Buildings - Employees - Traffic ??

[Dreadnought 8,227]

1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

FWIW, I would continue with what you have that is already working well. According to my physical disc versions of the games (I have both SC4 + RH and SC4D) the OS requirements are XP, ME, 2000, or 98. Why move on to another OS if everything you have currently runs your games? Once you get to Vista and beyond you might have to deal with the MS Borking patch for DRM. Or any number of other incompatibilities. Not that there aren't workarounds, but do you need the extra hassle?

The cynical side of me believes that while most of the OS programming team was working to add improvements, there was a small group who deliberately added little tweaks so older games would not run well (if at all) in an effort to cause peeps to have to buy new games.

I tend to agree.

I have well over 70 games that run on Win 2000.  And -- I am extremely partial to a bunch of Sid Miers' stuff as well as the Europa Universalis series and the Total War series.  (When I get tired of building cities -- I can go blow up a few as a change of pace! lol-lol)  Moving to -- say XP -- would allow me to use some of the newer lotting tools , and Nam 34.  But that would eliminate all of the games unless I have an entirely new computer built.

I am also not inclined to move to a newer OS because I'm stubborn.  I never have liked the Microsoft habit of releasing new software every couple of years.  Most games are never updated -- so you're stuck with new computers if you wish to keep the old games -- or losing the old games if you update your old computer.  Catch-22.  I still have an old 4mb, dos 6.0 machine because it runs a good naval wargame that no one has ever updated.  (Plus -- Microsoft is rich enough without getting more of my money!)

My gut feeling is to stay with "2000" and simply try to update the system for more speed.  But -- I will investigate building a new machine for XP -- just to see what the cost might be.

[CorinaMarie 29,813]

1 hour ago, Dreadnought said:

I still have an old 4mb, dos 6.0 machine because it runs a good naval wargame that no one has ever updated.

I fully understand. I have a bunch of old comps myself (of which I won't sidetrack your thread). Have you heard of DosBox? I played around with it a couple of years ago and I was thoroughly impressed.

[rsc204 21,839]

42 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

My gut feeling is to stay with "2000" and simply try to update the system for more speed.  But -- I will investigate building a new machine for XP -- just to see what the cost might be.

The thing is, updating a system rarely pays off in terms of performance. A RAM upgrade would be the most cost-effective one, but if Win 2000 simply can't utilise that new RAM (you'd need a 64-Bit OS/Machine), it's not worth it. Not to mention, specs change, old RAM types can be very expensive, if you can even find it.

A CPU upgrade would barely change anything. CPUs which are a couple hundred Mhz faster won't realistically feel any faster or deliver a sizeable improvement. However, a newer chip, even with the same clock speed can be much faster by comparison. Remember, not all 4.0l V8s provide the same performance, just as not all chips can be judged by their clock speed. Usually to use a newer chip, you've got to replace the mainboard. Maybe then your PSU (power supply) no longer is compatible, before you know it, you've replaced everything.

It's a minefield and frankly, not worth the hassle, but with a pre-configured used machine, buy well and you'll have no regrets. Plus it really needn't cost much more than $100. Why is that? Well, go to your local chain electronics store. I'll give you $5 if you can't find a brand new machine for $300 or less. It's absolute woeful crap, most likely dead shortly after the warranty ends. But most people won't spend $100 on a second hand PC, if a brand new laptop is $300.

Also, don't be afraid of a new OS, for a more modern PC to operate at it's best, the OS needs to be designed to support that hardware. Installing Win2000 on a modern PC, if it even worked at all, would just prevent most of the parts from running optimally. XP is Windows 2000, just improved a little. In fact, I don't know of a game on 2000 that doesn't run on XP, after all the codebase is the same.

That said, you really want a 64-Bit OS, even with the sort of machines I'm talking about, that extra RAM is going to make a huge difference. XP does have a 64-Bit variant, but driver support for it is woeful. Realistically (unless you are a sadist), that puts you into the realms of Windows 7. Indeed you may find some games don't play nice with Windows 7. But disregard the DRM-removal problem (you can work around it easily) and you'll likely find most things work just fine. Often you do need to do a bit of work to get things running though. I have plenty of old games on my shelf, provided they are 32-Bit code, Windows 7 doesn't technically prevent them working. DOS games and 16-Bit games (Win9x) may be a different story though. But even in those cases, usually things can be made to work if you are determined enough.

 

 

[CorinaMarie 29,813]

As usual, rsc provides good advice. Let me give you my consolidated interpretation as if it were for me:

1. Keep your current Win 2000 comp unchanged for those other 70 programs that already run well.
2. Have your computer guru friend put together an XP machine making sure he knows SC4's needs and quirks. Most specifically the video card needs to be one that SC4 can be made to recognize as fast and allow DirectX usage.
3. Or, buy a decent 64 bit Win 7 or 10 comp and plan to use a digital version of SC4 from Gog.Com. (Or the disc version can be made to work.)

 

[Dreadnought 8,227]

12 hours ago, rsc204 said:

The thing is, updating a system rarely pays off in terms of performance.

OMG, Dude !!!

You're just a ray of sunshine for an old, retired guy that supplements his fixed income grinding out magazine articles to make ends meet!!

That's OK -- I understand where you're coming from.  There just doesn't seem to be any short-cuts --

Okay -- I haven't bought a computer in about 7 years -- and I've never even looked for a used one.  YOU, on the other hand, seem to have an inside track on this stuff and you're very knowledgeable about how the components work together.  (I suspected I would have to upgrade with a myriad of knew parts if I tried to upgrade the processor.  I once dropped a 409 engine into a '57 Chevy -- which required a suspension upgrade and a new drive train, etc, etc.)

