Major SimCity misconceptions dispelled

[VeritaScientia 150]

Many have said they want an offline SimCity, such a game would require much more code to adequately give the same feel of the online game’s economy. SimCity has been designed to be the first fully open-ended city-simulator that can promise completely unpredictable gameplay challenges tied into the market system, such a feature is impossible without thousands of lines of code which would rapidly bog down the performance of even the richest gamer’s rig.

Another downside many have cited is the city-tile size, such a restriction prevents slower computers from bogging down, furthermore, no SimCity game has ever been to realistic scale, EVER. SimCity has always been a game that bridges gaps between demographics, and creating a game that would only be accessible to those with higher-ended systems would go against the nature of SimCity as a game with a wide appeal. Whether or not there will be a way to expand the city borders is yet to be seen, and until such is confirmed to not be in the game, deriding the game for not having it is premature. There have been hints that expansion of city tiles will be possible by release, and if not by then, it may be included in an expansion.

Yet another common complaint I’ve heard the community demand from Maxis is the subways. Many have said it’s because they actually are giving us “SimSuburb”. Subways would necessitate an entire layer devoted solely to the representation of the subway tracks and trains, and the second, that players wouldn’t be able to easily see the subway working without switching to this layer. Maxis has designed this game so that players can see exactly what their city is doing with as little fuss as possible.

Yes, SimCity 2013 is a deviation from the previous games, but the man who developed the idea for SimCity had, many years ago, acknowledged that the previous games had worked themselves into a niche. However, that this game is a deviation from the SimCity norm does not mean this game is destined to fail, it means this game is a different iteration of the franchise.

  Edited December 19, 2012 by CaptCity  

[baertooth 330]

Many have said they want an offline SimCity, such a game would require much more code to adequately give the same feel of the online game’s economy. , such a feature is impossible without thousands of lines of code which would rapidly bog down the performance of even the richest gamer’s rig.

I don't buy this argument at all. Generating numbers is easy. And I really doubt there will be that much unpredictability in the market. Unless that's an admission by them they are going to allow the trolls and the trade guilds free reign on the market. Is that what they're saying?

Another downside many have cited is the city-tile size, such a restriction prevents slower computers from bogging down, furthermore, no SimCity game has ever been to realistic scale, EVER. SimCity has always been a game that bridges gaps between demographics, and creating a game that would only be accessible to those with higher-ended systems would go against the nature of SimCity as a game with a wide appeal. Whether or not there will be a way to expand the city borders is yet to be seen, and until such is confirmed to not be in the game, deriding the game for not having it is premature. There have been hints that expansion of city tiles will be possible by release, and if not by then, it may be included in an expansion.

When I started to play Simcity 4 my computer couldn't play the large maps. That didn't make me mad, but happy to know the game would expand for me when I got better hardware. And it did.

Why not make the small-medium-large map feature of SC4? Small maps for low end machines, medium maps for standard rigs, and large maps for power users and future expansion?

I think they did this because they want to make the game run on tablets as well so they sacrificed the PC performance to do that. And having different sized maps means they have to play balance the multiplayer side because small maps can't compete with big maps in terms of resources and I don't think they want to be bothered with that.

Yes, SimCity 2013 is a deviation from the previous games, but the man who developed the idea for SimCity had, many years ago, acknowledged that the previous games had worked themselves into a niche. However, that this game is a deviation from the SimCity norm does not mean this game is destined to fail, it means this game is a different iteration of the franchise.

Fail? No. It doesn't mean that. It does mean though if they want to sell NEW this game on the back of the past game then they should have done a lot more to appease the past customers otherwise why not call it by another name if it isn't because of the existing market they're hoping to tap? That would have prevented all of this. But they chose to use the cred Simcity has earned over the years to sell their NEW game, because lets be honest here, the core game play grind in this "iteration" is drastically different than previous Simcities.

I can just see the discussion taking place about calling it _Simcity_, how it seemed so logical to "reboot" the game and use the moniker that it first existed with. And I can totally see them never ever once consider what happened with Simcity Societies or Cities XL at all in any of their discussions. Especially the lesson with SCS and how if you're going to put out a Simcity game, make a Simcity game. We're ready for SC5 and we don't want any more "iterations".

