Discussion about Always-On Connection to Origin

[Urban Cartographer 601]

I really fear that with always online, sometimes, EA can change their terms of service without any prior notice, as well as shutting down the servers for regular maintenance (sometimes extended maintenance as well, and if SimCity ceases to be played much concurrently, they have a high chance of permanently shutting down the servers.

 

Many people do not have easy access to fast and reliable Internet service even, especially with those who live in rural areas.

[Hoipus 292]

Apparently some folks from Simtropolis will be at Maxis tomorrow. It'd be nice if they ask aggressively (not rudely) about the possibility of an offline mode for longevity's sake and it'd be nicer if they don't give a non-answer.

[Jim14409 448]

Apparently some folks from Simtropolis will be at Maxis tomorrow. It'd be nice if they ask aggressively (not rudely) about the possibility of an offline mode for longevity's sake and it'd be nicer if they don't give a non-answer.

It just occured to me...

If the game is on the servers, and I assume most or part of it is, then even if cities were savable to the players machine, WHAT would they be played on? 

 

I admit that I don't fully know or understand how such systems are set-up when a game is played from the servers. Seems some part would be on the servers and a minor part on the download or physical media the player has. Anyway, wouldn't the cities be unplayable without the WHOLE game?

Maybe someone can shed some light...

[Hoipus 292]

Apparently some folks from Simtropolis will be at Maxis tomorrow. It'd be nice if they ask aggressively (not rudely) about the possibility of an offline mode for longevity's sake and it'd be nicer if they don't give a non-answer.

It just occured to me...

If the game is on the servers, and I assume most or part of it is, then even if cities were savable to the players machine, WHAT would they be played on? 

 

I admit that I don't fully know or understand how such systems are set-up when a game is played from the servers. Seems some part would be on the servers and a minor part on the download or physical media the player has. Anyway, wouldn't the cities be unplayable without the WHOLE game?

Maybe someone can shed some light...

Like I said earlier in this thread, during the beta,  the game seemed playable without being connected. I did this experiment in Beta 2 where I claimed 2 areas, built 2 simple cities and set up some vehicle sharing agreements (ambulances etc). I then disconnected my ethernet cable from my computer. The game continued to run. Cars continued to move, water and power continued to do their thing, and the vehicles that I had set up to assist my current city continued to arrive. Problems only arised when I tried to switch between cities after disconnecting, with it saying that it couldn't load the city. It seems to me like the city not being stored locally was the only thing keeping me from switching.

[AkemiAzula 280]

If we could play them offline after the hypothetical shutdown point then that would be good. Alsoe if they had a permissive attitude to modifications to gameplay

[Jim14409 448]

 

Apparently some folks from Simtropolis will be at Maxis tomorrow. It'd be nice if they ask aggressively (not rudely) about the possibility of an offline mode for longevity's sake and it'd be nicer if they don't give a non-answer.

It just occured to me...

If the game is on the servers, and I assume most or part of it is, then even if cities were savable to the players machine, WHAT would they be played on? 

 

I admit that I don't fully know or understand how such systems are set-up when a game is played from the servers. Seems some part would be on the servers and a minor part on the download or physical media the player has. Anyway, wouldn't the cities be unplayable without the WHOLE game?

Maybe someone can shed some light...

Like I said earlier in this thread, during the beta,  the game seemed playable without being connected. I did this experiment in Beta 2 where I claimed 2 areas, built 2 simple cities and set up some vehicle sharing agreements (ambulances etc). I then disconnected my ethernet cable from my computer. The game continued to run. Cars continued to move, water and power continued to do their thing, and the vehicles that I had set up to assist my current city continued to arrive. Problems only arised when I tried to switch between cities after disconnecting, with it saying that it couldn't load the city. It seems to me like the city not being stored locally was the only thing keeping me from switching.

Had you rebooted you would not have been able to do anything I'm almost certain.

