Why does cartoonish equal bad?

[Flat Raver 59]

It's been a while since I've been here. During that time I've lost my password, so I had log in via Google.

Anyway, I've seen some people around here are sceptic towards the new SimCity game for not using semi-realistic graphics. My question is why so? Why is realism such an important aspect in this specific context? Is there some sort of "colour allergy" going on here?

Maybe you have good reasons to feel that way. Perhaps these cartoonish aesthetics give you bad vibes for reminding of SCS. It could otherwise be that you want a simulation rather than a game. Idon't know, you tell me.

Personally, I'm not that keen on realism in that regards. The muted colours and gritty textures would bore me to death, as it gives me the impression that I'm not supposed to have fun playing it. Also, I'm looking for a city creator rather than a city simulator, my experiences with SC4 were rather frustrating and hair-pulling. So maybe I should look elsewhere, like Minecraft.

[TekindusT 3,809]

You've said that in your last paragraph, you're looking for a city creator. Some of us are looking for a realistic city simulator, and are the ones who think that the first renders (remarking that they are not final game pictures) are very cartoonish.

All cities in the world have its gritty and not-so-gritty places, for the sake of realism, gritty places need to have gritty textures and dull colours, but this would be a city simulator approach that some of the users aren't willing to play. I can understand.

Maxis have a tremendous job in front of them, trying to mix a funny and creative game with a realistic city-simulator won't be an easy task. Let's see how it goes and our wallets will decide.

[meowza 230]

I've got a bunch of lame theories for your question...

edit: In the end, a game is still a game.

  Edited June 3, 2012 by meowza  

[The_City_Builder 299]

I honestly don't understand why people are expecting super-realism. There hasn't been any super-realism in past SimCity games; why expect it now? If you want a super-city-simulator, go make a city in CityEngine or something. Seriously, I don't understand.

[The Bluejay 40]

Things can look colourful and bright without being cartoonish. Sim City 4 was fairly brightly coloured, especially after all the excellent terrain, water and rock mods that have been created over the years, but it's still grounded in realism, which allows for a great degree of versatility on our part - TekindusT's famous gritty "Tenements and Rust" , Skimbo's "Dragon Islands" and Schulmanators comfortingly wacky "Schulmania" have all been able to use Sim City 4's versatility - with a little photoshopping - to create the tone they want.

From the screenshots I've seen so far, there's absolutely no versatility of tone in SC5, which is a shame. Hopefully, improvements to texturing will add a lot of detail which, in turn, will stop it looking so much like the setting for Fireman Sam.

I'd also add that the art style says a lot about the underlying creative philosophy of the game - wacky, silly games have a similar art style, games that try and be serious go for gritty and de-saturated. Spore, for instance, was initially shown off as a serious, deep game with an art style to match. By release day, the cartoonish graphics were accompianed by shallow gameplay.

  Edited June 3, 2012 by The Bluejay  

[Francis90b 748]

Maybe none of the past SC games had been super-realistic.But Sim city 4 had been quite a leap in this direction, at least that's what i think if i compare it to sc3000, 2000 etc., and a further big leap had happened because of custom content creators.

Since graphic standards are increasing, so are increasing players expectations.Some people don't care about graphics, others do.

As to why they care, i'd say that they'd probably like to have their "creature" (or virtual game city) look as real as possible...and would probably feel like this because, aside from the logic of the game, there's some personal involvement into it - there's no much difference between a SC4's major and a God.

And i'd bet that, as God, you'd probably want to have everything look like you want, and it doesn't matter wheter it's relevant to the game or not.

Games like SC4 have offered very much in terms of graphics - and so, many little "gods" become very ambitious playing with it.

I bet someone wouldn't be very demanding in graphics when playing things like minecraft (that doesn't mean he-she wouldn't try to push the game to the limit), but give him-her a game with a rich graphic like SC4, and things will change.