Last, but not least, Will Wright and Maxis are wrong about Simcity painting itself into a corner. All they had to do was ship working cities with the game and/or make it possible for those that don't want to take the time to build a massive city to get one from someone whose willing to share theirs. That's all that it would have taken to fix SC4 and it's should have been what made SC5 that much better than SC4.

SC4 wasn't too complex (it's actually a really easy game), it was too big for the casual player. Those that have played know what I'm talking about.

[vortext 573]

Another downside many have cited is the city-tile size, such a restriction prevents slower computers from bogging down, furthermore, no SimCity game has ever been to realistic scale, EVER.

My beef isn't so much with the scale, or with the citysize per se, but with the gaps inbetween cities. Imagine a 2x2km CBD, surrounded with stretches of empty land - frankly, that's totally unrealistic. Or in other words, with this new SimCity it's impossible to build a sprawling metropole because of this restriction. I can understand the problems the developers wrestled with, it's just imho they should've tried harder to find a better solution.

Yet another common complaint I’ve heard the community demand from Maxis is the subways. Many have said it’s because they actually are giving us “SimSuburb” or some other ludicrously slanderous reason, while ignoring the real, and stated twofold reason: subways would necessitate an entire layer devoted solely to the representation of the subway tracks and trains, and the second, that players wouldn’t be able to easily see the subway working without switching to this layer. Maxis has designed this game so that players can see exactly what their city is doing with as little fuss as possible

That seems very unbelievable. The developers clearly take pride in all the different data layers they've incorporated into the game, e.g. the watertable, resource maps, crime maps, etc., etc. In fact, you've got to switch between layers regulary to keep track of what's going on in the city. So what's holding them back to make another layer for the subway? Seriously, most mayor cities have subways, even if it's only one or two lines.

[DmainEvent 195]

Another downside many have cited is the city-tile size, such a restriction prevents slower computers from bogging down, furthermore, no SimCity game has ever been to realistic scale, EVER.

My beef isn't so much with the scale, or with the citysize per se, but with the gaps inbetween cities. Imagine a 2x2km CBD, surrounded with stretches of empty land - frankly, that's totally unrealistic. Or in other words, with this new SimCity it's impossible to build a sprawling metropole because of this restriction. I can understand the problems the developers wrestled with, it's just imho they should've tried harder to find a better solution.

Yet another common complaint I’ve heard the community demand from Maxis is the subways. Many have said it’s because they actually are giving us “SimSuburb” or some other ludicrously slanderous reason, while ignoring the real, and stated twofold reason: subways would necessitate an entire layer devoted solely to the representation of the subway tracks and trains, and the second, that players wouldn’t be able to easily see the subway working without switching to this layer. Maxis has designed this game so that players can see exactly what their city is doing with as little fuss as possible

That seems very unbelievable. The developers clearly take pride in all the different data layers they've incorporated into the game, e.g. the watertable, resource maps, crime maps, etc., etc. In fact, you've got to switch between layers regulary to keep track of what's going on in the city. So what's holding them back to make another layer for the subway? Seriously, most mayor cities have subways, even if it's only one or two lines.

I know what you mean. I keep repeating the same solution over and over again, look up my posts if you want to know what I was talking about. But the point is there IS A SOLUTION to this. Maybe not my solution, but they COULD have done something. They CHOSE not too. Unfortunately, I will CHOOSE to purchase this game against my better nature. I know this game isn't worth the disc it will be printed on, but I just want to try it out. Maybe after it drops in price some..

[dragonsign 8]

looking forward to many years of sim-recession and austerity when the sim-market collapses.

[VeritaScientia 150]

I don't buy this argument at all. Generating numbers is easy. And I really doubt there will be that much unpredictability in the market. Unless that's an admission by them they are going to allow the trolls and the trade guilds free reign on the market. Is that what they're saying?

Yeah, getting numbers is easy, since most programming languages feature a "Randomize" function to do just that, however, creating as realistic an economy as is possible with multiplayer input is incredibly difficult. Any first-year programming student can slap together a rudimentary program to "simulate" an economy, but it will never be as true a simulation as is possible with multiplayer, oh and each one of those "randomized" variables also takes power away from other aspects of the game, since computer power is finite, not infinite.

