LSE Bat feedback

[1500another 35]

I'm fairly new to the community here, Have been playing Simcity since its release but never really got into creating content. As a londoner, I was always disappointed with the lack of British content(specifically london-based). Recently I've tried my hand at gmax for the first time. It is frustratingly difficult to grasp.... After a week of tinkering with BAT, I think I've begun to get a handle on how it works. My first bat attempted and completed is shown below. I wanted to try and replicate the london feel of the City, thus i thought it best to begin with the London Stock Exchange at Paternoster square. A rather complicated and difficult BAT for my first attempt, but I think it has turned out all-right all things considering...

 

I know many will post their work on the forums to receive feedback, and I would truly appreciate the same treatment, however, due to my newness with the program (and the seeming disrepair of the omnibus tutorial content) my preference would be to receive feedback with guidance on how to go about making the suggested modifications. As you will observe, I found the roof and windows to be the most challenging and I think that is reflected in the end result, unfortunately. Ive yet to achieve the right colouring or texturing for the windows or their overhanging shade curtains (which are a more of a pale blue than the deep blue Gmax has created) - and am rather exasperated with how to apply gloss(or where to apply it), and how to construct a consistent (and good looking) texture. My hope was to apply a light shading on the windows and then utilise another layer behind to emulate draw down blinds. I'm followed the tutorial on how to make a texture, to some success, but it always turns out too grainy for my taste. I have also truly struggled with the curvature of the building. At this point, I recognise it isn't perfect, and is instead a modular solution. I also recognise that some of the junk of the roof could be tailored more to emulate the real thing, but in all honesty, I wanted some feedback and guidance on the process before moving forward any further.

 

I'd like to perfect this one first but in regard to my outlook looking forward, I think my next undertaking will be a more simplistic building from The City, perhaps Adelaide House, or a generic W2W CS$-$$$, something that will be less frustrating to undertake. I'd also like to eventually flesh out paternoster square itself,Along with the royal exchange and One New Change, they are some of my favourite places within The City, and really reflect the stunted, english architecture that dominates the square mile

 

 

[Bombardiere 591]

Hello

 

It is nice to see another London content creator. I believe that at moment @rsc204 and me are only active content creators who are focusing at the UK.  I would love to see the Adelaide house, although I personally would prefer the Fishmonger Hall  on the other side of the bridge. This Thameside is a familiar scene for me as I have spent many evenings on pub terraces on south side of the river. In this respect, I have been eyeing the Billingsgate and teh Customs House as potential SC4 models.

 

However, unfortunately I am not in position to offer much help. I am relatively new to BATting and I have no 3D model or graphic experience before. That is why I have started with simple models to learn my ropes. Thus I would suggest to you that perhaps you should pick some simple, but yet an interesting building as first project.  The frustration can build up and it is good get rewards by the good feeling when a project is done.

 

Your preview picture is bit fuzzy and it is difficult for me to say anything specific. Just the same points that you mention, the windows and roof.

 

I don't model the windows as transparent or semi-transparent. Ok, I am lazy, but personally I don't think that transparent windows work well in SC4. A few batters have used that method, but I personally do not like the result. If you look an aerial picture, the windows on the buildings are essentially black holes. So I use dark blue-grey textures as the window glass. 

As far as I know some of the material editor's functions do not work in GMAX. I haven't tried the Gloss material, but it may not work in GMAX. It does function in 3DS MAX, but I do not like it. Often too glossy and I prefer matte finishes.

The textures I work with a paint program, GIMP. Textures for SC4 model do not have to be high quality, but if you have a large model , then the texture may be stretched and that can cause what you describe as grainy. I personally don't like to "tile" in the 3D model program, and if I need a texture for a larger surface, such as a brick texture on large wall, I use GIMP to create a continuous canvas. I also add most of the effects to texture with GIMP. I add shadings, dirt, grunge and etc. so taht one image would fit the whole wall.

 

I am not sure if the bend tool works in GMAX, but in 3ds max the bend tool needs sections in the object. For example if you want to bend a wall, you need that the wall object contains sections, which can bend. Otherwise you would get interesting, but useless, results. More sections, the smoother the bend can be.

[madhatter106 3,903]

This is rather impressive, if daunting, for a first attempt at modelling.  The end result is a pretty good start, though.  

