hkabat-forum-threads PaulvMontfort's Showcase

[paulvmontfort 617]

I want the reflection to look like on the real building. It looks a bit distorted and I like how the two towers reflect eachother. My version doesn't have that.

In short: Click the link in my previous post and you'll know how i want it.

[bixel 1,228]

Why are the windows not reflecting each other? Hrmm...also there are so many funky variations in the real windows...maybe I can come up with a window texture for you that might work in favor of your vision.

[paulvmontfort 617]

that would be great!

[bixel 1,228]

Try this one..you might have to adjust some of the umv mapping

[paulvmontfort 617]

I played around with some settings and i got a pretty cool result. I used Bixel's texture only it isn't very noticable. Overal, it's pretty cool although it's way too bright

[SimFox 804]

Basically first step to receate the effect you see on those photos is to understand what you see there. You see reflection. and as such it only works when there is something to reflect. Also you have to remember how reflections work. Basically you see reflection of an object located at the angle equal 180-x where x is angle of sight. So that means no way you can get reflections of sky when you look at the building from point of view of SimCity. Environmental maps and generally virtual environments do not work with orthogonal cameras used in BAT, so you can not use those (apart form SCREEN projection which will give you plain wrong picture anyway. To work around this you can create geometry with sol purpose to be reflected in your reflective surfaces then make it invisible to camera, so you would see only reflections and not the objects themselves. You can texture those with all sorts of things - photos, procedural maps etc. Rippled effect on the photos is there cause glass isn't perfectly flat, so if you want same effect to show in your renderings do just that - make your glass NOT perfectly flat, by adding bump map to it. I would suggest to use noise map in bump map channel. You can play with setting s to find the right ones to fit particular building. remember to set this noise map to WORLD XYZ, otherwise you'll have repetitive patterns if your reflective surface isn't one single object. Alternatively you can make custom bump map to fit individual segment, with such a perfectly repetitive window pattern as in Lippo this shouldn't be a big problem (in this case each window would have to be a separate object). Also all glass, unless it is a perfect mirror will have reflectivity depend on the angle of view - so at 0(180) degree it is 100% reflective and at 90 degrees it could vary between almost 0 for best optical glass to various amounts for various glasses but none is 100% reflective. Light will still pass inside through the "mirror" windows of skyscraper. To get realistic looking glass all this should be taken into account. You can set those numbers in falloff map which should be in the reflection slot. In you standard box shaped building this effect wouldn't be too noticeable due to the same orthogonal projection used in game, but in building with geometry as complex as Lippo this effect will be significant. So I suggest to put it to good use. If you have any particular questions ask and I'll try to provide screenshots with settings.

[jacqulina 162]

looking great so far

[paulvmontfort 617]

although it's close, It's not exactly what i want:

[ Image too big - oversized image replaced by a thumbnail. If you use ImageShack anyway, you better stick to thumbnails anyway, as they save ImageShack, Simtropolis, and user bandwidth.

 If you don't know how to use ImageShack's thumbnails option with the ST forum software, read the first post in the "Show us how you use HKABT content!" thread, which contains a tutorial. ]

- T Wrecks

[bixel 1,228]

Nice tester!

There might be a way to add in geometry to the scene but have it invisible for the camera..I have done this before when I was creating a HK texture...I imported a bunch of buildings then slapped a huge rectangle with a umv map on it behind the buildings made all building invisible to camera then rendered the scene...the result was a nice reflection of a mock city in the texture...so theoretically you can do the same..could mean for a longer render process.

For making object invisble to camera try right clicking...check the options.

[purpledaddy 6]

Popping in and I just read SimFox's reply, but how are you getting the glass to reflect anything on the outside at all?

[SimFox 804]

Paul, what do you think about this material?

I haven't yet put any bump map into it, not sure I would even want to... But I'll try... later this week I'll have some free time to experiment with it more.

Bixel: yes there is a way to make ANYTHING invisible to the camera. just right-click the object you would like to hide and select Properties and there uncheck box "Visible to Camera" and voilá. Same goes for ground plain for instance. It is essential in many lighting setups as to prevent light coming from the down under. But it shouldn’t be there in the render… One thing, all those things should be added AFTER LODs were set, otherwise you would need manually adjust them.

One thing that shouldn’t be done/used – flat “screen” backgrounds. And backgrounds with clouds, at least not for the renders for the game. Of course if you have some reflective elements facing up then sky would be good, otherwise it is absolutely pointless – if you do your setup right you’ll never see reflections of it! If I’m not clear enough just ask, I’ll be happy to explain!