That seems very unbelievable. The developers clearly take pride in all the different data layers they've incorporated into the game, e.g. the watertable, resource maps, crime maps, etc., etc..

That'd work, if data layers were capable of and designed for that, which all indications I've seen is they're not. Data layers are simple overlays, they're not designed to represent fine detail like the simulation is. Maybe I used the wrong word with "layer", they'd have to create an entire underground world, because I can see the whining already if they used a data layer to represent a subway.

[vortext 573]

That seems very unbelievable. The developers clearly take pride in all the different data layers they've incorporated into the game, e.g. the watertable, resource maps, crime maps, etc., etc..

That'd work, if data layers were capable of and designed for that, which all indications I've seen is they're not. Data layers are simple overlays, they're not designed to represent fine detail like the simulation is. Maybe I used the wrong word with "layer", they'd have to create an entire underground world, because I can see the whining already if they used a data layer to represent a subway.

True, they would've needed to develop the underground world, which reminds me of another issue; water and electricty traveling along the roads. . I know, I know, in RL tubes and pipes and what not oftentimes run underneath the roadsurface. Still, I'd like to have seperate control over those things.

Also, you might want to edit your first quote.

[VeritaScientia 150]

That seems very unbelievable. The developers clearly take pride in all the different data layers they've incorporated into the game, e.g. the watertable, resource maps, crime maps, etc., etc..

That'd work, if data layers were capable of and designed for that, which all indications I've seen is they're not. Data layers are simple overlays, they're not designed to represent fine detail like the simulation is. Maybe I used the wrong word with "layer", they'd have to create an entire underground world, because I can see the whining already if they used a data layer to represent a subway.

True, they would've needed to develop the underground world, which reminds me of another issue; water and electricty traveling along the roads. . I know, I know, in RL tubes and pipes and what not oftentimes run underneath the roadsurface. Still, I'd like to have seperate control over those things.

Also, you might want to edit your first quote.

Water and electricity were streamlined to go along with the agent basis of the simulation, had they included water pipes and electrical grids, that would have been two more agent-pathways that would need to be coded, debugged, and maintained, as well as two new potential fail-points. Most people would end up laying their water pipe under the roads anyway, and I'll go out on a limb here and say real-life mayors never, EVER get to decide where their city's utility infrastructure go, it may not even be controlled at the municipal government.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

1. I would be fine if they had no random number generator but rather had the offline market "AI" always have a fixed price near the floor and ceiling, like the Cities XL OmniCorp. That would make it possible to play offline but create a large incentive to play online or cheat.

2. How can one troll the global market? Trade Guilds and Cartels are features that the Maxoids discussed that they want to be in the game.

3. Adding subways means adding an underground view, means having a view where buildings are invisible, terrain translucent and water mains, sewage pipes, and subway tunnels and stations visible.

--Ocram

[cirugo 1,889]

Many have said they want an offline SimCity, such a game would require much more code to adequately give the same feel of the online game’s economy. SimCity has been designed to be the first fully open-ended city-simulator that can promise completely unpredictable gameplay challenges tied into the market system, such a feature is impossible without thousands of lines of code which would rapidly bog down the performance of even the richest gamer’s rig.

Another downside many have cited is the city-tile size, such a restriction prevents slower computers from bogging down, furthermore, no SimCity game has ever been to realistic scale, EVER. SimCity has always been a game that bridges gaps between demographics, and creating a game that would only be accessible to those with higher-ended systems would go against the nature of SimCity as a game with a wide appeal. Whether or not there will be a way to expand the city borders is yet to be seen, and until such is confirmed to not be in the game, deriding the game for not having it is premature. There have been hints that expansion of city tiles will be possible by release, and if not by then, it may be included in an expansion.

Yet another common complaint I’ve heard the community demand from Maxis is the subways. Many have said it’s because they actually are giving us “SimSuburb” or some other reason, while ignoring the real, and stated twofold reason: subways would necessitate an entire layer devoted solely to the representation of the subway tracks and trains, and the second, that players wouldn’t be able to easily see the subway working without switching to this layer. Maxis has designed this game so that players can see exactly what their city is doing with as little fuss as possible.