What I always suggest to people taking their first steps is to "start small."  That is, take on a project that is one, maybe two, stories tall - something relatively simple, so that you can see the entire process through to the end...modeling, texturing, lighting, exporting, modding, playtesting, and in some cases, starting back at one of those steps and redoing things.  Since you're learning the ins and outs of the modeling program (gmax in this case), you are already working at a very slow pace; compounded with the fact that doing a complex model also takes a lot of time even for advanced BATters, the end is so far away that many people abandon their first projects because it would take far too long to complete.  With smaller buildings and more "modest" offerings, it's easier to cross the finish line, even though you're slightly hobbled because you're still finding your way through the interface and shortcuts and all the bells/whistles of the program.

It's a real bummer that the images for the phillipbo tutorial in the Omnibus are washed away; that tutorial, though long, was so full of kernels of knowledge, and was where most of us got our start.  Also, sadly, there were three gmax video modeling tutorials there as well, but their links are gone, too.  I did manage to download them and I have them somewhere on one of my laptops - I should see about putting them somewhere for viewing so they aren't completely lost forever.

[rsc204 21,805]

4 hours ago, madhatter106 said:

It's a real bummer that the images for the phillipbo tutorial in the Omnibus are washed away

No, I have them, except Page 4, which is still up (or was a day or two back). Hopefully this can be fixed.

Otherwise, I totally agree with MadHatter here, learning a 3D modelling applications ins and outs is real time consuming. It is after all a hugely complex program. Starting small and making some test items will get you feeling more comfortable with the tools and processes. That will certainly come in handy when you want to go bigger.

[1500another 35]

@Bombardiere, Both would be splendid buildings to see! I have a bit of an affinity toward Adelaide, I explored using the bend tool, and in some cases it was useful, but constructing entire walls and then curving them proved to be complicated, i think it was the method of the initial wall construction (which I have relied on splines). The advice from you and @madhatter106 is duly noted, Perhaps I will undertake a more simplistic building, although - having already become familiar with how to build a structure, I think the remaining uncertainties are peculiarities like reflections, advanced curvatures etc.. I should have worded the above better in order to explain that primarily I was looking for feedback from the above, but if there was specific feedback such as "might want to redo the roof junk" that such advice be accompanied by specificity - perhaps suggesting how to go about it. Which a simple building might not lend itself to helping learn. I reckon I should clarify, when I said it was frustrating what i meant was that it wasn't so much confusing as it houses a difficult UI. Perhaps that is because I haven't discovered how to use it properly, although - for a collective 15 hours or so, its not a half bad result.  I think the fact that I am normally a Mac user, but for ease have pulled out an old dusty PC to get the job done. I think the area I am most uneasy about is lighting,primarily because it seems rather complicated to make it realistic. 

 

Thank you greatly for the feedback. It has been immensely helpful. I think I will begin to research some simple buildings. The eternal struggle is finding a building that is both interesting and draws one's interest into slaving over it, and also is simplistic enough to easily complete.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

To be fair, realistic lighting with gmax is partly so difficult because you're working with rather clunky and sometimes even buggy tools. Have you considerered getting 3dsmax? There's a thread that informs you about ways to get it for free legally even if you are not actually a student. In addition to crisper renders, the full 3dsmax should be particularly advantegous when it comes to more complex geometry and realistic lighting. However, since it requires the BAT4max script to work for SimCity and that scipt hasn't been updated in a while, the latest version of 3dsmax may not be the one that offers the best compatibility. I know I read about recommended 3dsmax versions somewhere, but right now I don't remember where exactly.

[rsc204 21,805]

I've managed to get the BAT Essentials tutorials fixed up this afternoon.

[1500another 35]

 

@rsc204Immensely helpful, cheers.

 

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I think that's a great result for a first BAT.

I agree with the others suggesting getting 3ds max. Things like curves and really just about all modeling is harder in gmax because of the limited tools. And as far as reflections for glass or metal or water, you'll be spending your time learning in 3ds max, rather than fighting gmax. In gmax all you can do is try to hack together a workaround that manages to look decent, or avoid buildings with those features all together.

Also in the future when you post previews you should make sure at the top of the preview window it says "(1:1)" (right now it says "(2:1)" which means it's scaled to fit the window), and you should crop out everything but the preview render.

[Bombardiere 591]

16 hours ago, rsc204 said:

I've managed to get the BAT Essentials tutorials fixed up this afternoon.

For this you should receive a huge dose of prestige. This is an invaluable tutorial and the one I used when I was learning.

 

Anyway, back to the topic. I think that GMAX is a good way to learn the basic Batting. Ok, not everything is working as they should be and nightlighting can be a hassle, but people have prove that you can make great buildings with Gmax. Such as our resident GMAX guru @madhatter106 . You can be very creative with nightlighting in GMAX, but I would settle with basic texture lighted windows. As the default SC4 script is. 

