Jason's BATs & Tutorials

[Francis90b 748]

Actually i have to believe that, being large cities like Chicago, NY or Shangai in far smaller number than mid sized cities, perhaps the hipothesis that the majority of the mid-rise skyscraper are located into megalopolis might not be completely true....but of course this is only pure speculation.

I did wrote that being generic as the "street scene" that you might want to use as a base for the reflections might be the best choice.And then i wrote that perhaps taking into consideration some pics of a similar existing building at night might be a good idea.

I saw them as two vaild ideas that, if not taken literally, coud complete each other.They are contraddictory between themselves if considered alone, put perhaps one of the two could remedy for when the other one falls short....

So, if you have to make a generic nightlight for a building you can't use, let's say, an Hong-Kong street scene as a base for reflections, but if you have to make a building that is very likely to be found in HK and not somewhere else (or is actually from there) you might want to consider that same pic....in short the point is to be as much generic as possible if you don't have any element to determine the building's location and context (i.e where is it located or where it might have been located had it been an existing building IRL? ; Which kind of "street scene" could be found in that place?) , and paying very much consideration to the context otherwise.

The problem of the references in themselves is a pretty big one...and everything there ends up being actaully a matter of personal preference.

But still it would be worthy to try to define some parameters which could reduce (if possible) the share of "personal preferences-opinions-biases" in the creation of that illusion in the game, don't you think?

[Evillions 552]

I think I've figured it out to make nightlights. You go into the Darknight light rig and change the window textures to a night window texture?

[SimFox 801]

meanwhile here is re-worked (a bit) Briscos Department Store

Left is before and right after shot.

Day:

DarkNite:

is it too much? I mean the colors of the store front windows...

[JonM 38]

Colors are never too much

Looks great, perhaps some accents near the top?

[Francis90b 748]

About the Brisco's...looking good!

Only one thing though, could you keep the pic you've used into the earlier version in order to simulate the background behind  the large groud floor openings?

I think it does match better with the upscale character of the building....

[SimFox 801]

Originally posted by: Francis90b

About the Brisco's...looking good!

Only one thing though, could you keep the pic you've used into the earlier version in order to simulate the background behind  the large groud floor openings?

I think it does match better with the upscale character of the building....

quote>

What???

[Francis90b 748]

Originally posted by: SimFox

quote>

Looking at the first two floors of the building (the area with the black walls) i did believe that your first version of the nightlights and the bitmap you've used on it to fake the interior were much more appropriate for the very nature of the building.I beg your pardon if i will be rude saying that, but honestly while looking at the first floor of the building in the first version i could imagine it as being the lobby of a dept store, looking at the same area in the current version i could rather imagine the first floor as occupied by a supermarket or something like that.

So, my suggestion would have been to do something like that...

(Your current version on the left, my suggestion on the right)

Of course this is only a sketch, but hope you can get the point.

[SimFox 801]

No, no, no... you weren't rude... I just sometimes have hard time understanding exact point you're trying to make. BTW what is your native tongue?

As for the store front windows... well I changed them because of Jason's request. He though that first version lucked detail and contrast variation to be dep store display window. I have to point here the fact that it was just exactly the same texture he actually used in first the original release. Incidentally I didn't change any of the textures. Yes I built them into new materials but the bitmaps are all same. All I did in second version - adjusted UVW mapping on the selected windows and tweaked the bitmap - contrast saturation and some such as well as light temperature of the self illuminated mat.

Well, let's as wait a bit and may be gather additional opinions and, of course the one of Jason himself... and then I'll see what I could cook up from it all.

[Francis90b 748]

My native language is Italian.

It's pretty interesting to know that you did use exactly the same bitmap that Jason did use on his first release....actually i couldn't guess it!

Well, let's wait for some more comments about the topic...

[SimCity4IE 202]

Sorry to interrupt, but may I ask how you got the front lights on the facade that look like bulbs just underneath the name of the store?

It looks beautiful at night. Very realistic.

[SimFox 801]

It is a glow lens map in Mental Ray. The same could also be achieved in Photoshop...

[Jasoncw 11,840]

There's a lot of stuff, so I'm just going to go point by point...

Roths Department Store

The window frames should be black (I know the actual material I made in max is blue (who knows why!  lol) but rendered as and were meant to be black).  The limestone and the spandrels should be a little brighter. 

In the facade, there should be a nice contrast between the black frames, the gunmetal grey spandrels, and the light grey limestone.  The new version looks a little muddy right now.

