Night Lights on Mac

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

Also, btw, the ones that are done, can they be uploaded to the STEX and then put in the Mac compatible tag? https://community.simtropolis.com/tags/mac compatible/

(Edit: oh, wait, I guess I have the ability to do that now, huh? Maybe I should do it for practice? )

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

@c4bl3fl4m3

This one?

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

1 minute ago, CorinaMarie said:

This one?

OMG YES. (It's beautiful, isn't it?)

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

BTW, @CorinaMarie, it probably couldn't hurt to do all the ones in Eternal Rewards (yes, I know, that's a lot), because if you do, I definitely WILL upload that to the STEX & put it in the Mac compatible tag.

Maybe we should go through and figure out a certain number of files that are just simply gorgeous at night and then do them and upload them? Like, the best of nightlighting? Maybe that could be in the next STEX DVD release? A set of Mac nightlight compatible files, the best of nightlights.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

Question about that cathedral. Is there a way to change the spelling error in the name of the church? Could that be uploaded then with the fixed file? Or is that verboten?

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

4 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

BTW, @CorinaMarie, it probably couldn't hurt to do all the ones in Eternal Rewards (yes, I know, that's a lot),

I confess I'll not sign on for the full job.

I'll do the one you've asked for and I'm willing to help explain Robin's process, but beyond that I'll be honest and say: I've got too many other projects in the works to commit to doing the production work for these.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

Just now, CorinaMarie said:

I confess I'll not sign on for the full job.

I'll do the one you've asked for and I'm willing to help explain Robin's process, but beyond that I'll be honest and say: I've got too many other projects in the works to commit to doing the production work for these.

That's absolutely fair.

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

23 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

Is there a way to change the spelling error in the name of the church?

Prolly. Show me where the trouble is and I'll take a peek while I'm under the hood.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

3 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

Prolly. Show me where the trouble is and I'll take a peek while I'm under the hood.

The OMG Iconic Cathedral... the name of it has 2 Hs... "OMG Iconic Cathhedral"

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

This one was a little trickier for me cause all four are smooshed into one file.

I've made this to be an override and by its naming it should work if you drop it in the same folder as the other files from the download. Let me know if it works Macly speaking.

PEG_OMG_Iconic_Cathedral_Mac.dat

[Cyclone Boom 16,875]

2 hours ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

I definitely WILL upload that to the STEX & put it in the Mac compatible tag.

We like the idea of sharing these fixed files with the community, though onto the STEX with the current file distribution policies in place risks it being a free for all. In a way, this is similar to if a friend brought over a file they had downloaded, then asked you to do the editing before taking that edited file back with them.

Instead one possibility might be to have an official topic here in the Mac forum where any fixed versions can all be uploaded. The initial post would contain links to the instructions @rsc204 posted earlier, and then there could be each Mac compatible file attached.

One permissible justification is because all this technically involves is providing an extended compatibility for each item. What the author created remains the same, and the difference is with the TGI values controlling how the internal texture entries are assigned. This is what then allows the Mac game to work with these in displaying the nightlights. The benefit of a dedicated thread is how all the IIDs can be listed too, ensuring full cross-compatibility between versions. As such whoever helps would be providing editing assistance which is perfectly acceptable for each person to do for themselves, but it'd be an organised controlled initiative acting in the best interest of inactive authors.

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

3 hours ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

Maybe we can get it working in Wine

I'm not at all certain if the Wine flavors are the same, but @Handyman wrote this guide for Linux: How to use Wine with SC4D, NAM, Modding Tools and that has a section to Install ILives Reader 1.4.

I presume the same concept would work for Reader 0.9.3 (which is the most stable version of Reader).

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

17 hours ago, rsc204 said:

0x7AB50E44 - 0X1ABE787D - 0X###45678

... 4 is usually 3 when exporting a BAT, in theory we might be able to use other IDs.

I've tested the theory and it seems to work with other digits in position 4. I've gone thru and changed the normal 3 in that position to C (for Cori's test). So, if we'd say all Mac BATs modified for night lighting do not use 3 in this position that should prevent overlap with any other existing BAT. That'd presumably give us 61,440 choices (4096 x 15) with no worry about interfering with original game content nor any Maxis addon BATs.