 

The 3dsmax is better, no questions there. Unlike in GMAX, with 3DS MAX you can use self illuminated materials as window lights. With omni and target light you can get better results, but self illuminated materials are an easy and quick way to get decent lighted windows.

 

However, the latest version for which the BAT4MAX script is optimised is the 2012. As far as I know it is not available anywhere. I have the 2014 version, which works, but there has been some hickups and the render settings need to be manually re-adjusted. I have read that this version is not available anymore and sadly each year Autodesk offer a new version and then takes away the oldest version. Which means that every year is a one step away from the optimised 3ds max version.

 

Anyhow, your model is looking good and a very promising beginning. However I have to agree with Jasoncw, that we would need better previews to give more concrete feedback.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

3 hours ago, Bombardiere said:

However, the latest version for which the BAT4MAX script is optimised is the 2012. As far as I know it is not available anywhere. I have the 2014 version, which works, but there has been some hickups and the render settings need to be manually re-adjusted. I have read that this version is not available anymore and sadly each year Autodesk offer a new version and then takes away the oldest version. Which means that every year is a one step away from the optimised 3ds max version.

You can download some older versions, check this post on the Autodesk forums. However, I tried the solution and the oldest links I could find were for 2014. :-/

[1500another 35]

@T Wrecks, I've considered, but honestly can't be asked. Especially being as happy as I am with the current result (and if I'm not mistaken you can't export gmax into 3ds). Moreover, I reckon I will only turn out a handful of BATs anyways, I work in the City - and honestly don't find as much free time as I'd like. Thanks @Jasoncw, truly means a lot. In regard to the 3DS, it would be ideal - but time-wise I don't think its in the cards.. I haven't played Sc4 in about 4 years, and only recently have had some leisure time. Since stopping I've switched to a mac, running GMAX through wine seemed too much work ( i couldn't find a licence key and so to run the bypass was beginning to get a bit too convoluted) so I am essentially BATing on an old PC I found and occasionally playing on the app-store version. Making Paternoster square was pushed from a desire to have content that went along with the brilliant St Paul's cathedral BAT lurking around. I am pretty chuffed with the result and thanks to @rsc204 I've really been able to better understand what I did right (and more importantly how to fix what i did wrong). I've included a photo of the progress. I think its a marked improvement. Still not thrilled with recreating that sc4 'feel', though.

[rsc204 21,805]

That's certainly an improvement. I personally feel gMax is a great place to start. If and when you decide to take it to the next level, most of what you've learnt would transfer to 3DS Max well. You can convert models, but it's a convoluted process to actually do it.

As Bombardier pointed out, UK content is something I am very interested in. As such, if it frees you up to model, feel free to holler for help with texturing/lotting/modding if you'd like. It's great to see this part of The City being covered.

[Bombardiere 591]

This is a really good work for a newcomer I have been batting more that a year and I still don't do this good. Some textures need a bit of work. Those whitish areas and grey on the roof. These would need a little bit of effect. Some grunge, dirty, effect, call it what ever you like, but some variation to make the colour tone less flat.

For final work you better render each model as separate. If you want to put all the models in one lot, I think it is best that the main building is separate and smaller buildings and the monument can be as props.

 

P.s. Size. The size is a big issue in SC4. Even MAxis was very flexible with it. So as you are a newcomer in to batting, i suggest that you test you half-finished model in SC4 game environment and see if your model match with plug-in you are using.

Official Maxis scale is one tile = 16 metres. Some of the Maxis buildings are underscaled, especially their low wealth R$ buildings and landmarks. On the other hand, many Euro batters did overscale their bats. I would say some are about 50 % bigger than the official game scale. I have personally opted a compromise. I make my building Bat in average about 20 % bigger than the game scale. I feel that this size work best. One of my first works was London townhouse pack. I did these as real life size, but now in the game I feel that these are too small.

If you are making small props such as dust bins, mail boxes, benches and etc. i think these need to be overscaled to look good in the game.

[madhatter106 3,903]

Scale is indeed a bugaboo in SC4.  Maxis is a bit all over the map when it comes to their buildings, as Bombardiere mentioned above - the residentials especially look incongruous with commercials when placed side by side.  But I can understand that one has to "cheat" some things to get the desired results, such as is the case with sims themselves - If I recall correctly, sims are scaled taller so that they don't look like ants or tiny specks of dust on the screen, so I often find when BATting that I need to scale the ground floor higher than normal to accommodate.  Especially if it's a single story building, where everything just looks squashed.  So the game itself and the scale(s) imposed by Maxis do have a profound effect on everything that we as custom content creators do with the game henceforth. 

