Three Rivers Region

[jacqulina 162]

you are lucky to live near so much beauty,wonderfull pics david,your work on your cj is amazing,and fantastic details

[owenluby 1]

Nice comparisons there David. My plan for mapping is to expand the scale of the grid squares in SC4 and just live with it. I might make the squares say, 36m2... or something, I will see how it turns out.

Good luck with your endeavours,

Owen

[Nik-nik 3]

Point well taken David!

So a game is not similar to Real Life. Is that the conclusion.

OK, what's new?

I am a bit kidding. Your scientifica aproach to this game is astonishing (even more if you consider that you are a lawyer, aren't those the ones at high school that hate science class?).

Nik-Nik

[Duvad 26]

Hey David, as owenluby says, that is a great comparison and quite interesting. 

I've followed your CJ among many others for a while now as a lurker reading about the interesting little details of cities and design in SC4 and real life but this subject of scale in SC4 and how everyone's cities compare with real life is most important. I've always noticed how everyone seem to struggle (or else don't realise the issues) to create realistic cities in terms of their scale and proportion as many people including myself seem to be overwhelmed by just how large 2km and 4km in length really are, and usually believe the city tiles represent an area much larger than they do -- probably because not many people have looked down at cities from the perspective and distance that we do in SC4.

The City of Edmonton by TheJerseyDevil is not only a great region because of it being a recreation, but also it is a great reminder for people just how large real cities are when you put them to scale in the game of SC4 and to give us a reference and some inspiration for when trying to achieve our own realistic-looking cities.

... and with that I have to give myself some self-promotion with the region of Newcastle which I am making (based on nothing but inspiration from every Australian city I've seen plus other places I've viewed from Google Earth).

http://forum.toaoclan.net/files/newcastle-1159260884_169.png

That's the transportation map taken yesterday (so more progress has been done, but it isn't too much different from that) covering 32 square kilometres at the moment with a pop of 50,000 but I'm hoping to have expand to 225 square kilometres when I'm done with a pop of over 1,000,000. And like you said in your post, David, the amount of highways so far is minimal (infact none), and I'm into the inner suburbs now.

So anyway, I look forward to the second half of the update on this fascinating stuff.

- David / Duvad

[Rayden 7]

Originally posted by: Shadow_Assassin Well, I can't really comment on your last few updates, since it's text-only at the moment (your images, for some reason, seem to be broken). Must be my end... The google map images are the only ones that are not showing up.

A conspirancy, perhaps?quote>

 

I guess I'm having the same problem, I only can see the google ones as well.

Edit: I can see them now, but, I just can't see the difference between maps. Which one it's yours?

[asturianu 4]

Hey, David, beautiful pic from Alaska, as always, beautiful. Anchorage is one of my favourite cities, i LOVE IT, and i would love a pic from it. One day when you to Anchorage, take a pic to post here, i would be thank to you a lot!

Hey, the map "Simcity 4 Google" as i call them, is very realistic, but i'll suggest one thing. Make the yellow roads more small, but anyway, the map is perfect.

Great work you have done, my friend!

[Gaston 0]

Nice update David,

     Only one question though ...

Minneapolis.quote>

#7

    Hmmmm, someone rebuilt Minneapolis in the image of Houston.    

    Sorry couldn't resist.   I understand that you were making an excellent reference to the scale of the 3RR map and it's highway density as compared to Houston.     But I had to get a little ribbing in.   Especially since not a soul commented on my late post in here.     LOL

[Gaston 0]

Okay first,

   Sorry for the double post.   I didn't thik you'd mind since this is the CJ that got me hooked.    And since this is officially my...

100th POST !!!!!!!!!!

   I wanted it to be in here that I made that all important 100th post.  

Thanks for endulging me.  LOL

---Gaston

[dedgren 830]

Woo Boy Howdy!  what a week...