[Hoipus 292]

 

 

Apparently some folks from Simtropolis will be at Maxis tomorrow. It'd be nice if they ask aggressively (not rudely) about the possibility of an offline mode for longevity's sake and it'd be nicer if they don't give a non-answer.

It just occured to me...

If the game is on the servers, and I assume most or part of it is, then even if cities were savable to the players machine, WHAT would they be played on? 

 

I admit that I don't fully know or understand how such systems are set-up when a game is played from the servers. Seems some part would be on the servers and a minor part on the download or physical media the player has. Anyway, wouldn't the cities be unplayable without the WHOLE game?

Maybe someone can shed some light...

Like I said earlier in this thread, during the beta,  the game seemed playable without being connected. I did this experiment in Beta 2 where I claimed 2 areas, built 2 simple cities and set up some vehicle sharing agreements (ambulances etc). I then disconnected my ethernet cable from my computer. The game continued to run. Cars continued to move, water and power continued to do their thing, and the vehicles that I had set up to assist my current city continued to arrive. Problems only arised when I tried to switch between cities after disconnecting, with it saying that it couldn't load the city. It seems to me like the city not being stored locally was the only thing keeping me from switching.

Had you rebooted you would not have been able to do anything I'm almost certain.

Of course. The cities are stored on the cloud. I wouldn't have been able to start a new city because I wouldn't be able to connect to the servers, and I wouldn't have been able to authenticate with said servers due to not being connected.

 

My issue is that the need to connect to save/access cities seemed to be the only things preventing this from happening, and not serverside calculations. If serverside calculations were really important, I'd imagine I would be kicked out much quicker than 20 minutes (experiment from 1st beta where I just unplugged it to see how long I could play for).

[Jim14409 448]

 

 

 

Apparently some folks from Simtropolis will be at Maxis tomorrow. It'd be nice if they ask aggressively (not rudely) about the possibility of an offline mode for longevity's sake and it'd be nicer if they don't give a non-answer.

It just occured to me...

If the game is on the servers, and I assume most or part of it is, then even if cities were savable to the players machine, WHAT would they be played on? 

 

I admit that I don't fully know or understand how such systems are set-up when a game is played from the servers. Seems some part would be on the servers and a minor part on the download or physical media the player has. Anyway, wouldn't the cities be unplayable without the WHOLE game?

Maybe someone can shed some light...

Like I said earlier in this thread, during the beta,  the game seemed playable without being connected. I did this experiment in Beta 2 where I claimed 2 areas, built 2 simple cities and set up some vehicle sharing agreements (ambulances etc). I then disconnected my ethernet cable from my computer. The game continued to run. Cars continued to move, water and power continued to do their thing, and the vehicles that I had set up to assist my current city continued to arrive. Problems only arised when I tried to switch between cities after disconnecting, with it saying that it couldn't load the city. It seems to me like the city not being stored locally was the only thing keeping me from switching.

Had you rebooted you would not have been able to do anything I'm almost certain.

Of course. The cities are stored on the cloud. I wouldn't have been able to start a new city because I wouldn't be able to connect to the servers, and I wouldn't have been able to authenticate with said servers due to not being connected.

 

My issue is that the need to connect to save/access cities seemed to be the only things preventing this from happening, and not serverside calculations. If serverside calculations were really important, I'd imagine I would be kicked out much quicker than 20 minutes (experiment from 1st beta where I just unplugged it to see how long I could play for).

My points are bolded in your comments.

 

Of course you couldn't start a new city, but you could not have played any city you had created before once you rebooted your machine. I don't think it is as simple as "the need to connect to save/access cities seemed to be the only things preventing this from happening".

When you connect there are other files that are downloaded to your machine OTHER than the cities. Once the machine is rebooted these files are no longer available until reconnection is made to the server. The game is designed to be played online and I believe it would require major alterations to be otherwise at this point.

[Hoipus 292]

 

 

 

 

Apparently some folks from Simtropolis will be at Maxis tomorrow. It'd be nice if they ask aggressively (not rudely) about the possibility of an offline mode for longevity's sake and it'd be nicer if they don't give a non-answer.