Yes, SimCity 2013 is a deviation from the previous games, but the man who developed the idea for SimCity had, many years ago, acknowledged that the previous games had worked themselves into a niche. However, that this game is a deviation from the SimCity norm does not mean this game is destined to fail, it means this game is a different iteration of the franchise.

OK...these are not misconceptions. They are facts about the game that have been confirmed numerous, numerous times. If you like them and want to give reasons why it's been designed the way it is then that's up to you but no one's misinformed about anything here.

[Hellken 1,658]

Hello VeritaScientia ,

We are not the ones misinformed here. The developers themselves have actually been giving us a pretty good picture of what to expect. (I thank them so MUCH for being patient enough to interact with the community.) YOU, however, are giving us YOUR unconfirmed reasons on why the game should be developed as it is.

There have been hints that expansion of city tiles will be possible by release, and if not by then, it may be included in an expansion.

Who said this? It's the opposite.

marcomsousa 69 points 12 hours ago

Since this is online, will there be a limit in the number of regions/cities that I can play?

MaxisKip 87 points 11 hours ago

Yes, we had to put a cap here. We learned a lot on Spore about this. You'll have plenty of save slots, which will allow you to create and manage many regions and cities. We haven't locked the number yet, but what I can say is that they are bound to regions. So if you created a 16 city region, you could play all 16 cities and that would be one save slot

This is all confirmed by Maxis' software engineer Richard Shemaka, who claims that having all these "components all interacting in real-time on a mid-range home computer" is practically a technical marvel.

He later confirms that there are technical limitations, however: each region is restricted to 16 cities because of a "client performance issue".

"The memory required to store information of more cities," states Shamaka, "and the performance required to show even bigger regions and additional cities is too much. 16 was just the number that met the budget."

No doubt mods will be released shortly after the game is released for fans to really let loose on the city sizes, but is that enough? Should Maxis not be working on this itself?

http://www.nowgamer....city_sizes.html

Many have said they want an offline SimCity, such a game would require much more code to adequately give the same feel of the online game’s economy. SimCity has been designed to be the first fully open-ended city-simulator that can promise completely unpredictable gameplay challenges tied into the market system, such a feature is impossible without thousands of lines of code which would rapidly bog down the performance of even the richest gamer’s rig.

First of all, Sim City (2013) is NOT open ended. You are given a limited amount of save slots. Once run out of save slots, you are stuck with what you have.

Q: Why are there save slots anyway? A: Because the game is always - online.

A lot of limitations this game has are mostly due to the fact that EA insists every game they make should have an online portion.

Yet another common complaint I’ve heard the community demand from Maxis is the subways. Many have said it’s because they actually are giving us “SimSuburb”. Subways would necessitate an entire layer devoted solely to the representation of the subway tracks and trains, and the second, that players wouldn’t be able to easily see the subway working without switching to this layer.

Really? Why is it wrong to have an extra layer for subways? Even SC3K Unlimited had a layer just for subways. It did it even better than Sim City 4 (no roads, zones, etc. when you view the subway).

By the way, many custom content underpasses were made possible because of subways.

Another downside many have cited is the city-tile size, such a restriction prevents slower computers from bogging down, furthermore, no SimCity game has ever been to realistic scale, EVER.

We want believable scales. Sim City (2013) does not even have "urban sprawl". If you have a Central Business District with many skyscrapers, why does it end in all that unused green space? (Oh, Online limitations)

SimCity has always been a game that bridges gaps between demographics, and creating a game that would only be accessible to those with higher-ended systems would go against the nature of SimCity as a game with a wide appeal.

Not everyone lives in a place with good internet connection. My internet gets cut every now and then. Why should I be able to play ONLY if I have internet connection? It restricts certain people.

=======

I respect the Maxis developers a LOT for interacting with the community and I am sure they put a lot of work into this game so far. But it might be too late.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

Another downside many have cited is the city-tile size, such a restriction prevents slower computers from bogging down, furthermore, no SimCity game has ever been to realistic scale, EVER.

