Jason's BATs & Tutorials

[GMT 389]

nice work here

[SimFox 801]

I love the Black building!!! It screams CITY!

About the Modern and its skylight, I think what you should do is to take a look at it's geometry (I mean skylight) cause as it is now it is not very plausible. I mean glass panels (those are glass, right?) at the corners couldn't be of this shape. There should be sort of beam/frame running from apex of the skylight to the corners. It would make it much more right. Another thing, if I may, try to not elevate it above the flat roof, but instead to set it down into it. this could make for more interesting landscape.

I see you've solved texturing problem with Pylon, did you use old geometry? Or remodeled it?? I think you wouldn't have any problem if you would loft it. it would've set right UWV maps right in the process of generating geometry... This is just a hunch... I think I remember some tutorial talking about it. Not sure if the twist could be set right there and then though…

[Jasoncw 11,840]

heheh, thanks.

The problem with the pylon turned out to be very simple.  I didn't have any height segments, so when it got twisted, it got twisted very weird.  When I added a bunch of height segments to it, the curve evened out and the uvw map worked too.  Adding the height segments created a result that is similar to lofting it.

Yeah, the skylight is the original reason why I didn't render it way back then.  All I needed to do was replace it (which wouldn't take very long), and then I would have rendered it.  If I still had the file it would be fixed and rendered, and already sent to T Wrecks by now.

Oh yeah, and another building I've been thinking about doing is the Vanity Ballroom.  This building is pretty messed up and I don't think anything is ever going to happen to it.  To be honest, if it was rennovated it might as well be torn down and rebuilt.  There's at least one peice missing of every peice of stone, so they'd all need to be remolded anyway (and the parts they didn't replace would still look bad), and the rest is just simple brick work.  The entire first floor would need to be completely redone, and I'm sure everything else on the building would need to be redone too.

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=129290219&size=l

The building in real life would be a 2.3x2.3.  I could either make it fit a 2x2, and it would be closer to the sidewalk like it is in real life, but slightly smaller, or I could put the building on a 3x3.  Then the building would have a lot of sidewalk (and probably some trees) next to it, unlike real life, but then there would be space for the back alley and the building would be done to scale.

I think, especailly with the details being compacted with the small render, that it would look very rich and bold and exotic, so very art deco.

[nofunk 1,933]

Jason, that building is beautiful! I think you should BAT it.

Also, it's a shame to hear about the Modern Bldg. that was a really nice-looking building (minus the wonky skylight lol)... :-\

[DuskTrooper 314]

*Medrools profusely...*

What else can I say? Great work as usual!

And the loss of the Modern Building is a shame!  I hope you can get that one back, or whatever!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Thanks

Another BAT I was thinking about doing is the DMC (Detroit Medical Center) Detroit Receiving Hospital.  It would be a 10x13 hospital lot.  I think it might be too big and complex for me to have fun BATing though.

But yeah, I'm really leaning towards the Vanity Ballroom.  First I want to finish the Penobscot Building though, lol.  I'll try to resist starting a new project.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I think it's a new page!

[jacqulina 162]

some great work here

[baldy 0]

If I could just add my 2 cents for future Detroit BATs, I'd suggest the Detroit Athletic Club and Detroit Police HQ. I think the game needs a good a police HQ, and the DAC could boost health. No matter what you do, though, I'll be happy! Thanks for your hard work.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Thanks!

Yeah, the Police HQ would be a good one.  It's a classic american downtown police station.

[Odainsaker 2,134]

The Vanity Ballroom is so stylishly rich and awesome...go for it! On those days when the Penobscot Building acts uncooperative, you can play with something small yet opulent. Even more interesting is that it would be like a virtual renovation of a building deserving a second chance.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

The Vanity Ballroom would be good.  I've been thinking about it since June or so.  The only problem with that one is that I don't have any reference photos of the back alley, and I don't really want to go take any, lol.  I don't think the alley is very important with this one though.

Another building I've been thinking about is Chase Tower (or whatever it's name actually is).  It's across the street from the Penobscot Building, and nearby the Vinton Building and One Woodward Avenue.

It's sorta big, but I think it'll be easier since it's so repetetive.  I think I can array almost the entire thing, lol.  Plus, I don't think there will be much of a reference photo issue, since when I was taking pictures of the Vinton Building, I also took pictures of this building.