  Edited June 3, 2012 by Francis90b  

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Some points:

1. Asking this question and insinuating a "colour allergy", as you put it, is as justified as asking people like you how it can be that you would like to have cartoonish graphics and if you are suffering from some kind of "realism allergy".

2. We are looking at a sequel of SimCity, a city simulator. You state in your post that you actually didn't like the previous SimCity that much and that you're looking for a city creator rather than a simulation. The SC4 crowd is obviously fond of SC4, hence it's not surprising that they are looking for a game that will match the fun and complexity of SimCity4 together with enough realism so a city will indeed look like a city and not just like a colourful bunch of 3D structures made of plastics.

3. "a simulation rather than a game"? No. A simulation game would be fine, just the kind of game SimCity has always been. The fun was never in the fact that all buildings were bright and colourful, but in the fact that you had to plan and run your city well in order to get the nicer-looking buildings, and that there were always some less beautiful corners as well.

I imagine that a flight simulator crowd - even if the flight simulator was heavily simplified in terms of controls and not 100% photo-realistic in terms of graphics - still would prefer e.g. a MiG-29 to look more or less like a MiG-29 in real life and not like a plastic carrot with wings.

4. Technical compromises that affected realism so far have been due to systen limitations. The graphics weren't better because it wasn't possible and/or feasible concerning the average PC specs of the respective time. Simulations weren't more precise and/or complex for the same reason.

Conceptual compromises were made to balance realism and fun: As long as fun wasn't affected too negatively, concepts were simplified. For example, highrises actually grow ridiculously early and easily compared to real-world cities. However, of course it is more rewarding for less "hardcore" players if they don't need populate half a reagion before they even have a chance of getting a skyscraper. Industrial buildings were narrower and taller to prevent industry from taking up too much space on a map of limited size - the size limit being once again due to technical limitations, btw.

So super-realism has never been part of the game, but at least a certain amount of realism.

---

Those SC5 screenshots show some aspects of the overall appearance that are clearly not due to technical limitations, but due to a conscious design choice. If you can texture a brick factory in bright red with shiny colourful spots, then there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to texture that same factory with a texture that actually looks like brick, and perhaps with some realistic details in place of the colourful spots.

If you can make buildings grow in a particular fashion, then there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to make buildings grow in a way that mimicks a halfways realistic city look.

I cannot speak for others, but in a world of casual games for those 20 minutes at the airport, I'd like to see a unique series like the SimCity games stick to that mixture of "hey, this is fun" and "oh boy, it looks almost like the real thing!" that has become its hallmark over the years.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Well, we can always mod the heck out of this new game to "compromise" the cartoonish look. Problem solved, I'd say...

[paulvmontfort 617]

Well, we can always mod the heck out of this new game to "compromise" the cartoonish look. Problem solved, I'd say...

That's what I was thinking as well

[meowza 230]

A city simulator wasn't used on this study, but the findings still interest me...

The effects of video game realism on attention, retention and aggressive outcomes

This study used a between subjects, post-test only design to test the effects of video gamerealism (Doom 1 vs. Doom 3) and a control condition on attention, retention and aggressive outcomes. Overall, those who played Doom 3 perceived it as significantly more realistic than those who played Doom 1, thus providing validity for the manipulation. Next, those who played Doom 3 were significantly more attentive and experienced more presence than those who played Doom 1. Furthermore, playing either Doom game resulted in more aggression than playing no game and physically aggressive intentions were higher among those who played Doom 3 as compared to those who played Doom 1. Lastly, we tested for any possible interaction between realism and the attention and retention subfunctions on production and we found that, compared to the other players, those who experienced greater identification among those playing Doom 3 had higher verbal aggression. For physical aggression, those who played Doom 3 and experienced more attention and greater identification had higher aggression scores than those in the other conditions.

http://www.sciencedi...747563210002803

SC4 has definitely changed over the years, thanks to the mods. And with it, so did the ST community.