It just occured to me...

If the game is on the servers, and I assume most or part of it is, then even if cities were savable to the players machine, WHAT would they be played on? 

 

I admit that I don't fully know or understand how such systems are set-up when a game is played from the servers. Seems some part would be on the servers and a minor part on the download or physical media the player has. Anyway, wouldn't the cities be unplayable without the WHOLE game?

Maybe someone can shed some light...

Like I said earlier in this thread, during the beta,  the game seemed playable without being connected. I did this experiment in Beta 2 where I claimed 2 areas, built 2 simple cities and set up some vehicle sharing agreements (ambulances etc). I then disconnected my ethernet cable from my computer. The game continued to run. Cars continued to move, water and power continued to do their thing, and the vehicles that I had set up to assist my current city continued to arrive. Problems only arised when I tried to switch between cities after disconnecting, with it saying that it couldn't load the city. It seems to me like the city not being stored locally was the only thing keeping me from switching.

Had you rebooted you would not have been able to do anything I'm almost certain.

Of course. The cities are stored on the cloud. I wouldn't have been able to start a new city because I wouldn't be able to connect to the servers, and I wouldn't have been able to authenticate with said servers due to not being connected.

 

My issue is that the need to connect to save/access cities seemed to be the only things preventing this from happening, and not serverside calculations. If serverside calculations were really important, I'd imagine I would be kicked out much quicker than 20 minutes (experiment from 1st beta where I just unplugged it to see how long I could play for).

My points are bolded in your comments.

 

Of course you couldn't start a new city, but you could not have played any city you had created before once you rebooted your machine. I don't think it is as simple as "the need to connect to save/access cities seemed to be the only things preventing this from happening".

When you connect there are other files that are downloaded to your machine OTHER than the cities. Once the machine is rebooted these files are no longer available until reconnection is made to the server. The game is designed to be played online and I believe it would require major alterations to be otherwise at this point.

Why not just have the files in a local location? That doesn't seem like such a big change.

[nhgriffith 179]

Because the intercity simulation is run on the server.

Also, for validation to prevent cheating.

[Hoipus 292]

Because the intercity simulation is run on the server.

Also, for validation to prevent cheating.

But I was playing alone, disconnected, and the agreements I set continued to run. It only stopped me from playing when I tried to swap cities.

 

Why would people care about cheating when they aren't playing with anyone?

[Jim14409 448]

 

 

 

 

 

Apparently some folks from Simtropolis will be at Maxis tomorrow. It'd be nice if they ask aggressively (not rudely) about the possibility of an offline mode for longevity's sake and it'd be nicer if they don't give a non-answer.

It just occured to me...

If the game is on the servers, and I assume most or part of it is, then even if cities were savable to the players machine, WHAT would they be played on? 

 

I admit that I don't fully know or understand how such systems are set-up when a game is played from the servers. Seems some part would be on the servers and a minor part on the download or physical media the player has. Anyway, wouldn't the cities be unplayable without the WHOLE game?

Maybe someone can shed some light...

Like I said earlier in this thread, during the beta,  the game seemed playable without being connected. I did this experiment in Beta 2 where I claimed 2 areas, built 2 simple cities and set up some vehicle sharing agreements (ambulances etc). I then disconnected my ethernet cable from my computer. The game continued to run. Cars continued to move, water and power continued to do their thing, and the vehicles that I had set up to assist my current city continued to arrive. Problems only arised when I tried to switch between cities after disconnecting, with it saying that it couldn't load the city. It seems to me like the city not being stored locally was the only thing keeping me from switching.

Had you rebooted you would not have been able to do anything I'm almost certain.

Of course. The cities are stored on the cloud. I wouldn't have been able to start a new city because I wouldn't be able to connect to the servers, and I wouldn't have been able to authenticate with said servers due to not being connected.

 

My issue is that the need to connect to save/access cities seemed to be the only things preventing this from happening, and not serverside calculations. If serverside calculations were really important, I'd imagine I would be kicked out much quicker than 20 minutes (experiment from 1st beta where I just unplugged it to see how long I could play for).