The brick should be a more neutral grey.  The original color came from overzealous colorization. 

It looks like the saturation of the relief carving and the wall around it don't match.

VanWingerden Plaza

The white parts should be brighter. 

I think the lobby will need a proper glass material.  Actually I'm sort of confused about that area right now, because in the day render it looks like it might be using the old material while in the night render it looks like it might be using a new one.

The glass on the tower is something I never got right.  It should probably be darker and less saturated. 

The flashing/parapet/whatever on the penthouses should be black.  Also, I know the roof is reflecting the blue sky, but I prefer the browner hue for this one.

 

Briscos Department Store

Thanks, I think it looks a lot better with the black window frames.

The grey parts that frame the vertical columns of windows, as well as the storefront window frames, are supposed to be chrome.  It's up to you if you want them to actually be a chrome material (or just the current grey color).  Kind of like the Empire State Building.

For the store fronts at night, I agree with Francis90b that the types and variety of colors in the new one make it looks more like a supermarket, and the almost monochrome scheme of the previous one looks more classy and upscale.

The store fronts during the day could be less blue.

Trier Tower

I think the environmental reflections could be more subtle.  Right now it's actually too dazzling.

Francis90b:  I sent SimFox the night versions of the buildings, which are the same as the day versions except for the lights (which can just be deleted), and the self-illuminated window materials, which use a different texture and a different uvw map.  So SimFox has had to reconstruct some of the UVW Mapping of some areas, especially ground floors.  So they're the same textures, just different parts of it are showing because of different UVW Maps.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

oh, hey everyone, SimFox has uploaded the darknite versions of Nafmis Department Store and the Knoll Building, so go check them out!

I just noticed them, lol

[SimFox 801]

Ok here are some updates.

ROTH:

I have desaturated brick, brighten the limestone and made frames black. I've also, as you can see revised night lighting scheme. I think it is pretty much in style of both building and era.

BRISCOs:

I've applied Chrome mat to those Window Flanking elements. And I like it.

Night Map for store front had been adjusted according with the requests. Is it good now?

[SimFox 801]

And here is another one. Centeral Police Station.

Day

south-east:

north-west:

DarkNite

south-east:

north-west:

here are originals:

[Jack_wilds 550]

I like the police station redo as it shows it off better...

[spa 968]

Interesting to see the redos. I'm not a big night light user (usually I play in day mode), but, on the other hand, I really like the neon that was added to Nafamis. Two points to consider.

1. The skylight on Roth doesn't look real at all. It seems painted on with the texture that's on it right now. I can almost even see that it's just a texture of a cityskyline. Looks very fake and unconvincing and I found my eye drawn to it right off.

2. The police station is great! But, as long as you guys are doing a redo, why not model those lights that it needs on the front? Right now the facade lighting just appears out of nowhere on a blank wall. Where's the light fixture?

That's all I have to offer

[SimFox 801]

Originally posted by: spa

Interesting to see the redos. I'm not a big night light user (usually I play in day mode), but, on the other hand, I really like the neon that was added to Nafamis. Two points to consider.

1. The skylight on Roth doesn't look real at all. It seems painted on with the texture that's on it right now. I can almost even see that it's just a texture of a cityskyline. Looks very fake and unconvincing and I found my eye drawn to it right off.

quote>

Well, both your eye and your logic had failed you.

Eye because it doesn't recognize what it sees.

Logic, cause if that would be a texture it would be appearing in other view as well, now, does it?

In fact it is a reflection of penthouse and sky behind it...

Originally posted by: spa

2. The police station is great! But, as long as you guys are doing a redo, why not model those lights that it needs on the front? Right now the facade lighting just appears out of nowhere on a blank wall. Where's the light fixture?

That's all I have to offer quote>

Well it certainly could be considered, yet there are few problems with it. First of all the Cool lights on the south facad - those are fixed into sidewalk. Would be difficult although not impossible to make. And those more like mounted on the wall. well the fixtures themselves are really on the boarder (actually bellow it) of visibility at games zoom levels. Also if one says "A" it is logical to expect "B". and making good looking lights (say like on my SEV) would create too much "light pollution". If I would to skip glare it would be just tinny and un-impressive white pixel.

So, there are reasons why those are not there, it's not just "oh, I've forgot/didn't think of it" sorta thing.

All-in-all I'm afraid it will be too obstructive for such a small building...

[Francis90b 748]

Ok, so here are my considerations:

Roth Dept store: I can't really say anything bad about it's nightlighting, except for the point that was highlighted by Spa.