We want believable scales. Sim City (2013) does not even have "urban sprawl". If you have a Central Business District with many skyscrapers, why does it end in all that unused green space? (Oh, Online limitations)

Although SimCity 4 may be underscaled, it allowed you to do this, something I call the Metropolis Illusion (create one large city with numerous of smaller ones):

DISCLAIMER: This is not one of my cities by the way. I do have a sprawl, but not this big. But this picture does show that the size of a city can be virtually endless using this method.

The SimCity 4 region were we fell in love with is not some modification: it was something we had back in 2003 at the release of SimCity 4 vanilla, and for me, it's one of the most addictive factors that keep me playing.

[SimCoug 5,972]

I agree, region play is one of my favorite aspects of SC4 - not only does it give you the ability to create a sprawling metropolis, but also vast farmland dotted with tiny towns, or even colossal mountain ranges with national forests... really, your imagination is the only limiting factor. I've seen many region shots from talented SC4 players that could easily pass for actual satellite photos. Unfortunately, it looks like SC13 will be more like playing a game rather than building a world. Games are fun for a while, but I eventually lose interest. SC4 on the other hand has allowed allowed my imagination to continually create new worlds and it has yet to get old.

[jason leo 485]

SimCity 4 is not a game IMO, it is something that I call as a tool to express my imagination, some of the best tool I have. SimCity, in another hand, just like others said earlier, is not more than a game, it's not the Simcity that we know.

  Edited December 20, 2012 by CaptCity  

[VeritaScientia 150]

I'd like to clear something up. I would love it if there were 32 square kilometer cities available for SimCity, I'd love to have subways too. This is not possible, however, because computers are not built with infinite power.

I will put this next statement bolded, underlined, and italicized, and in very simple language, so everyone can understand it: computers only have so much computing power to go around, that means that an overly large 3-D map with the level of simulation in this game is impossible at the present time.

As for the "expansion of cities" I never once meant for that to be more than 16, what I was meaning was that they may allow for city size to be expanded beyond the 2x2 square kilometer limit at the beginning.

Lack of true player control eh? I guess the new features, like being able to specialize in cities, building modules that can be custom placed, a complete lack of a grid, and other things don't count at all?

The scale in SC13 is marginally better than SC4 as far as I've seen, and it could be better.

It's not wrong per se to have a solely underground layer for subways, however, we are dealing with the bolded statement above. Not to mention the functionality of the subways is replaced by the trams. The tram takes up a bit more surface space than the subway networks have, but Maxis has also stated that the subways aren't conducive with the vision Maxis had for the game, that a player could see all their Sims going about their business and being able to see the traffic use.

Occram, I like you, but an artificial economy like you propose would lead to a game with no challenge beyond the first month because by then, the economic patterns would be easily discernable to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of how an economy operates. A player-driven economy will likely be stable, it's simple law of averages, if there's 10,000 players, only one of which is a troll out to skew the market, the 9,9999 other players would balance out the troll's impact, especially if the market-control software is designed right, and with the caliber of programmers EA has, I doubt they'll botch it.

Above all, I'd like to know why is it such a mortal sin for Maxis to balance this game's target market between the casual player and the established player? They've said they wanted the semblance and feel of this game to be similar to that of the original SimCity because simplicity will get a young generation of new fans, new fans are a good thing, and the young new fans have had the internet for most of their lives. Personally, I have a feeling its primarily selfishness, but that's just me.....

Think of it like this: developing a game targeted at teenagers without an online component nowadays would be like shooting a television show using black and white cameras in 1977, in other words, it'd be nearly anachronistic and within a few years would be totally out of date and behind the times.

  Edited December 20, 2012 by CaptCity  

[Ocram's Razr 963]

In Cities XL, if you trade exclusively with OmniCorp, (which was the only possibility in offline CXL original/2009) you would have to run a huge trade surplus to remain profitable. Since you can trade with other cities in the region, things would be easier because you can run a minor trade surplus and be mostly self sufficient while running a profit. Cities XL 2011 opened up trade between your own cities and made OmniCorp slightly less extortionist and the game became easier. Therefore, depending in the floor and ceiling of the prices, you could easily make a "gimped" single player that would encourage online play. Maybe even set the limit for total resources for the Global Market at 9999 each or something. In the online game, prices would fluctuate but remain near the centre, in the offline game, the player would always be at a disadvantage because importing prices would be by the ceiling (unaffordable) and exporting prices would be by the floor (unlivable). This method will certainly anger some but not as many as no offline component at all. Now, as we all fear, the Maxoids say that the Global Market is a requirement so they cannot easily fake it with unfair numbers.