Sc4 is the only game I have that runs rough on my old machine, so this one would have to be geared specifically for Sc4.

Sooooo --

You know the game requirements and seem to have shopped the market.  Exactly how should the new machine be configured -- and where should I go looking for it ??  (I figure you know where to look and who to trust.)

[rsc204 21,839]

1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

Have your computer guru friend put together an XP machine making sure he knows SC4's needs and quirks. Most specifically the video card needs to be one that SC4 can be made to recognize as fast and allow DirectX usage.

How exactly is the person making the computer supposed to know what SC4 supports. Realistically, any card that's made with an NVidia or ATI chip after 2005 will be all you could ever need for a game like SC4. But guaranteeing that said card would work, there is just no way to be sure. Also, it doesn't matter if SC4 recognises it as fast, since you can always override this setting if it's not detected properly.

39 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

You're just a ray of sunshine for an old, retired guy that supplements his fixed income grinding out magazine articles to make ends meet!!

Well, I have been building them for about 20 years. Not just my own either, about 50 over the years perhaps? Add to that, I'm the guy that comes to your house and fixes your PC for peanuts when it goes wrong  - well if you aren't in the US perhaps .

I'm not saying buy this one. But something along those lines is a real bargain:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-ThinkCentre-M58p-E8500-3-16-Ghz-4Gb-250GB-DVDRW-Win-7-Ult-Office-2007-Pro-/112038937676?hash=item1a160a844c:g:e8UAAOSwM4xXb2i0

Honestly though, the CPU is worth more than the computer, I kid you not. It doesn't appear to come with a dedicated GPU. Not all of them came with one, adding one is possible, but they are a special size. I'd say it's 50/50 if the GPU in there would work with SC4. However, I could track down a GPU for it, probably run you less than $20 extra. I hope however this can at least show you what I'm talking about. On the other hand, if you could find one for your existing system, a new CPU would likely cost a minimum of $30-$50 and offer little advantage.

Make sure you are covered for eBay buyer protection. If it's DOA, you should then be covered. Also, a decent supplier will offer a minimum 30 days replacement. Honestly, if you don't find a problem in that time, you aren't likely to have any. Lenovo made the IBM lines for business just the same way IBM did. By comparison most computers are made with the cheapest parts a manufacturer can find.

[CorinaMarie 29,813]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

How exactly is the person making the computer supposed to know what SC4 supports.

One would expect this person is capable of reading.

There is information on the internet about the game's requirements and how to edit the appropriate files if the video card isn't one it already recognizes. Or simply install the game and test it before purchase. If this builder has multiple used comps there would be many parts to chose from.

[rsc204 21,839]

3 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

One would expect this person is capable of reading.

There is information on the internet about the game's requirements and how to edit the appropriate files if the video card isn't one it already recognizes. Or simply install the game and test it before purchase. If this builder has multiple used comps there would be many parts to chose from.

There is no list of supported cards, the information is much more general than that. Supported chipsets aren't the same thing, not to mention, we're 13 years on from that original list, which was not updated. 

The only way to be sure is to try it out and see what happens. If the guy doing it is a personal friend and has the hardware to test, no problems. If you have to walk into a store or buy a part somewhere, that's not going to work so well. How can anyone guarantee a GPU fully supports a specific PC game?

In theory, most cards should work. In practise though, there are simply too many variables to take account of, you just can't be 100% about it.

[Dreadnought 8,227]

2 hours ago, rsc204 said:

There is no list of supported cards, the information is much more general than that. Supported chipsets aren't the same thing, not to mention, we're 13 years on from that original list, which was not updated. 

The only way to be sure is to try it out and see what happens. If the guy doing it is a personal friend and has the hardware to test, no problems. If you have to walk into a store or buy a part somewhere, that's not going to work so well. How can anyone guarantee a GPU fully supports a specific PC game?

In theory, most cards should work. In practise though, there are simply too many variables to take account of, you just can't be 100% about it.

Yo --

I looked at your eBay special --

I'm sure I have questions -- but it's nearly 3am, here.

In the meantime -- run it buy me one more time.......

Looking at that model -- what will I have to buy and get installed before I can run Sc4 ??

See ya' in the morning --

 

[Dreadnought 8,227]

10 hours ago, rsc204 said:

The only way to be sure is to try it out and see what happens. If the guy doing it is a personal friend and has the hardware to test, no problems. If you have to walk into a store or buy a part somewhere, that's not going to work so well. How can anyone guarantee a GPU fully supports a specific PC game?

In theory, most cards should work. In practise though, there are simply too many variables to take account of, you just can't be 100% about it.

Yo, guy --

It's morning again -- as Cat Stevens once said.

OK --

I looked over the written stats on the Lenovo --

Keep in mind -- please -- you build them -- I think of them as "magic in a box".

There seems to be a lot of the components you mentioned in the machine -- and the price is right. 

I do see an awful lot of password safeguards -- which is not a term of endearment.  (Passwords are like a toothache waiting to happen!) 

I'm also concerned about the number of USB ports -- makes me think most of the accoutrements will be hooked up by USB connectors.  Requiring new mouse and keyboard, etc, etc. 

I'm not sure I see any way to hook up external sound speakers -- but that may be that I just don't understand what's on the printed page.  