Other than this it is just perfect, though.You succeeded in achieving a very realistic result that does fit very well with the building type, style and era. Very well done !

Central police station:

Very good job here as well!

Oh, i can't see the last pic about the brisco's nightlighting.

Speaking about the Brisco... well, i like the chrome material for the "window flanking elements", but i'm not too convinced about what it is inside it.I believe that the black "interfloor walls" between the windows do look somewhat "blurry" right now.

Which material was used there? Are they supposed to be made by steel, granite, marble or what?

[spa 968]

Ahh yes it's not a texture. My mistake... Still it looks like one! The reflection just isn't convincing. It's too stark. It's too blue. It doesn't fit. Part of the problem might be that there is nothing actually underneath it so it just looks flat and the strong colour makes that more apparent. I had the same problem with my Canadian Broadcasting Centre. The skylight just wouldn't work no matter what I did. I ended up having to model the atrium underneath it so that there was an actual space there that could be partially seen through the semi-transparent glass... All of that, however, might be too much work for this particular project.

As for the light fixtures on the police station I disagree. I have put them on every bat I have made when needed (no lights coming out of the void for me thank you). You could easily add a small fixture at the point that the lights are originating from. The sidewalks could be done too as part of the model. There is room to spare on this one and it's not like they would be far from the building. Even if it wasn't possible to add the sidewalk lights, that doesn't mean the facade lights couldn't be put in. It would still look better and be more realistic to have some fixtures as opposed to none. The facade of this one is so smooth and flat, and the lights originating point is so obvious that leaving out the fixtures feels like a real ommission. Adding them would only take like 5 minutes. They would have to be small, but it's those small details that make for a really great bat.

Anyway, it's your redo, do as you want. At the end of the day, the points we're discussing are happily minor.

[mattb325 28,880]

These re-works look lovely. Brisco department store has to be my favourite so far.

I agree with Spa, and prior to your explanation/berating - to me the sky-light on the second view on the Roth building looked off as well - it is just that after your explanation I can see what you are trying to achieve, but it still looks off.

It would not reflect in such a manner at that angle or that intensity.

Flat-ish skylights are few and far between, and I have used Bing - which has a similar birds-eye view to show you a building in Sydney which has a huge expanse of flat glass roofing and is surrounded by large skyscrapers as well as the smaller penthouses, so there is a lot of opportunity for reflection...and you can see that it is very different from yours. The glass reflects the overall colour palette but certainly not the details: in this case the reflection of the blue sky is actually darker than the building.

Secondly, regarding the lights on the police station - these are beautiful - no doubt about it, but the omission of the actual light fittings lets the building down - you have argued the points so many times before that there should be accuracy in other peoples bats, and you have levelled criticism at others for lights that just magically appear - all you need do is model the light fittings (not change the lighting to look tinny/give light pollution - I don't know how you got that from Spa's comments).

You could model the lights fixed into the sidewalk by making it a slightly offset prop. Also, and most importantly, the uplights at each corner of the building (as well as the uplights at the rear of the building flanking the entrance) are visible in the game view port and you would do the building an immense favour by adding the fittings. As it stands now, the old building is possibly more preferable as the lighting coming from the void is far less noticeable.

As said, these are your Bats - and they are absolutely magnificent - and you can do with them as you want, but seeing you have gone to all of the trouble to render/re-render them countless times to get 'realistic' night lights, it simply defies logic that you would let something so simple slip aside...

[nofunk 1,933]

Regarding the skylight on the Roth: I think the real issue here is how reflective the glass is. It looks absolutely pristine, like they installed the glass yesterday. Flawless glass on a 70 year old building just doesn't  ring true.

Even if it were a newer addition, or if the skylight glass had been replaced, it would still be subject to the full brunt of Mother Nature, bird droppings, and dust and dirt from the roof getting kicked up on it. I imagine it would be much less reflective.

SimFox: Would you be willing to try lowering the reflectivity some and then presenting a new render?

Regarding the accent lighting on the police station: I wonder if people realize that the sidewalk lights you are referring to are spotlights encased below small, maybe 6-inch circles of plastic that are flush with the sidewalk. Why anybody would model that into the building model, much less make a separate prop for this is beyond me.

EDIT: Here's a photo of one, for reference:

(P.S. I'm not trying to offend anyone; I just really wonder if people don't realize what type of lighting SimFox is referring to.)

