Sims screaming on a corner of the city tile

[jschlegel48 10]

Can anyone tell me just what the heck is going on with these sims? I wish I knew how to take a video (with sound) to better illustrate their actions, but I will try to describe.

When you first open the city (It's a completely developed city humming along.), and zoom into this one corner; as you zoom in the sims are flowing in from the edges so apparently from two adjacent city tiles (possible 3, it is a four corners region). They are running and screaming and then form this semi-circle. There is plenty of movement, pushing and shoving in this curved line with screams and cries of anguish. Sometimes someone gets pushed off the edge or jumps. It never stops.

Have my sims lost their minds? Is it lemming season? Anyone ever see this behavior? Have I found an easter egg?  I don't think it is affecting the game but it is weird.

John

[jschlegel48 10]

There's nothing there. I've bulldozed it and dezoned all around the blank area.

[CorinaMarie 29,891]

I won't say the dreaded two word name, but I suspect you have a much deeper problem than just bulldozing and zoning will alleviate. Make a backup copy of your region into another folder as the first step. Next check the exact file size of that city (the number that's the exact bytes, not the kb number). Open the city. Do nothing in the city. Save the city. Exit the city. Check the file size. If they are different then there's a tool you'll want to get and have it take a deeper look.

[matias93 7,535]

It's the northwestern corner of a big tile with a lot of development? Have you noticed lastly that some props (trees, lampposts, traffic lights, urban mobiliary, etc) is dissapearing in some other place of the city?

Definitely what you have there is some sort of data corruption on the city tile file, but I wouldn't say for sure is the prop pox, as there is no telling sign. I would recommend you to check the tile file with the SC4 Save to look for 'disabled props' on the Props entry. Take it as an experiment for now.

Also, I'll change the title to something more descriptive, ok?

[rsc204 21,866]

You should open up the advisors panel and data views. Looks like you might have a riot on your hands. Either way, you should first check if there are any Red advisor warnings and act on them. Then check the budget for your Education, Police, Fire, Health etc to make sure your services are adequate. After that take a look at the mayor rating, somewhere in these data panels I'd expect to see a problem causing your sims unhappiness.

[jschlegel48 10]

Uh oh

I suspected the situation two of you suggested.....the dreaded <shudder> prop pox!  I have certain Paeng (peg SAM) props (mainly the SAM rural passenger rail station) that disappear even though I keep replacing them. While I studied a little about the phenomena (wiki and a few other sources) I never ran across the north west corner sim frenzy effect. Weird programming (or rather processor) result to a serious problem.

OK then....has anyone figured out a solution? I'd hate to delete all my pegprod and paeng mods as they are a very large part of certain cities in my region. I like the urban, farming, mountain settings with development spread out rather than so dense. What can a player do? Are there certain parts of the larger MTP or SAM mods one can remove without damaging the whole package? For example; could one remove the, "no side walks," mod file without destroying the whole MTP package?  I've removed a lot of the individual paeng/peg grow-able buildings and never zone anything x by 5 squares. Are there any peg/paeng props considered safe?

Is there anything to quarantine the pox to just one city or is the whole region in danger?

Do I use god mode and nuke the city?

Oh woe is me!!! 

And I thought the title very appropriate. Should have seen my wife's face when her preteen grand uttered W T F (letters only)! Funny thing was, she didn't know the words but knew what it meant.

 

 

[jschlegel48 10]

17 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

I won't say the dreaded two word name, but I suspect you have a much deeper problem than just bulldozing and zoning will alleviate. Make a backup copy of your region into another folder as the first step. Next check the exact file size of that city (the number that's the exact bytes, not the kb number). Open the city. Do nothing in the city. Save the city. Exit the city. Check the file size. If they are different then there's a tool you'll want to get and have it take a deeper look.

YUP! File size grew! What is the tool you mentioned CorinaMarie? Would it be easier to obliterate?

[matias93 7,535]

Wait, were you the one that was putting and quitting stations on the same city tile? This could be file corruption, related or not to the pox, caused by that. So that's good and bad news: your city surely is corrupted (although the behaviour of the file isn't necesarily anomalous), but maybe we already found the cause and you can fix it on your plugins folder without much hassle.