I don't see the inclusion of a hard copy of Windows 7 or Office 2007 -- which might become difficult if the system ever goes down and needs re-installation.  (Which could possibly happen while modifications are being made -- I guess.)

The number of expansion bays seems ok -- only one 3.5 appears to be open.

Side note --

I assume this new rig would be able to run PIMX tools -- and maybe I would be able to experiment with RRW and RHW ??

Also --

I checked on my local computer genius -- haven't used him in about a year -- and he's moved on.  The really good ones never stay put it seems.

I do have a guy in town that runs a small computer repair shop.  He is reasonably priced and has done some repair work for me before.  The good side is -- I've never had to take anything back a second time.  I'm assuming that if you repair them -- then you must be able to take one apart and add stuff.  I'm not sure he builds them -- but I will check -- tomorrow when I'm in town.

Is a GPU what us laymen call a Graphics Card ??

How to tell if a card fully supports a game ??

I have had good luck with NVidia GeForce.  I assume any of their cards that meet the Maxis specified requirements would be suitable as long as it is compatible with the Lenovo.  Next best bet -- what do you run ??

Buyer Protection ?

You would purchase that at checkout -- right? (Never been to eBay.)

I will wait to hear from you -- but -- (hint, hint) -- tomorrow (Wednesday) would be a good day to make a final decision.

[rsc204 21,839]

1 hour ago, Dreadnought said:

I do see an awful lot of password safeguards -- which is not a term of endearment.  (Passwords are like a toothache waiting to happen!)

Do you mean on eBay? That's becoming normal these days. Rather than actually secure their systems (costs money), businesses would prefer to make your life more difficult so they are "seen" to be protecting you.

As for the system, these are just things it supports, you don't have to enable these features. But think about it, this was from a government auction. Whatever they used it for, almost certainly they did want this protection. That's another thing IBM/Lenovo are good at, security.

Quote

I'm also concerned about the number of USB ports -- makes me think most of the accoutrements will be hooked up by USB connectors.  Requiring new mouse and keyboard, etc, etc.

It's USB all the way, no PS/2 ports sorry . That said, if you are using a PS/2 mouse/keyboard, you must have had them a long time. Adaptors are available, so you won't need new equipment, but it's a couple more bucks to factor into the cost.

Quote

I'm not sure I see any way to hook up external sound speakers -- but that may be that I just don't understand what's on the printed page.  

See the green sockets, both front and rear, those are for headphones/speakers respectively.

Quote

I don't see the inclusion of a hard copy of Windows 7 or Office 2007 -- which might become difficult if the system ever goes down and needs re-installation.  (Which could possibly happen while modifications are being made -- I guess.)

The number of expansion bays seems ok -- only one 3.5 appears to be open.

You never get a disk anymore when you buy a system with Windows pre-installed. This has been the norm for a very long time. In 2003 I had to deliberately ruin my Windows install whilst it was under warranty. That way IBM would have to either fix my machine for free, or send me the disk I felt I should have got with an £1,800 laptop. They did the latter, but most PC manufactures did not have that level of customer service and wouldn't have been so easy. You should be able to make a recovery disk though, which allows you to restore Windows in the event of a problem. This will require a couple blank DVDs, but the machine has the capability to write DVDs.

Don't buy this PC if you want expansion bays, there are none. It's a small form factor PC, which is great in many ways, but upgradable, well it's limited. That said, unless you have very specific requirements, it really has all the ports you should ever need. I have literally no expansion cards in my PC, unless you count the GPU. Compare that to my PC's of the 90's and 2000's, which usually were bulging full of cards. Now everything comes on the mainboard, I really doubt it would be an issue.

Quote

I assume this new rig would be able to run PIMX tools -- and maybe I would be able to experiment with RRW and RHW ??

Absolutely, my previous PC was a Core2Duo, with a slower chip and the same amount of memory. Ran Windows 7 really well, SC4 was pretty decent too (slowdown is inevitable with big cities).

Quote

Is a GPU what us laymen call a Graphics Card ??

How to tell if a card fully supports a game ??

GPU = Graphics Card (or Video Card). Here's where we get to the difficult question. The on-board graphics are woeful, using a Q45 chipset from Intel. Does that mean SC4 won't work with it? Well SC4 really doesn't need much video power to work, so you may get lucky. Everything you do in Windows it should handle, but games, that's another story. The only way to know, would be to try it.

When I was looking at these systems in Europe for someone, I found many that included the optional add-on dedicated GPU, these tend to be ATI models. In the listing I see:

Intel GMA4500
HD3470 (RV620Pro) 256MB 64BIT ATX (VGA+DP)

If it comes with the dedicated board, then you would have both, but I suspect this one does not have that the additional HD3470 card (it's not in the picture). This system uses a special size socket, but has a dedicated GPU socket, One half-length, low profile-height, PCI Express x16.

ATI cards are fine, you might need to do some tweaking, but they should work fine with SC4. Of course if it doesn't come with it, you'll have to track one down and fit it yourself, not to mention pay extra for the card. That could add a bit to the cost so you need to be aware of this. However, so far I can't find one that includes this card with the machine.  (see below)

Quote

Buyer Protection ?

You would purchase that at checkout -- right? (Never been to eBay.)

I use eBay, I'm OK with it. eBay buyer protection means that if something goes wrong, you should see a refund. Since the seller doesn't get to decide, eBay do.

