Art Deco DLC made by Shroomblaze!

[rsc204 21,866]

On ‎29‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 5:15 PM, Ln X said:

Call me miserly, stingy, entitled, douche or whatever. But that is my 2 cents.

Wow, I see you've been rather ostracised for making some good points in this thread.

Seriously though people, if you can just step back for one moment and stop thinking this is a witch-hunt against modders making some money, perhaps you can understand there is a bigger picture here.

Modders aren't going to make money, it's Paradox and Steam that will be siphoning off most of it. You know what, if the modder gets a fair price for their work, that's one thing. I mean when you work for a company, your pay is a small slice of the profits, no? No one I think really minds people getting paid. But I don't think that Paradox or Steam deserve such a high fee in return for simply selling someone's work.

@Ln X is also quite right in being worried about the longer term consequences for the community in this context. Of course no one has to pay for anything, we're not stupid. But if there is money to be made, once that becomes precedent, who's going to be giving their stuff away? So the free content will logically dry up, at the very least it will be seriously reduced. Leaving a game that costs a fortune to play, with most of the money not going to our beloved modders, but to Paradox and Steam. If you think about it, if the same sums of money were just put into a community fund to reward modders, you'd better accomplish the goal of rewarding creators. Without giving a huge slice to big corporations who are basically looking to monetise the hard work of modders.

Think about some of the best CJ's you've seen? Now ask yourself how much it would cost, should every mod have come with a price tag? Suddenly the whole community changes, between one of haves and have-nots. And the only way to join in, is to pay many hundred's of Euros for content. Sorry, but I don't think that's helpful to keeping interest in the game long-term.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

5 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Wow, I see you've been rather ostracised for making some good points in this thread.

Seriously though people, if you can just step back for one moment and stop thinking this is a witch-hunt against modders making some money, perhaps you can understand there is a bigger picture here.

Ugh, I hate it when people throw around the whole "your so entitled expecting things to be free on the internet" or "if you don't like it, don't buy it, no is forcing you to". Yet have say Facebook, Twitter and Youtube charge monthly subscription fees (and make dozens of billions of dollars in revenue) and those same people suddenly lose their minds as they expected those things to always be free. In fact why haven't those big three started charging subscriptions, they would make an absolute killing!

Yeah I think, going back to the matter, that Shroomblaze will probably make at least several thousand euros in money. Good for him, that's his expenses covered for at least half a year. Not going to begrudge that, money is money. But the prospect of a game's price tag running into the hundreds, possibly thousands, of pounds makes my stomach turn something bad.

Put it this way. A good quality computer costs at least a £1000, that's some serious money right there for ordinary people. Now the best of SC4 and CS players were originally casual players who drifted into the respective communities and slowly discovered the opportunities which mods and custom files offered. Those same people would not have created such fantastic content, i.e. CJs, if the price tag for a whole bunch of mods, dependencies, buildings and lots to get stellar results was in the ballpark of £500.

I would not have used what the modding community had to offer if each file cost a bit. To put this into perspective, I reckon I have at least three thousand buildings, a few hundred dependencies, maybe two thousand fillers and a few dozen mods in my SC4 plugins folder. Say 15 buildings cost £5, a mod £1, Say 10 fillers £1 (less work needed) and a dependency £5 because they are absolutely necessary and thus highly useful for users of custom content and creators of custom content. My minimal bill would be-

£2230!

It becomes a rich man's game because the best quality will come from the greatest variety which will come from the person with the most amount of spare cash to spend.

Which is why supporting this DLC and others like it, those tentative tests of the market, will only encourage games to become more expensive and gaming companies will quickly shift to focusing on cosmetic updates, building packs, small mods and little things like that as this will be where the real money is made. So the core game becomes even worse, more buggy and less complete because now there is a market for purchasing numerous updates and packs to improve gaming experience. DO NOT buy this DLC without realising the consequences it will have on the quality of gaming!

[boformer 3,169]

1 hour ago, Ln X said:

DO NOT buy this DLC without realising the consequences it will have on the quality of gaming!