I'll spare you the "RL this...RL that" whine.  Suffice it to say that I have spent the last couple of days gritting my teeth knowing that there were both major errors in my last post that needed to be corrected, and several comments that really should have received a quick response.  I have a few minutes this morning, as my first client doesn't arrive until 10:00 a.m. (as always, AST- GMT-9), so rather than let things further slide until the weekend, I'll put up this interim post to kick things down the road just a bit.

First, I really appreciate Gaston noting that the city in the last post that was titled "Minneapolis" was actually Houston.  I am ashamed to admit that my first efforts to correct other problems I discovered with the post created this error- if you were one of the first viewers right after I put the post up, you will recall that there were 10 Google Map cities, and Minneapolis and Houston were both among them (and were correctly labeled).

With a few minutes to spare a couple of days ago at the office, I started preparing the images for the promised part two of the update and quickly came to a horrible realization- my assumption that once I had calculated and set up the viewing window in Google to the correct 10 mile by 10 mile size and scale for the first city image I could just move that window around the country and take screen shots of the other cities I wanted to use was completely erroneous.  For whatever reason, Google varies from place to place by up to about 20 percent so some of my "10mi x 10mi" maps were in actuality about 8mi x 8mi and others were over 11mi x 11mi.

Not wishing to let that situation go unaddressed, I began deleting the worst offenders, Minneapolis among them, and renumbering the seven remaining images.  Unfortunately, as Gaston pointed out (an "A" in geography to you, my man!), the Minneapolis title remained while the image was switched to Houston.

Confident that I would be able to revisit my attempt at a quick fix, I didn't proofread the updated post as carefully as I usually would.  The rest, as they say, is history.

But it gets worse.  I believed that the Houston map was correctly scaled- a notion of which I was quickly disabused when I attempted to superimpose the outlines of 3RR's townships (that's what I call individual cities in the game, remember?) on it.  Even though it was close, looking at the map through the outlines made it apparent that the points I wished to make would not particularly be effective.  Figuring that situation out consumed the remaining time up 'til now that I've had for 3RR.

Oh well- I'd rather be accurate than fast in any event.

Now, before any more time passes, responses to a few comments, newest first this time.

____________________

Gaston:  On 9/27 you noted your

100th POST !!!!!!!!!!quote>

Thanks for seeing fit to make it here, and for your ongoing interest in 3RR.  As regards akutak (Eskimo ice cream), I've eaten my share (I lived and worked in Kotzebue, Alaska (go to Nome, turn right, head north just past the Arctic Circle) [ linkie ] for about four years in the early 1990s.  Here's a linkie for those who would want (dare, actually) to know more.

Eskimo Ice Cream [ linkie ]

____________________

Cristian (asturianu - Lloyd, Ontario, Canada):  You posted on 9/27 to say

i'll suggest one thing. Make the yellow roads more small, but anyway, the map is perfect.quote>

The continuation of this post deals with this change- it's more or less interrelated to the whole scale issue.

____________________

Silvio (Rayden - ELS PIRINEUS):  On 9/27, you remarked

I can see them now, but, I just can't see the difference between maps. Which one it's yours?quote>

Silvio, my friend, you are way too kind.

____________________

David (Duvad):  Re your comment on 9/27, I'll be responding to your thoughts at some length in the continuation of the update.  Thanks for your first post on 3RR!.

____________________

Nik-nik:  On 9/27, you pointedly asked

So a game is not similar to Real Life. Is that the conclusion.quote>

I'll deal with my take on the relationship between SC4 and RL over the remaining course of this update.  Stay tuned.

...I'll note in advance, though, that the important (to me, anyway) differences between SC4 and RL are very relevant to why I enjoy the game as much as I do... 

____________________

Owen (owenluby - Unifire):  On 9/27, you said

 

My plan for mapping is to expand the scale of the grid squares in SC4 and just live with it.quote>

That's an approach I'll discuss along with a few others that come to mind.

____________________

Jacky (jacqulina - Paradise Falls):  On 9/27, you observed

 

you are lucky to live near so much beautyquote>

It's probably a lot like it would be to live in Paradise Falls...thanks, Jacky, as always, for your great comments.