  Edited June 3, 2012 by meowza  

[dabadon5 295]

The main reason I do not like the "Cartoony" feel is because it feels like the game is going to have a "cartoony" feel. I understand its a video game, all meant for fun, but its not impressing me. When i see these screens of the game i can imagine Sponge Bob popping out somewhere.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

1. The proportions on the building models look realistic.

2. The textures on the buildings look flat.

3. I believe that it must be too early in the game to use mapping for textures since there seems to be none.

4. I think that Glass Box should be able to add a "pollution map" onto textures of buildings inpolluted areas, much like SimCity 4 had abandonment.

5. SimCity Societies was a cartoony City Builder, Cities XL is a photorealistic City Builder. SimCity 4 was a statistical City Simulator, Glass Box is a rich simulation engine.

[Sandis_van_Great 346]

Oh for the love of god. Why is everyone so conflicted about each otthers wishes? One like realistic ne likes cartoonish child games.

I ahvent heard anyone really explaining why is the cartoonish grapfics soo much betther? And thoes who are saying that realistic grapfics are gona lag and stuff! , you are going over the line. Nobody is asking for ultra super realism so stop acting.

Like sc4 it have pritty ealistic grapfics,(keep in mind that back than it wosnt such as good pc as they are today) Offcors it have a taste of some cartoonish but its minimal so you can enjoy the realism of real citys rather than rainbow covered flinston citys with dinos.

Why dosnt FSX or Train simulator look like some kids games? Why isnt any bus simulators or any otther kinds of games looking like some kids games?

Societys was a cartoonish game as this one (from what it seems) and look where it is now. Offcors there will be screamers saying omg but modding will save sc5, beans why? societys hade moding to and? did it save it?

Cities xl was really nice grapfics but there was just awfull gameplay.

So can anyone explain me why goofie looking cartoonish game is soo much betther than well balanced game?

Well, we can always mod the heck out of this new game to "compromise" the cartoonish look. Problem solved, I'd say...

why didnt anyone mod the beans out of cities xl or societys?

  Edited June 4, 2012 by Blue Lightning  
Cleaned some language up.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Well, we can always mod the heck out of this new game to "compromise" the cartoonish look. Problem solved, I'd say...

why didnt anyone mod the hell out of cities xl or societys?

Because these games where hard to mod, though CitiesXL modding is starting to rise. SimCity 2013 is created with this entire modding community in mind, so I think the odds will be quite big that we can mod this game just fine...

[Ocram's Razr 964]

1. This is an early alpha development screen shot that has no texture mapping. I assume the look they are going for would more resemble the cinematic trailer, which looks more realistic but slightly cartoony.

2. SimCity Societies had NO SIMULATION WHATSOEVER and also had buildings with cartoony proportions and shapes. Modding it would only fix the textures and add a tiny simulation. I have personally modded that game and grew bored.

3. Cities XL has realistic graphics but very little simulation. People at XL Nation have indeed modded the heck out of it and added crime, health, shopping, and leisure simulation as well as a complex network expansion mod.

[JayStimson 212]

For me, the big question is:

How customizable will the new version be ?

Will there be an equivalent set of tools to what we have in SC4 ?

BAT, LE, PIM ? Can we get the data structures and related info to be able to mod the game ?

To address the "cartoon" issue ....

The real beauty in SC4 is in the details ... thanks to all the customization work (BATs, mods, textures) that's been created.

Without it, I would have put the game away a long time ago.

[Flat Raver 59]

Ah, thanks for clarifying what it's all about. It's about me having a short attention span.

Sigh.... Back to Portal 2's community test chambers.