Key thing here is that  when you make glass you shouldn’t think TEXTURE, you should think MATERIAL. Texture is only one and absolutely not necessary part of material.

 

Purpleduddy: Sorry I didn't quite get it... What do you mean "to reflect anything on the outside at all"??

[paulvmontfort 617]

@ Simfox, I'm fully aware that buildings in Simcity can't reflect sky. And BTW, the material used in my testing rig doesn't have a texture either, only for the bump map. I asked some guys on Turbosquid and they said i should use a reflective material with a noise map so that's what you see in the test. And last: I would be glad to test that texture and see if it works

[SimFox 804]

Paul Could you post here or send to me the settings of you material (screen shots), so I make some suggestions. Right away the material I used most probably will not work on your system, but we can adjust yours to look like one I used.

BTW the part about texture was mostly targeted to Bixel. On the other hand TEXTURED windows could also work fine in some cases, but not (IMHO) on totally glass curtain wall. On masonry buildings with relatively small windows Texture is probably the way to go, I saw so many absolutely excellent examples, normally those are more orles chaotic color splotches - overall they give very believable impression of the reflections, but if applied to one unbroken surface I think it wouldn't work.

Problem with noise map in bump channel is that although quick and easy it creates way to random effect, when in real life there is a clear pastern for distortions. I have couple of ideas how to get it simulated in automatic way but I haven't tested those yet and I don't want to be come a laughing stock...

BTW#2 How are you planning to do the night lighting? Night windows??

Here is how the material from pictures above looks in perspective view (from human position  - 1.7m) I think it is important to test your material form such and angle because this is a view of the world we are all intuitively familiar with. This way often it is easier to spot the problems then from odd view angles like one in-game one. After you got basics right then it is possible to tweak it to fit the confinds of the game…

shadow	sunny side

[ SimFox: Just in case you wondered what happened with your pictures, I converted them both to thumbnails because one next to another in full size they also messed up the screen layout on a resolution of 1024x768. Hope you don't mind. ]

- T Wrecks

[purpledaddy 6]

Originally posted by: SimFox

 Sorry I didn't quite get it... What do you mean "to reflect anything on the outside at all"??quote>

 

Sorry for my lack of clarity.  One of the potential great tricks of Sim City that I don't think I've seen yet in the game or the fansites, unless I'm seeing it now in this thread, is that of the mirrored walls of buildings displaying reflections, be it the sky, the ground, it's own shadows, or neighboring buildings.  Am I seeing that now in this thread?  If not, is it possible?   I'm just curious.

Thanks!

Al

[T Wrecks 10,210]

This is NOT possible in game, since SimCity is NOT aan actual 3D environment where rays of light are actually traced, reflected, etc. SimCity is merely an environemnt where a flat 2D image of a previously rendered scene is used as a texture on a simple, mostly cube-shaped object called LOD shell. The reason you don't see this LOD shell in game is that those parts of its faces that are not covered by the image of the building are made to be transparent, and that the game is capable of detecting which of the LODs is in front of another one.

All you can do is assemble any scene in the 3D software (gmax, 3DSMax), set a light rig and some parameters concerning reflection etc, and then render. The resulting images of the building will show the reflections from that scene that was used for rendering, but the outcome will always be a completely static texture. There is no way around that.

This is also one of the greatest arts in BATting: To make a texture that looks as if it was reflective, but is so generic that the reflection could be anything and doesn't look out of place no matter where the building is.

EDIT

@ Paul: Your picture is too big and messes with the forum layout. Please resize to max. 800x600 or replace it with a link or an Imageshack thumbnail or something similar. For some reason I can't edit myself yet, although I should be able to do so now. Thank you!

[paulvmontfort 617]

@ Simfox: I'm pleased to hear your ideas on how to get it done, I've tried lots of things with no succes. BTW, I was planning to use nightwindows like all other buildings i've done.

[purpledaddy 6]

Wow, that was polite and fast!

Originally posted by: T Wrecks This is also one of the greatest arts in BATting: To make a texture that looks as if it was reflective, but is so generic that the reflection could be anything and doesn't look out of place no matter where the building is.quote>

 

That continues to be a reason that I remain in awe of everyone's work (that, and well, the complexity of the GMAX that is.  )

------

Meanwhile I think the buildings look awesome.   They remind me of the RL structures close to the Bureau of Bureacracies.

[SimFox 804]

Well, T Wrecks gave such a definitive answer that I don't really have anything to add to it!

[mcarch 15]

Paul: That looks Great!