Changing FSH and S3D IIDs:

 

Changing the RTK1 in the exemplar:

 

And then changing the Material IDs via Tweaker:

 

Ofc it'll need testing, but it works in my game.

PEG_OMG_Iconic_Cathedral_Mac_FFDC.dat <-- Still as an override so needs the original files too. (Must load after them.)

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

12 hours ago, Cyclone Boom said:

We like the idea of sharing these fixed files with the community, though onto the STEX with the current file distribution policies in place risks it being a free for all. In a way, this is similar to if a friend brought over a file they had downloaded, then asked you to do the editing before taking that edited file back with them.

Instead one possibility might be to have an official topic here in the Mac forum where any fixed versions can all be uploaded. The initial post would contain links to the instructions @rsc204 posted earlier, and then there could be each Mac compatible file attached.

One permissible justification is because all this technically involves is providing an extended compatibility for each item. What the author created remains the same, and the difference is with the TGI values controlling how the internal texture entries are assigned. This is what then allows the Mac game to work with these in displaying the nightlights. The benefit of a dedicated thread is how all the IIDs can be listed too, ensuring full cross-compatibility between versions. As such whoever helps would be providing editing assistance which is perfectly acceptable for each person to do for themselves, but it'd be an organised controlled initiative acting in the best interest of inactive authors.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand.

When I said I'd upload them, what I meant is I would use the powers you guys gave me to replace the original file on the STEX with the fixed version, and then tag it with the Mac compatible tag. (And give proper credit, of course, to whomever fixed it.) Is this bad or wrong somehow? Do these edited files break Windows compatibility? If so, couldn't we have both? (I know there's a way to post 2 files when you click the DL link via the files have Dark Nite & Maxis Nite versions.) I understand there's some kind of issue with the number of these that can be used and that creators would have to coordinate together to make sure they don't have conflicting ones... but isn't there some version of that already when anyone makes a BAT? How is that dealt with? Could we put the information that needs to not be duplicated in another file in the description & readme so folks will know what it is and can avoid it?

I mean, I'm just viewing this as fixing something broken in the original file, something the author would have fixed themselves if they had known how to do it. I'll admit, I just woke up & I don't fully understand the technical stuff behind fixing these nor the politics behind file uploads here, but I'm really confused as to why uploading fixed versions in place of the originals and putting them under the Mac compatible tag would be an issue.

(Also, is there any way to let the modding community know that this fix has been found and encourage all authors to have it already fixed in their creations from here on forward? It wouldn't be acceptable for them to upload BATs broken for Windows/buggy BATs in WIndows to the STEX, so why should it be acceptable for them to have buggy BATs for the Mac, just because there's less Mac users?)

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

2 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

PEG_OMG_Iconic_Cathedral_Mac_FFDC.dat <-- Still as an override so needs the original files too. (Must load after them.)

I'll admit, I don't know how to forcibly load files in a certain order. I've seen a couple of semi-conflicting posts here re: this and it's not something I ever really pursued because it was nothing I really needed before. How do I do it?

(Also, I will test this one a bit later... as excited as I am about it, this is from something I DLed in 2017 which means it's been jDatPacked, which means I need to go put it in my shadow folder, repack everything with the new one in place, and replace the old file.)

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

7 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

Do these edited files break Windows compatibility?

In a nutshell: Yes, they very likely would.

The techy part @rsc204 and I have been discussing is that because the Mac version can only have one specific Group ID that means there are only a very limited number of individual IDs for the third part of the TGI and so this could cause overlaps with a zillion other bats and that'd make some load the wrong building images.

 

13 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

... but isn't there some version of that already when anyone makes a BAT?

To avoid conflicting IIDs, the update for night lights allows the full range of possibilities in the Group ID which means there are a wee bit over 4 billion choices and the odds of them being the same as someone else's is a very, very low probability. With the Mac version not having this patch, that limits the GID to one single hex number.