So to sum up. I chose this machine, because the CPU is one of the best you can get under the Core2Duo range. It's clock speed would be really beneficial when running SC4. The downside here is that I don't think it comes with the dedicated GPU. Whilst you can track one down, that may not be easy, plus you have to factor in the price, it might run you another $30-$40 or more. I'm trying to see if I can find one that has the GPU with it, but it seems (on US eBay at least) there is not one presently. I know the on-board graphics might not perform well with SC4, but it would work for the time being, it could also be enough. The E8500 CPU sells for more than the entire computer as a part, it's a great CPU.

I've just found this GPU which will fit, brand new in a sealed package too. But, that's going to add another $55 to your budget. I'll keep looking, you shouldn't be in a rush, stock like this changes all the time, with a bit of patience, what you need should come around eventually at a favourable price. However, I had an initial budget in mind of under $100 starting out, that does push us over that. But that's a really nice GPU, a second hand older model (which would be fine for your needs) would be cheaper. If I get lucky, I could find one for a couple euro's and send it to you. The problem is you need a very specific size card, so you need to be super-careful to check what you buy if you go down this road.

When it comes down to it, it's not my money, it's yours. If I were in your position, I would buy a Lenovo, for what you are spending, there is litter better out there. But the issue of the video card is not an easy one. I'm confident with time I can track one down for sensible money, say under $30, keeping us in budget. I'm equally confident with time, one will come up for sale that has both a higher-end CPU and includes the dedicated GPU. So at this point, you have to decide how to proceed.

[twalsh102 1,601]

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere else above as far as possible causes of performance issues, and after reading this:

19 hours ago, Dreadnought said:

I added a bunch of stuff to the system (water Mod, Terrain Controllers, Tree Controllers) and started a new region a while back.  The city I'm working on now is my first shot at a LARGE map tile -- I may not even be able to finish the city (not sure about that).

a possibility came to mind.

The following is from the description on the download page for Blunder's Cascadia Tree Controller:

"2.  Performance-  All tree controllers have a significant detrimental effect on your game's speed because of the large number of items they place in your city.  To make matters worse, this controller contains a large number of small and HD items placed closely together.  These factors mean that this tree controller will likely completely destroy your game's performance.  You can mitigate this somewhat by turning shadows to 'low' in your graphic settings while planting trees, and only turning the shadows back up to 'high' when you're done.

I HIGHLY recommend turning shadows to 'low' while planting, then turning them back up to 'high' later. 

Recommended minimum PC specs:

2.5GHz or greater CPU cores, 64-bit OS with the 4Gb address patch applied to the simcity4.exe file and at least 4Gb RAM. 

Tree controllers also usually behave oddly on multicore processors. Try setting your -CPUCount:1 tag in your desktop shortcut if you experience graphic 'jumping' while planting or other issues.  Note that this is not a universal rule, and some multicores actually handle the game quite well, so test as you will because your mileage will vary."

If you happen to be using this particular tree controller, based on your current computer's specs, this could very well be your problem.

As far as the problem you are having getting SIMs to take jobs at buildings where there are jobs available (or having enough residents to fill available jobs), there are a mind-boggling number of complex, interacting factors that come into play.  Here are just a few:

1.  The game counts only about 50% of the residential population as being available to take a job.

2.  Sims take jobs at other than just Commercial and Industrial buildings.  Almost every type of Civic building also provides jobs.

3.  The game does not consider commute time at all, before growing a particular building.  The game makes sure that there is enough demand for the necessary wealth levels and developer type.  Getting Sims to the available jobs is the mayors problem.

4.  Wealth level of a Residential Sim determines preferred mode of transportation.  An R$ Sim will try to use Mass Transit 80% of the time.  An R$$$ Sim will try to use a car 80% of the time.  These preferences are regardless of which mode might actually provide the shortest commute time.  The design of your transportation network must take this into account.

5.  Every building that has jobs, usually has a maximum capacity (or number of jobs) determined by the size of a building. Every building also has a wealth level (low, medium, and high).  The wealth level of a building doesn't necessarily mean that only jobs of that wealth level become available.  For example, every low wealth building (CS$, I-R, I-D) employs only R$ Sims (if you are using CAM, you can change this somewhat). buildings of higher wealth level are built,  different percentages of total number of jobs are available to Residential Sims of all wealth levels.  If there are not enough Sims of the appropriate wealth level available to take the available jobs (either because they don't exist, or because they can't get to those jobs in a reasonable amount of time), then the building will not reach maximum occupancy.  That's why it is impossible to compare two buildings based only on proximity and arrive at a coherent answer as to why the buildings have differing levels of occupancy.

6.  The Education Quotient (EQ) of Sims within a given wealth level - - - - - Okay, obviously I could go on and on here, and end up writing (actually rewriting) a book.  If you don't already have one, I highly recommend trying to find a copy of the "bible"  - Prima's Official Strategy Guide for SimCity 4 or the version for SimCity 4 Deluxe (both are unfortunately out of print).  I call this the "bible" because it was written not only with the acquiescence of EA Games, but with the active help of the SC4  development team.  Therefore you get a lot of info about much of the inner workings of the game

[Dreadnought 8,227]

2 hours ago, rsc204 said:

 

It's USB all the way, no PS/2 ports sorry . That said, if you are using a PS/2 mouse/keyboard, you must have had them a long time. Adaptors are available, so you won't need new equipment, but it's a couple more bucks to factor into the cost.

You should be able to make a recovery disk though, which allows you to restore Windows in the event of a problem. This will require a couple blank DVDs, but the machine has the capability to write DVDs.