[Supertask 29]

As I've pointed out elsewhere, what people are missing is that even if it is technically possible to get closer to realism, until we're at the point where 3D city builders actually look photo realistic (we're not), it is not a good idea to try to get as close to realism as possible, what you'll end up with is something which looks sort of realistic but quite strange (with clear flaws visible etc) i.e. you'll have fallen into uncanny valley. The advantage of creating a more stylized (calling the screenshots "cartoony" seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me) appearance is that it can be judged on its own terms, rather than against images of cities in the real world.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

The Uncanny Valley does NOT apply to buildings. Cities XL used cartoony people to cause a juxtaposition that avoids the uncanny valley, for many gamers, including me.

[Supertask 29]

Not traditionally yes, but I think it still applies to some extent. The original definition of "uncanny" most certainly did apply beyond just people, to things which look somewhat familiar and yet strange. My main point is that if you try to get close to realism, any shortcomings (and there would be shortcomings) would be readily apparent.

[Azurespecter 506]

The SimCity games have always tried to get realistic graphics, as much as possible considering technical capacities. At least this is true in my mind. Although SimCity societies was cartoony, I really think it's time to stop making comparison's to that game.

No, I think the real worry here is not that SimCity will be cartoony looking, but rather that the textures will be picture-perfect, or flawless... which is an unrealistic concept. Buildings don't always look pristine or perfect. That shiny red fire station will look very unrealistic in many situations.

But like Mrtnrln said, this should be easily fixable if necessary.

[Sandis_van_Great 346]

and once again, becouse sombody says that it would be nice with more realistic dosnt meen it must be ultra photo realistic. You have to think outside the box.

Just a thought, why there is no cartoonish mods for sc4? maybe there is some but than its really rarly.

[Mark Waybill 242]

I see this is a heated discussion, so I am going to try and be rational and lucid in giving my opinion. I believe that, in past versions of the game, Maxis has displayed the ability (putting aside SCS) to compromise well between realism and gameplay (I have spent more boring moments of my existence with R and G and Einsteinian equations...), and thus to offer a game and simulation, with a good balance of both.

With increasing technical ability for the average end users machine, more realism is theoretically possible. I forget the name of the game in question but quite recently someone uploaded a video of a real time simulator with graphics that were pretty much photorealistic, but the specs for such a game were very high. However, the ability, if not here and now, will certainly become a reality in near future.

Thus the question arises, to what extent should we pursue realistic mirroring of our world? First I will say that

1. Our world is flawed no matter what perspective you are viewing it from. Very few people will argue our world is perfect these days.

2. Our world is unified, and in SC we will have separate 'worlds' whether this be regional, or city, or planet. Thus there will be different types of 'world'.

3. Cartoony graphics, as in stylised or idealised graphics, lack the flaws of our world but also lack some of the good features.

The balance has been upheld well until now. I trust that Maxis know what they are doing. If it is moddable as they say then if the style is not to our liking we can fix that. I daresay official support for modding projects will be greater than ever before. They already have tilesets, so this demonstrates the right direction there is being followed.

If we can change the tileset and eventually add our own modded tilesets, the issue of realism shall cease to exist. The default graphics shall most likely strike a good balance. I personally am not averse to 'cartoony' graphics, as long as they make sense, are in proportion to one another in a fairly correct fashion, and allow for some realistic feature that haven't been included in previous versions, such as smooth railway curves and inclines. I think as long as the 'cartoony' aspect is limited to tileset and graphics, and as long as actual distances and proportions, resource levels etc are realistic more or less, there shouldn't be an issue.

I will add that personally I dislike the present screenshots. I think the textures may not be final, however. Personally I'd like to see Simcity 4 in full 3D to give some indication of my graphical leaning. As to the Sims, I imagine a less exxagerated CX style would be alright, but I'd rather a style similar to The Sims, at least as regards their aesthetic qualities. I don't want to build a city and then find it inhabited by grossly overdone stereotypes.

