Discussion about Always-On Connection to Origin

[logintime 93]

I heartily disagree with your post enough that I'm going to write a lengthy rebuttal.

You know, I find that most people who whine about DRM are the same people who often counterfeit software.

So the huge outcry when Sony tried to force DRM on its music discs was mostly from counterfeiters? The backlash against Spore was mostly counterfeiters? Dude, legal customers were every bit as irate over DRM issues.

In the old days, in order to get an album, movie, or software, we had to get authentic media, be it a record, tape, CD, or DVD, from a licensed distributor, and having that authentic object basically demonstrated that we were licensed to use that product, and the license would pretty much last the life of that authentic product - if your record or DVD got damaged, you had to go out and buy another one.

DVDs weren't the old days, but I get your point.

Now that the world has gone digital, where anything can be copied and distributed pretty much effortlessly by anyone, the concept of authentic media - as well as that license to keep using things for the life of that authentic media - no longer exists.

This isn't new: people could make mixtapes forever (and there was a time when cassette tapes were every bit as bit as CDs are now), and CD copiers and rewriters have been installed in virtually every computer for the last decade. Mind you, these are legal ways of copying and distributing something you've purchased. The idea that you buy a product and can only use it for yourself does not exist in the entertainment marketplace.

Instead, software has to be checked, at least periodically, for 1) being licensed and 2) verifying the system used to check for licensing hasn't been defeated, which itself is digital and subject to tampering as so. DRM is just one way, to leave a receipt for a piece of software for a specific computer that has been verified so that it doesn't have to be actively checked as often.

It is also a way to install bloatware onto peoples' computers, and to limit the amount of computers a legally purchased product can be placed onto-essentially negating the very idea that you can own and do what you like with what you have bought.

Let's face it - gamers are the most notorious group of software users for counterfeiting software.

Only insofar as we play games a lot. Even then, that statement is still wrong- the most notorious counterfeiting is by store owners and entrepreneurs in poorer countries. You don't see it much in the US, but head over to China or Indonesia sometime and go to a local shopping center. You'll see the counterfeit products outnumbering the legally produced ones by an insane ratio. Counterfeiting in the US and among gamers is nothing compared to there.

I'm not accusing anyone here specifically, but the stats clearly show that you're out there.

No, you're not, but you are implicitly condemning gamers as a group, which encompasses a lot of people on here.

Maybe that's why gamers are so loudly opposed to DRM.

Or maybe people don't like being controlled or limited in what they can do with something they've legally bought.

And, yeah, you're free to not buy the game if that's not cool with you, but let's also not forget that, at the end of the day, a company like EA is far more likely to just not bother with future projects if DRM is rejected than distribute something that can easily be copied and redistributed with basic operating system commands.

EA's business model is virtually all video games. They will always need to bother with future products.

As for mods, let's not forget that the community content for SimCity 4 is almost a decade in the making, none of which was available at its launch either. As with any software (ask any of your programmer friends), mod-ability is never a high-priority launch feature, and is almost always retroactively introduced, as it was with SimCity 4.

You are missing the point though, as there's a difference between having modding abilities added or patched in at a later date, versus adopting a DRM model which severely limits the types of mods people can create or use. Half of the things we see in Cityjournals here likely could not be created under an Always Online system. If the DRM is going to cripple an aspect of what has kept Simcity 4 alive for so long, that's a serious problem.

As for me, I'm all in. This looks like an excellent game, and I can't wait to get my hands on it. It is kind of sad, however, that with DRM concerns, the lifespan of the game is now determined by EA, namely how long they run their authentication service for, rather than by how well I take care of my disc, but that's just a side effect of this digital internet world that we've created and something we're all going to have to learn to live with, because it ain't going away anytime soon.

So you're simply going to accept this level of control, even though you are aware that it could cause your legally purchased game to no longer be usable in ten years if it doesn't take off and they shut down their servers? Okay.... but you shouldn't be surprised if others seriously disagree.

