Three Rivers Region

[teddyrised 1]

Hey dedgren, glad to know that you're still enthusiastic about 3RR Do not worry about how others perceive your CJ. If they decide not to post comments or even view it, they're at loss as lots of valuable lessons and insights could be learn from this CJ. I will be always there to support you spiritually dedgren... so fret not, and move on

Take care!

[Gaston 0]

Pheeeeeeew, (wipes the sweat from brow),

      I was a bit worried there for a bit.   Glad as glad can be that you are gonna stay here and keep up the (turns on the echo and reverb on the mic):

 Adventures

 In 

Mapping.

   This is really good news.      I for one am very much looking forward to the next update.

---Gaston (aka  Al; but I actually answer quicker to Gaston in RL.   I'll have to tell ya'll why sometime.   If ya wanna hear.)

BTW:   For some reason, all of a sudden Snowcapped LOWER is now working.     I am not sure exactly why but I did rearrange some stuff and I re-downloaded & re-installed a small part of it and it now works!    WooooHooo

[tchaos713 5]

Glad to hear this will be continuing. This has become one of my favorite CJs... by one of my favorite people on this site (mainly because you actually have a sense of humor and you are unconditionally supportive of people's RL stuff).

Cheers, and I look forward to more mapping.... now if I could only figure out why SC decided to crash on a "Save and Exit" last night after four hours of unsaved work.... you'd think I would've learned by now....

Daniel

[threestooges 0]

The last game pic you had was a shot of slope lines on a blank map (or the plop water tutorial also comes to mind). It's worth it to us to keep coming back, so as long as it's worth it to you to post then... it should be good...especially with the odd/unusual pictures and other forms of entertainment you provide. Incidentally, I just noticed some previous replies to some of my messages that I never noticed until now (I must make a better effort to look back more often) and I may just take you up on your offer to discuss the law profession, if it's no trouble to you (I'll take all I can get).

[dedgren 830]

I hate to resort to cheap devices, but...

...hey, I'm a lawyer...

... in order to lull you into a false sense of security with respect to the "meat" part of this post, which I'll be adding to over the weekend until it's done sometime Sunday night, without further ado...

Here's some more Alaska "Leaf Peeping" Eye Candy!

#1


Looking down Hatcher Pass, just north of where I live.

#2


Come on in, the water's fine...

...if you're a frickin' polar bear, that is.

#3


Where the water in the previous pic comes from.

...so munch away, my pretties...[cackle, cackle]...

Because here come the tables and charts, and more of that scale stuff.
_____________________

I'll stop here (7:15 a.m. AST  GMT-9) to give the weak of heart time to run away.

...run away...  ...run away... [ linkie ]

I expect to be adding to the post every six hours or so over the remainder of the day today and tomorrow, so if you're seeing this note, feel free to come back for more.

Okay, so here's the first added bit, at about 10:00 a.m.

You'll recall that we left off with the following side-by-side comparison of Bloomington-Normal, Illinois and the eastern half of 3RR.




To summarize as to the size of the area represented by this composite map, it is 10 miles on a side, 100 square miles in total area, and would consist, if uniformly divided, of 16 large townships ("game" cities), or 64 medium townships, or 256 small townships.

I created a pictogram (note that it is not to scale with the road maps) that certainly helped me visually grasp the relation in size of the three township areas.  If they were stacked with the large township (yellow) on the bottom, medium (green) in the middle and small (red) on top, aligned on their southwest corner then covered with a reference grid they would look like this.



Here's a table, which will require some explaining.