--Ocram

[snick25 384]

Lack of true player control eh? I guess the new features, like being able to specialize in cities, building modules that can be custom placed, a complete lack of a grid, and other things don't count at all?

Stuff CXL already has. Sure, SimCity expands upon the "specialization" aspect, and the building modules are a nice touch. But the constricting map sizes, lack of highways and other transportation features, as well as the inability to add or change anything in the no-man's land, give one a severe sense of restriction and lack of control.

The fact remains that, with these restrictions, you can build nice towns, even towns with dozens of skyscrapers, but you can NOT build an actual city. Certainly not as the name "SimCity", with both it's literal and connotative associations, implies.

[cirugo 1,889]

Think of it like this: developing a game targeted at teenagers without an online component nowadays would be like shooting a television show using black and white cameras in 1977, in other words, it'd be nearly anachronistic and within a few years would be totally out of date and behind the times.

No one's complaining about an online component. They're complaining that it's the ONLY component.

[CaptCity 4,752]

Another reminder to discuss the topic and not make comments directed at another. Those who appear to like aspects of the new game have the same opportunity to post without receiving the same type of sarcastic and snarky comments that those who don't like aspects of the game often complain about - yes, there has been editing of posts. So keep it on topic, please.

[kgw_games 11]

I'd like to clear something up. I would love it if there were 32 square kilometer cities available for SimCity, I'd love to have subways too. This is not possible, however, because computers are not built with infinite power.

I will put this next statement bolded, underlined, and italicized, and in very simple language, so everyone can understand it: computers only have so much computing power to go around, that means that an overly large 3-D map with the level of simulation in this game is impossible at the present time.

It is possible. You tile the entire region with 1x1 tiles and allow any 2x2 to be selected for viewing and editing.

What is not seen only needs general computation not simulation.

Navaigation to adjacent tiles drops the tiles on the other side.

With the restrictions of 2x2 and not being able to develope near the edge they should call it SimVillage.

[BravoGreenONE 120]

Yeah this should be a no brainier for Maxis. OK I understand they believe that a 4x4 cannot run on the average computer. But sc4 did not simulate an entire region at a time. It was tile by tile

[MandelSoft 2,769]

Above all, I'd like to know why is it such a mortal sin for Maxis to balance this game's target market between the casual player and the established player? They've said they wanted the semblance and feel of this game to be similar to that of the original SimCity because simplicity will get a young generation of new fans, new fans are a good thing, and the young new fans have had the internet for most of their lives. Personally, I have a feeling its primarily selfishness, but that's just me.....

The point is that they say explicitly that they market this game also on old fan...

"Kip Katsarelis (MaxisKip) - Senior Producer – Expert on all things SimCity" -

"

This is definitely

a game for the hardcore fans

. When we started this project, we looked at previous SimCity games and evaluated what made them great. We looked at fan sites,

spoke with fans

, looked at reviews, and looked at what the SimCity 4 community was up to. We wanted to make sure

that we delivered on the core values of SimCity

. Probably the most important pillar of the game has always been simulation and that's where we put the bulk of our efforts. We felt if we did satisfy our core audience, then why make it."

souce:http://www.reddit.co...gk71q?context=5

...but by dropping a large number of features where people fell in love with, it doesn't fullfil that purpose. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a message we try to get across. For instance, like I showed here, the old region play was perfect: only one tile gets simulated at the time actively, so you can have very large regions that still work within the limited processing power of your PC. SC4 even used quite some tricks to save processing power, one of which was the simple pathfinding (the complex pathfinding has been re-activated by the NAM when the average PC was powerful enough).

