Reddonquixote's BAT thread

[SimCoug 5,972]

I can't believe I haven't posted here yet... Each BAT project you turn out is top notch so I guess I've never had anything to add. But regarding the herald sun building, I would vote for a more historical look. And a diagonal render would be icing on the cake (you wouldn't even need to worry about loting it, let others have fun with it).

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

Running late but just thought I'd quickly post these for comment before I head out... ran out of time for the 4th render image lol but should show enough of the changes since last time. Please let me know what you think

 

[T Wrecks 10,209]

The general awesomeness of this BAT put aside for a moment, I'm not entirely sure about the reflections. They look a tad too defined in some places as far as I am concerned. Maybe try a slightly more garbled ground map? Yesterday I test-plopped a bunch of buildings downloaded over the last weeks, and I noticed something similar about the reflections on your Rialto Towers. I'm also wondering if you made the historical building at the base visible for the reflection. It might be just me, but I have a hard time recognising any part of the actual BAT reflected in the windows.

[Toothless Stitch 2,901]

T Wrecks is right, as almost always. I was given this some time ago

 

Maybe you can try this, give it another colour or whatever you want. 

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

Ok.. time for a proper update:

 

Simcoug, thanks for dropping by. Diagonal is a good suggestion, maybe I'll include it as a prop or something? Keeping me away from lotting is a very sensible suggestion I generally suck at it

 

Twrecks, completely agree. I might have been too quick to post this update but its good to get other views on the glass. I liked the dark glass from the previous post because it made the reflections really subtle, but gutterclub is quite right, the glass should be blue (and I did recently notice the same thing with Rialto too, the reflections became too obvious when I made the glass blue) I might try either lowering the glossiness and/or decreasing the reflection colour, and maybe increasing the blue in the diffuse map. I think Jason has said in the past not to use the ground map to compensate for the glass so will avoid that as much as possible.

 

Re the Building base not reflecting in the glass... interesting observation but it isn't anything I did (i.e. I didn't turn it off or anything). You can't really tell but it is reflecting in the left-most image, that darkish reflection in the first couple of rows of windows is the the base reflecting in the glass. Not sure why its not showing on any of the other angles, presumably its due to the viewing angle and the elevation of the tower compared with the base? (Actually you can just see the stone fence reflecting in the middle image as well).. I don't think there's anything I can do about this really?

 

Skyscraper, thanks for the image, I actually use that one occasionlly as well, I just couldn't get it to look right on this glass. I'll keep playing with it.

 

Other than that, the only other area I wasn't sure about is the grey bricks along the base, I think I preferred them better before. Now they look a bit obvious, and a bit tiled in some places. I will play some more with those as well.

[SimCoug 5,972]

Diagonal is a good suggestion, maybe I'll include it as a prop or something?

 

Yes, that would be awesome!  I wish more BATers would include a diagonal render with their uploads - sort of like the maxis/darknight courtesy.  With more diagonal BATs it really becomes possible to break up the SC4 grid.  

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Ah, ok. That's good to know. I guess it's like you said: The angle makes it so that not much is reflected, and I also suspect that since the ground map has a similar scale, the actual reflections of the base blend in with the reflections faked through the ground map. Thanks for clearing that up, I just wanted to ask in order to make sure.

[blunder 1,079]

Man, it's been awhile since i've checked the BAT board here, and it looks like i've been missing out on some great stuff!  I really love this BAT, red.  the glass color, the details on the lower structure, the roof junk; it's all great.  One question though: that white shed structure on the second highest roof-what is that?  Oversized hvac shed? Rooftop greenhouse?  When i look at the smaller image it almost looks too clean and stands out too much, but when i click and bring up the large image it looks fine.

[gutterclub 2,729]

RDQ, the refraction colour of the glass shouldn't make too much difference with how clear the ground pane is. Do you use the method to have alternate bump maps on each pane of glass to it doesn't flow. Might be worth playing with the bump to distort the reflections a little more..or chopping the ground pane around

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

Yeah.. might need Jason to jump in here.. I'm just going back to the mini-tut he posted on here when he started Blackburn Tower - How I've understood the glass properties working is that the lighter the Reflection colour the more pronounced the images in the reflections are (i.e. The more 'white' that gets reflected back) So, to the keep the reflections down, you make the reflection colour closer to black/ dark grey. At the same time though, that's where the glass gets its colour from, so to make it blue you have to lighten and saturate the colour.. and the reflections jump out again. I'm playing with glossiness at the moment.. that seems to be working, but ultimatley if I can't get it looking better I agree I will need to resort to chopping the ground plane image to compensate. (I can't increase the bump maps too much more the glass starts to bubble)

 

Blunder - thanks! To answer your question, I believe it is a large HVAC shed, it kind of has doors at either end where the track runs in and out of so I assume it houses all the mechanicals. I'm struggling with it a bit as well, the building itself is really new so I don't want to grunge everything up too much, but looks a bit pristine at the moment. I might try toning down the white a little bit.