	Area (sq. miles)	Average Population (urban)	Population Density (per sq. mile)	Average Population (suburban)	Population Density (per sq. mile)
Township (City) Size
Small	0.4	25,000	66667	10,000	26667
Medium	1.5	100,000		40,000
Large	6	400,000		160,000

Now, I'll be the first to admit that I don't have anything to base the figures in the urban and suburban population columns in except my own experience creating SC4 cities over the past four years or so and a whirlwind review of the info here on ST.  I did a search using "population" in the forums and reviewed the likely looking topic threads:  while there's plenty of folks who've pushed "skyscraper forest" large city squares into the millions, the upward density for most seems to top out somewhere below half a million.  Thus my choice of 400,000, which is simply reduced proportionally for medium and small city squares based on their respective areas.  Suburban areas are a little harder- those are really "seat of the pants" figures.  I went back through various cities and looked for ones I have created with more or less uniform single family and small multi-family development- it pretty much always seemed to be about one-quarter of any really honkin' urban population density nearby.  Thus 160,000 in population for large city squares, which I again reduced proportionally for the two smaller size squares.

The adjacent "population density" figures then represent my take on Sims per square mile for uniform density urban (66667) and uniform density suburban (26667) areas.  Lets next see how these densities compare with those of all U.S. cities (n.b.: just within the city limits- not including any adjacent conurbation) over 200,000 in population.  Here's a table sorted from most to least dense, and then cut off at 25 cities.

Rank	Municipality	State	2000 Population	2000 Land Area in Square Miles	Population per Square Mile
1	New York city	New York	8,008,278	303.3	26,401
2	San Francisco city	California	776,733	46.7	16,633
3	Jersey City city	New Jersey	240,055	14.9	16,093
4	Chicago city	Illinois	2,896,016	227.1	12,749
5	Santa Ana city	California	337,977	27.1	12,451
6	Boston city	Massachusetts	589,141	48.4	12,165
7	Hialeah city	Florida	226,419	19.2	11,766
8	Newark city	New Jersey	273,546	23.8	11,494
9	Philadelphia city	Pennsylvania	1,517,550	135.1	11,233
10	Miami city	Florida	362,470	35.7	10,160
11	Washington city	DC	572,059	61.4	9,316
12	Long Beach city	California	461,522	50.4	9,149
13	Baltimore city	Maryland	651,154	80.8	8,058
14	Los Angeles city	California	3,694,820	469.1	7,876
15	Buffalo city	New York	292,648	40.6	7,205
16	Oakland city	California	399,484	56.1	7,126
17	Minneapolis city	Minnesota	382,618	54.9	6,970
18	Detroit city	Michigan	951,270	138.8	6,855
19	Seattle city	Washington	563,374	83.9	6,717
20	Anaheim city	California	328,014	48.9	6,702
21	Milwaukee city	Wisconsin	596,974	96.1	6,214
22	Cleveland city	Ohio	478,403	77.6	6,166
23	Rochester city NY	New York	219,773	35.8	6,133
24	Pittsburgh city	Pennsylvania	334,563	55.6	6,019
25	St. Louis city	Missouri	348,189	61.9	5,622

As you can see, the only city that has a density that even approaches "game" suburban density is New York City.

n.b.:  (10-9-06 5:40 a.m. AST GMT-9)  Off to get ready for work.  A trial today.  This isn't moving along as fast as I'd hoped because of the problems with the large tables.  Back again tonight.

Later.

[st louis dude 6]

It's beautiful

[Tommy_Vercetti3 3]

Looks cool. A part of me wishes I lived there.

[meldolion 1]

WOW!! Fantastic scenery!!!

[Fischbob 9]

Well dedgren (or should I call you David?), I've just digested the first 15 pages of 3RR (up to your overview map), and I must say that I'm impressed. Your eyecandy shots are beautiful, your tutorials useful and thorough, and your writing interesting and entertaining.

I'd read the rest right now if I had time, but I've got a commentary to do over this (Canadian) Thanksgiving weekend that I'd like to get over with. You can be sure though that I will follow up with the next 16 (I think it's 16 right now?) pages. You have a wonderfully unique way of CJing that is strangely addicting.

Keep 'er up, dedgren! (or should I call you David?)

[dedgren 830]

Sorry to break in with an OT post, but there appears to be some sort of major emergency at ImageShack [ linkie ]- I just emailed them the following:

_________________________

Hi.  You folks provide a great service.  Recently, however, I've become aware of a problem that may be a major one.