GPU = Graphics Card (or Video Card). Here's where we get to the difficult question. The on-board graphics are woeful, using a Q45 chipset from Intel. Does that mean SC4 won't work with it? Well SC4 really doesn't need much video power to work, so you may get lucky. Everything you do in Windows it should handle, but games, that's another story. The only way to know, would be to try it.

When I was looking at these systems in Europe for someone, I found many that included the optional add-on dedicated GPU, these tend to be ATI models. In the listing I see:

Intel GMA4500
HD3470 (RV620Pro) 256MB 64BIT ATX (VGA+DP)

If it comes with the dedicated board, then you would have both, but I suspect this one does not have that the additional HD3470 card (it's not in the picture). This system uses a special size socket, but has a dedicated GPU socket, One half-length, low profile-height, PCI Express x16.

ATI cards are fine, you might need to do some tweaking, but they should work fine with SC4. Of course if it doesn't come with it, you'll have to track one down and fit it yourself, not to mention pay extra for the card. That could add a bit to the cost so you need to be aware of this. However, so far I can't find one that includes this card with the machine.  (see below)

So to sum up. I chose this machine, because the CPU is one of the best you can get under the Core2Duo range. It's clock speed would be really beneficial when running SC4. The downside here is that I don't think it comes with the dedicated GPU. Whilst you can track one down, that may not be easy, plus you have to factor in the price, it might run you another $30-$40 or more. I'm trying to see if I can find one that has the GPU with it, but it seems (on US eBay at least) there is not one presently. I know the on-board graphics might not perform well with SC4, but it would work for the time being, it could also be enough. The E8500 CPU sells for more than the entire computer as a part, it's a great CPU.

I've just found this GPU which will fit, brand new in a sealed package too. But, that's going to add another $55 to your budget. I'll keep looking, you shouldn't be in a rush, stock like this changes all the time, with a bit of patience, what you need should come around eventually at a favourable price. However, I had an initial budget in mind of under $100 starting out, that does push us over that. But that's a really nice GPU, a second hand older model (which would be fine for your needs) would be cheaper. If I get lucky, I could find one for a couple euro's and send it to you. The problem is you need a very specific size card, so you need to be super-careful to check what you buy if you go down this road.

When it comes down to it, it's not my money, it's yours. If I were in your position, I would buy a Lenovo, for what you are spending, there is litter better out there. But the issue of the video card is not an easy one. I'm confident with time I can track one down for sensible money, say under $30, keeping us in budget. I'm equally confident with time, one will come up for sale that has both a higher-end CPU and includes the dedicated GPU. So at this point, you have to decide how to proceed.

Yo, guy --

My mouse and keyboards are about 12 years old. (lol - older than dirt and twice as obsolete.)  But I was planning on buying a new monitor, mouse, and keyboard anyhow.

I'll get your expertise into play making that recovery disk when the time comes -- not exactly up my alley.

The Lenovo sounds like everything you could ask for -- and then some -- and cheap to boot!

I may have gotten confused at this point --

The machine might -- or might not -- have the dedicated GPU.  But not really likely.  

ATI cards -- just an alternative form of GPU ??  Like "onboard graphics" -- right?  Not as good as a GPU.

The GPU you linked on eBay is the right one for the machine -- just a bit more expensive than you planned.

Sooooo -- with the Lenovo and the GPU you linked, I should be good to go -- right?

If so, I will check with my computer shop guy tomorrow morning and make sure he has the skills to do the work.  If he can handle it, I'll buy the Lenovo and probably the GPU in the afternoon.

Just confirm the above points for me so I know I've got it straight.

Thank you for the advice, sir!

PS -- If you find the GPU cheaper --let me know ASAP!

 

[MushyMushy 3,618]

@Dreadnought - I thought I'd just throw this in now while you wait for rsc to reply: ATI is a brand name, actually (ATI Technologies Inc.). It's connected with AMD, and is Nvidia's rival in the GPU industry. As far as I know AMD retired the ATI name at some point.

[rsc204 21,839]

12 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

I may have gotten confused at this point --

The machine might -- or might not -- have the dedicated GPU.  But not really likely.  

ATI cards -- just an alternative form of GPU ??  Like "onboard graphics" -- right?  Not as good as a GPU.

Correct. The listing states it's only got on-board graphics, that's the Intel one, the pictures also show the add-on card is not installed. But then the seller lists the card as part of the listing. To be honest, usually you are best to send the seller a message and ask them to clarify. Since if it is in there, you don't need to buy another.

So an on-board GPU means that the computer comes with one built in. This is very common, but only recently have these built-in cards been any good. As I said, on-board cards are fine in Windows, but running anything that's taxing is where they fall down.

Adding a dedicated GPU literally means you are adding a second graphics card. The only reason you do this is because you want something with more power/capabilities. Although you will not want to use the on-board one, both will technically be there if you install it.

ATI is just a brand, like NVidia. ATI make great video cards, I've always preferred them (prepare for inevitable backlash *cowers*). @MushyMushy is right, they probably go by AMD these days.

Quote

The GPU you linked on eBay is the right one for the machine -- just a bit more expensive than you planned.

Sooooo -- with the Lenovo and the GPU you linked, I should be good to go -- right?

What's more important, the listing for the ATI card confirms it will work with the following models:

• ThinkCentre M58
• ThinkCentre M58e

Now technically, that doesn't include the ThinkCentre M58p (the model in question). But, it will physically fit the special small form factor of these PCs. That said, you will want to send them a message and ask specifically if that card supports the exact model you are thinking of buying. That way if it doesn't, they are responsible, not you. I'm pretty sure it would, since PCI-Express hasn't changed much over the years. PCI-E 2.0 cards should be backwards compatible with PCI-E 1.0 sockets in any case. (that's the physical connector the card needs to plug into on the PC). So the most important factor is that the card is small enough to fit in the case. That's what the text "One half-length, low profile-height, PCI Express x16" means. The card needs to be shorter and lower than typical video cards on the market, which again this one is.