  Edited June 6, 2012 by logintime  

[meowza 230]

Quite assuring, but I'm still worried...

...

They will, however, provide some solace to those of us who fear that strict online-only requirements will cause our games to blink out if we're trying to play while connected to an Internet signal then tends to drop once in a while. The developers say they are programming this new Sim Cityto tolerate some undefined amount of "minutes" of offline play in the case of dropped connections-presumably an amount of minutes closer in length to a commercial break than a TV show, though they didn't want to say.

But what of the debacle of the Diablo III launch and the fury of players who couldn't play a game they wanted to play solo because Blizzard had trouble keeping its servers up and error-free?

"We've got experience from Spore and Darkspore," Katserelis said, citing other recent Maxis games. "EA is an on online company. We're definitely watching what's going on at Blizzard, and we're putting in backstops and checks to try to prevent those kind of things from happening."

http://kotaku.com/5915377/like-diablo-iii-sim-city-will-require-an-online-connection

[Linoa06 1,374]

Then you should have made it clear, Bassmaster, you were speaking on EA's behalf. Because they indeed have few care about those few poor people so long they can make some more money.

And they have ruined many a game before Simcity, too, in the recent history of gaming..

[DocRorlach 25]

Yes, there are now billions of IP addresses out there, but that does not mean that - as someone once posted in this forum - "most gamers are online all the time anyway.." (or words to that effect). DRM is fine, but Origin or any idea of a single online system is simply rubbish from the start. If EA was so certain of their new Maxis baby they could just as easily make it an option: see what kind of fan base you get, give the buyer a choice. I might want play online one day, offline another. I might get downtime from my ISP, good as it is, and in the meantime the region I am develops and suddenly I am behind the curve due to a technical glitch.

Online gaming works, of course it does, but it is not suited to every genre or game out there. Heck, "online" SC4 regions have existed - 3RR comes to mind - but it was a labour of enthusiasm not an enforced game play system. And although the famous "we're not idiots" quote re modding, online gaming adds an enourmously complex dimension to modding (forget batting for the first year or two). How are you going to test your creation? Online? Real time?

Let EA/Maxis run its odd course, perchance they will actually learn something this time around, then let's look at it again in a 2014 or 2015..

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Well, I think that having pirated copies not work online to be ideal. If pirated copies work online (like in Spore), then we have a problem. Hopefully Origin works good enough that only legitimate copies can go online (and that all legitimate copies work). I don't know how Origin will turn out but I really hope for the best. I plan on buying a legitimate copy at a discount and the ORIGINE3 code was major bunko (I did not even attempt to Preorder yet).

[Urban Cartographer 601]

I am a member of Simtropolis since 2007 who had a very long hiatus.

Now that SimCity 5 is announced, I want to play the game badly. The game looks like a significant improvement over SimCity 4. However, the fact that it requires a constant online connection made me reconsider my options. With SimCity 4, I can play offline all I want. I also prefer to create my dream city my way, without having to fix someone else's problems or be faced with resource limitations that are beyond my control.

[DamonT 5]

This very possibly could be a deal breaker for me. I like the concept of the online game play, but not the "required connection" part. As others have said what if my ISP is down? What if I wanted to play on my laptop while riding Amtrak? and the scariest of all: What if the EA/Origin Servers are down from DDOS, or a system outage? What if EA/Origin decide to shut down the servers, or even force you to buy a DLC or the next Gen simcity to have server access?

Unless I can OWN the game I legally purchase, I highly doubt I will buy it.

[The_City_Builder 299]

I feel so unique since I actually like the online of SimCity...

[jacksunny 741]

DamonT: If the servers or your internet go down, you can continue to play.

It isn't the online that I don't like, it's this:

2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.

