Help with Mac traffic issues

[simster007 371]

Hi Community,

what can cause all commercial buildings showing low customers? Got a lot of streets/ roads ave´s used by thousands of commuters but commercial stays on "low".

It normally should change to medium/ high by some hundreds of commuters, is that right?

Is it maybe the NAM running on Ultra capacity to avoid struggling with congestions? Do I have to increase the customer/ traffic noise factor in the TSCT?

 

Thx for your replies!

[matias93 7,535]

It's probably the Ultra level on the Traffic Simulator. It shouldn't be a problem of itself, but you can change it to a lower level if you want to get more congestion.

[CorinaMarie 29,607]

3 hours ago, simster007 said:

what can cause all commercial buildings showing low customers? Got a lot of streets/ roads ave´s used by thousands of commuters but commercial stays on "low".

The game sees things in Tracts of 4 x 4 cells which can make odd things happen such as thousands of cars on an avenue not being seen as high customer counts for one side. To check if you are experiencing a tract related problem, zone a commercial parcel on the opposite side from the one showing low counts and see if that shows high counts.

Basically if one side of a street, road, avenue, etc shows high customer counts for commercial and the other does not, it's because the data is falling in one Tract and not being shared to the adjacent tract.

 

3 hours ago, simster007 said:

It normally should change to medium/ high by some hundreds of commuters, is that right?

I haven't tested for exact numbers, but I believe 800ish is the threshold between medium and high. I know for certain 1000 cars is definitely enough for a high customer count.

 

3 hours ago, simster007 said:

Is it maybe the NAM running on Ultra capacity to avoid struggling with congestions?

There has been at least one well known member stating that congestion is necessary for high customer counts, but in game testing shows it's only the traffic counts which matter. Buses count the same as cars when that option (the default) is set in the TSCT. Freight trucks count half the amount of cars towards customer counts, and pedestrians do not count at all even if adding the option for them to contribute to traffic noise.

 

3 hours ago, simster007 said:

Do I have to increase the customer/ traffic noise factor in the TSCT?

I've never changed it and I've set mine to what I call Double Ultra by selecting the Base Network Capacity of "Ultra" then cranking up the Network Capacity Multiplier to "2.0". With these settings, I still get high customer counts with no trouble at all.

[simster007 371]

@matias93: thx, congestion is not my issue, i know that i can change settingsto get it.

 

@CorinaMarie: thx for your replies, i think it was u dicussing the topic concerning freight trucks here already? Heard about the 4x4 cells as well. Opposite side zoning does not work, i already checked that.Maybe I should set up a test region to work on that issue, it is region wide, everywhere. I think in an old region i once had high customers in a spot next to a completely congested highway, but apart from that i am more or less used to "low" customers since i'm playing SC4....

Commmercials  work, sims are employed and there is no dilapidation or abandonment but it is still sort of annoying....

[monkeywater 910]

For what its worth, you can grow the highest capacity commercial buildings in pedmall zones with no road access and only pedestrian traffic.  They don't dilapidate.  They also get large number of customers.

[CorinaMarie 29,607]

4 hours ago, simster007 said:

i think it was u dicussing the topic concerning freight trucks here already?

I'm sure I have mentioned freight trucks before. There was a separate test I did a couple or three years ago where I determined that they count half as much as cars.

 

4 hours ago, simster007 said:

Maybe I should set up a test region to work on that issue, it is region wide, everywhere.

This is a good idea when something seems to be going wrong for no apparent reason. The more variables you can eliminate, the more likely you'll be able to find the root cause of the trouble.

[matias93 7,535]

On 2/10/2022 at 1:29 PM, monkeywater said:

For what its worth, you can grow the highest capacity commercial buildings in pedmall zones with no road access and only pedestrian traffic.  They don't dilapidate.  They also get large number of customers.

In my experience, it's easier to start with streets or roads, let the lots develop, and then change them to pedmalls. Otherwise is somewhat harder to get enough traffic for the buildings to grow, specially if you zone it all at once.

[simster007 371]

well, as already mentioned i maybe will test that issue in an isolated region. Played SC in the 2000´s when it came out for a couple of years (just vanilla), reactivated it last year due to a lot of free covid restriction time and explored since then this wonderful world of custom plugins....

My commercials NEVER counted many customers on any route showing just hundreds of commuters not in a few spots but all the time everywhere in any postion to traffic routes apart from some single spots as I remember. In some topics here on ST was mentioned that CS does not work with low customers and somewhere (as corinamarie already posted) was described that some hundreds of commuter could shift the value from medium to high. This information made me wondering if was playing a different game.....

