Jason's BATs & Tutorials

[SimFox 804]

Jason, I’m afraid you’re at the error at this particular case, UWV map types that is…

Box map is really useful ONLY if you texturing a BOX. But buildings aren’t boxes, are they? Correct me if I’m wrong but even a box is nothing but a set of planes, right?

Here are advantages of using planar maps vs. Box maps:

1. Planar maps are being small building bricks will allow you to better texture building having other number of walls then 4 – say 3 or 5 or 6… Box UWV map will give you noticeable distortion.
2. Planar map leaves control over texture to you whiles in box map whenever there is a corner there texture will fold. And you don’t necessarily want it. There are plenty examples in either masonry or carpentry. For instance you want to include your window decorations into the wall texture , or say some climbing plants. If you use box UWV map you’re gonna have hard time controlling the placement of those.

Generally the right way to texture something as complex as a building is not to preset UVW maps when possible, but to use something called UWV Unwrap. This way you can create exact UWV map from polygons selected allowing you creation of perfectly matching custom textures. BTW, Maczar I’m 99% sure that’s what Porrkie does with his creations. Generally, people I would suggest to anyone serious about BAT look a bit farther a fields then just BAT itself and those tutorials on OMNIBUS, since may of them are either erroneous to the degree or not using the best methods (especially if you started using 3ds MAX) or simply dated and good only for basic stuff – making more complex structure with then is inefficient. Where are plenty of sites dealing with 3D modeling where people explore and explain new and advance techniques allowing to utilize the whole power of modern applications. Putting together talent of many baters with technological knowledge will bring the whole new level of quality to SimCity.

 

Another thing using Burn and Dodge is not bad, but still will produce very artificial looking results. This is exactly one of those dated techniques I mentioned earlier. When it was first used it was almost sensational, but as times going by and especially when used without the measure it doesn’t do much amaze as before. In stead of that use of so called dirt maps can be advocated. Simple, black and white mostly, maps could be mixed with base textures to get that authentic weathered look.

To see what I mean just go to this ling and click through the pages of this tutorial, especially pay attention to the pages 3 and 4!

'Making of Tunez'

from www.3dtotal.com

[Jasoncw 11,949]

1. The x and y sizes are the same that there is no horizontal squishing, read my tutorial and look at the one picture that illustrates it.

2. Those are special cases where other techniques would be used, but I'm not going over special cases.  Applying one single uvw map over everything you need to makes it a lot easier to align a bunch of different objects of different sizes and positions.

For The Vinton Building:

are you saying that I should make a seperate plane uvw map for every peice of wall there?  There's 10 peices that I want to have everything lined up with.

Gmax doesn't have uvw unwrapping, but the screenshot technique in the tutorial is a make-shift version of it, that actually does pretty much the same thing, since it's a simple wall.

I agree that the methods us BATers use are pretty crude and uninformed, but none of us (pretty much) has a profesional knowledge.  And for most people, even if they had the knowledge they wouldn't be able to use it with Gmax, and most of it isn't needed to make BATs anyway.  BATs are low resolution, easy to model, and have a simplistic style.  For the dynamic and unplanned process of making a BAT, the method of making windows in the tutorial you linked to is definitly not the best way, and for Gmax users isn't possible anyway.  The texturing is realistic, but SC4 isn't realistic.

And speaking of the Vinton Building... It's done!  I finished rendering it a few hours ago and I'll be sending it to T Wrecks soon.

edit:  Actually, there was some kind of problem with the render.  Either it messed up, or I messed up.  I'll have to look into it, but this thing only took 45 minutes to render anyway.

[callagrafx 3]

Originally posted by: SimFox

Planar map leaves control over texture to you whiles in box map whenever there is a corner there texture will fold. And you don’t necessarily want it. There are plenty examples in either masonry or carpentry. For instance you want to include your window decorations into the wall texture , or say some climbing plants. If you use box UWV map you’re gonna have hard time controlling the placement of those.quote>

I disagree...My BAT for this coachhouse below uses a texture on the front with climbing plants (actually, it came from a photo I took) and the UVW mapping is Box and it dropped straight into place.  It very much depends on how you model your BAT and is always a personal preference.  For years I 've been  using the same method as Jason whereby I take screenshots of the model and using them as a template for texturing, especially around windows.  It really does speed up the process, especially when dealing with intricate models.

