nybt-forum-threads Aaron Graham's NYBT Residential Thread

[Francis90b 748]

It is now my turn to post there - to show one part of the work i'm doing for Aaron, more precisely something that could lead lead the Bromley (or 129 east 35th street) one step closer to completion.

The realistic recreation of the Bromley by Aaron led to an 8 mtrs gap on the lot, behind the building - which had to be filled somehow.I offered myself for the task, and Aaron kindly accepted.

One option was to recreate the building that, in real life, lies immediately behind the Bromley on 35th street - a stripped down 20 ft wide brownstone.

If you do some math, you can easily realized that the said brownstone could not, alone, fill the gap.

It would have been possible to scale it up until it reached a widht of 8 mtrs, slightly more than 26 ft - but in this way it would have looked out of proportion with Aaron's work, that's usually done close to RL scale - while I acknowledge that there are a lot of scaling criterias for BATs (the myriad of maxis ones, plus the myriad of BATer's ones) - having more than one on the same lot seemed a bit excessive to me, lol.

Additionally, a scaled up and wider brownstone would have been in sharp contrast with the urban fabric of the neighborhood where the Bromley is located - it's rowhouse stock is mostly made up by very narrow buildings, ranging in widht from 12,5 foot to 20 foot, seldomly venturing into wider widhts.

Therefore, i decided to rule out the existing brownstone as a possible candidate, and to look at other options.

One of them was to create, rather than one wide brownstone, that would have been unrealistic, a couple of tiny, twin brownstones, equally dividing the remaining space between the Bromley and the LOT edge.

I found this to be a possible choice - some existing brownstones in the neighbourhood measure from 12,5 to 14 foot in widht, and the room left by subdividing the "SC4 parcel" gap in two parts was of slightly more than 13 ft.

I then set up into designing the two twinned brownstones, each four floors tall (without counting the basement) as many existing brownstones in the area, and each having two windows per floor on the front facade, as the vast majority of 12 to 14 ft brownstones you might find, around 35th street or elsewhere.

I decided to not recreate a specific building, but to take design and dimensions among brownstones and rowhouses i had surveyed on my own in the past - this said, the amount of "free interpretation" had been almost negligible - no significant amout of "liberty" had been taken on the design, and what you will find there, you're likely to find in extremely similar way when looking at real life.

This could be said for every detail and design choice i took.

This said, it's time to look at a couple of elevations:

Those were sketches i did in Paint - and Paint was more than enough to do a to-scale sketch, in which to study the proportions and the dimensions of my building.

It's now time to take a look at how this would look like next to the Bromley:

One look at it would tell you that the building is too tall.

However, while this assumption might be true if we just look at how we expect things to be, there are many more things to be considered - things that in my opinion might turn this seemingly right assumption into a wrong one.

Here they are:

1)Floor height is not a fixed thing IRL - it can change widely from building to building, and, i can tell from experience that this is quite true as far as rowhouses are concerned - and to a lesser degree, about apartment buildings too.

IRL buildings might have floors lining up one next to each other, or being significantly taller or shorter (this does not mean that you're free to do stop evaluating things and think everything it's possible and valid - on the contrary, it should encourage you to look more and think more, and never fossilize in your thoughts )

2)All the floor heights i've adopted for the brownstone fall among the range of floor heights i've noticed while surveying brownstones for my own scopes - this, coupled with the fact that Aaron did a realistic depiction of the Bromley, leads it and my building to be two buildings BATed to realistic standards, with a widely differing (but justifiable) floor height.

3)By looking at the real, existing situation existing around the Bromley, the 20ft brownstone i mentioned before is more or less as tall as mine, having the same number of floor - therefore, it is reasonable to assume their floor heights is similar.

Therefore, i think i have enough points to call the assumption about my design being "too tall" unfounded.

While Aaron kindly agreed to let me meddle into his BAT, and to texture and nightlight the models i will send him, the models themselves are my own responsibility - all of the questions, objections and criticisms concerning my models are therefore to be adressed directly at me - i'm going to follow the discussion and reply when necessary.