____________________

Shadow_Assassin (The Savannah Way  n.b.: S_A has closed it, but it's well worth a read):  You speculated on 9/27 

A conspirancy, perhaps?quote>

I've had some trouble with ImageShack recently in connection with uploads (I seem to do a lot of those- wonder why?) breaking, but otherwise that site's service seems great...

...crossing all fingers, toes, arms, and legs...

...and there's every hope that it will stay that way.  I have noticed, from time to time, some slowness in pics showing up, but I always attributed that to Internet connection speed or quality issues.  After a while, if the pics don't load, the page will stop trying to fetch them and note "Done" (at least in IE6, anyway UPDATE: in Firefox, too) down in the lower right-hand corner, even though it's not.  In that event, I usually can fetch the pics manually by right-clicking on the space where they should appear, and then selecting "Show Picture."  I note here that, when I insert a pic in 3RR I always fill out the "Width" and "Height" pixel values in the "Image Properties" dialog box, so you should always see plenty of white space when the pics don't show up.  If this continues to be an issue (for you or anyone else reading this) please let me know.

We're all watching for Ensenada.

____________________

Daniel (tchaos713 - Ballet Fan Club):  You exclaimed on 9/26 

I missed four pages of updates, some stupid school administrators (what's that I hear about people rising to the level of their incompetance?), and one important birthday! quote>

Hey, Daniel...if you had asked me in advance whether you should go on vacation or stick around to read 3RR updates, I would have been flattered but had serious reservations as to your sanity.  This CJ isn't going anywhere- wherever you go- have some fun for me, too.  Thanks for the B-day wishes- I've got a whole bunch of PMs composed (in my head, of course) to all the various well-wishers (awww, shucks- wasn't like I had to take a test to turn 54 or anything).  You think you're late...I am the Master of Lateness.  You are absolved.

____________________

threestooges:  On 9/26, you recommended

I would say don't worry about the scale thing and make it what you wantquote>

and then kindly noted

As far as this being a learning experience, I certainly wouldn't consider it to be a failurequote>

From the get-go, I've tried to make it clear that what I'm doing in 3RR is not about the way to play SC4.  It's about the way I play SC4-.  That's one of the great aspects of the game.  I like freeways?  I can have freeways up the gazoo.  You (all of you, not just threestooges) like skyscrapers?  Or farms?  Or airports?  You can have them to your heart's content.  In SC4, everyone can be Captain Picard [ linkie ]- just a "Make It So!" away from whatever it is that you want.

Your advice, threestooges, about not letting perfectionism stop one from moving forward is really important.  I look at a lot of CJs- I see folks do stuff that I regard very highly, and then I see comments from others reading the CJ who've looked at the same thing and say, "I could never do that in a million years" or "Next to yours, my city looks like a pile of elephant dung" or some such.  Only my sense of civility (and, to be honest, fear of angry PMs from the CJer whose thread I would be sullying) stops me from commenting back, "Hey, this isn't a contest.  Do your own thing and be proud of it!  No whining!"  SC4 is not about everyone reaching some objectively identifiable ideal in urban design, transport layout, terraforming, mapping, or any other aspect.  In fact, that's probably what makes it a great game.  You set your own standards and goals.  You can play it straight or cheat without fear of suffering the judgement of others.  If you don't like something, you can tear it down and do something else.  If you like it pink, it can be pink.  At the end of the day, you don't have to take anyone's opinion into account but your own.  You don't have to produce anything worthwhile to justify the time spent.  There's probably a pretty good definition of recreation somewhere in all that...

I learned in pursuing the law as a career that, at some point, you just have to submit the brief.  Another hour's work might improve it some, another day's effort would almost certainly make it better, and it would be better still if you spent another week on it.  Time itself, though, not to mention your client's wallet, will run out long, long before the brief even approaches "perfect."

...nature, on the other hand...

...gets it right...

...every time...

So, I don't plan to let the quest for perfection stop me from enjoying SC4, or bring 3RR to a premature end.  Maybe, in the end, it's like Nietzsche [ linkie ] said

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.quote>

There you go- getting scale right will make 3RR better...that's the ticket!

