Can you remove the base from a BAT?

[rsc204 21,806]

Hi,

I'm in the process of making a railway shed and I'd like to remove the base from the model where the rails would go with the intention of using textures later to display them. Is this possible at all, if so could someone advise me of a good way to do it? I'm using SC4BAT if that makes any difference.

Thanks.

[Girafe 1,729]

Any picture to show exactly what you would like

[rsc204 21,806]

Here is an early mock-up of the basic shape. What I'd like to do is have the area inside the shed empty, so the train props can be added, I think I can accomplish this using custom LODs that leave the inside area free.

But the green base or floor of the depot is what I'd like to remove if possible, although without a base I can't export a working render it seems? I wondered if it would be possible to just make it see-through like glass somehow, I just want it removed where the gap for the doors are though.

[SimCoug 5,972]

I think Jasoncw created a train station similar to what you are proposing... maybe send him a PM or ask on his thread?  

[blunder 1,079]

you dont need to even have a floor if that's what you're asking.  i've rendered buildings before, such as my unreleased zeppelin hangar, without the floor and it works fine.  Walls and ceilings ceilings for the building and using the game tile for floor 'texture' is ok.  You will need to make custom LODs to place other items inside, though.

edit: it does play funny with the shadows.  you might want to experiment with using a transparent glass layer, like you theorized.  Will elaborate tonight when i get home from work.

  Edited September 4, 2015 by blunder  

[Girafe 1,729]

something like that

 

[rsc204 21,806]

Thanks to all for the assistance, I think I confused myself with the problem I was having. The front/back parts of the building were made from a rectangle that was then extruded to create the gaps. This leaves an unsightly bump (yellow circle) where the texture comes through. I haven't made custom LODs yet, so I'm not sure how but removing the base was enough to allow the rail props to show inside along with the rail textures - perhaps it's because I never use the correct dimensions for the occupant size of props, usually .5,.5,.5 is my default? 

I guess if I'm less lazy and re-create the front and back parts as 4 separate rectangles, then the bump will go away since that part of the model won't exist anymore. :EDIT: Yup, that's solved it, now I just need to detail and texture it. I will probably make some custom LODs anyway, since other props may not just magically appear correctly.

I've circled in red another prop I'm working on, some rail-maintenance platforms, I'm reasonably pleased with this since I've not textured it yet or anything. The yellow handrails are a little wonky, but I'm guessing when you make objects really small they just don't look right... I'll come back on that one with a picture in the right orientation when I've finished working on it.

[SimCoug 5,972]

Neat, the platforms would be a great addition.  Maybe include various lengths and angles (diagonal, and FAR2 and FAR3 versions?)  
Platforms in anything other than ortho are nearly impossible to find

[Girafe 1,729]

I attached a LOD that would fit your case

LOD.3DS

[rsc204 21,806]

Neat, the platforms would be a great addition.  Maybe include various lengths and angles (diagonal, and FAR2 and FAR3 versions?)  
Platforms in anything other than ortho are nearly impossible to find

Hadn't thought about that, but variety is always a good thing and it takes seconds to rotate and re-render them. The base prop is 4m (roughly), I'm planning on adding a 16m too, then there will be a 4-8m prop including stairs, I'll make a flipped version so the fit on either end too. I guess I need to start a BAT thread soon...

I attached a LOD that would fit your case

LOD.3DS

Thank you very much.

[Bombardiere 591]

Yes, four rectangle does slove this. I would have used a line tool. I would have drawn a line according to doors and then included roof triangle into to it. If I plan the dimensions ahead, it is pretty easy set the cordinates usind "Keyboard entry" panel. (well easy, assuming that you do not do mistakes as often as I do when typing  cordinate points. ) That  way you could use one texture on whole wall, and it would be easier to make effects and texture dirt.

[rsc204 21,806]

On 05/09/2015 at 10:25 AM, Bombardiere said:

Yes, four rectangle does slove this. I would have used a line tool. I would have drawn a line according to doors and then included roof triangle into to it. If I plan the dimensions ahead, it is pretty easy set the cordinates usind "Keyboard entry" panel. (well easy, assuming that you do not do mistakes as often as I do when typing  cordinate points. ) That  way you could use one texture on whole wall, and it would be easier to make effects and texture dirt.

Thanks for this tip, would have been much harder to do it with separate objects. No need to type any coordinates, just use the snap function to drag between existing points of the wall. One slight issue, I now need to remake the roof, since it wasn't well aligned with the walls, but I'm making progress:

[Bombardiere 591]

True, in SC4 you might even get away with free hand lines. I find that set cordinates help detail work. Such as align that roof. But I am new to 3D modelling and my skill level is low. I think that the experts would laught if they would see how I make my models. For example I am not skilled with snap tool. That is why I am using precise cordinates. It is a slow way to do it, but that way I achieve what I want.