I still enjoy building more than testing, but as soon as i got the time i will try to check this in detail in an isolated city tile or maybe in some old regions. Started this topic hoping that maybe someone has a hint: check this setting/ plugin or whatever....

Could my MAC Version be the problem?

Will keep you informed.

[City_Slider 2,716]

5 minutes ago, simster007 said:

Could my MAC Version be the problem?

No Sir, there isnt a different between Mac and Windows.

[CorinaMarie 29,607]

6 hours ago, simster007 said:

Could my MAC Version be the problem?

6 hours ago, City_Slider said:

No Sir, there isnt a different between Mac and Windows.

I hate to disagree with you, Oliver, but yes that could be the difference.

The Mac version is the equivalent of the Windoze version 1.610 (iirc) and so it does not have the two major Maxis patches. (And there's no way to get those patches into it either.)

Now, OTOH, I'm not saying I do know that is the cause of the customer count differences. I'm just saying we prolly should not rule it out as the cause.

[simster007 371]

Actually I'm discussing a different issue in a private conversation which also seems quite strange to me:

Some Stations (Train/ Bus Subway) have much lower capacities in my game.  In Detail in the actaul issue: Capacity should be 85000, Query Tool says 8. Maybe same problem?

@corinamarie: we discussed this MAC Theme in a topic concerning underfund messages wher my game does not stop

I know that the MaC Support is limited but if here is any mac user it would interest me if he/ she could maybe reduplicate any of this issues?

 

[CorinaMarie 29,607]

5 minutes ago, simster007 said:

Some Stations (Train/ Bus Subway) have much lower capacities in my game.  In Detail in the actaul issue: Capacity should be 85000, Query Tool says 8. Maybe same problem?

This is definitely a Mac related bug and is caused by the difference between a Rep count of 0 vs a Rep count of 1 for certain properties. @rsc204 is one of the experts who knows for certain which ones need changed. I believe any which are included as updated capacities in NAM are fixed correctly.

Are the ones where you see that Mac 1/1000 bug custom content?

[rsc204 21,808]

2 hours ago, simster007 said:

Could my MAC Version be the problem?

Oh yes it could, because it does not have the official EP1 patch from Maxis and there is no way to add it either, it could well be a bug Maxis fixed otherwise. I'll take a peek inside my game later and see if I've got the same behaviour and simply never noticed, I must say I don't pay an awful lot off attention to such things, provided my Com is stable I probably wouldn't have noticed.

It's fair to say the base code is the same as the Windows edition, however it's running an emulated DirectX system and further updates were necessary to keep it working after Catalina's 64-bit code requirement. So they aren't the same, even if it's mostly the case that they are, the Mac version has a number of very annoying problems you don't get under Windows too.

2 hours ago, simster007 said:

In some topics here on ST was mentioned that CS does not work with low customers

I think that's probably not right, they do better with Med/High customers, but if I understand it right it mostly just means that CS buildings will end up with more employees as the level increases. But on the flip side, CO buildings really like Low, because customers really means traffic or noise.

So I gotten beaten to the punch by Cori, but indeed this seems to be caused by the lack of said EP1 patch...

Here is one of the busiest (by volume) OWRs in my city, as you can see despite traffic on both sides being quite high, customers are low . A brief check shows every Com having low customers, but it certainly appears Low is all you're gonna get on a Mac.

36 minutes ago, simster007 said:

Some Stations (Train/ Bus Subway) have much lower capacities in my game.  In Detail in the actaul issue: Capacity should be 85000, Query Tool says 8. Maybe same problem?

This is nothing new, it's well known about and actually super-easy to fix, using the Windows-only tool Reader, literally changing a 1 to a 0. See here for a bunch of fixes to that problem, PM me or post if you've got something that's not been fixed and we'll get it sorted for you .

I'll also add, since you aren't getting CTDs, you must be using the old 32-bit version of SC4, not that updating would hold much benefit, but with the update these errors now cause the game to crash when you try to place the affected lots.

[simster007 371]

@rsc204: thx for your quick reaction! As before said: I sort of remember that i had high customers once or twice in small areas in one of my older regions.

Do I understand right that´s nearly impossible an a MAC?

I´ll try to find these spots and send you a pic of that. Could take some days....

