Is there anyway to make new lots other than to use beginner-unfredndly and outdated tools such as Gmax.

[king_tika1 0]

Is there any way to create lots other than to use oudated BAT and Gmax?
Gmax Discontinued

[rsc204 21,857]

What are you actually trying to do? If you want to make 3D models there are no shortcuts, it’s got quite a learning curve due to the complexity of making models, understanding geometry and textures etc.

But if all you want to do is customise or make new Plop/Grow lots using existing objects, PIM-X is the place to start. The current download includes a full PDF guide with step by step instruction for using it. 

[Peter_One 1]

On 4/2/2024 at 6:10 PM, king_tika1 said:

Is there any way to create lots other than to use oudated BAT and Gmax?
Gmax Discontinued

why are you trying to use specifically gmax?

use 3ds max: https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/74718-bat-getting-started-guide-faq-resources-help/?do=findComment&comment=1687910

[Peter_One 1]

If you need to download gmax itself, here is the direct link:

https://community.simtropolis.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=95601

And this is the workaround to register it:

https://community.simtropolis.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=95602

[kaimai 1,066]

2 hours ago, Peter_One said:

use 3ds max: https://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/74718-bat-getting-started-guide-faq-resources-help/?do=findComment&comment=1687910

3ds max 2017 and earlier are apparently no longer available for free/cheap, while newer versions don't work with the BAT because they use a different rendering engine or something. This may also be part of why a lot of BAT modellers left the community (they couldn't afford to purchase an older version).

I'm not sure how much of the difficulty in learning gmax is the learning curve of the software and how much is the learning curve of 3D modelling itself (understanding polygons and meshes and etc)

[Peter_One 1]

47 minutes ago, kaimai said:

3ds max 2017 and earlier are apparently no longer available for free/cheap, while newer versions don't work with the BAT because they use a different rendering engine or something. This may also be part of why a lot of BAT modellers left the community (they couldn't afford to purchase an older version).

I'm not sure how much of the difficulty in learning gmax is the learning curve of the software and how much is the learning curve of 3D modelling itself (understanding polygons and meshes and etc)

gmax is just a slimmed down version. made for games and modding.

download it and try it out. just follow the guides here for saving for bats . I'm sure you can find plenty of tutorials online for gmax itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzvwA6t2oeI&list=PLx9czwv6uIUzPYsCy8vCLLN9u-_gjRMZw

actually you could probably look at some 3ds max tutorials and apply some of it to gmax as well. Pretty similar if im not mistaken..

I've only dabbled in 3d modeling myself, but I'm sure with some time and patience you can learn enough to make something.

[madhatter106 3,912]

Little ol' gmax may be "oudated," but I manage to do okay with it, even after all these long years...
As mentioned and linked above, it's still available and usable, even though it isn't supported.

[Tarkus 6,933]

7 hours ago, kaimai said:

3ds max 2017 and earlier are apparently no longer available for free/cheap, while newer versions don't work with the BAT because they use a different rendering engine or something. This may also be part of why a lot of BAT modellers left the community (they couldn't afford to purchase an older version).

Yup, Autodesk changed over to the Arnold engine a few years ago, and to date, no one's managed to make a BAT4MAX plugin that works for it.  It has indeed been a huge issue for BAT modellers--the sentiment I've heard (both publicly and privately) from some of them is that being forced to go from 3ds Max back to Gmax was not something they could stomach. 

The vast majority of the SC4 content creators who were using 3ds Max were on Autodesk's education licensing program, which had been designed such that hobbyists also had access, and previously allowed free 3-year licenses (but only on the two most recent versions of the software, IIRC).  Autodesk also imposed a lot more restrictions on that program in recent years, so that's pretty much killed the BAT4MAX scene, and is likely a major reason why no one has developed an Arnold-compatible version yet.

The only other alternative to Gmax has been in the form of sporadic attempts to create a BAT Plugin for the open-source modeling program Blender.  An early version was offered for download in 2019, on the old SC4 Devotion thread on the project (there's a GitHub for it here), and IIRC, there was even a building made with it that was released on the LEX.  However, aside from ohdude attempting to get ChatGPT to do something with it earlier today, there hasn't really been anything done with it since.