 

LinsdayGaskell, thanks for the suggestion, I've added 385 Bourke Street to my list

 

Edit: Oh the other thing I was going to say, not sure if anyone can help, I was looking at Deadwoods version again this morning, his antennas look much better than mine, what I like about his is the bowing in the legs of the antennas, not sure how to describe it, but in contrast my legs are straight - does anyone know how I would make this, e.g. what modifer I would use? I'm not really sure what to even look up to start with.. thanks!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

For the glass, the reflection color just changes the color of the reflections, it doesn't really decrease or increase them.  If the reflection color is white, then the reflections are not changed (they will be a similar color and brightness as they really are.

 

So to figure out what the reflection color is, look at an image that shows both the glass, as well as whatever it is reflecting, and then compare how they change.  Looking at bing, it doesn't look like there's actually any colors changing, the colors are very clear.  And the reflections are pretty bright too, they only look a bit dimmer than what's being reflected.  So I would make your reflection color a medium grey, possibly even a light grey.  This should give you something that's about what it is in real life. 

 

Unfortunately this causes some problems.  Whatever is on your ground plane is going to be reflected very clearly, since that's how the building is in real life.  I think the main way to deal with this is to work on the ground plane in order to get it to look good.  You don't make it brighter or darker or a different color, you just make sure there's enough variety and the right size of detail and stuff in the image.

 

The other issue is the sky vs ground reflections issue.  The iconic shots of the building show it being a super vibrant blue, reflecting the sky.  And so now you're trying to make it look blue but it comes out looking unnaturally blue.  Leaving it not-blue will probably look more natural and it would be more accurate but it might not be what people expect the building to look.  Anyway, I'd try to get it looking accurate first, and then see what you can do about the color.

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

Hmmm... isn't that saying the same thing though? Whether the reflection colour itself has any hue in it will determine the hue reflected back, but the tonal value is determined by its brightness. The brighter a colour is (i.e. the closer the colour is to white), the more accurately it reflects the ground plane... to make the same image reflect more dimly you need to bring the reflection colour value closer to black. A dimly reflected image has less discernable clarity than a brightly reflected image because the contrast range is lower.

Anyway, I guess the point is I don't want blue reflections anyway lol, so here I tried something I wasn't sure if it would work... I used the diffuse maps as reflection maps... I also relented and added a ripple filter to my ground image and scaled it down a bit.. looks a bit busy but let me know what you think of this? Couple of other texture changes, I added an apricot overlay to the roof shed and restored the earlier version of the grey bricks around the base.

 

[Darknono35 3,137]

Yeah, in my opinion your reflection should be a little more clear, but it's already beautiful and realistic! And congratulation for your roofs, they're perfect and detailed

 

Keep it up, I can't wait an other update

[T Wrecks 10,209]

As far as reflections are concerned, I think you may have done the right thing, but perhaps too much of it. You went right from a few very large and distinguishable shapes to a very busy, almost noisy overall impression. I'm by no means an expert at such specific matter, but maybe the sweet spot lies somewhere inbetween the latest two updates.

 

Come to think of it, it amuses me at how high a level we are 'complaining'... five years ago, people would have killed for more BATs with such quality, and the one who'd dare so much as to raise a finger and clear his throat to make an objection would have been killed as well. 

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

No..you are absolutely right... and its not complaining,,, its just helping to get a better result for everyone... so thanks I'll keep playing with it... but please keep giving me your honest opinions I can't make it look good on my own!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Yeah, definitely don't add a ripple filter.  What you want are clear shapes (at a small scale) being reflected.  When you look at the reflection it should look like straight lines being distorted from the glass.  What you now have is a blotchy squiggly mess. 

 

And I forgot to say it before but your glossiness should definitely be 1.  I don't think the reflections should be made blurry.

 

Try doing a single zoom 4, with the ground plane visible, and with the glass's reflectivity/glossiness set to 1/1, and the reflection color set to a medium grey or a light grey, with no blue, and no ripple filters.  You might want to make the LODs a bit bigger so that more of the ground is visible in the render.

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

Here's my latest attempt.. the setting I forgot about in all this was the IOR, I had it set really high for mirrored glass and forgot to lower it and I was wondering why everything was looking like a radioactive christmas tree everytime I lightened the reflection colour.

 

I think I'm pretty happy with this now. Please let me know your thoughts

 

 

Jason, wasn't really sure what you meant by make a zoom 4 with ground plane visible, I assume you mean post it on here so you can see it? I'll assume thats what you mean, attached below. Re glossines, yeah I quickly discovered lowering the glossiness was not the way to go so I've left it at 1

 

[T Wrecks 10,209]

I'd take it.

[Darknono35 3,137]

Reflections are accomplished ! Beautiful work, don't change anything on your glass

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I think the way things set back on the herald building still isn't quite right. 