I don't say SC4 is perfect. I mean, there are still quite some annoying bugs that we can't correct (the TE lot over Puzzle Piece CTD, the Prop Pox), but so far, it's the only game I've played for more than one year straight, spanning an impressive 6 years and counting! In that time, I worked on 4 regions, did quite extensive modding and still I'm not done with it yet. Over the time, I've learned more realistic urban planning skills and not only do I build larger cities that extend beyond city tiles, but also vast farmlands new ways of building motorways, airports and harbours. The massiveness of the region makes it all worth it and with all these side-by-side tiles, it forms a larger whole. I don't think most people won't achieve that with the new SimCity due to its limits...

Best,

Maarten

[Hellken 1,658]

I'd like to clear something up. I would love it if there were 32 square kilometer cities available for SimCity, I'd love to have subways too. This is not possible, however, because computers are not built with infinite power.

I will put this next statement bolded, underlined, and italicized, and in very simple language, so everyone can understand it: computers only have so much computing power to go around, that means that an overly large 3-D map with the level of simulation in this game is impossible at the present time.

Lack of true player control eh? I guess the new features, like being able to specialize in cities, building modules that can be custom placed, a complete lack of a grid, and other things don't count at all?

This is barely an argument on why subways cannot be included. Most of the constraints and compromises are self - inflicted decisions.They insist on simulating every single SIM you see (including SIMS playing at home, going to the casinos, etc). They also insist on simulating every city on the map in real time.

I have nothing against those decisions but it becomes so painfully obvious that their servers cannot handle it and most PCs won't be able to handle all these major simulations without major compromises. I don't even want to write here about how many things they already compromised since there are threads here for that. They are missing the forest for the trees.

They even decided to put limits on save slots. They also decided to "ration" how many regions you may own. Good luck with that. That is a clear sign to me that this game will have an inevitably short life span. If they are going to compromise THAT much, they should re - think their strategy.

SC (2013): Some steps forward. Many steps backward. I am not trying to be harsh or mean. The developers have many good ideas here and there. Ultimately it is just a question of which ones to prioritize.

The developers have taken a lot of time to interact with the community but EA is deaf.

The scale in SC13 is marginally better than SC4 as far as I've seen, and it could be better.

Please look at some people's CJ's here or the "Show us Your Region" threads in Simtropolis or sc4devotion.com. Some of the better players have been able to make regions that look like satellite images.

Then look at this:

https://i.imgur.com/Q74s5.jpg

The main difference is really simple. SC4 lets you control ALL the space in your region. SC4 is far from perfect but this allowed people to have 100% freedom to "terraform" and control the look of the whole region and not just the cities [This feature is missing in SC (2013) ]. I can even have tiles with no people or buildings - just snow, mountains, rivers, trees and MMPs.

The problem with SC 2013 is that you have a "pre - set" region with all these 2x2 "circles" which are not connected to each other. From afar they look like "bubble cities" connected to each other with "lines" and "webs" (pre - set neighbor connections). There is also no "urban sprawl". Instead, you have empty spaces everywhere. This is why the region scale is not very convincing to the human eye.

It's not wrong per se to have a solely underground layer for subways, however, we are dealing with the bolded statement above. Not to mention the functionality of the subways is replaced by the trams. The tram takes up a bit more surface space than the subway networks have, but Maxis has also stated that the subways aren't conducive with the vision Maxis had for the game, that a player could see all their Sims going about their business and being able to see the traffic use.

So what on earth is this "vision" that Maxis has? Don't compare trams and subways. That is like comparing apples and oranges. They have their own functions and limitations.

Your only argument against subways (again) is: "WE have to see our SIMS play in their gardens and we need to track all 200,000 people". That's a non sequitur. You are arguing for and against two different things here. I think watching and tracking ALL ~200,000+ Sims is lovely, but it is an UNNECESSARY compromise. That is exactly one of the things that needs a lot of computing power. The game needs to keep track of ALL these people: where they live, their ages, their names, their school/work. Now the game also has to factor in crime, education levels, health, etc. It also needs to collect data for ALL individuals as they grow old, marry, and die. All of these things are changing every second you play. The game has to keep making these calculations every second.