-Tarkus

[Peter_One 1]

@Tarkus @kaimai @king_tika1

Well apparently after finding a way to get older version of 3ds max, it was difficult just getting things to work at all on modern systems..

I just spent far too much time trying to get this to work with 3ds max 9 and 2009.

Installing them was difficult on windows 11. Then once I did install, there apparently are issues with mental ray on each version trying to run on Windows 11. Instant crashing on open.

Compatibility settings do nothing. Removing mental ray from plugins got me in on one version. But then when trying to install Bat4Max it had further issues. Could not get it to show up anywhere in 3ds max. I'm also thinking not having mental ray may impact some features.

This entire process is a mess. I do not think I'll be able to use 3ds max. Only thing left to try is 3ds max 2017, but I'm having difficulty obtaining it..

I'm afraid the Bat creation scene is dead on SC4 because of these issues on modern systems and difficulty obtaining the proper software in working condition...

We simply need a new SimCity or a HD remaster with updated support from EA.. or an OpenSC from the community like RCT has...
 

I got gmax to work, but I'm afraid some things won't be possible or difficult. Is everything in gmax capable, such as night lights & reflections of building glass?

Any features missing that are only available in 3ds? It's such an old dog..

 

[Peter_One 1]

and I can't use gmax either now... This video glitch occurs everytime I right click...

and a little later, the screen went black inside gmax and I got this error..:

[JulioC 2,581]

On 02/04/2024 at 10:10 PM, king_tika1 said:

Is there any way to create lots other than to use oudated BAT and Gmax?
Gmax Discontinued

Well, it's not recommended, but you can model with Google SketchUp, do 99% of the job there, export it as a .3ds file and open it on gmax only to make the textures show up, create the LOD, etc and export it to the game

This is not a tutorial, but you can see some exemples here:

 

1 hour ago, Peter_One said:

@Tarkus @kaimai @king_tika1

Well apparently after finding a way to get older version of 3ds max, it was difficult just getting things to work at all on modern systems..

I just spent far too much time trying to get this to work with 3ds max 9 and 2009.

Installing them was difficult on windows 11. Then once I did install, there apparently are issues with mental ray on each version trying to run on Windows 11. Instant crashing on open.

Compatibility settings do nothing. Removing mental ray from plugins got me in on one version. But then when trying to install Bat4Max it had further issues. Could not get it to show up anywhere in 3ds max. I'm also thinking not having mental ray may impact some features.

This entire process is a mess. I do not think I'll be able to use 3ds max. Only thing left to try is 3ds max 2017, but I'm having difficulty obtaining it..

I'm afraid the Bat creation scene is dead on SC4 because of these issues on modern systems and difficulty obtaining the proper software in working condition...

We simply need a new SimCity or a HD remaster with updated support from EA.. or an OpenSC from the community like RCT has...
 

I got gmax to work, but I'm afraid some things won't be possible or difficult. Is everything in gmax capable, such as night lights & reflections of building glass?

Any features missing that are only available in 3ds? It's such an old dog..

 

gmax can't export buildings with Dark Night, only the Maxis Night. It also can't recreate those reflections on glass you see in many buildings here on STEX, like these

I only create small BATs, so gmax do the trick for me, but of course this may be a problem to other people

Regarding the gmax glitch, I can't help you with that, sorry.

[Tarkus 6,933]

On 4/7/2024 at 7:41 PM, Peter_One said:

and I can't use gmax either now... This video glitch occurs everytime I right click...

and a little later, the screen went black inside gmax and I got this error..:

In my experience, if you happen to have another program open that is using Direct3D, or that tends to be graphically/GPU-focused (even something like having Google Maps/Streetview open in a browser window at the same time), that can be the cause of errors like that.

On 4/7/2024 at 7:14 PM, Peter_One said:

We simply need a new SimCity or a HD remaster with updated support from EA.. or an OpenSC from the community like RCT has...