Anyway, thx for the response, better to know why things seem to be strange. Actually my Commercials work, I was just wondering what´s going on when i read some postings here and mentioned numbers are so different from what i´m used to in my game.

The Stations theme: Yes that were all custom content lots apart from the NAM. Today I informed Simmer2 about this issue in one of his lots. Did not want to discuss his lots in an open discussion. I try to send him a link to this conversation, that he knows what´s going on. I can´t remember the other stations, just deleted them.....

I try to figure out the reader tool. Can take some days until i have the time. Got an old crab(?) pc here which im just using for sc exe installers... Windows world is not mine.

And Yes: I´m on an old  steam version. My MAC is from 2009 and runs on OS 10.11. Never touch a running a running system.......

Are you one of the few MAC users here?

[rsc204 21,808]

45 minutes ago, simster007 said:

Do I understand right that´s nearly impossible an a MAC?

All I did was quickly poke around one of my larger cities I have on the Mac version, so it's more a case of, generaly-speaking the problem jumps out at you once you start looking for it. For empirical results, it would require a lot more poking around and seeing what is and isn't possible. To my knowledge I don't think anyone's ever brought this issue to light before and I've been paying attention to the forums for a good number of years. So in that context, it's early days to say for certain it's impossible, but it certainly isn't working as I'd expect.

Just for a little background, I started playing in 2012 or so on PC, got seriously into modding the game and have a very broad understanding especially around the technical aspects. I even used a MacMini (late 2009) running Bootcamp as a testing PC for years, without so much as using MacOS on it. Jump to 2020 and the purchase of an iPhone, which led me eventually to switch to using a Mac as my main computer, now a 2012 Mini, so when I saw a sale on Steam, I bought my 3rd copy of SC4. Mostly because I was interested at looking deeper into some of the Mac issues that kept coming up, which were very difficult to help with without being able to see the problems for myself. Using the knowledge from the PC game, I've actually managed to work out a number of things and I'm still poking around to see what's possible and what isn't.

But I will stress, I am not a Mac player, my Mini sits under my monitors nicely, but my footrest is a big tower with an i7, 32GB Ram and a lot of fast storage and if I'm playing SC4, more than likely I'll be playing under Windows. My Mac is great for secure browsing and basic day-to-day computing, but when you've played the PC version as long as I have, the little things really get on your nerves. I've also never been able to get the Mac version running completely stable, something I've never had more than temporary issues, all explainable, using the PC one. So I do use it, but not for my serious SC4 habit.

45 minutes ago, simster007 said:

Today I informed Simmer2 about this issue in one of his lots.

So the tool we use to make TE lots and it's literally the only one we have, is called SC4 Tools. This is where the problem comes from, when you update a TE lot, it saves a certain part of the data with the 1, rather than the correct 0. By the time this was noticed, there was no chance of getting the tool updated and we're kinda stuck with it. This is mostly because something specific to the Mac code, required this to be correct, so anyone using Windows, simply would be oblivious to the issue. There aren't a lot of people making TE stations frankly and usually these days, when someone starts with this kind of modding, they'll get a nudge informing them of the problem and how to fix it. This means that any recent-ish content should be fine, if I had to guess this one slipped the net, it's easy to forget to manually edit this in Reader, for the fourth or fifth time, because you're tweaking things a lot. But certainly knowing Nick, I'm sure he'll have that fixed in no time. But if you notice any others, we can start to fix all the legacy content, but without feedback these things don't happen.

45 minutes ago, simster007 said:

My MAC is from 2009 and runs on OS 10.11. Never touch a running a running system.......

I don't know if that's completely true, my Late 2009 model is now using El Capitan, the last supported OS and it runs well, although I wouldn't do that without an SSD and RAM Upgrade (4GB). But, if you have the NVIDIA GeForce 9400M or whatever Apple was using in yours, not sure about the Early 2009 models there, I have some good news. Assuming you have the HDD space and can get a copy of a Windows XP disk, you can run SC4 natively under Windows via BootCamp, that's exactly what my 2009 Mini was bought to do. But more specifically, the hardware is just a perfect match for SC4, it's old code and can't take advantage of modern systems and runs better under WinXP than modern versions of Windows. It's just in that sweet spot where the game really does run almost as well as it can, like the perfect little SC4 machine. Bear in mind this was before I put the SSD in mine, so that's with a 5400rpm HDD and next to this is an i7 4770 with 16GB RAM running on a fast SSD with a GTX 750ti and performance was remarkably similar, in fact I'd hazard an SSD would bridge that gap somewhat, after all you are still stuck on a SATA2 connection, but it's really an ideal system otherwise.