It comes to my attention that i would probably not be able to write such a throrough explaination into the upload's description, and that people might be prone to ignore subtle distintions such as "who's responsible for what" - after all, everything will be uploaded on Aaron's behalf, right? - so perhaps Aaron might be victim of unfair criticism (unfair because uninformed, and directed against the wrong person) - in order to protect him from such a regrettable situation, i'm also going to study a version of my design with shorter floors - that could be slightly more fitting with people's expectations, while at the same time keeping the realism and accuracy standards i think i should follow.

Additionally, i think that anything I bat should be exported as a prop, so that people could remove it and replace with something they see as more fit, should my design not be of their liking.

  Edited October 24, 2012 by Francis90b  

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Jasoncw- Thank you for your support. This thread is not getting customers like it us to.

Thank you for all your work in help me on trying to get the Bromley release. I think that was what I wanted to do anyway, was to make your building a prop. This should not be a unfair project, you can upload you building days before mine and then I can follow days later, to give your building sometime to be on STEX featured.

I hope you make a variation for the brownstones like I may do with the Bromley, So every time you grow/plop it with a buildingplop cheat each placement will be different.

  Edited October 25, 2012 by Aaron Graham  

[Francis90b 748]

I'm afraid you might have missed my point, Aaron - in short, there it is - i'm afraid people won't necessarily see it's floor height as good, and in the upload description i won't have so much room to explain my design and my choices - and since you're the one that's uploading things, you might be held responsible for that, even if you are not.

In order to protect you from this, i'm going to study a design that's exactly the same, just with slightly lower floors, that could fit better with what someone's expectations might be.

  Edited October 25, 2012 by Francis90b  

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

okay do what you have to do, but one thing row houses do have different heights so having all row houses to be the same height will be just lame and not real.

Edit: does anyone know that this thread is running no one is commenting on the brownstones your trying to create for me. Hum, no support right now. It's different a SC4devtoion, there is some support there, you should also post here and see what they may say.

  Edited October 25, 2012 by Aaron Graham  

[Francis90b 748]

It's true that row houses often have different heights, but it's also true that when they sometimes were built in sets, as part of a slingle developement - e.g two twinned 12 ft rowhouses - and when it happened, they sticked to the same height .

This said, if and when i'm going to design a rowhouse pack comprising different types and designs, something that's not going to happen now, be sure that they're going to follow the height design, style or their real life counterpart might dictate

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Okay, do what you have to do, your the professional. So good to have you helping out.

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Hattan House

Here's what the variation could look like. The red model is the color of the real life building, the other three are the same textures used on the Worthington Apartments, all they may need is a hue and or brightness change. What do you think?

I have some store names thanks from the help of mandelsoft, glenni, and suzaku.

Store names:

café Chez Martin

Casper's Comics

Chaplin Hairstyling

Liberty Tax

Reading Books & Office Supplies

Digital-7 Electronics

Kodak

Chef Joe's Burgers

Dirk & Ian Lawyers

Glenwood Travels

Su Yu and Run Lawyers

Soon Fatt Chinese Takeaway

Some more store names from Jack_wilds.

Jim's Hobby Shop

Jim's Barber & Shave

Jim's repair & pawn

Some more store names from jmyers2043.

Paris Fred Chicken

  Edited December 26, 2012 by Aaron Graham  

[Amthaak 1,501]

Congratulations for your exceptional work! you are the batter of the year!

[T Wrecks 10,210]

"Su Yu and Run Lawyers"... "Soon Fatt Chinese Takeaway".

Oh yeah, the building is OK, too.

[gutterclub 2,729]

Hattan House is looking superb, that 'bulge' on one of the awnings makes perfect sense, and it is a lovely green!!!! Go with Chef Joe's..thats my name.

The Bromley is coming along, I will make my opinion..which I hope Francis doesn't mind and I am certainly not critising thehim as the work he does around here is fantastic that even if he wasn't to make anything he'd still be way more valuable than some people that do..

