above caveat that even if it works now, before too long without an update it won't any more.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,061]

Just wanna chime in with my own 32-bit story.

The only way in which I can run the game in 32-bit is through the SC4 Launcher through the borderless window. However, the problem is it's not entirely borderless... On one of my computers, the window label is still partly visible and it somewhat quells my enthusiasm:

 

Is there any way to make it really borderless so I can enjoy the 32-bit color depth with no "buts"?

 

[Cyclone Boom 17,016]

21 minutes ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

Is there any way to make it really borderless so I can enjoy the 32-bit color depth with no "buts"?

Perhaps a wrapper tool might help achieve this, as these two topics explain about:
 

 

 

I'm not totally sure about this having not experimented with them myself, but there is mention about borderless windows.

Just thought I'd point this out until any experts on the subject might have a better idea.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,061]

Thanks @Cyclone Boom. At least some research material for now.

My other question though, would be the software rendering. This is another method in which I can obtain the 32-bit depth.

However, do I lose anything in the way of graphics quality when running in this mode? I know that software rendering generally looks bad in other games.

[Cyclone Boom 17,016]

10 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

My other question though, would be the software rendering. This is another method in which I can obtain the 32-bit depth.

However, do I lose anything in the way of graphics quality when running in this mode?

Hardware mode is certainly the preferable option. This is required for if wanting HD models to display in game, as otherwise it'll crash if only in Software rendering mode. I do believe there are performance and rendering quality benefits to Hardware mode, and so if one's GPU is powerful enough it's the one to use. Otherwise the Software renderer is available for compatibility reasons, which uses the computer processor to render. This means the graphics aren't handled independently.

There also is OpenGL mode, but this is notoriously glitchy. Some people have had success with that too however, and is technically an alternate Hardware mode.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,061]

11 minutes ago, Cyclone Boom said:

Hardware mode is certainly the preferable option. This is required for if wanting HD models to display in game, as otherwise it'll crash if only in Software rendering mode.

Yeah, just tried it... The shadows look terrible. 

Hmm, none of the wrappers does the trick and the border is visible.

I wonder though why the log shows that Intel is my GPU despite me having NVIDIA GTX 900 series...? Not sure if this is a step forward in that case but still...