It's just a suggestion, but it'd be real easy to setup and try, plus your Steam copy means you've access to the Windows version as well if you want, so it's really just a case of finding the XP SP3 install media, this assumes Snow Leopard, sorry not sure which number of OSX that is. I know BootCamp won't install XP on newer versions of OSX, only Win7 which would probably be OK as well. Forget any of the security issues stuff, just don't use the internet under BootCamp, although for very limited use like ST/SC4D for dependencies for example, you'd likely be fine. Especially since the Windows part can't see the Mac part of your system, so in the worst case scenario you'd maybe have to wipe the BootCamp partition under MacOS and start over. I'd imagine you could use TimeMachine or perhaps make a clone of the BootCamp partition, such that you could do a restore with very little effort if needed.

45 minutes ago, simster007 said:

I try to figure out the reader tool. Can take some days until i have the time. Got an old crab(?) pc here which im just using for sc exe installers

I have a VM (VirtualBox) so I can run XP as an Application under MacOS, but that might be a bit overkill, especially if you've access to a PC.

It's really easy, because you don't need to do anything complex to fix this problem, so long as you know which file has it. This post explains the process of fixing the problem, you just need to locate one of two properties, the only ones affected by the TE Bug, the other mentioned issue has a similar fix, but is actually a different problem and doesn't affect the 32-bit Mac version at all.

Essentially it's just the Transit Switch Traffic Capacity and Transit Switch Entry Cost Properties you need to find, then just edit the Rep count from 1 to 0, save and you're done.

[simster007 371]

wow, that was a long response! I spend the last 45min studying the 64bit OS version issues... In 2020 or so I Stumbled over the automatic steam version update to the 64bit version which didn´t run on my system. Luckily I could restore it from Time Machine.

Actually I´m runnning SC4 on a Mid 2009 MACbook on El Capitan (last supported version as mentioned) with exactly the NVIDIA GeForce 9400M, upgraded with an SSD and 8GB RAM. Have to update in the future, but always keep my old machines as backup....

SC4 runs stable and smooth,  single ctd´s concerning the TE lots when being not careful enough. Just loading times and switching views (zone and underground) are awful. Cities bigger than 300.000 are getting really slow.....

I'm a MAC User since 1994 and avoid to use Windows in my private life, so Bootcamp/ Parallels do not exist here until absolutly necessary. My interest in hard/ software is limited, I´m not interested in struggling with windows additionally, the PC I mentioned exists really just for the exe installers....

Additionally I'm no gamer at all, just restarted the good old SC4 in 2020 due to covid restrictions and lots of time in RL . Never used anything apart from Vanilla before and got now 2.75 GB plugins ( plus 2GB that already have been swapped out again...). Until 2020 I didn´t even know that custom content exists and how to use it.

I appreciate very much what you and all the others are doing here and wherever and thx for your your patience with an old nostalgic SC 2000/ 3000/ SC4 fan...

 

3 hours ago, rsc204 said:

It's really easy, because you don't need to do anything complex to fix this problem, so long as you know which file has it. This post explains the process of fixing the problem, you just need to locate one of two properties, the only ones affected by the TE Bug, the other mentioned issue has a similar fix, but is actually a different problem and doesn't affect the 32-bit Mac version at all.

Essentially it's just the Transit Switch Traffic Capacity and Transit Switch Entry Cost Properties you need to find, then just edit the Rep count from 1 to 0, save and you're done.

will check this out soon, thx!

[Cyclone Boom 16,879]

This certainly is an important issue for Mac players, given how the transit enabling Rep value of 1 causes the problem on Macs but not the Windows game.

Just to say...

I've moved all the posts about this into a new topic right where we are now. That way it can continue freely here, instead of the Quick Question thread, which tends to switch onto other subjects at a fast pace. It was fine to ask there of course as you did, so this just consolidates everything neatly in its own home. Anyone searching about this could also more easily find the topic now, and might be more likely to be helped or encouraged to post in here as well.

Mentioning all members here in order of posting:

@simster007  @matias93  @CorinaMarie  @monkeywater  @City_Slider  @rsc204

(You may wish to re-follow the topic using the option in the top right of the page near the title.)

Note to self:
No CB, you don't need to @ mention yourself as you're posting right here to follow this topic right now.