You agree that EA may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services. EA may also use this information combined with personal information for marketing purposes and to improve our products and services. We may also share that data with our third party service providers in a form that does not personally identify you. IF YOU DO NOT WANT EA TO COLLECT, USE, STORE, TRANSMIT OR DISPLAY THE DATA DESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, PLEASE DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE APPLICATION. This and all other data provided to EA and/or collected by EA in connection with your installation and use of this Application is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at www.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control.

from Origin's EULA.

[Urban Cartographer 601]

DamonT: If the servers or your internet go down, you can continue to play.

It isn't the online that I don't like, it's this:

2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.

You agree that EA may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services. EA may also use this information combined with personal information for marketing purposes and to improve our products and services. We may also share that data with our third party service providers in a form that does not personally identify you. IF YOU DO NOT WANT EA TO COLLECT, USE, STORE, TRANSMIT OR DISPLAY THE DATA DESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, PLEASE DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE APPLICATION. This and all other data provided to EA and/or collected by EA in connection with your installation and use of this Application is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at www.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control.

from Origin's EULA.

That is much scarier than the fear that SimCity 5 must be played online.

[jdenm8 362]

DamonT: If the servers or your internet go down, you can continue to play.

If the servers go down or your connection drops out, you can play for a limited time, probably no more than ten minutes. This is almost a complete retraction of what they have said previously.

I completely agree with you about Origin's EULA, it's just bile.

[Haljackey 17,385]

Good article from Kotaku regarding online-only gameplay:

http://kotaku.com/5915377/like-diablo-iii-sim-city-will-require-an-online-connection

[VanZan 2]

I don't think that they keep the servers online forever. What if I feel the need to play the game again in 5 years (like i've done numeroes times with SC4)? More importantly, I don't want to play the game multiplayer. I mean i want to slowly develope my own city without impact of some jerks who built a polluted criminal city on its edge

[jacksunny 741]

^The solution to that is simple: Don't play on multiplayer. Just set your game to private.

[§haÅ--Ñ€ §hÅŽo 370]

^The solution to that is simple: Don't play on multiplayer. Just set your game to private.

He means what if the EA servers go down in the first part.

[meowza 230]

How are Spore and Darkspore servers holding up? Any issues with them?

If ever SimCity's servers do close down, I'm really hoping Maxis does something about it. If not as a studio under EA, then atleast as private developers who genuinely love the franchise and its fanbase.

  Edited June 7, 2012 by meowza  

[NorthStars 66]

I see lots of folks here who say how much they can't stand DRM, Steam, etc. I'm with you totally... but I hope you're all putting your money where your mouth is and refusing to purchase a game that forces you to use Steam or maintain an online connection. I used to be a serious gamer, and have now stopped gaming totally. No, I'm not growing up... I desperately want to play all the time... but I'm making a stand. Haven't purchased a new game in four years. I used to buy 10-15 games a year, legally, full purchase price, no complaints. But then Steam decided to screw up my life, and I'm not paying a dime to anyone who makes me deal with a third-party company that pollutes my computer. So I just stopped gaming completely (apart from using old games like SC4 that don't have the same requirements). If everyone else who apparently hates DRM restrictions just as much as I do would also make the same stand, the game companies would be forced to change how they approach DRM.

Constant online connection = No purchase

(but I pray they come to their senses on this one, because I am DYING to play this game!!!)

[cashmoney 5]

DamonT: If the servers or your internet go down, you can continue to play.

It isn't the online that I don't like, it's this:

2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.

You agree that EA may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services. EA may also use this information combined with personal information for marketing purposes and to improve our products and services. We may also share that data with our third party service providers in a form that does not personally identify you. IF YOU DO NOT WANT EA TO COLLECT, USE, STORE, TRANSMIT OR DISPLAY THE DATA DESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, PLEASE DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE APPLICATION. This and all other data provided to EA and/or collected by EA in connection with your installation and use of this Application is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at www.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control.

from Origin's EULA.

duuuuude this is bad stuff. ea is crazy to think that this will make people buy games. it will only make us run away from them.