Anyway, I sometimes feel from a personal opinion that you (Mr Francis) spend more time justifying things, getting too indepth for what for me anyway is essentially, just a game and hobby. So whilst I applaud your thought process, struggle for perfection and for things to be how you feel they should be, sometimes I think to myself..just go for it man, just BAT..it's art..an artist would create and let other people judge. I can assure you that you do not need to try and impress any fellow BATers, we know you are capable of great work, and the general public..well everyone is always going to have an opinion and no matter how much thought process, sketching and what numbers are written down people will judge it and i'm sure more than positively.

Anyway, I think the point I am getting at, is that you have shown so much great work but are almost reluctant to let it be judged properly...so bascially just build man, just build

[Francis90b 748]

GC, your feedback is welcome, now and always .

I oblige about building things - if laziness allows me to - you should bear in mind that other than being perfetionistic i'm also quite lazy, and if only i could get myself to be more diligent, some things i'm working on would be long finished, lol.

This said, here it is now:

Now i'm in the middle of modelling the front yard.

Aaron, i'd like to see a preview of the back of the Bromley.

  Edited October 26, 2012 by Francis90b  

[cmdp123789 710]

Wow... the bromley looks nice! the thing that I find odd with the brownstone is the next:

1) even though it is a brownstone... the RL one doesnt look like a brownstone

2) and another thing I saw in google earth is that it doesnt have a lot of details... its more like a plain light colored wall...

[Francis90b 748]

Yep, the RL thing was probably a brownstone, that had been completely stripped down of it's facade and reclad.It's hard to infer from what's left what there was on it's facade before.

Since i decided that it was not convenient it for other reasons - see the notes i wrote about that - and decided to design another building in it's place, i somehow ruled out the idea to recreate it's appearence - i must say, it wasn't even deliberate, and now, with your post, it's the first time i think (i'm fully aware of) this possibility.

  Edited October 26, 2012 by Francis90b  

[cmdp123789 710]

Well, to be honest with you... since the bromley is a replica of the real building... how about just going with the real brownstone, and think about this too.. it would be a lot less of work, and a more real looking to the building. After all is your choice, but if it was up to me... I would go with the real thing

Now, another option, given the fact that you still need to fill 2 meters left.. what you could do is make two brownstones based on the one in RL... instead of adding facades and stuff... you would end up with two simple "walls"...

  Edited October 26, 2012 by cmdp123789  

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

cmdp123789- The building was striped from the facade designs, here's a like to the Bromley and the brown stone, back in the day it did have a cornice and stairs to go to the building.

http://www.columbia.edu/cgi-bin/dlo?obj=ldpd_YR_1089_MH_002_002&size=large

Here's the images, I hope it helps, I just finished the renders.

  Edited October 26, 2012 by Aaron Graham  

[Francis90b 748]

Thanks Aaron.

Cmdp 123789,

I did the two brownstones to avoid the "gap" problem - which would have forced me to either scale up the brownstone, or "interpret" the alley that in SC4 would be left next to it - neither of them being a realistic option.

Now, i might put the facade of the existing ones next to them.This said, i could, i think, recreate any situation in which the brownstones found themselves during their time they shared together with the Bromley - (1940 - today).

This is one perspective drawing of the Bromley, with the brownstone next to it, still having all of it's ornaments.Definition is not clear, but clear enough to tell you what was going there - for example could i see that the design of the trims around the windows, and of the front entrance, is different.

(link)

I might even get myself to make two models, one with flat wall, the other according to how things looked there.

As a passing note, i'd say that the more ornate brownstone designs are somewhat rare in SC4...except some stuff from Marcszar, one nice Greek revival from Don Miguel, and a couple of very old other models - so, if it's possible to add an ornate brownstone to the game while keeping realism to the Bromley, i'd go for it.

  Edited October 26, 2012 by Francis90b  

[cmdp123789 710]

- Francis90b: Well... I gotta say, pictures are worth more than a 1000 words... I like the brownstone on the link... and if you are able to do that, then go fot it... I like it better :|

Now, on the other hand, basically what you're saying is that you are gonna keep the original "2 brownstones" with facades and ornaments? What is going to happen with colors?