I use ImageShack to provide pictures on a website, Simtropolis, set up for folks who enjoy the game SimCity4.  Recently I have received several inquiries concerning picures hosted by ImageShack that will not load.  I urged the folks who did this to right-mouse-click where the image should be and select "show picture" when this happens as I believed that it was likely due to a page loading slowly and the browser timing out.

Today, I experienced the problem on the first page of the topic where I am posting the pictures.  No matter what I did, I couldn't get the pics in question to load.  I finally navigated to the ImageShack website "My Images" page and, to my horror, found that apparently every image with the root

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/

was simply gone.

Here's a sample of what an affected "My Images" page looks like.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/393/10072006135402bu1.jpg

Now, I have backup pics.  About 20 or so appear to be involved so far.  Could you email back and let me know if I should start uploading replacements, or if the problem can be corrected at your end.  It would also be comforting to be told what happened.

I will go through the other 30 or so pages of my topic to see if anything else is involved.  I'll let you know if there are further problems.

Thanks in advance for checking this out and getting back to me.

David Edgren

_________________________

I don't know what the problem is yet, but I'll keep everyone posted as to 3RR.  If you have pics hosted on ImageShack, you might want to check on them.

David

UPDATE:  (10-7-06 10:15 p.m. AST)  Well, about 5:20 this afternoon the pics reappeared.  No email from ImageShack, though.  I suppose it was a hard drive or something.  With 70+ pages of pics there, though, I get a little nervous.

I was also asked by PM from an extremely friendly and cordial admin...

...yeah, sorta like getting a home visit from an extremely friendly and cordial F.B.I. agent...

 ...to take my personal info out of posts and my sig.  While I puzzle over this a bit...

...I mean, hey, it's my name...are they worried some crazed City Life [ linkie ] fan is going to come after me with a sharp stick or something?

...I've made a few changes...

[capitol1 1]

Thats sketchy stuff man. You must have patience of a saint to go threw with looking for problems..normally i just give up after an hour.Thats why all the pictures on my cj are all still imgcityed and gibbered..If anything that i said made sense then ionno.......write a letter or something?

[Gaston 0]

Eeeeeek!   That is some worrisome stuff about image shack, David.      Let's hope they get it sorted out soon.

On an entirely different note.     WOW!   The first pic you posted (looking down the pass) is absolutely incredible.   I think if I could see that in person I would likely just set up a tent, then build a geodesic dome on the spot and live there forever.

And one other thing...

    "It has HUGE POINTY TEETH!!!"

And...

     "Brother Manard, bring me the Holy Hand-grenade of Antioch."

And one more thing..

      "The count shall be three..."

Incase you can't tell; I love that movie!!!!

---Gaston

[Zelgadis 638]

I reckon I should have guessed that you live in Alaska.   

Okay, I'm not that dense. 

Seems that you've had a bit of bad luck.  This is exactly why I started hosting my CJ on my .mac account rather than on an image site.  Hope it gets sorted out though.

ISF

[Nik-nik 3]

Image shack is having troubles? ~~~~~~~~ shivers through all ST CJ writers~~~~~

Great to see an unpdate again, David you SCARED US A BIT! dON'T DO THAT AGAIN.......

Nik_nik

[tchaos713 5]

I thought that posting personal info was a matter of choice... oh well...

I continue to be intrigued by your mapping... especially since you're using an area that I am fairly familiar with as an example (I have driven I-74 in Illinois approximately four times in the past two years going back and forth to my sister's college, Grinnell - she has since graduated).

[Gaston 0]

Glad to see that your pics are accessable again.   Hope you had a great weekend.   Later.

---Gaston

[Darmok 34]

Hi David

I had some similar problems with Imageshack once, but simply reuploaded a few pics and it was OK after....