[Urban Cartographer 601]

I see lots of folks here who say how much they can't stand DRM, Steam, etc. I'm with you totally... but I hope you're all putting your money where your mouth is and refusing to purchase a game that forces you to use Steam or maintain an online connection. I used to be a serious gamer, and have now stopped gaming totally. No, I'm not growing up... I desperately want to play all the time... but I'm making a stand. Haven't purchased a new game in four years. I used to buy 10-15 games a year, legally, full purchase price, no complaints. But then Steam decided to screw up my life, and I'm not paying a dime to anyone who makes me deal with a third-party company that pollutes my computer. So I just stopped gaming completely (apart from using old games like SC4 that don't have the same requirements). If everyone else who apparently hates DRM restrictions just as much as I do would also make the same stand, the game companies would be forced to change how they approach DRM.

Constant online connection = No purchase

(but I pray they come to their senses on this one, because I am DYING to play this game!)

Same. It is sad to see that many PC games nowadays require Steam, Origin, Battle.net, MMO servers, or similar, as well as Internet connection at all times. I know that it is done to curb piracy and allow gamers to download their "copy" through a cloud. However, they are known to track one's computer information (MMO servers probably the least), can slow down the computer, and often advertise games in that some players have no interest. Sometimes, the servers shut down, which means that one cannot play at all! Sometimes, the content delivery software can get hacked, just like with Steam almost a year ago. As a result, I am becoming more skeptical of PC gaming and play old games (or open-source games) instead.

  Edited June 8, 2012 by Urban Cartographer  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Settlers Online is being advertised through Anno 2070's launcher so yeah...

[Mark Waybill 242]

I don't like Steam, Origin etc but I doubt anything will change unless we all boycot these programs, and that is highly unlikely.

[Ded 30]

If I wanted gaming to be a social experience - I'd make it a social experience. At this point, I consider it highly unlikely I'll buy this game.

Also, I find it frustrating (and arrogant) that a game studio feels they have the right to tell me (as a customer) how to use their product, and to define the experience that I get from it. If I want to take a break from the internet, but continue to play my games - I should have the right to do so, given I've paid for the use of the product in question.

[Daytripper 41]

I don't like Steam, Origin etc but I doubt anything will change unless we all boycot these programs, and that is highly unlikely.

We don't all have to boycott these programs. It would be enough to get EA's attention if a game "underperforms".

Some potential buyers may not know about the issues regarding Origin, the always-online requirement etc. and may think twice about buying Simcity if they did. Opponents to EA's stance can raise awareness on forums such as these, in the hope that newcomers might want to learn something of the game before its release.

[Silent.Night 0]

Monthly internet for checking emails, facebook, and rarely anything more bandwidth intensive, costs me over fifty dollars.

How many GB do you get for your $50.00?

In New Zealand, for $50.00, we get 100 GB of broadband data per month.   Last month we used about 75 GB... and that is lots of Youtube, Minecraft, Xbox online gaming...

I pay 50 dollars for 3 GB. That expires after a month. I don't usually have to worry about what to do with excess bandwidth...

I don't know what telcos they have in NZ, or whether they have NBN style infrastructure there, but it sounds like you kiwis are getting a pretty good deal. NBN might be coming to my area soon, but by soon I mean within maybe five-ten years? I have paid my 99 dollars for the pre order copy, I expect to be able to play the thing once its launched...

Mind you, that is more of a gripe against Telstra than Origin or EA so hopefully that wasn't too off topic.

It sounds like you use mobile broadband rather than an adsl connection. Most of the population has access to adsl2 connections, and these are typically better than the NZ deal above. For example, I pay $40 for 150gb, and haven't paid more than $40-$50 for years. That price has bought enough gb to never max out my usage, and I typically watch tv through the net (usually 2-3 hours a day). Not necessarily HD though.