More than anything, what we simply need is to develop better tools and ways of working that can do what we need in 2024--that's the one thing that is in our control at this point in time, and more feasible than those other scenarios.  What EA does or (more likely) does not do is out of our control right now, and--this is perhaps an unpopular opinion--given how all the OpenSC4 efforts have gone, I think simply working with what we have has a much higher probability of yielding positive results.

The way we've gone from only having a couple major DLL mods (one of which was actually an internal Maxis tool that they permitted Buggi to release) to the explosion of absolute game-changers we've gotten over the past six months speaks to that, and knowing the internal rumblings, the DLL modding scene is really just at the tip of the iceberg at this point.  IMHO, someone fixing up BAT4Blender,  finding creative solutions like the Sketchup method, or what justforfun has a proven track record of doing (which is actually optimal for the 3D Camera DLL-era) are the most likely viable ways to get us out of the BAT doldrums.

-Tarkus

[madhatter106 3,912]

Regarding the black screen and the pop-up message, I find that it will happen when I walk away from the computer for a period of time and my screen saver kicks in.  When I return to revive my laptop, gmax will do this.  I close the pop-up, go back into the program, hit "W" a couple of times, and it will get back to brass tacks.  Sometimes afterwards, it refuses to show my vertices when I look at modifiers on objects, or it shrinks them so small that I can't see them highlighted in red to select them.  In this case, I just close gmax and reload.

I also get the pop-up in situations like @Tarkus mentioned before me - things like toggling back and forth between gmax and Google Earth will throw a wrench into gmax every now and then.  I have also found that if I load gmax, then load an older version of Photoshop sometime afterwards, it will create the same pop-up situation.  Something in my little system doesn't like to share with gmax; but if the worst thing that happens is I have to close and reload gmax, that is an easy enough fix, despite whatever is causing it.

[Panda 209]

I'll jump in and add my 2 cents. I'm exploring BAT creation myself. I'm no stranger to 3D modeling, but I've never created custom BATs until a few weeks ago.

As far as I know, right now Gmax is your only option for the final rendering and BAT creation. With Gmax, you are limited to its older rendering engine, so no raytracing, global illumination,  PBR materials, or any other rendering advancements in the last 20 years. Additionally, I recall seeing a post indicating that some of the elements in the Gmax BAT tool don't work correctly, such as bump maps. With that limitation however, it is still possible to make perfectly passable buildings using the Gmax renders. You may have to be a little strategic about how you model and texture, some effects just won't be possible with Gmax.

The workflow that I've been using is to model in Blender first, then export to Gmax for the final render. I'm currently using blender 4.0. Reading back it looks like the initial experiments to create a BAT4Blender plugin were back when 2.8 was very new. It seems like Blender has come a long way since then, for example, Blender does support exporting a 3ds file. My initial 3ds export test worked fine and showed up in Gmax. However, objects are limited to 8 characters otherwise the import will fail. Also, the 3ds format has some other limitations on file size I believe.

What I have also done is work around the problem by exporting as an .obj file instead. I found some post, I think here on Simtropolis, which eventually let me to an import script on an old Battle for Middle Earth mod site (script direct download). I only use the "Wavefront OBJ Import" portion of the script, the "OBJ Import/Export" script seemed to crash when I ran it. However, that seems to be enough to render for the BAT. You might also run into the following error: "Runtime Error: Out of scripter memory- use options to increase". Gmax limits the scripting memory available, so you have to manually increase it. You can type in "heapsize += 10000000" where 10000000 is the amount of bytes to increase by. This will allow you to import larger models, but you will have less memory available for the rest of Gmax's functions. You also can't decrease the heapsize. Reloading Gmax will set the assigned memory to default. You could also add the command to a startup script so the memory is always available. It is an inelegant solution, but works ... kind of... If the model is too large, Gmax will have trouble importing, but you can split up the model and import it in pieces.