Jason, many many thanks for this tutorial, it's extremely useful and sits well with the BAT essentials in the Omnibus.  Look forward to seeing it there soon.  With regard to texture resolutions, I generally make my textures 2x resolution and use the UVW tiling to better control the placement and scaling...this way if it looks too big I can scale it up on the model without resorting to a lot of photoediting.  Also, do you have a preferred file format for the textures?  I use web optimised JPEG files set at compression 10 and this seems to aid render times.

1. 

[moganite 4]

I have an idea. If I have a material I want to stain I could use a rust image for say a metal and then make what i wan transparent and even alter the transparency To create a partialy transparent image.  Then flatten the image and make it a layer of the material you want to model the flatten the layers.

I have begun to experiment with this but much simpler staining a roof with "rust" that is merely applied by an airbrush with its colour set to a rusty iron look..

The texture is below

It is crude but remember you probably wont see it in this much detail

I reckon in the case of aplying rust to steel structures it might just be adequate, although the above technique will probably yield better results.

[cammo2003 20]

It looks more like graffiti, moganite. It's the wrong colour for rust. Rust is more of an orangey red.

[SimFox 804]

Jason, Callagrafx: hm... I guess there is somewhat of a misunderstanding here... Are you guys using Box map to map only one (forward facing) wall of your structure?? Or an entire perimeter of the wall?

[callagrafx 3]

Simfox...exactly. I construct my buildings as they would be done in reality. If you have a solid object, how can you nightlight?

[SimFox 804]

so... if you texturing only 1 wall, why then BOX UWV map???

[callagrafx 3]

why not? As I said before, it's a personal preference thing, it makes no difference. We each have our own ways of doing things, but just because the way Jason or I do something differs to the way you or others do it, doesn't make it incorrect.

I've been using 3DS from v3 up to v7 and have always done it this way, so why change if it works for me? I know that by applying a box UVW, it makes no odds what plane is facing front. If I make a box and scale along the X axis to create a "wall", I do not need to think "I must scale it this way and rotate it because of the map" when the BOX UV will apply to all faces, thereby saving me time. Lazy possibly, but hey, when dealing with small, relatively low resolution BAT's, why waste time. Some things will just never been seen properly.. An example of this is my Kabin BAT...each and every log is a UV mapped cylinder, rather than a textured solid. It looks great in close up in 3DSMax, but the detail gets lost ingame.

If you have a different method, do as Jason has taken the time to do and post a detailed tutorial, so people can compare methods and see which one works best for them.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Thanks callagrafx.  Usually make my textures pretty big too.  I keep them as .psd because I make so many changes to them as I go.  I usually have a ton of layers too, but my render times are still short (The Vinton Building took 45 minutes).  Lag is my limiter.

Moganite:  I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I think I do something simliar.  I won't be putting anything specific like that in the tutorial though.

Simfox:  I'm personally talking about the entire perimeter of the wall.

Ok, so I tried re-rendering the Vinton Building, but it still has the same problem. As you can see below, part of the fire escape shows up infront of the wall, even though it's behind it.  The preview renders don't show that happeneing, and I don't think my custom LODs would cause this.

I'll post this in the BAT Workshop too.

[moganite 4]

A few simple edits of a texture to make a block of concrete to look like a helipad. For my helipad in my sept prop pack I wanted a yellow circle with a H in the center. I found a suitable concrete texture and then drew a circle on top of the image and then added a single letter "H" in the same colour as a layer.

had to map that texture in a planar as if i did it using box mapping I had H in a circle every where maybe i should upload some of the models I have used this technique on.