[rsc204 21,806]

I'm not even at your level, I've made some simple props but the process is tedious and I'm still just scratching the surface. It's a hard learning curve and without the support/suggestions of others I think I would be hopelessly stuck. Texturing is really my biggest problem, I'm just not artistically inclined, however simple corrugated iron shouldn't be too taxing I hope.

I'd really like to make a number of UK themed props and then move on to some Industrial, Business and Retail Park buildings, along with some houses and shops. I've always struggled to really make a UK-styled city, if I can crack the BAT then I'm open to making almost everything I need to do so.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Just keep at it. In the beginning everything is overwhelming and difficult, but then everything sinks in and becomes second nature.

[rsc204 21,806]

I've managed to get the basic shape sorted now, I'm reasonably happy with it, but of course would welcome any comments:

The idea is to make something resembling this:

Sorry it's a model itself, but I couldn't find any good pictures of the real thing, but that's similar to the depot that was near where I grew up.

Obviously I need to deal with the repeating texture since that looks odd, otherwise how is the colour scheme looking, I've a feeling it's a bit too bright.

I've yet to add the doors and some roof junk too. Any suggestions on how to make the yellow part round the base, can I add a second texture without having to create new objects and apply them to this area?

[Belfastsocrates 1,752]

I think the texture and colour are great personally. It looks like a modern train depot building and the colours match that feel. You could maybe tone the brightness down slightly but I don't have an issue with it currently.

[Bombardiere 591]

 

 

Any suggestions on how to make the yellow part round the base, can I add a second texture without having to create new objects and apply them to this area?

No, not really. You can add yellow line into the texture, but as far as I know, it is not possible to have two textures in one object. (well I guess it could be done, but a way I can think is complicated, would require messing with polygons and triangles and may not be doable in GMAX.) . So you could play with the texture picture, but I would do a box with yellow texture. Perhaps a slight slope on top of the box, so it would look nice.

 

GMAX is such a bleach. It is hard to estimate how the textures will look on finished BAT. I have to constantly do SC4 render to see how my model will look in the game. Even the preview is not always helping and constant test and render cycles slows the work. 

[Jasoncw 11,840]

@Bombardiere : The BAT preview render is 99% accurate, with the only difference being the barely noticeable compression from the .FSH image type. To speed up your workflow, take a screenshot from the game, bring it into Photoshop, and then when you do a preview render in gmax, take a screenshot of it, and paste it into your photoshop file. Delete the black matting and you'll have a mockup of your BAT in the game.

@rsc204 : Like the others have said, you can either include the stripe in the texture, or you can model the yellow part separately and have two separate materials. imo it's often times best to include different parts in the texture when there's things like grime or some other pattern that should carry across to the different areas. So for example, if there was a yellow stripe painted on the corrugated steel, you want the corrugation pattern to carry over seamlessly to the yellow stripe, and you want any grime or weathering to carry over to the yellow stripe as well.

But in this situation if you look closely the yellow part is a foundation or whatever, and the corrugated part is layered on top of that. So it's not a yellow stripe, it's two different things and they're not flush with each other. So aside from the color differences I think these things need to be modeled separately anyway. You can also see that on the roof there's a little bit of a lip that overhangs the walls.

[Bombardiere 591]

@Bombardiere : The BAT preview render is 99% accurate, with the only difference being the barely noticeable compression from the .FSH image type. To speed up your workflow, take a screenshot from the game, bring it into Photoshop, and then when you do a preview render in gmax, take a screenshot of it, and paste it into your photoshop file. Delete the black matting and you'll have a mockup of your BAT in the game.

Aaaahh let me explain.  I like model in HD and in GMAX the preview is level 5 zoom. (the best preview)  And HD doesn't look at its best on level 5 zoom. Especially if I use brick texture. Bit of a problem to me.

[rsc204 21,806]

On 08/09/2015 at 10:35 AM, Bombardiere said:

Aaaahh let me explain.  I like model in HD and in GMAX the preview is level 5 zoom. (the best preview)  And HD doesn't look at its best on level 5 zoom. Especially if I use brick texture. Bit of a problem to me.

One solution would be to render a couple different models at a time and have a test lot with multiple props. Use the reader to make copies of the prop exemplar, right click the copies and select "Generate new Group and Instance" to automatically give them new IDs. Then simply adjust the group ID of the rendered props (tools, TGI editor) to match a couple group ID's which have to fit the group part of the Resource Key Type X property of the prop exemplars you made earlier. At least then you can test a couple different variants at once.