I also encountered the graphics glitch when right clicking. While I don't know if there is a way to fix the problem from occurring in the first place, I did find a workaround without having to restart Gmax. If you change your screen resolution and then revert the change, the glitch disappears. Mostly I try not to right click. Not a great solution I know, but since I'm mostly using Gmax to export BATs and not to model, it helps if I accidentally do right click. I occasionally get the Direct3D message, mostly when I swap to another application. It seems to go away for me when I return focus to Gmax.

I'm sure I'm not alone in being interested in a BAT4Blender tool.  To my mind, for SC4 modding to stay alive, there has to be a viable way to create new BATS. The Gmax BAT is something like 20 years old and has some serious limitations. Yes it is a functional tool and still performs those same functions today. There are just none of the niceties and improvements of a more modern software. Autodesk works on the subscription model and has drastically changed their student licensing model, severely limiting the availability of their products. That and the lack of a BAT4MAX compatible with any version later than 3DS MAX 2017 seems like it is a dead end at least for SC4 modding. Since Blender is free and open source, it is of course much easier to obtain. Additionally, if some future BAT4Blender plugin relies on some specifics that change in later blender releases, it will always be possible to continue using a previous release. Now I know there is a huge gulf between wanting or supporting something and actually making that happen. I’m no programmer, so it’s easy to say it would be nice for someone to make this, but it’s a whole lot of work to actually make that happen. Despite my ignorance, I’m happy to help however I can to make Blender a feasible replacement for Gmax and BAT4Max.

[Panda 209]

Also, if you are using Gmax, you will likely want the HD export scripts. This gives you the option of rendering in "SD" (Zoom 5 is rendered at 1:1 pixel resolution and Zoom 6 is just zooming in) or rendering in "HD" (Zoom 5 is rendered at x2 the size so when in game, Zoom 6 is actually viewed at 1:1 resolution while Zoom 5 is shown at half resolution.) The HD resolution is great for small props or lots, but does increase the render time and .sc4model filesize significantly. Also, while it makes the highest zoom look very crisp, my understanding is it can introduce some minor graphic issues at Zoom 5 since the game is having to resample the images down. Fortunately, you can toggle which export you want to use depending on use case and your preference.

There is also some information on adding true anti-aliasing to the Gmax renders. You can find more information here.

[Peter_One 1]

Yes... we need some kind of modern solution to get out of gmax. The lack of features and buggyness make it too torturous working in..

BAT4Blender is the solution. Otherwise we just wait for a new game..

And I don't have any interest in soul-less Skylines 2... lol

 

[madhatter106 3,912]

20 hours ago, Peter_One said:

Yes... we need some kind of modern solution to get out of gmax. The lack of features and buggyness make it too torturous working in..

BAT4Blender is the solution. Otherwise we just wait for a new game..

And I don't have any interest in soul-less Skylines 2... lol

 

And yet I have managed to get along just fine with "torturous" gmax well enough since late 2008.
And buggy though it might be, it is infinitely more useable at the moment (and in perpetuity, so it seems) than BAT4Max.
So people can continue to rag on gmax all they might, but I can produce a BAT with it today and post it on the STEX; the same cannot be said for BAT4Max.

[Jasoncw 11,940]

I would have had an updated BAT4Max out a few years ago, but I ran into a problem which I really have no idea what to do about. Even though it's using the same camera, and even though everything relevant in the scripts is renderer agnostic, the renders with Arnold do not have the same zoom and framing as the renders from Mental Ray, Scanline, and VRay.

Otherwise, I've made a new lighting rig and default rendering settings which imo look great. It's a mix between the current BAT4Max lighting and the Gmax lighting, so it should sit nicely with content from both. But it doesn't have the super bright cyan sky that the current BAT4Max lighting does, and also the lighting quality in Arnold is much much better. Overall it should be much easier to make better looking BATs. I also have planned a revamped interface for the BAT4Max buttons which should be more user friendly.