Ok, I've gotten 211 West Fort and One Woodward Avenue sorta working.  There was this problem with it getting really dark and brown, but I fixed it.  Now everythings really really bright, and the shadows aren't as strong as they should be.

They're both 90% re-textured, 90% modeled (there are a few things I still need to do to both of them), and have none of the nitelites started (except for the windows).

[Hanson784 165]

Excellent work Jason!

At first I thought they were photos cut out from Local Live, they look so photo-realistic. Though, they are a bit bright. Nevertheless, great work.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I've been working with Ardecila to get things looking right.  Since then a lot of progress has been made.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3947/211prev3xb3.jpg

A before and after.  There's a problem with the black lines you can see.  It's actually a seperate box that's rendering really dark for some reason.

[bixel 1,223]

yup that is indeed VERY bright hahahahah...model looks good though.

[spa 968]

Great work Jason. I really like the long narrow building (One Woodward?). A very different style than what you've done in the past. As usual though your window textures are excellent. Besides darkening it up, this one looks almost ready to me.

[SimFox 801]

I would again disagree with public opinion... I think people jump to judge to quick and also there are few mantras that everyone keeps repeating, TOO BRIGHT is one of them... first of all I think Too bright should be scrapped all together... Blown Out should be used instead. Blown out in photography means that no color has left in image or part of the image and it has been replaced with pure white - RGB255;255;255. With default rig that was the problem with LIGHT color schemes. But that was problem with that rig here we are clearly not dealing with it. Just go and check for yourselves and see there isn’t any area of any significance that would have PURE white value. So image is NOT overblown. And as such is perfectly valid. I may be adjust to the degree, but as is it represent WHITE building, which were almost absent from the game because of the limitations of the lighting setup used ages ago when game was developed. The simple fact that something wasn’t in the game in first place doesn’t automatically mean it shouldn’t ever be introduced. Leave this option for people making BATs and for users downloading them.

Also it should be judged in the scene. I mean when it is already exported into the game.

I think this is fine white marble clad building. If desired it could be a bit weathered, but as a start it is fine! What may be altered a bit is the lighting rig itself… Sky light could be reduced in power somewhat and may be stronger blue tint introduced, while stronger warm tint introduced to the “sun”.

Another thing that could stand a bit of improvement is the glazing… With old setup overall dullness of the image hid the dullness (unrealistic one) of the glass. Here it stands out… It looks like it was painted over. Look at the glass at the real world. One very characteristic feature of it would be that it is often darker in sunlight and brighter in shadows then surrounding materials. Also, colors of reflection normally has high contrast. Basically it is feature of all smooth/polished highly reflective materials. You normally don’t see them, but something they reflect.  To remedy this situation you should simply make GLASS, not painted plain. Meaning it has to be reflective. And it should be Fresnell (or something approaching it) reflection. Then you’ll start to see those contrasts and the whole building will come to life. There is still a big problem with reconstructing something that is completely glazed – like LIPPO center. As one huge mirror like wall would betray the rendering process. But at building like this one it would work fine - no actual reflections could be made out from this broken surface. Of course it is also possible to go “old fashion”  way and simply paint the texture with higher contrast. But then still it would be same in both shadows and direct light and it wouldn’t really look right.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Here's the latest render:

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/4424/211prev4yu5.jpg

It's been made sharper.

Things that still need to be done:

- Shadows need to be made darker and fuzzier.

- The black box needs to be fixed.

The black box is a problem that I completely do not understand.  The building was modeled so that the columns at the bottom and the crown thing at the top are seperate objects than the rest of the building.  The windows are planes, and those white "frames" around them are also seperate objects from the rest of the building, but they are grouped together.  These window units are positioned infront of this big box that is the main body of the building.  This is the box that is showing up black, as you can see above.  All of that white is the same material, and has the same uvw map.

For advanced lighting I'm using Radiosity, and the solution is 90 something percent.  Everything was blown out (I guess that's the correct term) before I did the solution thing, and it was good after I did it, although I'm still not sure what radiosity and the solution really are.  So I'm guessing that this is what is causing the problem (while fixing another).