Just thought I'd show an update, the base is now added, also some lights, the door and I've added the lip to the roof section too.

[madhatter106 3,903]

I would "cheat" the wall thickness a little tiny bit in the area where we can actually see it, ie. the doorway...maybe as much as 0.1 more.  Right now it looks like it has no thickness, or barely any thickness at all.  I know it's not supposed to be as thick as masonry, but a little bit added will make it appear more 3D.  

Also, in one of the preview renders earlier, be careful how you align your texture - the vertical "slats" or striations in the texture lined up with the vertical side of the doorway on the left side, but not on the right - it appeared the doorway was "cut" into one of them, rather than lining up with the side of one of them.  (Difficult to describe, but I hope it makes sense?)

[rsc204 21,806]

After some more work the last few days, I feel I'm getting very close to being done with this model, I'm also starting to feel a bit more confident with the BAT tool. Here is the latest version of the Rail Depot:

I've taken MadHatters advice and extruded the front a little more, finished off the texturing (maybe needs some tinkering for weathering/dirt though) and even done some night lighting.

The plan is to release the standalone prop you see, along with a couple variants (front, middle, end) that can be used as a modular set, although in essence they will retain similar looks to the model you see here. I've still got to fit the custom LODs in, but with the final model that will take some work since it's starting to get a little complex now.

Any advice or comments would be very gratefully received at this point.

[Belfastsocrates 1,752]

That's come along very nicely indeed! Great work R  

[MushyMushy 3,617]

That looks very good! I'd certainly use it.

I think my only suggestion is to maybe make the roof windows have more detail at night. Right now they look very flat like the windows on Maxis buildings. From what I can tell, on your model the windows are letting us see inside the building and at night you put a light inside to illuminate them; I'd suggest possibly making the window texture more varied or adding some clutter inside the building (which will then be illuminated at night by the light) to make it more varied.

[rsc204 21,806]

I've fitted the custom LODs now, but still nothing inside is being shown through the glass, it's not a texture just a transparent colour, although only 85 opacity so perhaps I need to make it more transparent. That said, I would expect to see the rail textures there so perhaps it's the custom LOD, it doesn't have a base, so maybe I'll try adding one to see if that makes a difference, I had to add parts where the closed doors are to get them to show properly, otherwise I'm stumped on this one. If the worst happens and I can't improve it, I'll swap them for textures which don't show the inside.

[matias93 7,535]

Abusing the opportunity, could you do some GLR-compatible depots? I haven't find any in months of search...

 

Oh, forget it, it will be props, I'll made the GLR connection (I have to practice in the Lot Editor, anyway)

  Edited September 12, 2015 by matias93  

[rsc204 21,806]

Actually, a lot of these types of props get made with the rail textures batted into them, I won't be doing that ever. That way it can easily be repurposed for GLR, HSR or frankly whatever by simply changing the textures. I've just double-checked and both HSR and GLR will fit as they are the same width as the rail textures. Custom textures would be needed as the distance between one set and the other is not standard to any texture set I know of.

I would point out, the props are basically being made to complete a rail depot lot, so it should be a cynch to create GLR/HSR variants for release, lotters are of course welcome to make use of the props as-is however.

[matias93 7,535]

In fact, what I want to do is to replicate this beauty (Talleres Neptuno - Metro de Santiago):

^{by the way, that highway (Ruta 68 - Chile) is a perfect equivalent of the Maxis Highway, and just as ill-scaled as is.}

My previewed alternative is to lot the depots overhanging a bit, so when plopped in line, they looks seamless and form bigger structures.

Evidently, another alternative is to lot the whole workshops in just one mega-lot, but that's way beyond my skills, and it will surely be really hard to use in any city. The entire lot is 560 x 420 meters (~34 x 25 sc4 tiles)

[rsc204 21,806]

Maybe I am missing something, but I thought with the transparent roof-windows it would be possible to see the textures and props inside the rail depot? Yet it seems this is not the case? My custom LODs are as tight as I dare without missing certain details, is there something special I need to do for this to work? I'm just about ready to call it a day and switch the roof windows to textures instead at this point.

At least I'm starting to feel more comfortable with the BAT tool, I'll be starting a thread for my BATs once I've got some new models to show my progress.

In fact, what I want to do is to replicate this beauty (Talleres Neptuno - Metro de Santiago):

That would be some task indeed if you are new to lotting, I suspect some compromises would be necessary too. There are some GLR-Textures for this sort of thing in one of the 3 main BSC Texture Mega Packs, although I'm not sure how similar this depot is, certainly there is more variety in the picture.