I think it sounds great on paper. But the developers sacrificed too much in terms of the overall scope of the game.

[Skyrunner27 23]

The problem with subways is not that they have to make a new data layer, it is because all transportation are 3D meaning that they would have to create a station that could go underground at a fixed point. Pretty much with the 3D paths being able to make a tunnel any where what happens when you raise a subway above-ground.

[Cobraroll 138]

I think this topic can be summed up like this:

SimCity 2013 is not designed to be the game we want. It's designed to be the game EA wants, with all the restrictions that apply.

Maxis are doing their best to make the game work within the specified design model, but with the way the fundamental rules of the game are set up, they run into many obstacles. With a different design model, we could have that SC4 on steroids we all dream about. With this design model, we get... well... SC2013.

Always-online, always-Origin is required because the Global Market is such a fundamental part of the game, they say. I rather say, the Global Market is such a fundamental part of the game because somebody wanted the game to be always-online and always-Origin to begin with.

The increased focus on resources, on expense of the tile size of the cities, is another (but largely unrelated) example of this thinking. Maxis saw it as more important to focus on resources than making vast, sprawling cities. Perhaps this is linked to the Global Market strategy (above), perhaps it's just a poor design choice. Either way, huge cities are sacrificed so we can get detailed cities instead. We may not like it, but perhaps a majority of other gamers will enjoy trading resources and playing a game of finance, or focus on the inhabitants of the cities instead of only the "big picture" we've got from earlier SimCity installments, rather than growing and trimming the city of their dreams (which, arguably, is what this website is dedicated to, so we might all be a little skewed in that regard).

[Urban Cartographer 601]

The Global Market is an excuse for making the game forced online with many restrictions such as limited save slots (for balance), limited city sizes (also for balance), and gaps between cities (to reduce strain on the system), and many others as well.

A 100% offline SimCity game would be a better option, since it would have greater longevity and more abilities to mod the game. I know that there is a problem with piracy, but DRM generally harms legitimate users much more than pirates, which is a major problem. I condemn pirating software.

  Edited December 21, 2012 by CaptCity  

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

If what a computer can do restricts what kind of game can be created then we are in big trouble. As I said in another post, we do not need the CPU or simulator engine to be creative for us. We just need the creative tools that allow us options that have countless possibilities. I'm a painter and all I need are the three primary colors, black, white (that's only 5 tubes of paint) and some good paint brushes and a canvas. From that small order I can create an infinite range of subjects in infinite  combinations. Though SimCity 4 have some limitations, I feel like after 10 years I'm still barely scratching the surface with what I can create with it. The canvas and the modest tools given to us 10 years ago could run on a P4 system. How is it that here in 2013, not even a little bit more can be given to us with the rigs we have today. The limiting design was not made by some necessity, but by design indeed. Every design has a purpose. So what was the purpose of this design? Was it made for me to have creative freedom and play SimCity as I been since the 90s? Obviously no. Restriction is a weak excuse when having the opportunity to create something from the ground up.

 

As for the market system, that market system is made for multiplayer purpose. A single player mode does not have to share that same model if I am not socially trading with anyone.And why does the money transfer have to be "simulated via a truck that gets stuck in traffic? It sounds kinda cool on the surface but it can quickly turn into a bad joke with those singular safety hazard one way in and out pre-made highways. Why does the water and power have to be agent based?  When was the last time you watched a glob of water travel through a pipe? It's all fluid and move as one so the whole system is one organism. SC4 system makes more sense to me and takes up less CPU power but for this, the focus on building a city or world was sacrificed? I don't think they are that stupid. This was done on purpose to push this online thing maybe because farmville on facebook is so popular. This was never about designing to cater to fans despite them pretending to. So any argument that tries to justify their design decisions because of system limitations and today's technology etc. is something I'm not buying.

 

Edit:

But let me not be a hypocrite when it comes to "specializing".  This is a niche audience as is many other aspects of life and for anyone to delude themselves and think you can just let any and everyone into every and anything is so anti-cultural. Everything has it's place and the only new players this niche needs are those who want to join us in what we know, not destroy what we know for the sake of getting new players. Because then what would it be that they come into other than a false advertisement if what was is destroyed.