Now on with the VERY IMPORTANT TOPIC

The friendly "Homeland Security agent / Man in Black / FBI / McCarthist / in need of a good proctologist strike that last part proctology has nothing to do with security.... but then again..." who sugest you / we should behave in such and such way, should perhaps read some good books or all your prose since the begining of 3RR, and then he or she would relax and enjoy Simtropolis for what it is, a FRIENDLY environment, I find it a bit akward to feel that someone is a more safe and "serious" person when hiding behind an avatar, don't you!

This is getting a bit Orwellian for my taste!

My friend I'm with you and you have my unconditional support on this topic, stay as you are that's how we like it.

Regards

-John (aka Darmok)

[sorchin 18]

Hi David. Beautiful Alaskan pictures. I never knew it was so beautiful there.

Concerning Imageshack. I have had similar problems. If I were you instead of uploading right away I would wait a day or two to see if ImageShack has rectified the problem. Sometimes the pics will "correct" themselves. Good luck...

[wouanagaine 83]

Hi david, time to come here again, and give you my support, sorry to not come sooner.

About Imageshack I got same problem in september, the image sometimes show, sometimes not. Really weird, even in my sig

Concerning the very important topic, I like how you hide it .

BTW Where on the rules it is said you can't post your personnal information, I'll really glad to see what this mod will reply . I really hate this kind of 'I know better what is good for you'

EDIT:

WELCOME TO PAGE 34

[bat 6]

Great pictures!

bat

[dedgren 830]

Well, I have a few minutes before I leave for the office, so I'll take that time to address an issue that arose here over the weekend, and about which several of you (wouanagaine, John (Darmok), Daniel (tchaos713) and Gaston (by PM - no link- that's why they're called "private" messages- but what Gaston wrote was a hoot)) have been so kind as to express your thoughts.

I do want to note that there is an ongoing update, and I'm laboriously adding further content to the last "on topic" post here [ linkie ].  I'd be really jazzed if 3RR comment #1,000, which is only a few posts away, was about 3RR and not this latest sideshow.

But I think the issue at hand is very important and timely, as I have recently noticed similar sorts of "applying the rules" upsets in other Forum topic threads.  To name names, jacqulina's "Kabin," where a person I consider a real friend is being driven to tears (and who knows where else- imagine your CJ without Jacky stopping by) by what seems like a rule that, while ostensibly uniform in application to "OT" topic threads, seems more or less calculated in its application to do her particular thread in.

...that's my 2c, anyway...  (I know that there are differing points of view on this, you can read them here [ linkie ])

So, what happened here is, in short, that ImageShack had some sort of problem on Saturday.  Some of my pics from earlier 3RR pages that were on a particular ImageShack server (#205) could not be viewed in the CJ and seemed, on investigation, to be missing from the ImageShack site as well.  I was concerned...

...no, actually you freaked out, man...  ...went 'round the bend...  ...lost it...

...and, in order to alert others with pics on ImageShack that the might be an issue...

...uhhhh, Houston- we have a problem [ linkie ]...

...I wrapped an "OT" new topic thread post [ linkie ] around the email to ImageShack I sent that company alerting it to what was up.  I also posted essentially the same thing here at 3RR [ linkie ].  On the OT thread, I did two things that brought me to the attention of the admins.  First, I entitled the thread in ALL CAPS.

...hey, you were upset...

Yeah, but I know the rules.  By the time I went back to change it, Beebs was on it and already had, posting a nice admonitory (and completely deserved) comment in the thread about the situation [ linkie ].  I posted a comment sheepishly acknowledging my error [ linkie ].  A few hours later, ImageShack apparently fixed its image server, as my missing pics reappeared.

So I thought that was it...until the second thing came back to bite me.

In the email to ImageShack, I included my full name.

...I mean hey- it's my name...  ...who else is going to use it?

It was thus included in my posts on ST.  I didn't think another thing about it...

...until I received a polite but firm message from a moderator telling me that personal info, and in particular the personal info in message and my sig, was best left elsewhere.  I note that my sig has contained my first initial: D. and last name: Edgren since day one: June 24, 2004, of my registration here on ST.  My doing that dates back to early UseNet [ linkie ] days, when signing messages was, as I recall, required.