 

The area between the base and the main facade is set back too much.  You can actually see on part of the exhibition street facade, where the slope changes the facade, that a little cornicy thing on the top of the base is removed and you can see that the columns and the base are actually flush with each other.  http://goo.gl/maps/wiMKV  or rather the base of the column and the base of the building are flush, and the column is set back a tiny bit from the base of the column.  basically just enough for the edge to show.

 

And then the top floor is similar.  Yours is set back quite a bit from the rest of the facade.  Looking closely, that top part really is set back from the rest of the facade, but only about .1 or maybe .2  m

 

The other thing is the way the cornice, and the fence thing on top are put together.  Here's an image which shows it.

 

 

A better way to think of the area above the cornice, is to think of it as a parapet wall with a fence on top, which is what it really is.  The fence is decorative of course, but the part under the fence really is the parapet wall.  The cornice isn't the roof line, the cornice is just sort of stuck on to the wall.  The wall continues up beyond the cornice.  So there will actually be two levels of "roofs".  One roof is the roof on top of the cornice.  And then the main roof should be higher.

 

I couldn't find a good photo of the herald sun building to show but i have a picture of a building in detroit which shows the same thing.

 

 

In this case you can see that the cornice is very thin, and has a copper roof, while the herald sun's cornice is bigger and has just a normal roof.  But on both, the wall continues beyond the cornice, and then the wall ends and there's the fence part on top of that.

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

Jason, thanks for this, you're seeing something I'm not seeing though. The roof/cornice/parapet bit I get (and is easy to fix ) but I don't get the set backs.

 

I have tried setting up some model renders the same as the street view angles to see where there are differences, the only real difference I can see is on the South East corner (3rd & 4th images), but I think that's because the RL building truncates here, where my model returns all the way around, so thata makes it look more set back from that angle. Is there any way you can use these images to show me what you mean, I'm keen to get this right .

 

 

 

 

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

Oh... I think I get it.. If I remove the cornice and drag the pillar bases down they don't line up with the base? How did you spot that lol! I had to pull it apart. Should be relatively easy to fix though.. let me know if this isn't what you meant though.

 

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

Third post in a row... not many people commenting on the forums lately

 

Here's an updated model. The only point I didn't address is the top row of windows. I think that's an optical effect. Jason, you said they were set back too far and should only be set back a little bit, but in fact they aren't set back at all, the top row of windows was made from the same object as the lower sets of windows, they are all on the same vertical plane. I think setting them back a little bit will just make them look worse, so have not moved them. (Would be a nightmare anyway as they are all part of one object)

 

The only thing I can think of to do now is relook at the texture on those long glass structures (solar panels maybe?) on the roof they look a bit untextured. Let me know if anything else

 

[SimCoug 5,972]

I keep looking over those street view model renders and I am continually blown away by the amount of details. Beautiful work!

[simlink 1,098]

The sheer amount of detailing is amazing! The pillars, windows, even the lamps, it's simply just stunning. Fantastic work.

[Huston 5,798]

Lol, I don't think anyone was commenting on the counts that your BAT was probably too overwhelmingly awesome I don't think it's possible to critique the BAT. It's literally perfect in every way. Amazing work

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

woops.. didn't mean to fish for compliments... just last couple of weeks seems a bit dead in the threads.. its coming into summer on the other side of the world maybe everybody is out enjoying the sunshine

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

I think Jason is the only one with enough know-how to be able to critique this BAT.

Speaking of weather, is it cold by you? It's absolutely freezing in the hills today!

[Reddonquixote 4,338]

Lol... I can see the hills from where I'm sitting... the sky is black as black! Yeah... its brisk toaday in Southbank

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Here you go 

 

 

The red line basically shows what the depth of the facade should be.  You got the depth between the base and the main facade now, but now I think you'll be able to see how far the top floor is set back.  The entire green area should be moved forward until it's about flush with the facade below.  If you look really closely in the photos you can tell that it's not exactly flush, it's set back, but only about .1 m or at the very most .2 m.  And then inset is a little photoshopping that shows about what it would look like.

 

Then I would also say that the two subcornices (the one above the base, and the one right below the top floor) are a little bulky, and should be more subtle.

 

Then for the textures, the base should be a light grey, with a little bit of blue in it.  I have absolutely no idea what the rest of the facade is made out of in rl.  It honestly looks like someone went to a hardware store and bought some tan paint and painted it.  I had to look really close to even tell that there are individual blocks.  Something that might be helpful for this building is taking a screenshot of street view in google maps, and sample the colors of the materials from the screenshot and use that to get the hue and brightness of the materials.

 

And then I forgot to answer your question earlier about the antennae towers.  Grab the vertexes of the individual levels and use the scale tool on all of them at once, and manually give it a curve.  You can also try giving it one of the modifiers.  I don't remember which one, but there are so many of them, I think one of them would do what you want done.