My points are bolded in your comments.

 

Of course you couldn't start a new city, but you could not have played any city you had created before once you rebooted your machine. I don't think it is as simple as "the need to connect to save/access cities seemed to be the only things preventing this from happening".

When you connect there are other files that are downloaded to your machine OTHER than the cities. Once the machine is rebooted these files are no longer available until reconnection is made to the server. The game is designed to be played online and I believe it would require major alterations to be otherwise at this point.

Why not just have the files in a local location? That doesn't seem like such a big change.

Whatever worked and gave the one who purchased the game reasonable control and ability to possess their purchase would be an improvement don't you think? As it stands EA gets the money and the player gets access to their servers until they decide you are no longer welcome.

 

Such is not a business transaction I would ever enter into. I used to play several MMO's online some years ago and I paid a monthly fee but I never "bought" the game upfront and therefore it was clear from the beginning I would never in any sense "own" or possess the game. It was a month to month transaction and both parties were fairly well satisfied. SC2013 wants the purchase price upfront and then who knows how much or how often to keep the game running or current.

 

My two favorites by the way were EVE and A Tale in the Desert.

[sdkby 8]

I was waiting for this game but I didn't know that it will be multiplayer oriented with "always online" requirement.

 

Definitely no purchase for me while this game requires "always online". 

 

Simcity 2000 and Simcity 4 were nice single player games.

[arcology 224]

Because the intercity simulation is run on the server.

Also, for validation to prevent cheating.

But I was playing alone, disconnected, and the agreements I set continued to run. It only stopped me from playing when I tried to swap cities.

 

Why would people care about cheating when they aren't playing with anyone?

 

That's a really good question. 

[cirugo 1,889]

Exceptions to - what I feel - will become a rule. Remember the growing focus companies are putting on profiling and data mining consumers in our industry.

That's the million-dollar answer right there.  I personally don't care if they find a way to do this without requiring me to have to be constantly connected to a server to play a game which doesn't lend itself well to muliplayer but until they find that way then I will continue to voice my objections.

[nhgriffith 179]

But I was playing alone, disconnected, and the agreements I set continued to run. It only stopped me from playing when I tried to swap cities.

 

Why would people care about cheating when they aren't playing with anyone?

Leaderboards, world market prices. And yea, your agreements continued to run, but that's not all that happens at a regional level. Pollution, crime, commuters, etc., these happen at a regional level. So just look at pollution for example. Sure, you can say City A has polluters, City B doesn't. I'm only playing City B, and right now the pollution isn't reaching me, so what's there for the server to do, right? But the thing is, the wind can change in direction and intensity--the developers have stated that.

So while you're playing City B, what happens when the wind changes directions? The pollution levels in the region need to be recalculated. Your city is depending on something that happens at the regional level, involving your neighboring cities, that can change in real time while you're playing other cities. City A itself isn't directly effected by these changes so much (other than having a new wind direction next time its loaded up I suppose), but it interacts with stuff happening at the regional level (and changing at the regional level depending on how City B is playing) and then in turn impacts City B.

And this happens even in a region where you're playing by yourself and controlling all of the cities so no two cities are ever being controlled at the same time.

Now, I don't know any specifics on how they're doing any of this stuff from a programming stand point, and I don't know how realistic at all it would be to be able to handle this on a single computer if a player is playing offline, but the only difference between a private region being played by one player and a private region being played by 2 or more players is that the solo-player hasn't invited any friends yet (or he has, and his friends haven't accepted his invite). So clearly, even if the programming computations are that hard for my computer to do on it's own, if we're playing multiplayer, we clearly need to be online in order for those things to be calculated in real time and directly impact our cities as the changes actually happen.

But your point is primarily about solo play.