-Aaron: well you know Im a big fan of your work, and I have everything you've uploaded so far... the bromley wont be an exception... really nice!

Well, Id say going with ornaments and facades would make the lot much better, and if its possible, then go for it

[Francis90b 748]

I said i might adapt the two brownstones by replacing their ornaments with the ones the original one had.

Colour-wise is a guessing game, as there are no pics other than that B&W drawing (i tried looking for that).

However, i was also thinking, why not having you make a version according to your wishes?

To me, a contextual version, taking into consideration the urban fabric in the neighbourhood and the design of similar buildings, and designed taking care not to put too much "interpretation" into it (the design you see, you could easily see it, nothing had been "invented") was enough.

You seem to have a different opinion on the subject, and your points are points i'd say are worth of consideration.However, while suggesting things to other people i often took action in first person to see my expectations realized - maybe you should do the same .

  Edited October 26, 2012 by Francis90b  

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

I hope everyone say safe in the in the North East US, in Hurricane Sandy.

915 West End Avenue

Here's an update on the building, i have to work on the roof entrance, roof junk, and the facade objects, and facade is going to be some work, I hope I can finish fast.

  Edited October 30, 2012 by Aaron Graham  

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

915 West End Avenue

Here's a little more work on 915 West End Avenue, this building is taking a little time, I hope the details are good, enough for you guys, there are some things I still have to fix. Once I can finish the facade designs, then I can work on the roof and then texturing.

[Amthaak 1,501]

Quote: "I hope the details are good, enough for you guys,....."

:rofl:

[T Wrecks 10,210]

You mean we can let him get away with it for this time? Oookay then.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

You mean those elaborate, painstaking, meticulous, dedicated, nitpicking, attentive, precise, crossing the t's and dotting the i's, scrupulous, fastidious, and well perfect details, that you're hoping those are good enough?

Sure Aaron.

  Edited November 2, 2012 by Sgt Pepper  

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Amthaak- Thank you, I'm trying to be as good as you, Darn, Seraf, and Marcszar when it come to detailing a building.

T Wrecks- Lol, a lot of details on a building always take some time to finish.

Sgt Pepper- Thank you!!!!

Hattan House

Okay, I have made the other versions for the building, now all I have to do is work on the night lights for the other two versions of the building and that will not take long, so I'm almost finished. I hope your ready to mod the building T Wrecks.

Here are the names of the stores for each of the Hattan House versions from the left front side of the building to the right side. Big thank again to Mandelsoft, Glenni, Jmyers2043, Jack_wilds, and Suzaku.

Red Model

Starbucks Caffee, Hanttan Cleaners, and Jam Paper & Envelope

White Model

Cafe Chez Martin, Casper Comics, and Readings Books & Office Supplies

Tan Model

Chef Joe's Burger, Jim's Repair & Pawn, and Paris Fried Chicken

Light Brown Model

Digital-7 Electronics, Glenwood Travels ,and Walgreens

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Both look great!

Also, I have to say the typography of your labels looks good as well.

[Francis90b 748]

I agree, they're looking great.

I'd see some shade of orange or cream, in place of tan...

[Darknono35 3,138]

Too impatient to see your buildings in the STEX! They are really good, congratulations.

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Jasoncw- Thank you buddy!!!

Francis90b- Thank you, I hope you still like it I have exported the building getting it ready for uploading soon!!!

Darknono35- Thank you mate!!!

915 West End Avenue

Here's another update I think it's getting close to being finished, I still need to work on the roof, brick and glass textures and add night lights and ac units in the windows. After that I can do variations.

[gutterclub 2,729]

Wow, looking great..think the roof texture needs a little work thoughas you say, think its needs a little desaturation and a bit of grime but I'm pretty sure you are aware of this

Great work

[mattb325 28,891]

I love how West Avenue is progressing. The little architectural details already make this model 'pop' - this will be another great addition to the many, many buildings in the queue