I was dumbfounded.  Now, I won't mention the name of the mod here (or elsewhere, for that matter).  He/she was, as noted, very polite, to the point of being complimentary.  But the iron fist was clearly there behind the velvet glove- it was made clear that I had crossed a line.

Being a lawyer, I see implicit in every line a law or rule.  If I had crossed a line, I should be able to find a rule- as ST, as best I know, has no "laws"...

...except what I'll call Edgren's Law, which is that the number of commenters that follow any CJer's post is always inversely proportional to the number of commenters the CJer expects to see...

Anyway, I started by looking in the Omnibus [ linkie ] and immediately struck gold.  There I found the The All in One Guide to Posting on Simtropolis [ linkie ], started by some guy nic'd dirk back on March 9, 2006, which, interestingly enough, was three days before I started 3RR.

...no ex-post facto issue here, eh?

Well, I started reading...

...and reading...

...and reading.  There was the rule against ALL CAPS thread titles...

...yep, blew that one, sure enough...

...but, all the way to within sight of the end, nothing about personal information.  Then...

One more item -- a safety precautionquote>

I held my breath...was I about to become a two-time loser?

This last section started clearly enough:

It is no secret that we concerned about the safety of the kids here.  Most people here are cautious enough and aware enough to avoid getting into real life trouble but, unfortunately, there are people in the world who like to prey upon kids.  So, just to be clear, let's review a few points:
quote>

Sounds good to me.  A laudable objective- protecting kids.  I read on...

...and there it was:

1. Do not give out personal information such as your full name, address, telephone number, the school you attend, or any other information that may assist people in locating you in real life
quote>

Now, in Alaska, each part of a law must be read in a way that is consistent with the whole.

...I'll spare you citations to cases...

So I considered this numbered subparagraph in the context of the language just above it.  It seemed pretty clear that the prohibition on "giving out" personal information applied to kids.  I mean, if I...

...albeit admittedly a child at heart...

...gave out my own personal info, how could that assist anyone in locating any kid on ST "in real life?"  Common sense- it couldn't.

But that's just common sense, which sometimes has little to do with laws and rules.

I read on...

Do not agree to meet, in real life, with anyone you know from the internet, unless you have a trusted adult with you.quote>

Now, that clearly sounds (in perfectly pitched "need note from mother" tone) aimed at kids.

...I mean hey...true story...I met my wife on the Internet and if any adult, even a trusted one, had been along the first time we met later on in person, that adult really, really would have been a fifth wheel...

Kids, though, I agree.  A sound rule.  My sense that this section didn't apply to me grew.  Next...

3. If you feel uncomfortable with any interaction with another person on this site, let an admin know. We do not tolerate having people prey upon the kids here.quote>

Now, Hemingway [ linkie ] clearly didn't write that, but I can still figure it out.  To paraphase, "If you, a kid, have someone here who's bothering you, complain, because the management won't put up with it."  Again, a rule governing the kids here.

Pretty confident at this point, I skipped to the end.

The concern here is protecting the kids. We are not attempting to control how adults interact with each other quote>

Eureka!  A black-letter exception...

...excepting me!

I mean, I've spent the last 40 years getting over being 14.  I read this to say that if I want to interact with other adults here by posting my real name, my dog's name, and what I had for dinner last night- so be it.

I understand other rules restrict adult interactions like pics of full fronta providing more info than anyone with any sense of decency and propriety would want to know in any event, but there's nothing indecent or improper about displaying my name in my posts and comments to whomever I would choose.

So I intend to, until I am told about a ST rule that prohibits me from doing so, and then I will evaluate my options in light of same.  ST has the right to make any rules it wants in governing the participation and conduct of its members.  This, for a voluntary community composed of extremely diverse netizens, is a remarkably tolerant and civil place. The rare real transgressor here is, in my experience, speedily condemned by the vast majority of folks.  Bona fide nuts like me are tolerated, even indulged a bit.  I think that by and large we are self-policing, and that's a pretty good indication that the benevolent dirktatorship is working pretty well.