[rsc204 21,808]

9 hours ago, simster007 said:

SC4 runs stable and smooth,  single ctd´s concerning the TE lots when being not careful enough. Just loading times and switching views (zone and underground) are awful. Cities bigger than 300.000 are getting really slow.....

Honestly this is a problem everyone faces at some point, as city and region populations grow, the number of calculations needed to sustain the simulator grows exponentially. Having a modern super-fast CPU doesn't (usually) help, since the game's code isn't optimised for newer hardware. Here, being an Apple user might be of some benefit, it does appear uniquely that the Mac version can take advantage of multi-core systems, unlike under Windows. However, that's a long way from saying it's optimised to take full advantage of them, it's maybe a few % improvement in real terms. Now the faster a single core of your system can do math, the more you can push the game before the inevitable slowness starts. That said, again the difference from a Mobile Core2Duo chip and my i7 4770, which in theory is 150% faster at single core operations, in reality again is only marginally better in the real world. Again, old code simply can't take advantage of new hardware, because it wasn't designed with modern standards in mind.

Switching views gets slow because your computer must refresh everything on display when you go back to the main view. Since you have an SSD, in all likelihood there isn't a lot you can do about this.

9 hours ago, simster007 said:

I'm a MAC User since 1994 and avoid to use Windows in my private life

Windows isn't all that bad, I find getting caught up in the age old Apple vs Windows debate all rather silly, Windows is great at some things, Mac OS excels at others, but neither are perfect and there are sound reasons for going in either direction. But no worries, it was simply a suggestion after all, if you are happy with things as they are, there's nothing wrong with that. My conclusion is that if you aren't doing a lot of modding, then the Mac version's flaws aren't such a big deal. But when you are creating, there really isn't an option to do that on a Mac, so for practical reasons if nothing else, my PC remains for my hobby stuff.

[simster007 371]

4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Here, being an Apple user might be of some benefit, it does appear uniquely that the Mac version can take advantage of multi-core systems, unlike under Windows. However, that's a long way from saying it's optimised to take full advantage of them, it's maybe a few % improvement in real terms.

Interesting, first time I hear about that.

 

4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Windows isn't all that bad, I find getting caught up in the age old Apple vs Windows debate all rather silly, Windows is great at some things, Mac OS excels at others, but neither are perfect and there are sound reasons for going in either direction. But no worries, it was simply a suggestion after all, if you are happy with things as they are, there's nothing wrong with that. My conclusion is that if you aren't doing a lot of modding, then the Mac version's flaws aren't such a big deal. But when you are creating, there really isn't an option to do that on a Mac, so for practical reasons if nothing else, my PC remains for my hobby stuff.

You are totally right, that debate is old and boring and i never wanted to become part oft it, don´t even have enough knowledge to argue. In my case the most important reason is lazyness and a lack of interest in IT Systems. MAC OS is what I'm used to, and it worked always well for me without struggle that´s it. Some many years ago that was a quite expensive and sort of restrictive descision......Let´s stop discussing it.

12 hours ago, Cyclone Boom said:

This certainly is an important issue for Mac players, given how the transit enabling Rep value of 1 causes the problem on Macs but not the Windows game.

Just to say...

I've moved all the posts about this into a new topic right where we are now.

Thx. I was not shure if the issue in itself (without knowing that it might be a Mac Issue) is worth starting a new topic as a greenhorn like me. On the other hand it´s really interesting to notify that there are these Mac issues.... I´m really surprised how quickly all your replies answered my questions - effectively it was one question (low customers) with the dicussion leading to the second (transit station capacity) in one shot - very cool!

[simster007 371]

4 minutes ago, simster007 said:

 I´m really surprised how quickly all your replies answered my questions - effectively it was one question (low customers) with the dicussion leading to the second (transit station capacity) in one shot - very cool!

Quoted myself to underline that you as Windows know about these mac issues. Good Job

[CorinaMarie 29,607]

6 hours ago, simster007 said:

I was not shure if the issue in itself (without knowing that it might be a Mac Issue) is worth starting a new topic as a greenhorn like me.

Feel free to start a new topic when you have a question. If it gets answered in one reply then it's simply a short topic. And if it happens the initial post would actually be better tacked onto an existing topic, staff can do that too. (This mostly happens for posts which ought to go in CFI.)

With a good title for said new topic, I believe it makes it easier for the search engines to index them and offer results which closer match what peep's search for.