Simfox, how do you make such materials?  I see things like marble and wood, but not glass.  But anyway, I'll worry about that kind of stuff after I get the overall shadows and stuff how I want.

[SimFox 801]

well let's see...

first of all why do need that black box in the first place??

Second... what version of Max are you using? I don't really think that radiosity is a way to go...

Your sky is too bright and too white.. and you sun is also too white... make sun warmer and sky cooler then you shadow will look more realistic. Currently your Sunnyside white and Shadowside white are of same temperature - that is plain wrong! just look at the real world for clues.

Fuzzy shadows.. well those are shortcomings of original rig.. they are responsible for all those floating elements that aren’t visually attached to either walls or roofs and are not more then shapeless blobs with almost NO resemblance to the objects supposedly casting them. Why do you want to perpetuate this – mystery... I would say good riddance!  If just to be like the “original” stuff... well that’s your choice, but then most of the improvements to the game would never have been made…

But if you still want to keep your shadows - being really shadows and still have some softening to occure then you should use so called area shadows. But those could be very significant hit on the performance and not really justified. As they would be realistic only over relatively big distances or at sun set very low in the sky.

Materials wise… this is somewhat render specific.. tell me your MAX version and I could advise you then on what to use. But those you’ve specified.. well I would say forget about those… it really wouldn’t do you any good, trust me you’re sooo past those.. textures you’ve been making are lightyears ahead of that bunch!

[st louis dude 6]

BTW,did you finish the penobscot building?

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Hmm may i su8ggest that extra peachyness obtained with the 10% opacity pastel red overlay over the white texture (i think you taught me that) Just to blend it into the game

[Glenni 1,444]

sky?what the heck? buildings from this angle reflect the ground!lol nice work though.

You might be the master of old style buildings,but man, you aint good with them 60's come on,dirty it up some more jason,it might be white in real life but it needs stains and such to fit in sc4.

[Fledgeling 1]

He is recreating detroit. Give him a break. Let him do what he wants.

Way to give positive support guys.

Jason, I think they look great.

P.S w ehavnt heard much about the penobscot building, but jason's good at keeping us updated. So what do you think.

 

[Glenni 1,444]

there's a thing called constructive critism,heard of that? i wasnt flaming him or anything ,but joking with him,sure he understand,its posts like yours that has no point,by not pointing what can be improved,what is good,what is not good...etc..

[Jasoncw 11,840]

ok, so I started writing this post after SimFox posted, and then I started playing video games.  Then I came back, and there were more posts, so I responded to them, but then I ate dinner, and then I came back and there were more replies, so responded to those, and now everything is responded to, so here's the long post:

SimFox: 

The box is part of the building, lol.  it's supposed to be a white box like the rest of the building but it shows up black for some reason.

Version 8.  I'm using Radiosity now because when I was changing all of the settings around, that's the setting change that fixed the problem.  When I try to render with the Light Tracer it stops rendering part way through the render (or it just gets mega slowed down), so I cancel the render.

I'll have to try and adjust them.  I remember your thread has information about, so I'll go check that out.

I guess that's just two different philosophies.  We balance "quality" and blending in with the game differently.  I want things to blend in with the game, and don't mind sacraficing some quality for that, while you would rather sacrafice blending in with the game for quality.  Is there a way to only use area shadows on certain objects?  For this building, the only thing I want to have blurry shadows is is roof access, and maybe the mechanical floor's columns.

lol, thanks, yeah, when I saw them they didn't look like anything I'd want to use anyway.

St. Louis Dude:

We've already been over this, and for the exact same building too.  When I'm finished with the model, I'll post about it here, and if the entire building is finished, then it would be on the STEX.

Ill Tonkso:

lol, yeah, I'll make sure everything's as perfect as I can get before it gets into the game.  The BAT lighting rig has more yellow in it, which is why it looks off now.  But it's still going to be pretty white.  I'm not really sure about how white though, but I'll find out when I start tweaking it and comparing it to the game.

Here's what it looked like before though:

http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/7284/bspprogresswz5.jpg

Glenni:

He's talking about the lights.  The glass doesn't have any sky on it.  It might get a little more dirty before getting into the game, but in real life, this building is clean, and the new buildings from the game are also clean, so I'll make this building as clean as the clean buildings from the game.  Does that make sense? lol.