Quote

If so, I will check with my computer shop guy tomorrow morning and make sure he has the skills to do the work.  If he can handle it, I'll buy the Lenovo and probably the GPU in the afternoon.

Adding a videocard for a computer guy is like asking a mechanic if he can change the oil of your car. If he can't, then he's not very good. It's really simple, in fact here's a video showing how for that actual system. The only setup for a new card is installing the driver in Windows afterwards. Everything else will work automatically.

[Dreadnought 8,227]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

Adding a videocard for a computer guy is like asking a mechanic if he can change the oil of your car.

Yo --

Now that I know it's nothing more than a video card -- I understand.  I could probably do it myself.

Both e-mails are sent requesting clarification on those points.

Now I wait for an answer to drop into my mail box -- 1 to 2 days -- supposedly.

So far -- so good.  (I always approach these things from the Murphy's Law angle -- I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.)

Thank you much -- will keep you posted.

[Dreadnought 8,227]

16 hours ago, rsc204 said:

The only setup for a new card is installing the driver in Windows afterwards.

Yo, guy --

One last question --

Keeping in mind the original game requirements and the new Nam Mod's -- what operating system is powering your Sc4 ?

I have a hard disk copy of Win 2000 -- but no disks for anything beyond that.  It suddenly occurred to me that I was going to have to remove Windows 2007 from the Lenovo and install something that will run a 12 year old game.

[MushyMushy 3,618]

SC4 isn't that picky about the OS. I'm assuming that Windows 2007 means Vista, and I know there are users currently running SC4 on Vista. I've run it on Windows 7 just fine across two machines and several years and as far as I've read there doesn't appear to be an issue with Windows 10 outside of hard copies not working.

So if the machine you're buying comes with Vista, I don't think you have anything to worry about in that regard.

[CorinaMarie 29,813]

1 hour ago, MushyMushy said:

So if the machine you're buying comes with Vista, I don't think you have anything to worry about in that regard.

Agreed. The disc version of sc4 can be run on Vista up thru 8.1 provided you deal with MS's KB3086255 DRM blocking patch. @rsc204 will be able to walk you thru that if it has been installed. You will likely want to keep whichever version of Windoze the comp comes with as it'll likely have the proper drivers installed for all of the comp's hardware. Earlier Win versions might not have the requisite drivers.

[rsc204 21,839]

The machine comes with Windows 7 pre-installed, perhaps you are confusing it with Office 2007 which is also pre-installed? Windows 7 is fine, in fact I'd advise you leave the OS alone, Windows 7 is probably your best OS for such a machine. The game's code will run fine on all newer Windows versions, including Windows 10, you have nothing to worry about.

You probably want to be careful of two things.

1. The DRM issue using the SimCity4 CD version.
2. Making sure Microsoft don't upgrade the machine to Windows 10 without your approval.

However both these issues are not too difficult to deal with. One just requires a script to run SC4, which I can give you. The second will likely stop being an issue when MS stop giving Windows 10 upgrades away for free (I still have a feeling they won't), because then they won't do the upgrade without your cash first. In any case, there is an application you can install that basically stops this happening.

 

 

[Dreadnought 8,227]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

The machine comes with Windows 7 pre-installed, perhaps you are confusing it with Office 2007 which is also pre-installed? Windows 7 is fine, in fact I'd advise you leave the OS alone, Windows 7 is probably your best OS for such a machine. The game's code will run fine on all newer Windows versions, including Windows 10, you have nothing to worry about.

You probably want to be careful of two things.

1. The DRM issue using the SimCity4 CD version.
2. Making sure Microsoft don't upgrade the machine to Windows 10 without your approval.

However both these issues are not too difficult to deal with. One just requires a script to run SC4, which I can give you. The second will likely stop being an issue when MS stop giving Windows 10 upgrades away for free (I still have a feeling they won't), because then they won't do the upgrade without your cash first. In any case, there is an application you can install that basically stops this happening.

 

 

Yo, guy --

(1)  You're right -- I confused OS with Office -- no probs.

(2)  Microsoft will not be doing any upgrades -- the machine will not be going "online".  My current gaming machine has been off-line for years -- and I like it that way.  All I have to do is screen downloaded custom content on my XP machine (online) to look for any virus issues before transferring to my old machine for game play.  I got a virus -- somewhere -- years ago, and I've been very careful ever since.

(3)  Exactly what is this "DRM" thingie ??  Is it in the game -- or in the Windows 7 program?

(4)  I have the original issue 2013 two disk installation of Sc4 Rush Hour / Deluxe.  There is an installation code with the game, but I've never run into a problem installing and operating the game on my old machine.

Glad to hear "2007" is a winner.  Obviously, I never kept up with Microsoft events beyond XP -- and no gaming on XP at all.  So this DRM thingie is new to me.

3 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

Agreed. The disc version of sc4 can be run on Vista up thru 8.1 provided you deal with MS's KB3086255 DRM blocking patch. @rsc204 will be able to walk you thru that if it has been installed. You will likely want to keep whichever version of Windoze the comp comes with as it'll likely have the proper drivers installed for all of the comp's hardware. Earlier Win versions might not have the requisite drivers.