So, dirk, admins, mods, I'm D. Edgren and that's my line.

Peace?

[Tommy_Vercetti3 3]

Can't wait....... *Waits patently....sort of.*

[Yoman3 5]

Dear GOD!!

Yoman drops dead and is no longer able to write because he looked at the maps

[GMT 389]

hm... wierd... love this work. still love this work!

[Livin in Sim 83]

*knocks timidly on door of CJ*

Come in? Oh, OK! Hi, David, I'm Liv. Nice to meet you! I've been observing from afar, but have been fascinated. I love your eye candy, I'm a nature person. I like your farms as well. And your transportation systems, well, they have me in awe, as most of the amazingly detailed and well thought out systems in the CJ's of ST do. That's definitely not my strong suit, but I'll have to work at it a bit, tutorials in hand. It's the key to any good city or town.

I have tried my hand at the ploppable water, with your tutorials and rapids, and I'm pretty happy with those, thanks! The land bridges are very versatile, thanks for that lesson as well. I must admit, you've lost me a bit on the scale thing, but I've reread a few, and I'm starting to get it. Because I do love maps. I spent large parts of road trips poring over the atlas. (Only if I'm not driving!) My fave activity of a Sunday is to jump in the outfit with a Forest Service map and spend all afternoon getting lost and unlost on the backroads. For me some of your pics are gone still, tho, I know they would help me understand the scale topic.

Anyway, just wanted to drop in to say, "Great job, keep it up, thanks for putting all you have into this!" I appreciate the work and feel like I know you, so I will surely be back. Am off on vacation soon, but this might make me bring along my laptop.

--Liv

[Shadow Assassin 336]

Well, that's good you got it all sorted out...

The mods, obviously, aren't to blame. They're only the enforcers, after all... but some of them need a little more imagination .

Anyways, where's our Three Rivers fix?

[Rayden 7]

Hey David, that was prety lawerly exposed.

And now, that that matter is solved, what about an update, what about a mini tutorial on mapping?

Ansiously waiting for that!

Cheers

Silvio 

[jacqulina 162]

hi david my friend i read all of what you typed and i found it very interesting,its nice to read some researched imformation about the rules,and thankyou for the mention there .i am looking forward to more of your work be it updates or more imformative information.

[teddyrised 1]

I am always and ever as fascinated by your mapping skills dedgren! Thanks for sharing with us the wonderful views of Alaska how much I wish I could be there... awwww.

Thanks again for the comparison and evaluation of the differences between Simcity 4 and real life. Frankly speaking it needs a person to be very analytical and critical to do so and you've done it dedgren! Congratulations and this CJ is truly one of my favourite. The contents are simply too juicy!

Oh, and regarding the stark differences between the population density... I think the blame should be on the 16m / tile scale. Not everything can fit into the 16m / tile scale, for example, having 32m wide avenue is horrible wide! In my country each avenue lane measures about 1.5m and I think none of them will exceed 2m (that's why I think). That'll mean that the 4 lane wide avenue, with comparison to real life width of the lanes, should actually be at least 16 lanes wide in accordance to the proposed scale. Just my 2 cents

Wonderful discovery you have made over here through the course of this CJ. Keep up the excellent job and I can't wait for even juicier stuff!

[Edit]: Thanks to rayden for his reminder...

1000th post on 3RR!

[van1357 15]

David, just a quick post to say that I regularly visit 3RR and read most, if time allows, of what you post. I'm glad your images have reappeared and that you sorted out your "name" problem. Can I still call you David!? I find the scale topic interesting and the map are great. I can't wait to see what you do next with the region. Also, I love all the wonderful real-life pic you have shared with us all. Amazing scenery you have in Alaska. Thanks also for sharing all this research with us, and I look forward to what comes next...