Look, if it were up to me, I'd figure out how to allow people playing the sandbox cheat mode (and therefore not involved with leaderboards or the world market data) to play offline. I don't think an online validation check when you first start the game is that big of a deal, but after that, I don't really see why players in THIS mode shouldn't be allowed to play offline. But Maxis' hands are ultimately tied by EA, I'm sure.

I mean, think about SimCity 4. What interactions do you have on an inter-city regional level? Commuters, and deals for power, water, electricity. Is that it or am I forgetting something obvious? But compared to the inter-city regional stuff that is happening in the new game, that Maxis requires a connection to their servers to help calculate the data, this is a ridiculously shallow amount of regional level data.

So first off, the new SimCity handles those 4 regional level things better. Everything about the transit simulation system is better (which means significantly more processing power). But think about the way commercial buildings work in SimCity 4. The Sims don't actually go to parks... or schools... or hospitals... or stores to shop. For the first 3, they're either in the radius or not... they're not part of traffic to get to and from these locations. For the last one, shopping at stores... in SimCity 4, the number of customers a business got was based on traffic that passed that building on its way to or from work. A commercial building out in the middle of nowhere would have no customers (except its employees presumably).

And while it's still a bad idea to build a commercial building in the middle of nowhere, because they will still benefit from higher traffic volume (for more customers), the fact is, the commercial buildings are now a destination point for people other than the employees of that building. So in combination with the convention center, the stadium, casinos, and all the landmark type buildings you can put in your city, all the sudden there's an entirely new set of population in this new game.

In SimCity 4, we simply had residents, commercial jobs, and industrial jobs. In the new game, we have all that... but we also have people that are purely in your city as a visiting tourist. They don't live or work there. They're just there to shop, or gamble, or sight-see.

So I know I went on a bit of detour, but I've made my way back to the point. This set of tourist population, this is also something calculated to a degree at the regional level. You're going to get a certain number of visitors to your city from outside the region, and I don't know if the game calculates that on your computer or regionally. You're also going to get visitors from neighboring cities in your region. The game has to compare the population of the neighbors to the tourist desirability of your city. And additionally, if you build the International Airport, the game has to calculate tourists coming in from there to your city.

[Yeth 10]

Thanks guys for all the information here. I wasn't aware that there would be an internet connection requirement to play this game. I almost preordered it today, but you saved me   I won't ever buy a game with that requirement again. Cheers!

[nhgriffith 179]

The broadband requirement is listed on the box, and on the Origin website along with all the other usual computer requirements.

And by the way, the speed requirement is listed as a mere 256 kbps down and 64 kbps up.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Thanks guys for all the information here. I wasn't aware that there would be an internet connection requirement to play this game. I almost preordered it today, but you saved me   I won't ever buy a game with that requirement again. Cheers!

I think that merely having an internet connection required to play in and of itself is hardly a reason to not buy a game. Firstly, there is a single player mode, and secondly, most games are going this way.

[dysonraf 37]

I really dont get the issue with always online. For console gamers its becoming the norm and pc not far behind. If it prevents piracy thus pumping money back into developers and publishers im all for it. And online is always more fun than single player in my book

[AnathemaDevice 35]

I really dont get the issue with always online. For console gamers its becoming the norm and pc not far behind. If it prevents piracy thus pumping money back into developers and publishers im all for it. And online is always more fun than single player in my book

 

It doesn't prevent piracy but it does penalize genuine paying customers who for whatever reason don't have a permanent connection or don't want to open their computer up to snooping from outside.

 

Just because online is more fun for you doesn't mean it is for all of us, some of us play games to escape from people, the last thing I want is other people involved in my game time. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a social element for those who do want it but there is no justification for forcing it on us, certainly not under the lie of it preventing piracy.

Thanks guys for all the information here. I wasn't aware that there would be an internet connection requirement to play this game. I almost preordered it today, but you saved me   I won't ever buy a game with that requirement again. Cheers!

I think that merely having an internet connection required to play in and of itself is hardly a reason to not buy a game. Firstly, there is a single player mode, and secondly, most games are going this way.