[Miyasako 28]

I don't want super real or cartoonist I would them to keep it the same way as simcity 4, it had realistic but not to real graphics

[Cob92 360]

It doesn't look that cartoony. Bright and colorful, yes, but the proportions are right. SimCity was never intended to have 100% realistic graphics. SC4 was not based on "gritty" realism; that was the work of custom content creators who wanted their game to look that way.

[lazy tiger 22]

I will put it simply: I am not looking for a super simulated, real world game. I mean, we don't need to see cars doing burnouts on the road, or every speck of litter that comes out (ultra realism??). Why not just use what has worked for 10 years with SC4? I want it to look dull, gritty, sometimes, especially the industrial sector. Subdevelopments and new housing should look new, slightly cartoony, but not every lot will look like that.

from the screenshots, its just plain ugly. The spacing is off. I am guessing we won't have row houses in the new game, idk. It looks like Springfield from the Simpsons show. It looks god-awful like the Sims franchise...the houses in that.

A good (but old) example is to look at a sim like Roller Coaster Tycoon 2...and Thrillville. (pc and game consoles..) its not difficult to pick out the "cartoony" game of the two, you only need one screenshot to tell difference. I can expect cartoony from my playstation, the memory and graphic capability is limited, and sacrificed for the sake of having deeper worlds, or levels. But not from a PC game like Sim City. I got the memory (i hope so when it debuts...) to render the graphics, and play a deep game.

Nobody is asking to see every dead bug on the windshields here, ....but something a little better than you could do in MS Paint would be nice.

[nukeu123 307]

It's been a while since I've been here. During that time I've lost my password, so I had log in via Google.

Anyway, I've seen some people around here are sceptic towards the new SimCity game for not using semi-realistic graphics. My question is why so? Why is realism such an important aspect in this specific context? Is there some sort of "colour allergy" going on here?

Maybe you have good reasons to feel that way. Perhaps these cartoonish aesthetics give you bad vibes for reminding of SCS. It could otherwise be that you want a simulation rather than a game. Idon't know, you tell me.

Personally, I'm not that keen on realism in that regards. The muted colours and gritty textures would bore me to death, as it gives me the impression that I'm not supposed to have fun playing it. Also, I'm looking for a city creator rather than a city simulator, my experiences with SC4 were rather frustrating and hair-pulling. So maybe I should look elsewhere, like Minecraft.

i am aginst it because... idk entirely why i hate cartoonish gfx. its like a really discusting bad taste in your mouth but more rather for my eyes. i love realism ok, i love complex gfx. i cant really explain why but maybe it could be because of maturity level, or maybe i love realistic simulators(i do!), sc3k was cartoony but i love it not only cause of game play but at the time i was REALLY young, or it could be that i do infact have high expectancy for gfx since we have high technoligy this era today vs 1999... though today i hope for the best in gameplay for i have forsaken gfx

hopes (in other words i just want a new sc with original maxis formula) i think its because SimCity isnt just a pc/mac game its is a hobby that you monopolize the power to create a metropolis and be able to creat life of a popular culture. if it were a game i wouldnt care as much but its a hobby

one more thing: i dont thing sc2k13 isnt that sevre cartoony wise i have seen much worse and i think i could get over it

  Edited June 4, 2012 by nukeu123  

[~Dee~ 215]

I like the screenshots, I don't find them cartoony. I also would love to see some of the concept art we have seen around here to be included, some of them are just gorgeous.

If someone what's more realistic with peeling paint and graffiti on buildings someone can always mod it later.

[Wiimeiser 452]

Graphics overhaul mods are possible, Oldblivion, for example

Bluejay, your post broke my mind. Now I can't stop thinking of that. To put it in Psychonauts terms, naming or displaying a character from a childrens show in my childhood makes them god of my mind. I cannot stop thinking of them (in this case the FS theme) and I have to strain like mad just to think of anything else.

[Mark Waybill 242]

I liked the concept art. I imagine the textures (graffiti, peeling paint as mentioned above) will improve over time. I think with this announcement they are focusing on gameplay mostly