I still don't get your point. There are still hundreds of asset creators and mod developers who are releasing their content for free.

Why do you think that a few of these DLCs will change that? Isn't that a motivation to produce even better free stuff?

It's not like we are releasing content for free because it is the only way.

I'm also willing to spend more money for this game, and I'm also willing to give more money to Steam for their service. I have played it for almost 1000 hours. So far I paid about 50€ for 1000 hours of fun...

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Ah... I'm just a bit worried that's all. Microtransactions spooked me and this DLC seems like a weird variation of this idea, plus things in Britain are so expensive: rent, cars, utilities, petrol, certain types of food... It's just another thing to balance out. I wish society was more cheaper.

[Darf 1,439]

I think it might inspire more people to start making content, which means more free content. If there's quality content released for a price, I'm all for it.

[mutton noir 170]

Wait a minute. I have to PAY????? Oh the hysteria! It's the end of the world as we know it! There are almost 100000 mods/assets/custom maps uploaded to the workshop. The quality varies from excellent to meh. ALL of it is free. Multiply that number by x hours it took each person to design and create the item. Add the number of hours each person took to perfect their use of the various software packages used. Add a monetary value to each of the above and add the lot to reach the combined value. IT'S A BIG NUMBER! and it's available to everyone FOR FREE!!!! 

Suddenly CO link up with modders to create content that is quality assured and will not break your game and offer it at a fair price and we have uproar. How many of you go to work and expect no payment? Yes the majority of modders produce work to further develop their skills- many as a hobby- many on their journey to make a career in the business who see this as a way to get noticed. ALL have decided to upload to the workshop- no one forced them. Now CO want to "recognise them officially and give something back" and its outrage!

Let's be honest- how many of the thousands of people who have subscribed to workshop assets have made a financial contribution to the modders patreon account? A tiny percentage- single figures would be my guess. When people take advantage of the skills services and work provided by others for free it's usually called slavery. In the current capitalist system good and services are exchanged for financial payment- a transaction. The internet has challenged that system. Skills and expertise have been devalued- particularly in creative services - music/books/journalism/graphic work/film & video to name but a few. Consumers also devour content at an exponential rate that outstrips the creators ability to produce work of a consistently high standard. 

CO are doing something- however small- to redress the imbalance. Somehow I don't think the 100000 workshop items are are risk, I don't foresee the nightmare scenario presented by a few very vocal fans.

Remember just because something is available to purchase doesn't mean you have to buy it! You just have a greater choice. 

As for modders who participate in the initiative being "ripped off" by only receiving a percentage... it's called ROYALTIES- It's how publishers and record companies film studios have operated for over a century. 

Shield now activated, awaiting incoming abuse/outrage...

[Turjan 1,048]

13 hours ago, Ln X said:

Ah... I'm just a bit worried that's all. Microtransactions spooked me and this DLC seems like a weird variation of this idea...

That's the Paradox way. They also sell community mods for some of their other games. Crusader Kings 2, a $40 game that is often on sale, has more than $300 of DLC on offer.

By the way, the Art Deco DLC is only between Paradox and Matt Crux, and CO has nothing to do with it. At least that's a statement from CO_Martsu:

"We are very happy that modders are involved in the development of Cities: Skylines, but unfortunately we at Colossal Order can't take any credit for this. It's all thanks to Paradox, who came up with the idea and executed it together with the modder "

[Judazzz 1,936]

1 hour ago, mutton noir said:

How many of you go to work and expect no payment?

I generally agree with your post, and it's obviously a matter that has two sides of the same coin (I am all for rewarding top notch modelers, but at the same time am afraid of the precedents this may set, the potential to see a community fraction, etc.), but imo. there is one flaw in your logic: modding is hard work, but it is not work as in having a job - not ever. Modding is community-driven and done by enthusiasts, and expecting to make a living through that is.... well... ....rather stupid imho. It's your own responsibility to make ends meet, and if you decide to rely on income earned through modding, than no one but yourself is to blame for the consequences. If you compare work with modding and hold the same expectations, than I think you're bound to end up disappointed, because, again, it's not the same.....