On 9/28, threestooges, you followed up

I wouldn't want to see you scrap the whole thing though, as there has been some significant progress made. Perhaps, expand the region, or forgo the original "master plan" in favor of some realistic urban/rural redesign.quote>

I'll take those ideas up today (9/30/06) in the continuation of the update.  Many thanks for your insight and encouragement, and as well for noting 3RR in your sig.

...[ blush ]...awww, shucks...

____________________

Daniel (tchaos713 - Ballet Fan Club):  Apropos of nothing other than your nic, another great Nietzsche quote:

You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.quote>

 

Man, I don't know.  Nietzsche, huh?  This CJ thing knows no bounds...

...Kull-cha.  Kull-cha.  Get-cha Kull-cha right here, folks...

Far better still, go see Daniel perform in the Louisville Ballet [ linkie ].

____________________

Gaston:  On 9/25, you complained

ever try typing with a cat sitting on you left hand and arm.     TRUST ME it ain't easyquote>

Ahhh, the challenges we face in recreating...

____________________

I'll wrap this post up with

Owen (owenluby - Unifire):  On 9/25, you suggested the Melway map [ linkie ] as a style I might consider.  You are absolutely right to hold it in such high regard (IMHO, anyway).  It's clean and clear, and has a great deal of unique character.

A good thing about the maps I've been creating with Paint Shop Pro is that they are done in a way that lets me modify them easily.  I converted my region map to the "Google" map style in about half an hour, and will definitely tweak it further to bring it even closer in appearance.  I plan, at some point, a tutorial on 3RR map creation, but am still, as you know, working out where I want my mapping efforts to wind up.

So many plans, so little time... 

____________________

So, we've reached the end of a post that has spanned five days.  Thanks for bearing with me.  I hope you enjoy the continuation of this update, which is here [ linkie ].  n.b. Link will work sometime on 9/30/06 when the continued post is up.  UPDATE: (10-3-06) All done- it works.

(9/25/06)  Hey, I've run out of time before having to leave for the office.  I'll pick this back up with the remaining responses in a bit.  Please check back if you see this message for the rest.

UPDATE:  (9-28-06  3:15 p.m. AST)  Well, I've done a few more responses between clients, judges and other emergencies.  Leaving to take Josh (the seven year old) off to an appointment.  Back to finish up later.

UPDATE2:  (9-29-06  7:55 a.m. AST)  Later , in this case, means later later.  In the office early this morning to complete drafting a complaint and some other stuff.  I plan to have some dedicated 3RR time this evening, so thanks for checking back.

UPDATE3:  (9-30-06  7:15 a.m. AST)  Done.  Finished.  Finito.  Basta!  No mas. 

I'll leave you with some more RL Alaska eye candy.  This pic...

...ROCKS!

Later.

[Gaston 0]

David,

     Thanks so much for the links to Kotzebue, Alaska: 

(I lived and worked in Kotzebue, Alaska (go to Nome, turn right, head north just past the Arctic Circle) [ linkie ] for about four years in the early 1990s.quote>

   And to the atutak:

As regards akutak (Eskimo ice cream),Here's a linkie for those who would want (dare, actually) to know more,Eskimo Ice Cream [ linkie ]quote>

    I really liked the article.  Sounds yummy doesn't it.   NOT    I suppose I would try it; If I had the chance.   But to make it myself, I don't think so.    Besides how would you know if you did it wrong.   LOL   

Thanks for seeing fit to make it here, and for your ongoing interest in 3RR.quote>

    I was pleased to be able to make this the place for my 100th post.   I wouldn't have had it any other way.   I have found a home of sorts here.    Thanks again for sharing everything with us.     BTW, that pic of rocks really ROCKS dude.

   Have a great evening.   (I think my time difference calculator in my head is right).

---Gaston

[sorchin 18]

Really lovely pics David of the river. I love to walk by rivers and streams up by my place. It's very peaceful.