 

16 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

I'm really confused as to why uploading fixed versions in place of the originals and putting them under the Mac compatible tag would be an issue.

As in my above answer, the main thing is that a Mac version in place of the Windoze version would have much greater chance of conflicting with other content. Then there's been the accepted rule that other peep's content isn't modified without their permission.

The alternative which CB suggested is a single, dedicated thread which would allow tracking of the IIDs used for Macs only and have just the patched portion of the files collected there. This avoids altering the original files on the STEX as well as lets the attachments in the thread be editing assistance rather than replacement of the originals.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

Okay, I think I get this now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it @CorinaMarie.

20 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

one single hex number.

One DIGIT in a hex number? Because that's only 16 different options, IIRC. (Hex is Base 16, right?)

20 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

much greater chance of conflicting with other content

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just say you possibly found a work around with using a C digit or a 4 instead of a 3 (or vice versa) that would give us 64k different options? (The file of which I'll be happy to test as soon as I can figure out how to forcibly make it load at a specific time.)

20 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

a single, dedicated thread which would allow tracking of the IIDs used for Macs only

That's an option, but I think I'd also want to update the descriptions of the files on the STEX to let people know there's a Mac compatible version & provide a link back to the thread with it. (Also, how long do the attachments in the forums stay up? Clearly this site has been around for at least 15 years, we need to make sure these fixes can be here for 15 more if required.)

I guess that being said, frankly, having a separate place for those files feels like it removes the point of the STEX and creates a separate STEX for Mac users that is clearly unequal (it doesn't have the same search capabilities, rating capabilities, etc.) I mean, if that's how it has to be done in the end, I understand, but is it possible to do the 2 versions thing like I mentioned with people who have Maxis Nite & Dark Nite versions? If you're concerned about conflicting IDs, every file with this could have their ID listed as well as a link to the thread so that people trying to coordinate this can do so easily.

...and, of course, if we do end up getting a 64 bit version, and if they patch this like they did with the Windows version, then all of this is moot, right? (Out of curiosity, how come we never got the patches that the Windows version got? Aspyr just didn't think it was worth putting the work hours into for a version that not as many people use?)

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

20 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

One DIGIT in a hex number?

No. One full hex number as an unsigned long integer, the IID. That has 8 digits of which it appears now 4 are available for use for the Mac nightlights. (And yes, each hex digit has 16 possible values.)

 

20 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just say you possibly found a work around with using a C digit or a 4 instead of a 3 (or vice versa) that would give us 64k different options?

I did say that. And pending your tests and rsc's further input, it does seem like there will be 61k choices. With a coordinated effort, this could be a very nice workaround for the Mac version. We would not, however, want to risk replacing all files using this scheme as a 1 in 61k chance of overlap is way, way more likely than a 1 in 4 billion chance.

 

20 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

(Out of curiosity, how come we never got the patches that the Windows version got? Aspyr just didn't think it was worth putting the man hours into for a version that not as many people use?)

Only Aspyr knows the answer to that question.

[rsc204 21,808]

48 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

Do these edited files break Windows compatibility?

No, but due to the possibility of conflicts, it's a very bad idea to go around re-iding items. Not to mention, anything which depends on something else to work, would need to be updated to reflect the ID change. Simply put, you wouldn't be fixing a small number of broken things, you'd be potentially breaking the much larger number of working ones.

48 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

I understand there's some kind of issue with the number of these that can be used and that creators would have to coordinate together to make sure they don't have conflicting ones...

That would never work. The only way this is going to work, is if we have a dedicated range of IDs, that are allocated to users, managed centrally. We already do this in cases of Lot Textures, MMLs and Prop/Building Families, and the number of IDs there is way less limited.

48 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

but isn't there some version of that already when anyone makes a BAT?

Yes, but the odds of a conflict at 4.2 billion to one. In fact, they are in reality orders of magnitude higher. That's a bit different from say 57 thousand to one.

48 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

(Also, is there any way to let the modding community know that this fix has been found and encourage all authors to have it already fixed in their creations from here on forward? It wouldn't be acceptable for them to upload BATs broken for Windows/buggy BATs in WIndows to the STEX, so why should it be acceptable for them to have buggy BATs for the Mac, just because there's less Mac users?)