A lot of discussion has ensued over the years about floor heights - I've settled on floors above the ground floor and/or mezzanine being 4.5 meters high for multi-story buildings, which looks fairly decent in the renders and final results.  I found that 4.0 meters was too squat and anything above 4.75 meters looked way too tall and stretched. 

In the upper left corner of the last preview render, the curve of the roof parapet looks especially choppy - short line segments together, rather than a smooth curve.  In some places that might work, but because this span is so large, it looks a bit too rough and chunky.  Also, the texture on the mansard (for lack of a better term) pitched roof piece is doing some very bendy things in the front.

[1500another 35]

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it. In re: to the height, @madhatter106, @Bombardiere;I've run it in game and it fits well. I was sure to keep things to scale, with a 130% bump on the height. I thought about rendering each model separately and then using them as props - but as I understood, sometimes props will overlap weirdly along images, is this true?. Ive improved some of the textures, but am still looking for some. guidance on what is making it look not Simcity worthy.. I am also encountering small pixels of discolouration. Im unsure as to why this is the case, and would like some guidance on how to change it...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[madhatter106 3,903]

A number of us have encountered this pixel problem before - It's a gmax thing, apparently, and has something to do with using textures that are not 100% opacity.  If you do semi-transparent glass in gmax with a texture that isn't 100%, there's a chance that this will happen.  In some cases for me, it would create little singed dark black pixels on the edges of the model; in one of my recent uploads, it did something similar to what you have pictured (dark grey spotty pixels here and there).  I know there was a lot of back and forth about it in my BAT thread about five years ago and I cannot recall on what precisely we settled on, but from what we were able to determine, it's something to do with less than 100% opaque textures...

[1500another 35]

@madhatter106, that would make sense, if it was only in the blue area - but the brick has 100% opacity. Is there any way to correct it? How did you avoid it in your recent BATs?

 

[madhatter106 3,903]

10 hours ago, 1500another said:

@madhatter106, that would make sense, if it was only in the blue area - but the brick has 100% opacity. Is there any way to correct it? How did you avoid it in your recent BATs?

 

It doesn't seem to matter - if the gmax BAT uses any textures with less than 100% opacity, this can happen occasionally.  It doesn't just affect those less than 100% ones.  Or at least we were able to deduce this after much discussion; my BAT thread from about October 2011 or so has a couple of exchanges about it.

[Bombardiere 591]

On 6.8.2016 at 10:36 PM, 1500another said:

I thought about rendering each model separately and then using them as props - but as I understood, sometimes props will overlap weirdly along images, is this true?.

Yes, the main building may eat part of the props if those overlap. This usually happens in certain angles. But I would not worry about this too much as it happens only when the building and the prop really close. I haven't noted the props conflict each other. May be that can happen too, but I am not sure.

As far as I know the setup as it is in the picture would not cause an issue in the game.

[rsc204 21,805]

If one model is "eating another", that will be because the LODs are colliding. The textures rendered for SC4 Models are only in 2D, they are shown in-game with the 3D effect by way of the UV mapping onto the 3D LOD. For many models, using the function in the BAT to automatically create them is sufficient. But often just a few tweaks to the LODs can improve how it interacts with other nearby models.

The automatic LODs just look at the extremes of your model and creates a rectangular box around them. But for your model, this setup would be inefficient, so you should modify LOD3, you can then duplicate the object to LOD4 and LOD5. To display the existing LODs, look under the BAT Rollout/Parameters select LOD3 to toggle it's display. To try and better explain what I mean, see the example below. Just by adjusting the angles of the LOD to more accurately cover your building, you'll greatly improve the models usability. Just remember LODs should be POLYs, plus they must completely contain your model inside them.

[Bombardiere 591]

22 hours ago, rsc204 said:

If one model is "eating another", that will be because the LODs are colliding. The textures rendered for SC4 Models are only in 2D, they are shown in-game with the 3D effect by way of the UV mapping onto the 3D LOD. For many models, using the function in the BAT to automatically create them is sufficient. But often just a few tweaks to the LODs can improve how it interacts with other nearby models.