San Fran would be a great city to create in the game. Hopefully someone will/

Take care my friend...

[bat 6]

Nice picture!

bat

[Nik-nik 3]

Nice picture David.

Have a great weekend!!

Nik-Nik

[Rayden 7]

I know this post and my PM is going to catch on your 40 min comute time, and then a very busy day at work, but by the time you're back home I'm on my sleep already, so, I have to do it now. Great pics of Alaska, and those river boulds, that exactly what I'm looking for Gizmo's, Goldiva's and Jeronij's aren't enough, I also use yours but still need more options

Have a nice day, and don't work too hard

[ElBarto92 7]

D'oh! Double Post. Sorry...

[ElBarto92 7]

Heya, David, long time-no post. Sorry 'bout that. Some great stuff you've had here over the last few pages - lemme see if I can recap.. First you posted a City Life screenshot, and I must agree that it doesn't look that great (beer mugs and felt may very well be in those disks' futures). I also loved how after you posted about how crummy the game was, several commentors quickly responded with how great it looked. I guess that's what 3RR has done - you can just come in here and automatically assume that everything looks great. Next you had all sorts of mapping shots, all very interesting (I think I might just start getting back into SC4 and doing some mapping), and then you had some more technical mumbo-jumbo on mapping, which, although I didn't catch it all, looked pretty good. In between it all, you had some great pics of Alaska (must be a great place to live, although I despise the cold...I'm comfortable right here in Miami's 90 degree, 80% humidity autumn weather). All in all, a great couple of pages. I'll try to keep up, but I've got all sorts of school stuff and whatnot I'm trying to get done. Anywho, until next time..

-Andr

[Tommy_Vercetti3 3]

ROCKS AHOY!

[hamsterTK 93]

awesome, im very familiar with houston so that overlay let me perfectly interpret the real size of 3RR and yeah, thats a lot of freeways

[capitol1 1]

Is their a chance of future devolopment??

EDIT:Welcome to page 32 btw..

[dedgren 830]

Just letting everyone know that I finished up the post on the previous page that I've been adding to over the past week.  You can jump to it here [ linkie ].  I'm also working (as of 7:30 a.m. AST) on the continuation of the ongoing mapping update, which I hope to have up later this morning.

Have a great weekend!

Later.

[jacqulina 162]

beautifull pics david i do love the stream with the rocks,all your pics are very pretty

[bat 6]

fantastic picture!

bat

[threestooges 0]

I just got back from my LSAT (bring back memories?) and I get greeted with 3RR landscapes. Definitely worth the 5+ hours of "bubbling." You said it quite well in that

At the end of the day, you don't have to take anyone's opinion into account but your own.  You don't have to produce anything worthwhile to justify the time spent. quote>

but boy have you (your tutorials  say it all). I like the dedication you show (and the fact that you do it for the joy of it). Let's hear it for Nature and Nietzsche.

[Darmok 34]

I was looking for something to go with that majestic picture, and I find  this:

THE MOUNTAIN sat upon the plain   

In his eternal chair,   

His observation omnifold,   

His inquest everywhere.   

 

The seasons prayed around his knees,

Like children round a sire:   

Grandfather of the days is he,   

Of dawn the ancestor

Emilly Dickinson - 1830-86

Thanks for the pic!

PS. I wonder if we could find a cave with Smaug in it....in this mountain of yours...

[Gaston 0]

You know David, there are days I really am very jealous of you and where you live.  LOL 
Thanks for finishing the mega multi day update.     Have a great day and an even better tomorrow.

---Gaston

[SpecialEddie 3]

Ah, you're scenic pictures of Alaska...*sits down on relaxing chair* Makes me reconsider if LA/Orange County is that beautiful.



[sarcasm] Los Angeles: Nature At It's Finest [/sarcasm]

[asturianu 4]

Hey, nice mountain, David! Is it located near Anchorage, or near Denali Park?

[north country dude 202]

I have to say that I'm not really a CJ lurker, but yours' is really cool looking. Chock full of ideas and tutorials.