The program I mostly use is the gimp though I have also found a nifty image editor to assist with some parts that the gimp couldn't do, also free Paint.NET. For some very basic stuff I have an ancient version of paintshop pro but thats mostly screen captures and image merging.

The idea was to get an image of rust and then reduce to transpaceny by alpha channel and then apply those 2 layers to a base image to create a Rust with the material you are modeling. as i still have not much experince in graphic image editing and am still getting the hang of layers thats probably why i am having trouble explaining how i would aproach the problem.

[ardecila 125]

Are you sure they don't show up in the preview renders? Black objects on the perimeter of the image tend to blend in with the background. I've made this mistake several times.

What I would do is select all the fire escape objects, group them, and then put a FFD on it. Then move the control points over, resizing the fire escape so it doesn't show behind the wall. I like FFD modifiers, I use them hundreds of times on each building now. They're more precise than Select and Non-uniform Scale.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

I can't really make the fire escape smaller without it being too small.

So anyway, it's been about a week so I should update on things.

The Vinton Building is pretty much done.  It just needs to have the querry added in, and for more updates on that you can look in the Barry Sanders Project thread.

I've done more work on the Penobscot Building.  I've finished another section (the middle section, the part between the two wings).  But when I extruded the spline there were funny errors.  It looks like I didn't weld one of my verticies, but I really don't think I did (although it's a big wall so it's a possibility).  I think that if I remake it by pretty much tracing the old one, that it would work, but I don't want to do that because I just spent a long time making the original.  I'll look around for some answers, but if someone knows what I mean, then that would be appreciated.

Here's a screenshot:

[ACEfanatic 7]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw I've done more work on the Penobscot Building.  I've finished another section (the middle section, the part between the two wings).  But when I extruded the spline there were funny errors.  It looks like I didn't weld one of my verticies, but I really don't think I did (although it's a big wall so it's a possibility).  I think that if I remake it by pretty much tracing the old one, that it would work, but I don't want to do that because I just spent a long time making the original.  I'll look around for some answers, but if someone knows what I mean, then that would be appreciated.

quote>

Well, if that's the only problem, just go to the Modifer panel, select the spline, weld the points, and reselect the extrude...

-ACE

[Jasoncw 11,949]

lol, that's one of those mega obvious things that I didn't think of.  I just tried it now though, and it didn't fix it.

[ACEfanatic 7]

Try selecting EVERY vertex on the spline at the same time, then welding.

You can also try increasing the tolerance for the weld, if the two points are too far away to weld correctly.

Other than that, I have no idea what caused that...

-ACE

[SimFox 804]

Just check if vertecies are welded. Select one (well select that thing that is suppose to be one vertex) and see how many selected will be displayed. Sometimes they just wouldn't weld. there could be tons or reasons (as always) in 3D why they wouldn't. the point is to really see the state they are in so you can take it in account when you slap modifiers on top of them.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

I ended up remodeling it (which didn't take as long as I thought it would, it actually went pretty fast).

I also remodeled and replaced all of the windows so far, which cut polygons by 3/4ths.  I also remodeled one of the walls, and that reduced the polygons on that wall even more.

I also pretty much finished the middle wall that I was talking about, just some small things left to do.

The polyon count has been brought down to 171,000.  I estimate that the final count will be 375,000.  Maybe 400,000.

Back when I started this I thought it was going to be a lot more easy, lol.  I think the Guardian Building would have been easier to do.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

The Vinton Building has been uploaded!

It will show up on the STEX in a little while.

[Hanson784 165]

Excellent work Jason. The game is lacking in the way of filler buildings.

[Spike345 20]

Yes, Filler Buildings are my Favorite and this one is perfecto, can we expect similar ones that are found in Detroit?

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Thanks.

All of the Detroit buildings in the pipeline right now are pretty prominent buildings...

One Woodward Avenue

211 West Fort Street

The Penobscot Building

There's also the Modern Building from a while ago that's been on my mind.  I really just need to redo the skylight on it and it's ready to render.  It's not from Detroit, but it's almost done.  There's also that big black building from last summer that I can render once I figure out the 3dsmax lighting stuff.  The same goes for that building from a few weeks ago.