But this reasoning that somehow models not modded this way are faulty is incorrect. The reality is the other way around, your game isn't working properly and this work-around compensates for that. Sucks that Maxis etc never patched the Mac version, but that's why this problem exists. If every model currently in existence used this setup, we'd already be out of IDs and no one could make new models. Maxis realised this would be the case and patched the game to compensate.

14 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

I guess that being said, frankly, having a separate place for those files feels like it removes the point of the STEX and creates a separate STEX for Mac users that is clearly unequal (it doesn't have the same search capabilities, rating capabilities, etc.)

I see why you might feel that way. But the realities of this are 2 parts technical limitations and 1 part politics. The idea of a complete STEX full of Mac compatible files (in this sense), is a total non-starter, who is going to do all the work to make that happen? Even if people were lining up to help, we don't have 57k IDs, that's the absolute maximum and when everything is checked a more conservative estimate is around 20k, certainly better than my previous 2k estimate though. Still, that's less IDs than existing models, I'm certain of it.

As for the politics, if I make something, that's my work and protected by the community rules. If someone else modifies it, they can't just upload it with those modifications. There are certain rules to adhere too and that's just an end of it. By doing it the way Corina and CB have proposed, we are gently tip-toeing around that as best we can. That necessitates this being a separate thing and not simply updating the STEX. Likewise, Windows users should really NOT be using this ID system. Again, Maxis knew it wouldn't work and changed it, which should be revealing.

14 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

...and, of course, if we do end up getting a 64 bit version, and if they patch this like they did with the Windows version, then all of this is moot, right?

Pipe dream, I'll eat hats if they do. Knowing the past re: SC4 Mac development, they will just recompile the existing code as 64-bit. They never cared about these issues for all these years, why should they start now? Especially when all such developers are rushing to recompile many titles, so they still work.

[Cyclone Boom 16,875]

1 hour ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

I'll admit, I don't know how to forcibly load files in a certain order. I've seen a couple of semi-conflicting posts here re: this and it's not something I ever really pursued because it was nothing I really needed before. How do I do it?

For loading order, it works alphabetically for files in one's Plugins folder. Those which load after are any which begin with a letter (or number) which is sequentially after the previous. An example of this is when adding a "z" onto the start of a file name as the prefix. This file then would load after one beginning with a "y" for instance. It's possible to add a system of prefixes to fine-tune controlling loading order, and this can be beneficial for certain items like terrain mods.

There's an excellent summary posted here by @T Wrecks which delves into more detail about how this works.

 

31 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

Also, how long do the attachments in the forums stay up?

Site attachments are stored indefinitely providing the author doesn't delete them.

Nowadays we make weekly local backups of all user uploaded content, which means should any get accidently deleted and they can easily be restored. There's no automatic pruning of older attachments, and any broken are due to losses between site upgrades when the system was more fragile.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

Thanks for your detailed reply @rsc204. I think I'm really understanding all of this now.

26 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

But this reasoning that somehow models not modded this way are faulty is incorrect. The reality is the other way around, your game isn't working properly and this work-around compensates for that. Sucks that Maxis etc never patched the Mac version, but that's why this problem exists. If every model currently in existence used this setup, we'd already be out of IDs and no one could make new models. Maxis realised this would be the case and patched the game to compensate.

This is super tricky. I mean, you're totally right. But it assumes some non-existent Mac version of the game that's patched. And at least as of right now, that's not the case. It doesn't exist. So if we're using the "don't code for the game you want, code for the game you have" theory, instead of saying the models are broken for that non-existent Mac version (which they are), the models are, indeed, broken for what we have on the Mac. And as a Mac user & SC4 lover, obviously I've gotta take the side of the game we have.