[Bad Peanut 826]

I just love how whenever an asset creator makes something awesome people are like "Omg CO should hire you!" and yet when paradox literally does just that suddenly it's all "ahhh what do you mean we have to pay you???"  geeezzzz

[Darf 1,439]

2 hours ago, Judazzz said:

I generally agree with your post, and it's obviously a matter that has two sides of the same coin (I am all for rewarding top notch modelers, but at the same time am afraid of the precedents this may set, the potential to see a community fraction, etc.), but imo. there is one flaw in your logic: modding is hard work, but it is not work as in having a job - not ever. Modding is community-driven and done by enthusiasts, and expecting to make a living through that is.... well... ....rather stupid imho. It's your own responsibility to make ends meet, and if you decide to rely on income earned through modding, than no one but yourself is to blame for the consequences. If you compare work with modding and hold the same expectations, than I think you're bound to end up disappointed, because, again, it's not the same.....

Well, that's why there's a difference between this pack and regular asset creating. It's a huge time investment, you need to do your own quality assurance, there's the issue of getting royalty free textures and stuff. Trust me, not everyone will be able to do that.

[Turjan 1,048]

18 minutes ago, Bad Peanut said:

I just love how whenever an asset creator makes something awesome people are like "Omg CO should hire you!" and yet when paradox literally does just that suddenly it's all "ahhh what do you mean we have to pay you???"  geeezzzz

Unless you talk about the exact same people who say both, there's nothing remarkable about this observation. People are different.

[Bad Peanut 826]

Just now, Turjan said:

Unless you talk about the exact same people who say both, there's nothing remarkable about this observation. People are different.

true! haha

[Judazzz 1,936]

On 9/5/2016 at 5:02 PM, Bad Peanut said:

I just love how whenever an asset creator makes something awesome people are like "Omg CO should hire you!" and yet when paradox literally does just that suddenly it's all "ahhh what do you mean we have to pay you???"  geeezzzz

In the minds of those people, I doubt getting hired by CO necessarily equates creating paid DLC. I think most of them simply mean it as a compliment that they are good enough to actually be incorporated into CO's team of modeler's, not as a freelancing content creators that sells his/her work as a separate DLC's.

 

@Darf - about the royalty-free textures, I get that, but there's tons of free textures available as well - maybe not exactly the same, but I'd wager there should be enough available to cover most of the things you'd typically see in a city sim Workshop. Correct me if I'm wrong, though  

Other than that, creating stuff for the Workshop is a huge time investment for anyone who does it, and everyone (ok, the responsible ones) has to do their own quality assurances. For mod builders you can add bug fixing, support and future development to that list (for my mods I've spend more time trying to replicate and fix bugs than the time took me to write and test the code in the first place). So quite honestly, I don't find that a very valid reason - you either have (and make) the time for it, or you don't. And if it turns out to be too much of an effort, either put up, or quit. It may sound a bit harsh, but I'm just not buying the 'It takes an investment' justification for paid DLC, because firstly those investments were known before this 'Monetized user content program' was introduced, and secondly, it applies to everyone who takes his modding/modeling serious.

[Bad Peanut 826]

2 minutes ago, Judazzz said:

you either have (and make) the time for it, or you don't. And if it turns out to be too much of an effort, either put up, or quit. It may sound a bit harsh, but I'm just not buying the 'It takes an investment' justification for paid DLC, because firstly those investments were known before this 'Monetized user content program' was introduced, and secondly, it applies to everyone who takes his modding/modeling serious.

and yet when someone does this (ngon) a LOT of people got very angry about it... unfortunately not everyone is as pragmatic as you

[Judazzz 1,936]

On 9/5/2016 at 5:31 PM, Bad Peanut said:

and yet when someone does this (ngon) a LOT of people got very angry about it... unfortunately not everyone is as pragmatic as you

But that's because the C:SL community, no matter how great and friendly it is on the whole, also contains a large portion of spoiled, entitled people who think that as soon as something's uploaded to the Workshop, it basically becomes their property with which they can do as they please (thus hijacking ownership and copyright rights). Those people typically also don't realize (honest ignorance) or appreciate (deliberate entitlement), that creating content costs free(!) time and energy, that there's a whole development process preceding the actual upload to the Workshop. Nor that the process doesn't end with the upload.
Unfortunately there's not a lot we can do about those people. Personally, I've simply chosen to ignore them. Or in some cases, I ask them to do some work for me first: I've had several people asking me to create Canadian road signs for my American RoadSigns mod - something I wouldn't mind doing, but I told them my time is limited and I'd only do it if they could find me some suitable source material (textures mainly) that I could use for Canadian signs, or at least point me in the right direction. And guess what: I never heard from them again...  