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Light Fixtures:  The reason my BATs don't usually have light fixtures is because I don't think of them when I "design" a building, and because by the time I get to the nitelites I either don't care or forget about them.  If SimFox would like to model some light fixtures that's fine, and if not, that's also fine.  I think some light fixtures could look good on the police station, although I don't think there's anywhere they could go on Roth's without disturbing the facade.

Roth's:  The colors look a lot better now.  Even though the building is art deco, I think that it is too conservative/reserved for the revised lighting scheme, and I'd prefer it without the added lights.  In both day and night, the uvw maps on the store fronts and on the large window above the entrance look like they're fitted to each part, rather than spread across all of them.  So the texture is really scaled down, and it repeats.  At night since the texture is so scaled down, the scale of the detail in the night texture is so small that it interferes with the pattern in the window frame, and I'd like for that pattern to be legible.

Brisco's:  To me the chrome actually looks really jumbled, and almost looks more like rendering artifacts than anything else.  I think if the chrome was less reflective, it would be more legible while still having a metallic quality to it.  The way the light hits the chrome at night looks really nice though.  The new store front looks good too.

Central Police Station:  The upgrade is looking good.  The new lighting/materials really brings out the form of the building.  It looks like some of the wall's UVW Mapping got messed up (sorry, I know a lot of the uvw maps from these BATs are convoluted).  I'm not sure how I feel about the mixture of blue and white lights, as well as the blue interior lights.

[PBGV103 729]

Hey SimFox, personally I like the envoronmental night time reflections, aka "squiggles," but wouldn't it look even better if you overlay that same material effect over the trunite lights but reduce it by about 50-70%? If you look at buildings in RL those squiggles are on every window, they just don't show up quite as much on internally illuminated windows. I think the slate material editor could be useful here. It would allow you to map out visually all of the effects you have on the windows at night.

[citiesxlfan42 27]

Yay! The Queralt Hotel is released! It is spectacularly done. I love it.

PS: I gotta say, I think you are one of my favorite BATers on ST.  If you ever watch my upcoming CJ, you will see tons of your buildings. Good job, and keep it up!

[josefmayor 8]

Hey Jason latest BAT looks great. Excellent job!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

citiesxlfan42:  Thanks!  I appreciate it!  I like seeing people use my BATs in their cities, especially when they're well used.  I don't read CJs very often, but I'll keep an eye out for yours when I do.

josefmayor:  Thanks!

So, I've worked more on the glass building.  I'm wondering what else to add to the plaza.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

I think it looks fine to me! And the red cube in the plaza reminds me of the HSBC Bank's red cube sculpture in New York.

[Jack_wilds 550]

Hello Jasoncw,

Like the progress and the court yard, and the generic reproduction of such structures found in Suburban Business Parks across the land

possible thoughts for additional however its close to being good,

...hot dog cart( or is it there under the umbrella, sorry-sorry its a plaza red cube artsy thing my bad)... sitting Sims... a modern sculpture art piece -ie there is one in Mattb325 latest prop pack that would perfect, provided its scaled right, to be placed in the entry area or the courtyard moving or removing the red cube... a company banners... couple of seating benches near entry and along side the planters -just a few though...

troubles with this type of late modern generic office architecture is its very geometric vert and hort, front to back and side to side and almost always monochromatic... I 'd look for a place in the court yard for some 'color relief', aside form props and street scene I can't quit see what it could be...

If you haven't hit on a name yet, I respectfully submit the following for inspiration...

Twin Oaks Office Park... SimTowers Professional Offices... All-Corporate Office Center... Corporate Commons Office Park... Court Place Business Center... WeBe Generic Offices... Jack-Wilds Corporate Leasing... Hi Reflective Office Tower... Sim-Gov.com Towers... Garden Plaza Commerce Center...plus whatever you have in mind as well...

Jack

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Sgt Pepper:  Thanks!  lol, yeah, I figured my generic corporate sculpture might remind people of sculptures they know.

Jack_wilds:  I've added some benches to the plaza.  I haven't gotten around to adding them outside of the plaza though.  There won't be a hot dog cart, and signage depends on what the name will be.  I'm still thinking of a name for it.  I'm not sure if I'll use any of those but if you or someone else has more suggestions, feel free.

So I added some benches and I started the nitelites.

For the nitelites you can see that only a small part of each "window" is actually a window.  One of the reasons they did these facades back then, was because the entire exterior could be a minimal abstract volume, but behind the mirrors they could do whatever they wanted, like have smaller windows (cheaper to heat and cool during the 70's energy crisis), without affecting how the exterior looks.  Even though I don't like these kinds of mirrored boxes, I think that's interesting.