But I do respect how this breaks the version that most people have which is why I think the offering 2 different files version is the best solution. That being said, also while I respect IP of the original creators, in no way shape or form does this actually change the INTENT of what the file is or is supposed to do. In fact, what it does is make it work the way they WANTED it to work... that is, with nightlights. I'm sure none of them INTENDED for nightlights not to work on the Mac; it just didn't because bugs. I'm sure some of them would have fixed it if they had known. And, in fact, a few did, esp. @Hamish. I think intent matters greatly here, and I think, in general, fully functional and operational files should be prioritized over slavish devotion to the rules which put a creator's original file as fully sacrosanct. We're just doing what they would have done if they would have known how. (And, as I said previously, if a file was buggy for Windows, it would be pulled or corrected and reposted. Macs deserve the same respect, but since pulling the file will harm the Windows version, I think posting both versions is the best compromise.)

Of course, y'all are our illustrious leaders here so obviously what you say goes.

 

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

2 minutes ago, Cyclone Boom said:

There's an excellent summary posted here by @T Wrecks which delves into more detail about how this works.

I've tried this in the past and it didn't work for me. Maybe I did something wrong? (OTOH, maybe the order it's listed in menus is a different beast than load order, and I was trying to do this to get it to tweak the order the files came up in the menus (I've got like a hundred plus parks at this point and load order would make a huge difference).) (Also, can I complain about how Mac users don't have the DAMN? Maybe if I ask Santa for a Mac version for Christmas... )

Anyway, I'll give it another go.

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

4 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

Of course, y'all are our illustrious leaders here so obviously what you say goes.

And our decision here is a compromise which we feel is the best we can do and still be politically correct. (CB is writing more on this and will post soon.)

 

5 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

OTOH, maybe the order it's listed in menus is a different beast than load order ...

Yep. They are completely different. Load order is which files the game reads in what order as it starts up the game and goes into a city tile. Menu order is controlled by a property within the building exemplar.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

1 minute ago, CorinaMarie said:

Yep. They are completely different. Load order is which files the game reads in what order as it starts up the game and goes into a city tile. Menu order is controlled by a property within the building exemplar.

AH! Thank you! THAT'S why when I tried this in the past, it didn't work. (So what's the secret for getting all of Paeng's Parks at the beginning? Because that alone would save me MUCH pain and suffering, because they're at the very end (excepting the Yellow Brick Road ones), and, if it didn't take so long, I would use them ALL THE TIME, like almost exclusively.)

(In fact, maybe this should be posted in that thread for folks who wandered in there thinking load order would affect menu order like I did.)

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

2 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

So what's the secret for getting all of Paeng's Parks at the beginning?

Well... first you need to get Reader working. (Then we can dig up one of the thorough explanations of what to edit.)

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

17 minutes ago, Cyclone Boom said:

An example of this is when adding a "z" onto the start of a file name as the prefix.

So what you're saying is I can change file names w/o it affecting performance? It won't break my BATs? Because I've always wondered if it would and I assumed it would because files are dependent on other files so it probably needs to know the names of them. (Or do I have to do this with folders only?)

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

4 minutes ago, c4bl3fl4m3 said:

So what you're saying is I can change file names w/o it affecting performance? It won't break my BATs? Because I've always wondered if it would and I assumed it would because files are dependent on other files so it probably needs to know the names of them. (Or do I have to do this with folders only?)

You can change the file names all you like and the game won't care at all. It reads them in order based on whatever name they have and the way if finds what links to other things internally is based on the data in various exemplar properties.

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

1 minute ago, CorinaMarie said:

You can change the file names all you like and the game won't care at all. It reads them in order based on whatever name they have and the way if finds what links to other things internally is based on the data in various exemplar properties.

Oh, wow, that's huge! That's definitely something I should include in my "things I wish I knew/I wished was available easily in one place when I started getting into this" file!

You folks are the best. Thanks SO MUCH!!!

[c4bl3fl4m3 405]

9 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

Well... first you need to get Reader working.

Oh man, I always told myself I wasn't going to get involved in the editing side, just the modding and playing side...

You DO realize if I start down this path, eventually I'll be making BATs, right? ;D (Or was that your nefarious scheme all along? ;D)

[CorinaMarie 29,605]

The modding side is one which most definitely needs Reader. Making BATs is something else entirely and requires other tools. I've never BATted.