 

Maybe it's not a reason for for you but it is for me and many others. If EA can afford to lose a large chunk of sales that's up to them, there are still plenty of games I can play that don't require always online connections. I don't care how many new games go this way, I simply won't buy any of them.

[RoseCityAlive 9]

I really dont get the issue with always online. For console gamers its becoming the norm and pc not far behind. If it prevents piracy thus pumping money back into developers and publishers im all for it. And online is always more fun than single player in my book

 

It doesn't prevent piracy but it does penalize genuine paying customers who for whatever reason don't have a permanent connection or don't want to open their computer up to snooping from outside.

 

Just because online is more fun for you doesn't mean it is for all of us, some of us play games to escape from people, the last thing I want is other people involved in my game time. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a social element for those who do want it but there is no justification for forcing it on us, certainly not under the lie of it preventing piracy.

> 

Thanks guys for all the information here. I wasn't aware that there would be an internet connection requirement to play this game. I almost preordered it today, but you saved me   I won't ever buy a game with that requirement again. Cheers!

I think that merely having an internet connection required to play in and of itself is hardly a reason to not buy a game. Firstly, there is a single player mode, and secondly, most games are going this way.

 

Maybe it's not a reason for for you but it is for me and many others. If EA can afford to lose a large chunk of sales that's up to them, there are still plenty of games I can play that don't require always online connections. I don't care how many new games go this way, I simply won't buy any of them.

 

This is what gaming is now, I dont think EA will notice. 

[Hoipus 292]

Only if people stay complacent.

[Daytripper 41]

SimCity doesn't just require players to be always online, it requires them to always be connected to Origin.  According to the Origin EULA (emphasis added):

 

2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.

 

In addition to information that you give EA directly, EA collects non-personally
identifiable (or anonymous) information for purposes of improving our
products and services, providing services to you, facilitating the provision of
software updates, dynamically served content and product support as well as
communicating with you. The non-personally identifiable information that EA
collects includes technical and related information that identifies your computer
(including the Internet Protocol Address) and operating system, as well as
information about your Application usage (including but not limited to successful
installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware.

 

EA reserves the right to scan our entire PCs and send that information back to it.  This is not limited to our usage of EA's product but includes ALL our files, programs and hardware info, whether or not it is related to the product in question.

 

Other companies allow players to opt out of some or all of the information collection or to turn off invasive features.  EA allows no such option, indeed its EULA states "If you do not agree to any portion of this License, do not install or use the Application."

 

Some people do not care if EA spies on the contents of their computers, they are entitled to their opinion.  I, for one, do not believe this information is any of EA's business so I will not install Origin for SimCity or any other game.

 

 

[AkemiAzula 280]

I would have highlighted 'non personally identifiable' myself...

[Daytripper 41]

I would have highlighted 'non personally identifiable' myself...

Any "non-personally identifiable information" would be "in addition to information that you give EA directly".  Origin users will simply have to trust that neither EA nor anyone with access to "non-personally identifiable information" would link it with the information they hand over when they buy, register or play their EA products through Origin.  Again, some may trust EA, others may not care.  I care and choose not to do so.

[nhgriffith 179]

The part you highlighted in bold isn't much different then the information any website collects when you visit it.

[Jim14409 448]

Naivete abounds and is found to be fertile ground for many who may or may not have the best interests of others at heart. A healthy dose of caution, even suspicion is a dose of wisdom in my opinion.

[AnathemaDevice 35]

The part you highlighted in bold isn't much different then the information any website collects when you visit it.

 

The difference is that you don't have to give the websites you visit access to snoop around all the files on your computer, any half decent firewall keeps your private stuff private but I bet Simcity won't work if you deny it inbound access.  

[nhgriffith 179]

The part you highlighted in bold isn't much different then the information any website collects when you visit it.

 

The difference is that you don't have to give the websites you visit access to snoop around all the files on your computer, any half decent firewall keeps your private stuff private but I bet Simcity won't work if you deny it inbound access.

If you're really that concerned, just make a new partition on your hard drive just for your Origin stuff.