[Mark Waybill 242]

Where I live doesn't have a landline connection

[Shark7 118]

I see lots of folks here who say how much they can't stand DRM, Steam, etc. I'm with you totally... but I hope you're all putting your money where your mouth is and refusing to purchase a game that forces you to use Steam or maintain an online connection. I used to be a serious gamer, and have now stopped gaming totally. No, I'm not growing up... I desperately want to play all the time... but I'm making a stand. Haven't purchased a new game in four years. I used to buy 10-15 games a year, legally, full purchase price, no complaints. But then Steam decided to screw up my life, and I'm not paying a dime to anyone who makes me deal with a third-party company that pollutes my computer. So I just stopped gaming completely (apart from using old games like SC4 that don't have the same requirements). If everyone else who apparently hates DRM restrictions just as much as I do would also make the same stand, the game companies would be forced to change how they approach DRM.

Constant online connection = No purchase

(but I pray they come to their senses on this one, because I am DYING to play this game!!!)

I don't buy games through Steam, Origin or their ilk. As I've said before, its not an online activation I am opposed to, but rather their demand that I install spyware on my computer because they assume that everyone is guilty. This kind of thing is offensive to honest people.

Most of the games I buy now are either for consoles, or from independent developers that do not have the draconian DRM measures in place.

Once more...a one time online activation and/or requiring a serial number...no problem. Spyware to snoop through my files...completely unacceptable.

  Edited June 8, 2012 by Shark7  

[jdenm8 362]

Steam is probably the best of the bunch out there and I've disproven the Spyware argument pertaining to Steam before. My PC sends out more Shared Key encryption validation replies than Steam sends actual data in an hour. Also, the Snooping through files can be turned off in Steam, the Hardware and Software survey is purely Opt-In and It's solely to measure the adoption rates of hardware and certain programs. Origin's on the other hand is to sell you "Similar titles" and make sure you've never pirated anything of EA's ever.

Also, Steam doesn't enforce always-online (except in those few instances where a publisher has insisted on implementing their own DRM/Platform in parallel, Capcom (GFWL), Take-Two (GFWL), EA (SecuROM generally) and Ubisoft (UPlay) are the only ones I've seen that do this.) and does have an offline mode which does work on the train and does work when you start it properly.

  Edited June 10, 2012 by jdenm8  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

UPlay is not too bad because I have played offline and Anno 2070 can play without Administrator privilege, unlike I hear some games do.

[jdenm8 362]

Problem with UPlay is that it's inconsistent. Assassin's Creed II still has pretty shonky DRM (A similar type will be implemented in SC2013, instead of kicking you immediately, it'll give you ten minutes or so (Maxis hasn't stated how long you'll have) to reconnect before kicking you), although they did improve it.

[Shark7 118]

Steam is probably the best of the bunch out there and I've disproven the Spyware argument pertaining to Steam before. My PC sends out more Shared Key encryption validation replies than Steam sends actual data in an hour. Also, the Snooping through files can be turned off in Steam, the Hardware and Software survey is purely Opt-In and It's solely to measure the adoption rates of hardware and certain programs. Origin's on the other hand is to sell you "Similar titles" and make sure you've never pirated anything of EA's ever.

Also, Steam doesn't enforce always-online (except in those few instances where a publisher has insisted on implementing their own DRM/Platform in parallel, Capcom (GFWL), Take-Two (GFWL), EA (SecuROM generally) and Ubisoft (UPlay) are the only ones I've seen that do this.) and does have an offline mode which does work on the train and does work when you start it properly.

I'm from the days of the 5 1/4" floppy drive...and even back then there were some creative DRM measures that didn't seem to oppressive. Many games of that era required you to find a word on page X of the manual to start the game. Not as sophisticated for sure, and easily circumvented with a Xerox, but not so blatantly intrusive either.

All I'm saying is there has to be a better way. I'm starting to think that going all digital is actually a step backward...it may be time to go back to the days of having to own a physical CD and have it in the drive for the game to work. It sure seems better than having to install software on your computer with no idea of what it is doing in the background, or having to 'sign' a EULA like that one from Origin...that thing is scary.