Yo, Cori --

DRIVERS -- excellent point !!

Thank you --

[Dreadnought 8,227]

22 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Correct. The listing states it's only got on-board graphics, that's the Intel one, the pictures also show the add-on card is not installed. But then the seller lists the card as part of the listing. To be honest, usually you are best to send the seller a message and ask them to clarify. Since if it is in there, you don't need to buy another.

Yo, guy --

I received a reply from the Lenovo seller. 

The Lenovo does NOT include a dedicated GPU card.

I replied to him -- sent the link to the GPU card you recommended -- and asked specifically if that one would work in the machine.

I'm waiting for his answer.

I have not yet received a reply from the seller of the GPU card.

[CorinaMarie 29,813]

2 hours ago, Dreadnought said:

(3)  Exactly what is this "DRM" thingie ??  Is it in the game -- or in the Windows 7 program?

DRM stands for Digital Rights Management iirc. Basically there is some amount of information encoded on your sc4 (and many, many other) game disc. The program that runs this security check is a part of the Windoze operation system. (That's not saying MS wrote it (tho they may have), but it's a part of the OS package.) Anyhow, a while back MS was sitting around trying to think up new ways to annoy peeps and so they decided to write a patch which would disable this DRM checker thing. The patch was applied to Vista thru 8.1. So, peeps with old games (who's system got patched) which require the disc to be in the drive before they will run quit working. Lots of peeps were upset.

This functionality can be easily restored if that patch has been loaded on the comp you are getting. MS didn't actually delete the thing, just disabled launching of it at boot up. The requisite file is something like secdrv.sys in case you are curious.

[rsc204 21,839]

27 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

I replied to him -- sent the link to the GPU card you recommended -- and asked specifically if that one would work in the machine.

I'm not sure you'll get an answer you can rely on from the seller of the PC. Even if he says it will work, you can't hold him responsible if it doesn't.

[Dreadnought 8,227]

2 hours ago, rsc204 said:

I'm not sure you'll get an answer you can rely on from the seller of the PC. Even if he says it will work, you can't hold him responsible if it doesn't.

Sooooo -- since we can't rely on EITHER of the two sellers to tell me the truth -- I might as well buy the PC and the card and be done with it -- right??

[Dreadnought 8,227]

2 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

DRM stands for Digital Rights Management iirc. Basically there is some amount of information encoded on your sc4 (and many, many other) game disc. The program that runs this security check is a part of the Windoze operation system. (That's not saying MS wrote it (tho they may have), but it's a part of the OS package.) Anyhow, a while back MS was sitting around trying to think up new ways to annoy peeps and so they decided to write a patch which would disable this DRM checker thing. The patch was applied to Vista thru 8.1. So, peeps with old games (who's system got patched) which require the disc to be in the drive before they will run quit working. Lots of peeps were upset.

This functionality can be easily restored if that patch has been loaded on the comp you are getting. MS didn't actually delete the thing, just disabled launching of it at boot up. The requisite file is something like secdrv.sys in case you are curious.

Sooooo -- since I'm moving up to Windows 7 --- there is an almost guaranteed certainty that the hard disk game I paid for will not run on this new machine until I disable the DRM patch (which rsc204 says he can help me with).

Don't you love the new world of electronics.  They don't like selling you anything on a hard disk anymore because it is to their benefit not to.  And they've even found a way to disable the disks they have already sold !!!

The world is full of people going around shooting other innocent people --

We need to send them looking for the right targets !!!

[NCGAIO 562]

On 11/07/2016 at 4:24 PM, Dreadnought said:

.......................

My next city will be far less ambitious and will be built on a "regional concept"

I have not yet sufficiently developed the industrial zones -- but I will try to remember to drop a couple "arrow pics" over on the traffic thread you mentioned.

In the meantime -- I'm hoping someone can explain the traffic / employment irregularities.

If you want to have a good knowledge to perform SC4 with the principles for developing regions is indispensable  read the Prima Guide to understand the operation and especially the chapter on Regional  Development.
( If you do not find send PM. )

Regarding the lack of employment routes in a building between two others  that have jobs in fact have to be observed for a period of at least two or three months (run in cheta) to see if the condition is constant.

It can mean among other things that the simulator did not find jobs for the type chosen by the developer of the conditions for their occupation which varies from building to building.

  It is also important to remember that the convenience is a variable item and may be suitable for a lot and handicapped to a lot adjacent depending on how it affects the tract to which the lot is set.

( To  superficialy understand tract concept see here )

 - Query tool information on the Industrial buildings

As for the number of jobs as well as residents who are right in the query all represent the choice made by the building's creator  to their wealth levels and the left numbers  represents the maximum capacity that available at the time due to convenience factors affecting tract where the Lot is set.

Make sure the building is being used in its defined wealth type or if there was distress that can be perceived by more blackish appearance of the building or the fading of signs of wealth in the query.

Supposing that creator of building has be concern to set data to all wealth levels  can have up to three different capacities in the same building. ie:

Building set to type High Wealth 

$$$ - High wealth: $$$ capacity defined by the creator
$$$ - Med wealth: Distress 1: $$ capacity defined by the creator
$$$ - Low wealth: Distress 2: $ capacity  defined by the creator
 
Building set to type Med Wealth

$$ - Med wealth: $$ Capacity defined by the creator
$$ - Low wealth: Distress 1: $ capacity  defined by the creator

In all cases the actual occupation can only be seen through the development query  in the tract to which the building is placed.