The automatic LODs just look at the extremes of your model and creates a rectangular box around them. But for your model, this setup would be inefficient, so you should modify LOD3, you can then duplicate the object to LOD4 and LOD5. To display the existing LODs, look under the BAT Rollout/Parameters select LOD3 to toggle it's display. To try and better explain what I mean, see the example below. Just by adjusting the angles of the LOD to more accurately cover your building, you'll greatly improve the models usability. Just remember LODs should be POLYs, plus they must completely contain your model inside them.

 

Robin are you certain that SC4 accept non-rectangular LODs? I have tried to do this, but everytime the SC4 has shown the LOD as a box. The SC4 just takes the four corners and creates a box LOD out of those.

 

Ok, I have  only tried this with 3DS MAX. May be import to GMAX messes it. I have not tried to a custom LOD with GMAX.

 

[rsc204 21,805]

Absolutely, if you look at my rail depot models, without the complex LODs I created (with the help of @Girafe), it would be impossible to have an empty shell inside the model. By creating an empty shell, you can add props inside the model, which even show through the glass. These were made originally in SC4 BAT and later converted into 3DS max. Both applications therefore must have been exporting the LODs correctly.

Are you perhaps referring to the Bounding Box, the area shown in the Lot Editor? This is set by the Occupant Size property, which can only ever result in a box, since you can only set the Length, Width and Depth of it. To see the actual LODs, you need to open the S3D model in Reader, then switch to Wireframe mode to show the geometry. Although the "box" of a LOD is split into the components necessary to show it from one angle correctly. In essence, if you recombined the LODs of four rotations of the same zoom, you'd have the original LOD.

[1500another 35]

I can confirm that the LODs can be shaped. I've successfully tested it in game. Although the model textures still appear washed out. It's interesting/frusterating how different the render is from the in game model.. I assume the best route is to darken the colours, and not, for example, modify the lighting rig? 

[Bombardiere 591]

@rsc204 Thanks, there is new information for me. I failed to a custom LOD for my townhouse foundation, but perhaps I was thinking it wrong way around. It is good to know that I can check the LOD in the Reader. It is obvious now that you mentioned about it, but haven't though of that.

 

@1500another I call that a bleach effect and it is how default render is set up. However, it is good to note, that the SC4 game environment is very de-saturated.  Another thing which is obvious when it is pointed, but I did only recently noticed how de-saturated Maxis models really are. So to fit in the game, it is good that the colours look a little bit "washed out." Your model looks good in the preview. I haven't used GMAX for over a year, so I can't remember how different the preview and the in game was. The GMAX window views are ... well ahem, I better use a technical term ... Wonky, and that gives a pretty poor idea how the textures and the model looks in the game

[1500another 35]

35 minutes ago, Bombardiere said:

@rsc204 Thanks, there is new information for me. I failed to a custom LOD for my townhouse foundation, but perhaps I was thinking it wrong way around. It is good to know that I can check the LOD in the Reader. It is obvious now that you mentioned about it, but haven't though of that.

 

@1500another I call that a bleach effect and it is how default render is set up. However, it is good to note, that the SC4 game environment is very de-saturated.  Another thing which is obvious when it is pointed, but I did only recently noticed how de-saturated Maxis models really are. So to fit in the game, it is good that the colours look a little bit "washed out." Your model looks good in the preview. I haven't used GMAX for over a year, so I can't remember how different the preview and the in game was. The GMAX window views are ... well ahem, I better use a technical term ... Wonky, and that gives a pretty poor idea how the textures and the model looks in the game

Is there a tutorial somewhere or could one of you impart advice on how to bring down some of "washed out" look a smidge? Or is it not advisable? 

[rsc204 21,805]

The best help on how to create textures I know of is this:

 

[1500another 35]

I meant via lighting rigs, but thanks for the resource!

[MushyMushy 3,617]

Gmax naturally washes out textures, im not sure why but I suspect it's simply because the program is ancient. If you don't want to have to work with it in mind you need to set up 3DS and BAT4max for future projects.

That aside, in gmax to avoid the washed out look you need to darken your textures more than you actually want. It can take some fiddling around with them to make them appear how you want. You could ask madhatter because he uses gmax and through his texturing he avoids the washed out appearance.

[Gn_leugim 853]

On 01/08/2016 at 11:56 AM, T Wrecks said:

To be fair, realistic lighting with gmax is partly so difficult

Oh really?

regarding the gmax 3dmax debate all I say is: gmax (render engine) is more maxis like than that of 3dmax(mentalray). 3dmax look better? yes indeed, and more realistic, no argue, but away from the feeling that maxis generated in the game. you get that on gmax (or with other render engine on 3dmax donno)

nevertheless, very good start! impressive building you have there! my cheers to you.