Fledgeling:

yeah, they're not being serious, but thanks for the support.  I guess you do a lot of lurking?  Post more often, the more the merrier.

Glenni:

You should have been nicer to Fledgeling though.  It's clear that he misinterpreted the situation, so you didn't need to attack him after you tried to clear him up.

[SimFox 801]

Glenni: that is good principle, I mean blending to.. but as any principle it should be applied consciously with though. Otherwise it becomes fanaticism... When you say blend into.. you should clearly understand blend into what exactly.. Saying game isn't good enough, there are different type of buildings in the game , imitating different materials and ages. Maxis avoided "white" buildings as where is very big problem with old setup, but with new it could be done if tools used wisely. White should remain white textures should be be "adjusted" this ruins the whole concept, instead Lights should be adjusted to represent desired lighting conditions.. I would go for partially overcast day as most natural environment. No white building is actually perfectly white if it is then mistake has been made with the setup and I don't speak of just dirt, but mostly shadows, unless it totally flat (boring) there will be some shadows and shadows are not just like sunny bits only darker. There must be distinctive color temperature shift, plus when done right there will be some variety in the shift.  Shadowed part receive illumination not from yellow sun, but from blue /blue-white sky and from the nearby object, this second type of indirect illumination will add whatever color that the reflecting object is of.

 

Jason:

Well if you are on Max 8 say gooood buy and goood riddance to Radiosity-monstrosity!

You can use Mental ray. Max8 has version 3.4 which is already quite decent and fast.

There is little confusion about global illumination in it though. To do so for exterior scene you don’t need to fiddle with GI roll out, instead use FG – Final Gather. You can play with settings but generally those default will do you fine! I don’t have it anymore but if you post here screenshots of the rollouts I could tick the suggested settings…

You could also find this forum MENTAL RAY - FG tips (works on 3DSMAX, XSI, MAYA)  on www.evermotion.org - very informative. Mind you most people are trying hard to ged ridd of noise, but you can, actually, use this noise creatively to add variety to your materials and break that over squeaky clean look of CGI.

 

Here is what I mean:

there is still good deal of noise in this image but that make it looks very real to me, like a photograph. Plus you could almost touch that coarse surface. This one is rendered with HDRI - which is great - just look at those colors on the spout!! but very taxing. BTW the teapots themselves are neutal middle grey! no texture of anykind had been applied to them. That's what right ligt setup can do to borring grey!
But if you want smooth - you can get smooth:

 

About Glenni/Fledgeling thing… I must side with Glenni, not because I share his idea, but because he expresses his thoughts! Actually I don’t but I share his approach, but as saying goes “ I hate your idea but prepared to fight to give you right to express it” (or something along those lines). That softy-softy and sugar/honey stuff never gets ANYTHING done. We are not 5 years olds here... people should be able to express their ideas without constantly running scare of being accused of being rude, impolite etc… Very little if any at all comes from such sugarcoated messages one “great, great” “best ever” one is just like another and although it may please, it is like real sugar – empty calories – in the end don’t do you any good, just get your ego fat. I would say that to a degree there could be considered even offensive - there is too much copy/paste feeling about them!

I rate criticism as constrictive as long as one expressing it have anything to suggest , naturally better if that not just some abstract concept but something more tangible revealing that the “critic” knows what he is talking about. Still it should be valued

PS teapot pics are directly fropm the  FG forum on evermotion .org

[Sim shady 12]

lol thats the most realistic teapot ive ever seen thats not real!

[jacqulina 162]

great teapot

[Fledgeling 1]

The reason I don’t post here is because I have no experience in BAT, and that is important for useful constructive criticism. I see that was the smart thing, because since I don’t have experience with bats or see something that needs improvement and such, my opinion is not welcome! I replied to glenni because I felt (wrongly) that he was taking a shot at all of jason’s hard work. \

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Ok, I got that working now.  The default setting for Final Gather samples was 1,000, which was to much.  I changed it to 35.

I also raised the minimum samples per pixel to 16.  The screenshot there shows it as 4, and the black box problem was better.  At 16 (not shown) it looks better, but there's still some weird things going on.

So this is where I'm at right now.