As far as Ngon is concerned: irregardless of what exactly occurred between him and the community, I really believe his action was a dick move, because it simply left a whole lot of players out in the cold who had nothing to do with the whole episode (luckily I was able to retrieve his assets in time, so I now have them in my local asset folder). However, he had the right to do so, and thus, despite my opinion about his handling of the situation, I do respect his decision to pull his assets (I would do too if I hadn't managed to copy his assets in time - his work is fantastic, but not irreplaceable or unique, unlike the work of some other modelers), and I do not respect the actions of those who re-uploaded his assets to the Workshop (basically violating Ngon's ownership and copyright rights) - unless those people have asked for permission (which I doubt).

[Avanya 2,605]

1 minute ago, Judazzz said:

As far as Ngon is concerned: irregardless of what exactly occurred between him and the community, I really believe his action was a dick move, because it simply left a whole lot of players out in the cold who had nothing to do with the whole episode (luckily I was able to retrieve his assets in time, so I now have them in my local asset folder). However, he had the right to do so, and thus, despite my opinion about his handling of the situation, I do respect his decision to pull his assets (I would do too if I hadn't managed to copy his assets in time - his work is fantastic, but not irreplaceable or unique, unlike the work of some other modelers), and I do not respect the actions of those who re-uploaded his assets to the Workshop (basically violating Ngon's ownership and copyright rights) - unless those people have asked for permission (which I doubt).

I 100% agree! And I'm pretty sure they don't have permission to reupload - I asked about this offering to take over the support of his stuff to which he replied that there was a reason why he took them down (I take that as he didn't want them up anymore).

@Bad Peanut I'm just curious - did you know Ngon? I see you defend him and his actions alot, so just curious if it's based on knowing him or sympathizing with the situation.

I'm still not sure how I feel about this whole thing. After seeing the screenshots boformer grabbed they're definately quality buildings and the appreciation and reward for Shroomblaze is great to see. But I can also see how these DLCs could get out of hand and I'd still rather the money went straight to the creator (unless Paradox have been unusually generous and given Shroomblaze a large cut).

[Bad Peanut 826]

3 minutes ago, Avanya said:

 

@Bad Peanut I'm just curious - did you know Ngon? I see you defend him and his actions alot, so just curious if it's based on knowing him or sympathizing with the situation.

Didn't know them whatsoever - I just empathise a lot with their situation and I really really don't like it when people can't see beyond their own wants. - which of course I do as well as anyone but it can get aggravating when people give others a hard time without knowing what the person is feeling inside.

[Matthias King 348]

Has Shroom weighed in on this anywhere? I'm curious what his take on it is, or if he's not allowed to comment, per his agreement. I have no idea.

Last I checked, he's getting some hate on the Art Deco workshop page. I hope it hasn't soured him on the game.

I also wonder if, once someone has done a commercial pack, they'll return to free assets afterward or not.

I understand and agree with people hoping this doesn't signal a new trend that sees all the good free assets dry up, or existing ones get pulled. But I hope we can approach the situation, and especially fellow community members like Shroom, with some patience, understanding, and decency.

[TPB 563]

Regarding the DLC, coming back to topic, I think I'm also starting to change my mind as to the quality of it, although I still believe its a bit overpriced for 15 buildings. But the images boformer posted look very nice. Shame about the illumination issue. I also am not a fan of the overscaled roof textures. Maybe if they fix the LOD issue I might actually end up buying it, even if just to please my completionist impulses

[Cyclone Boom 17,031]

While it's great to see a modder getting this kind of recognition and reward, I too have concerns about the whole concept of user-created DLC.