Comercial example

Quote

| Query info for cell (23, 72) on 6/7/2112
| Lot: (24, 72) 2x3, east-facing, state: occupied new, configuration: CO$$$6_2x3_60001450
| Jobs $103,0 $$334,8 $$$77,2 - Travel Jobs $103 $$335 $$$77 - note: in this case is total of query route 
| Building: CO$$$44x26_6ChiOfficeBldg9_0507, 527 $$$
| Occupancy--building (tract): Co$$ 0% (0%), Co$$$ 98% (100%),

 Comercial distress example

Quote

| Query info for cell (52, 64) on 5/31/2222
| Lot: (53, 65) 3x3, east-facing, state: occupied distressed2, configuration: CS$$$6_3x3_60002a50
| Jobs $1621,0 $$0,0 $$$0,0 - Travel Jobs $1621 $$0 $$$0
| Building: CS$$$44x26_5HouLuxuryStore5_05EF, 171 $$$
| Occupancy--building (tract): Cs$ 96% (100%), Cs$$ 0% (0%), Cs$$$ 0% (0%), 
| Zoned: C###

Residencial distress example

Quote

| Query info for cell (5, 51) on 6/7/2112
| Lot: (6, 51) 4x2, north-facing, state: occupied distressed2, configuration: R$$$8_4x2_30000af0
| Jobs $0,0 $$0,0 $$$0,0 - Travel Jobs $0 $$0 $$$0
| Building: R$$$60x28_7HouHiriseLuxCondos9_01CB, 885 $$$
| Occupancy--building (tract): R$ 93% (100%), R$$ 0% (0%), R$$$ 0% (0%), 
| Zoned: R###

a note: Lotplop by cheats  has exactly the same behavior of plop any  plugins Lots. ie: Lots  does not create data on the especific tract to be considered by the developer in the simulation

[rsc204 21,839]

DRM = Control = Profit. If we as consumers keep buying products with DRM, we allow ourselves to be controlled.

24 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

Sooooo -- since we can't rely on EITHER of the two sellers to tell me the truth -- I might as well buy the PC and the card and be done with it -- right??

I can't make that choice for you. Perhaps it's worth looking at the refunds policy for the seller of the Graphics Card. But considering it's unopened, if you open it, I'm guessing there will be at minimum a restocking fee.

Perhaps better would be to speak to Lenovo. You could give them the part numbers and they should be able to tell you. Sadly though, here we are in 2016, I'm not sure how easy it would be to get their help, especially when they don't stand to profit from it...

I've been digging on Lenovo's Website, once more the question of compatibility isn't really well answered. So it states it supports all models of the M58 or M58e range (same as on the listing). Technically an M58p should be covered by that, but that's no guarantee.

Two factors are at play here:

1. Will the card physically fit in the case.
   Here is an M58 Machine, here is an M58e. As you can see, they too are the same small size, so if I had to guess, I'd say it would fit.
2. Is it compatible with the socket on the computer.
   Harder to be certain. As I said before, technically a PCI-Express 2.0 card should work in a PCI-Express 1.0 socket. But again, that's not a guarantee of compatibility.

Honestly, if I wasn't sure I could get my money back, I'm not sure I'd personally risk it. The people selling the card should know what they are selling. Not to mention, it doesn't bode well for their customer service if they don't respond to a simple question.

For example, here is a similar machine, which in the pictures does have a dedicated GPU. But, that's only in the pictures, the problem with these PCs is that there might be 100 or 1000 from one source. Not all of them will have the same parts. So you can't rely on the picture, you must check. However, it seems that it does have one. The step-down in clock speed to 3.0Ghz is probably not a big issue, otherwise it's much the same, bear in mind it also doesn't include Office, which you probably don't need anyway.

 

 

[Dreadnought 8,227]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

DRM = Control = Profit. If we as consumers keep buying products with DRM, we allow ourselves to be controlled.

I can't make that choice for you. Perhaps it's worth looking at the refunds policy for the seller of the Graphics Card. But considering it's unopened, if you open it, I'm guessing there will be at minimum a restocking fee.

Yo, guy --

DRM --

They've got you where they want you with the DRM.  If you want their game -- you buy it their way -- warts and all. 

I turned down a game I wanted very badly some years ago -- because they were asking $100 and did not provide a hard copy.  I still turn down games that can only be played through "the House" server.  They have too much control over your access, your wallet, and could go out of business on short notice.  If I pay for it -- I want to be able to come back to it a year later and play some more.

But -- I will contact you if I get this system up and running and find out I can't get the game started.  (Just out of curiosity -- what will happen when I go to install the game.  I'd like to know what to look for.)  You mentioned a script that would disable the function.

GPU CARD --

Sounds to me like the only way we would know for sure -- is if you were actually looking at the physical components.  And that's not a likely option at this point.

And -- I don't think we know the actual differences between the "e" model and the "p" model.  For all we know, they put a piece of chrome on the case and called it a "p" model.

I know I need the card, because the computer doesn't have one.

I'm going to go ahead with the Lenovo and the card.  If the card doesn't work -- I'll just have to find one that will.

[CorinaMarie 29,813]

1 hour ago, Dreadnought said:

(Just out of curiosity -- what will happen when I go to install the game.  I'd like to know what to look for.)

The game will install perfectly and you will think all is well. Then you go to run it and it acts like it'll start and then just disappears without even a useless, cryptic message.

1 hour ago, Dreadnought said:

differences between the "e" model and the "p" model.

E is prolly an Excellent model and the P is the Perfect one.