Hitting the dead end with the render framing issue, I decided to go through and remove as much unused code as possible. The history of the code is that it started as the scripts that Maxis used with 3ds Max. Then they adapted that for Gmax. Then that got adapted back for 3ds Max with BAT4Max. And then several versions of BAT4Max have changed things. So the vast vast majority of code in the BAT4Max scripts isn't actually used, but it's still all tied together. I've untangled quite a bit of it, with the goal being that if it was presentable enough, someone with experience with this kind of stuff could just casually look through it and see what the problem is. But on my end, I haven't worked on it for a while because I'm busy making BATs.

So if anyone has experience with Maxscript and wants to take a look at it, send me a message. Once the framing issue is solved, the rest can progress pretty quickly.

[Rott 2,351]

Gmax is kind of like a Toyota from 2004, very basic and might have a wee bit of a breakdown here and there, but it has longevity and it will get you there eventually.

[rsc204 21,857]

9 hours ago, madhatter106 said:

So people can continue to rag on gmax all they might, but I can produce a BAT with it today and post it on the STEX; the same cannot be said for BAT4Max.

I started out with gMax and moved up to 3DS Max and the difference is night and day. For starters the application is more stable, can take advantage of my hardware and has a number of features that make creation of models easier. Despite the drawback that I find texturing much harder, I could never go back, I think that’s been a problem for many modellers.

Of course none of this takes away the fact that gMax is still usable or that the end results actually fit better in-game with the default content. We’re all doing different things and have different needs, that’s no bad thing to have options. Which is the problem here, we’ve lost options and gMax is flawed in 2024. If you are rendering skyscrapers or highly detailed Flora, gMax simply can’t handle that like 3DS Max can.

No disrespect to JasonCW, but for my money the best solution is to make scripts for Blender. Because even should you resolve the issues with an updated BAT4Max script, eventually the changing nature of 3DS Max means we need to continue supporting the scripts for it or we risk ending up back where we are again. However, once we have a working version of scripts for Blender, like gMax, we should have no problems downloading a specific version of Blender that it works with into the future. In this sense it’s a more beneficial solution since it solves the problem once and for all. Not to mention freeing people from the cost or complications of accessing 3DS Max.

There is another factor though, the amount of learning you need to invest to get familiar with 3DS Max, well those skills don’t transfer well to Blender. I can see a scenario where an updated BAT4Max script would bring back a lot of previous creators. But Blender support will not because most won’t want to re-learn everything. I know I’ll stop making models before I use Blender personally. If gMax were my only option it would radically alter what models I might be prepared to work on.

I suppose then the best solution is to have choices for BATing, this will result in more content being created.

[Jasoncw 11,940]

Blender is still missing a lot of very basic things which might not be necessary for other purposes, but for us it makes things very hard. For example, it doesn't have a basic box (or plane, etc.) uvw map. So you can't just apply a uvw map modifier to an object and give the uvw map the dimensions of the texture, and have everything be perfectly and non-destructively applied. You have to unwrap the object and then manually try to fit the texture correctly there. There's a bunch of other things too. Someone who started with Blender won't know what they're missing, but no one else will be able to bear spending 10 minutes doing a very common task that normally takes literally 10 seconds.

But still it would be wonderful if a BAT4Blender were made/completed.

For 3ds Max, there isn't an issue with Max itself changing. Maxscript hasn't really changed much over the years, and afaik, the older versions of BAT4Max that use the Scanline renderer should still work just fine on any version of Max. BAT4Max is generally renderer agnostic. Changing from one renderer to another should only be a matter of changing a few lines of code here and there to change the settings for rendering and lights to the ones used by the other renderer. We really got unlucky with whatever this issue is with Arnold.

[king_tika1 0]

I installed gmax and Im running MRT right now ( MIcrosoft Malware Removal Tool) Just to be sure.

[rsc204 21,857]

On 08/04/2024 at 4:41 AM, Peter_One said:

and I can't use gmax either now... This video glitch occurs everytime I right click...

and a little later, the screen went black inside gmax and I got this error..:

Better to switch to the HEIDI (software) renderer as the DirectX implementation is ancient and unlikely to be supported by your modern hardware. This won’t impact performance any, since a modern CPU can more than handle the workload.

https://www.fsdeveloper.com/wiki/index.php/GMax:_FAQs