Since money is involved, the content is now a product. It's not a gift or donation, and this means there are obvious legal considerations -- what would've been free items, are now bound by a legal agreement. For the author, this adds more pressure to create content up to a standard, and to also provide any needed updates and product support. I doubt CO will influence this, seeing as they're mainly handling the promotion.

With any digital product, a key thing is the relationship between developer and consumer. However in this instance, the developer is freelance, and likely holds the responsibility of not only creating, but communicating and providing tech support. A worrying thing so far, is very little (if any) communication has taken place. Those bug reports posted (e.g. illumination bug), seemingly have yet to receive a response from Shroomblaze or CO. For those who bought the pack, it would be reassuring at least to know any issues will be looked into. If the author doesn't hold this responsibility, knowing the ins and outs of the product, who does?

Another issue is how this may impact other content creators. There are countless authors on the Workshop, many who've developed a plethora of buildings, mods and maps. But how does CO determine exactly who should be supported? With future packs in the pipeline, there must be a selection process, and this will undoubtedly leave some people literally feeling short-changed. With such a scheme, it's surely going to diminish the open nature of modding, and make it more commercially privatized. For those not fortunate to be selected, could this also impact their enthusiasm to create content, knowing some are producing similar items and getting paid?

Putting this in perspective, the SC4 community continues to thrive for over a decade based on the principles of free content. The NAM Team, one of the largest and most influential group of modders have created 34 releases over a span of 12 years. The interesting thing is, especially given how the NAM has essentially become synonymous with the game, it has always remained free and available to all.

It will remain to be seen, but I fear this now sets a new precedent for C:S custom content. Either legally or motivationally, hopefully it doesn't limit chosen authors to developing paid items. This could potentially be a barrier to creating or supporting previously released free content. Because if the door is open to selling your content, why would you continue to invest time and effort in free items? The content is therefore being limited to a segment of the community, and it relates back to the issues discussed in this topic. Only the author, CO and those willing to pay would receive any benefit.

I truly hope Paradox can consider these issues, and find the best way to address them going forward.

[Judazzz 1,936]

On 9/7/2016 at 8:47 PM, Cyclone Boom said:

With any digital product, a key thing is the relationship between developer and consumer. However in this instance, the developer is freelance, and likely holds the responsibility of not only creating, but communicating and providing tech support. A worrying thing so far, is very little (if any) communication has taken place. Those bug reports posted (e.g. illumination bug), seemingly have yet to receive a response from Shroomblaze or CO. For those who bought the pack, it would be reassuring at least to know any issues will be looked into. If the author doesn't hold this responsibility, knowing the ins and outs of the product, who does?

I think you raise a very valid (and potentially worrying) concern here: what about support? It's obvious the Art Deco assets, or at least some of them, have issues that, had they been free Workshop items, for me personally would be reason enough for me to steer clear of them (a poor LOD makes me sad, poor illumination much more so). I'm already very critical when it comes to picking free assets from the Workshop, but when I have to pay for them that bar is raised substantially, and issues such as the one(s) mentioned simply can't be tolerated (imho.)
So if Paradox wants this to become a successful initiative, they need to A) acknowledge such issues publicly and promptly, and B) make sure they are being fixed speedily. Failure to do either basically means they're already sawing away at the chair legs that keep the whole construction upright, very shortly after it was conceived. But to be honest, I'm not overly optimistic about this one...

[Cyclone Boom 17,031]

For containment, I've moved the posts about creator rights to here:

Let's keep this thread for discussion on the paid user DLC.

Thanks.

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

The support thing is a very good point. I never thought about that. I just look at any DLC be it from a modder or CO to be in a different category from the workshop. In the workshop we see all the time people taking over abandoned assets and mods with and sometimes without permission. With DLC, I see it as not even an option as something made freely in the workshop.

[boformer 3,169]

I'm quite sure that they will fix the LOD illumination in the next game update (DLC files are bundled with the game.

I don't understand how this passed the QA.