Why don't I view more CJ's?, because I have a slower-than-snail dial up connection and no hope of ever getting DSL- too rural. *sighs*

But your TOC really helps and the Modds links are also very helpful, now if I could only get the pictures to finish loading before the page says "Done". (stoopid browser, your not done, ya still got six more pictures to finish...stoopid browser, stoopid dial-up,...aack thhbbbt!)

Anyway, great work!

ncd/Arf

[edit] Yea!! Thanks for that hint on how to get the pictures to finish loading, even in Firefox. Yea!

[dedgren 830]

So, back again...

We left off our ongoing update [ linkie ] by last looking a side-by-side comparison between a Google map of Houston, Texas and a map I've created in that style of 3RR.

Each is at the same scale, and it is clear, if nothing else, that the 3RR freeway network is far more "dense" (in terms of miles of roadway per comparable unit of area measurement) than that of RL Houston, which is among the most freeway dense cities in the United States.  I concluded that this meant that 3RR, as I have currently laid it out, is "far, far too compressed as a matter of realistic scale."

Here's another comparison.

This is 3RR with the township (game "cities") outline overlayed on it.

Here is the comparable scale Houston map with the same overlay.

From those two maps, here's Grand Lake Township right next to the same area in Houston.

I think it's pretty clear that, at the very start of this region, I made a fundamental goof.

So, setting aside for the moment the question of what it is we should do about this, let's take the opportunity to figure out a little more clearly what I was shooting for in the first place.

As I said in the previous part of this update, I envisioned Three Rivers Region as being

...an urban "core" area of about 5 miles on each side (the original four (SC4 large city) townships of Pineshore, Wind River, Cold Lake and Grand Lake) surrounded by farms, woodlands and other open space...quote>

So what does such a place look like in the real world, as I clearly have a wildly inaccurate picture in my head?  For that, let's travel to the state of Illinois, where I grew up in the western suburbs of Chicago.

My boyhood home was in Downers Grove, a "bedroom" suburb (the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy line split the town east-to-west) about 20 miles west of Chicago's loop.  Here's a Google map at the same 10 mile by 10 mile scale as the ones we've been looking at.

  

I note that, according to the 2005 U. S. Census Bureau Estimates published by the Northern Illinois Planning Commission [ linkie ], the population of this completely urbanized area was close to a quarter million people.

Burr Ridge		10949
Clarendon Hills		8397
Darien		22730
Downers Grove		49094
Glen Ellyn		27193
Hinsdale		17898
Lisle		23376
Lombard		42816
Oakbrook Terrace		2249
Westmont		24863
Willowbrook		8893
Woodridge		34058
Total Area		227509

 

This figure isn't precise, as it simply adds together the populations of the suburbs that appear on the map (Glen Ellyn is the only one that isn't named- it would be the area under the arrows in the upper left corner), but it gives us a pretty good idea of what a 3RR size (100 square miles) region of more or less uniform medium density suburban residential development would have population-wise.

Think about that a minute...  If you've ever been to Chicago's western 'burbs in the last 20 years, you know that there is very little land left undeveloped between the Tri-State Tollway (I-294) and the Fox River between Oswego and Elgin.

The farmland still started immediately to the south and west of Downers when I lived there in the 1950s and 60s.  No longer.

It's funny, though.  If you divide the 100 square miles into its equivalent in large townships (large cities in the game), you wind up with 16 of them.  Dividing the roughly quarter million people by 16, you get about 15,000 folks in each 2.5 mile by 2.5 mile game city.  My experience is that using the game medium residential zoning to develop most of a large city (assuming the other constraints are met) will result in a population many (at least 10-20) times that.

So I'll conclude that the game engine does not "do" major RL city suburbia well (at least on its own, but that's a topic for a whole 'nother post).

And, in any event, that wasn't where I was headed anyway...

...oh, you awful tease, you...

I'll pick this back up.

Later.

[owenluby 1]

Urghhh! So close to finish but yet so far!

Take your time