[paulvmontfort 617]

@ T Wrecks: Lol, sorry about the picture, I know the rules. the problem is that i'm currently working with a resolution of 1920x1200 pixels so i didn't notice it was that much oversized

[T Wrecks 10,210]

1920 x 1200 ? Luxury kid! Well, take care that you don't exceed that magical 800 x600 limit no matter how envy-inspiring your resolution is. Remember that there may be moderators around... drunk moderators at that!

[paulvmontfort 617]

@ Simfox, Are you willing to share some of your ideas with me?

[SimFox 804]

Hello Paul... sorry it took me a while... 
Well, I would be glad to help you as much as I could. Just like with Lighting rig my material most probably can't be just moved into your scene - different versions of max and renderer - many materials are renderer specific (and, BTW, so are lights) but what's really important is a principal of how this material is built. And this is another point - I would prefer to explain to people how to do it themselves rather then give a ready tool they have no idea about and have no idea how it works. Knowing those things is essential to use the tool well and creatively.

Few points on glass.

1. it is never 100 % reflective at 90^o angle

2. it is never 100 % opaque (when we speak of actual windows, not wall panels, - and even then it isn’t the case...)

3. Reflectivity of the glass is dependant on the glancing angle - minimal at 90^o and 100% at 0^o

4. depending on the renderer you use glass may HAVE TO HAVE thickness (that is a case in V-Ray), otherwise it will not look right.

5. Color of the glass doesn't come (in most cases) from the defuse map!!! But from the Fog map! This is very important! That’s why glass has got to have some thickness. Also be realistic about it if you want glass to look realistic, as most renderers try to fake “real” thing.. so make your glass say 1cm thick (some exaggeration is ok given the scale of things in SC) but not 1 m thick. Some renderes may have they own shaders that can fake it effectively with just a plain, but mostly this isn’t the case.

Reflections.   Broken, irregular reflections are there due to the fact that no glass is absolutely flat. Mimicking this is a trickiest bit (in my book) and I haven't really come up yet with tested working solutions but I have few ideas.

1 “hand painted” bump map. If you have regular lattice you can easily enough “paint” few windows and then toss them around so that repetitions wouldn’t be too obvious.

Here is an example of what I mean… this is very crude I just made it now in c a minute or so.. but it should gives you my idea.

Paul, if something needs some clarification, tell me what exactly… This is quite big topic if to start if from the ground.. and with you I think there is no need for that.

 

T Wrecks: 
with all due respect… I do, Mind that is... I thought there was a rule that image can be max 800x 600 pixels, isn’t it so?? And ruining something for people with 1024x768 displays… what about people with 800x600 displays? I mean what are the ground rules? And what do youmean messed up? As much as I understend ther will be scroll added with such a resolution, that's all... Is that ruining? If so - most LJs are ruining layout for 1024x768 resulution as well.

I specially made those images 400 pixels wide that when side by side both will fall into set 800 pixels rule. And I specially put then side by side so that difference could be easily seen. THis new arrangment negates this. Also I think it is important that images could be seen together with the text and not replacing the text when viewed. This is a general believe. So if to make such active thumbnail thingy – then it should open new window and display full size image there. So that in effect both image and text could potentially be seen together as intended.

So I would kindly ask you to leave my images as they are unless they break some sort of rule I’m not aware of. And if that is the case let me know and I’ll try to fix it in such a way that my presentational idea remain intact. OK?

I want to stress that I don’t mean it as any sort of disrespect... I know I have “came through as rude” on few threads here. It generally seems to be atmosphere of sugarcoating and pampering around and nobody says anything critical regardless of how ridiculous some of the posted things are. I think it is wrong. People post in PUBLIC forums. It should be PUBLIC’S right to come and express its opinions. I’m sure I haven’t posted anything offensive, unless you count as such quoting some of the authors passages and asking simple question what this PUBLICLY made claim is based on.

BTW… It doesn’t affect Simtropolis’ traffic when images are actually hosted offsite? Or does it??

[paulvmontfort 617]

now this is more like it:

P.S.: Simfox, Are you willing to render this when it's done?

[jacqulina 162]

wow that looks beautifull cant wait to see more progress

[mightygoose 92]

i was about to say when are we going to get back to the matter at hand, batting hong kong, and there i say there is my answer...

[Sim shady 12]

S%#! thats looks amazing! awesome reflections too

[Skyfire2275 23]

It looks great, but just a wee bit too saturated and too bright, in my opinion anyways.

[Chris M 406]

Yes, the model looks good! But, I agree with Skyfire, tad too bright for me.

[Sim shady 12]

doesnt the bat darken things a bit once put into the game?