For my next Detroit Project I was thinking of:

-Lafayette Park Pack (4 different residential towers and a bunch of low rises all designed my Mies van der Rohe).  This might be really hard to get reference photos though, and just because of the size of the pack, it might take a while to do.

-Hart Plaza Park Pack (A direct recreation split into modular lots.  There's a few different peices of public art there that are definitely Detroit Landmarks, plus an ampitheater and probably some other stuff that I can't think of right now.  The Pylon from earlier in this thread is in Hart Plaza, so technically I'm already started).

-First National Bank from Ann Arbor (this was in the poll I had a while back).

These are things I've been thinking of.  I'll make a poll about it when I'm ready to start a new project.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  I'm looking for something easy going.

[nofunk 1,933]

Ooh, I didn't realize van der Rohe designed any Detroit buildings. I found a few reference photos on Flickr, but mostly they're of the towers, so good luck with the low rises.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever thought about what's in your icon? I assume it'd be pretty complicated to BAT, but who wouldn't love a Guardian in their cities?

[Jasoncw 11,949]

The Guardian Building would have been easier to do than the Penobscot I think.  The Penobscot Building's clean and steam lined design tricked me into thinking it would be simple to make.  To be honest, I think if I would have done the guardian building it would almost be done by now.  All of the tiers are making the Penoboscot complicated.  Plus, each wall has at least 3 levels of depth, and then most of the windows have ledges that I need to include and all that kind of stuff.  I wish I had more time so I could work on it more.  I haven't worked on it in a week.

[JBSimio 152]

Nice list Jason. Your downtown should be in pretty good shape by the time that's all done! I was wondering whatever happened to the Modern Building (I still laugh a little when I say that) I really liked that one, so I'm glad to hear it's still coming. Can't place the big black one off hand... I'll have to sift back to refresh my memory. Hart Plaza would be a very cool thing to have. I like the modular idea. I think there's a small museum down there, if I'm not mistaken.

Now I'm alll excited again! (Maybe it's just caffine... I don't know) Wooooohoooo!

JB

[Sim shady 12]

Omg i was shocked at how small the vintn building was. lol i thought it was going to be a decent sized skyscraper. it looks fantastic btw, and there is a huge shortage of this kind of building in SC4

[Jasoncw 11,949]

ok, here are some old pictures of my projects.  It's been longer than I thought

The Pylon (part of Hart Plaza).  Since then, I've added a little base and tweaked the rest of it a little:

Big Black Building (The top is cut off but looks the same as the side you can see).  I've also done work on this since this image:

The Modern Building.  Just need to redo the skylight:

The Green Building:

Lafayette Park (most of the pictures on the first page are of it, the second page doesn't have any)

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=lafayette%20park%20detroit&w=all

I'm going home in about an hour, and I won't be back untill tommorrow afternoon, so I won't be doing any SC4 work.  I'll still have internet access, but I don't think I'll be spending too much time on the computer.

[alex23476 17]

nice

i like the modern building

got a nice balcony thing

[spa 970]

The Vinton Building has turned out great. Thanks for releasing it. It looks like you're in a similiar place with your projects, a bunch needing finishing! If you're taking votes I would love to see the Modern Building finished up, but I'm really glad you're going to redo the skylight. It really doesn't look natural.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Ok everyone, I have some bad news...

I was trying to find the modern building so that I could work on it, and I couldn't find it.  All I could find was "modern.gmax" and "modern10.gmax".  Both of those are super early versions of the building.  I also did a search on my computer for "modern" and I didn't find it.

All that's left of it are two super early files of it, a draft quality rendered model, some textures, and some screenshots. 

My computer had been redone since I worked on it (which was a long time ago), and when I transfered my files to the new computer I must have accidentally deleted it.

In other news, I'm back at my dorm now, so at least I can work on other things.