I insist on my recommendation: use the SC4Save to check the city for disabled props. If there are (or more directly, if the program show you on big red letters "prop poxed city", assume it as lost, take as much screenshots as you can, and obliterate it with the god mode (to keep the geography intact). It is good anyway to keep a backup of the poxed city, in case you need some reference.

I suspect your problem wasn't caused by the 'usual suspects' (i.e. maxis normal props modded as timed props, as the umbrella on Peg's CDK3 OWW), but for saving the city with missed props (what you described on your other thread). In that case, you shouldn't need to delete anything from your plugins folder, just to avoid saving with missing props.

[jschlegel48 10]

15 minutes ago, matias93 said:

Wait, were you the one that was putting and quitting stations on the same city tile? This could be file corruption, related or not to the pox, caused by that. So that's good and bad news: your city surely is corrupted (although the behaviour of the file isn't necesarily anomalous), but maybe we already found the cause and you can fix it on your plugins folder without much hassle.

I insist on my recommendation: use the SC4Save to check the city for disabled props. If there are (or more directly, if the program show you on big red letters "prop poxed city", assume it as lost, take as much screenshots as you can, and obliterate it with the god mode (to keep the geography intact). It is good anyway to keep a backup of the poxed city, in case you need some reference.

I suspect your problem wasn't caused by the 'usual suspects' (i.e. maxis normal props modded as timed props, as the umbrella on Peg's CDK3 OWW), but for saving the city with missed props (what you described on your other thread). In that case, you shouldn't need to delete anything from your plugins folder, just to avoid saving with missing props.

Not sure if you refer to a thread where I asked a question if SIMs would/could still use a station in another city tile that didn't appear in the "picture" but did query normally? If so, then yes, that was me. I've since replaced the stations but they disappear every time I save and return to the city, leaving just a gray outline of the building. And, yes, this is the same city.

I'm trying to get a copy of SC4Save with not so much luck. I've managed to get the 4 associated .dll files (safe as far as my virus program reports so far) but I cannot get a working SC4Save file. The one linked on SC4 Devotion (LEX) unfortunately, doesn't install (run) without an immediate error which shuts it down and generates a Microsoft error report, plus it seems to be infected with malware. If you have a link for a clean working copy I sure would appreciate it.

Thanks,

John

[matias93 7,535]

let me check...

@jschlegel48 I downloaded and run the installer successfully, but I'm using an administrator account with the UAC deactivated and no antivirus, so most surely your problem is that your computer defenses are blocking the installation. I can assure you in a 200% that the files labelled as LEX Certified are free of viruses or any malware, so you can safely install it with your antivirus down (disconnect your PC from the internet while doing if you feel more comfortable doing that).

Tell me what happens then. In case you still have trouble, maybe it would be more convenient that you upload your city file and I'll run SC4Save on it.

[jschlegel48 10]

28 minutes ago, matias93 said:

let me check...

@jschlegel48 I downloaded and run the installer successfully, but I'm using an administrator account with the UAC deactivated and no antivirus, so most surely your problem is that your computer defenses are blocking the installation. I can assure you in a 200% that the files labelled as LEX Certified are free of viruses or any malware, so you can safely install it with your antivirus down (disconnect your PC from the internet while doing if you feel more comfortable doing that).

Tell me what happens then. In case you still have trouble, maybe it would be more convenient that you upload your city file and I'll run SC4Save on it.

I, too, run on an administrator account and I disabled my antivirus program. The file installed (correctly, I presume since it runs without error), but when scanned it still shows 3 suspect files...2 identified a a malware generator and 1 ID'd as a Trojan. Trusting the LEX, I am ignoring those reports.

OK, ran the program on my city and< whoopeee> no horrible red letters exclaiming the city is infected with the pox. But, without a good help file, what do I do with the files identified? (There are some 10~15 of them). And how do I explain the disappearance of the train stations? Oh...and when I checked file size as Corina suggested, the file size INCREASED, not decreased as explained by bap.

Again, thanks so much for your help....I not a total dumb A.. when it come to computers but I do need, "books," to understand things and sometimes pointed in the right direction. What's worse....at my advanced years, I'm beginning to forget a lot of things I used to know. Very, very frustrating. When you mention something, I usually face palm myself....duh!

John

[rsc204 21,866]

What is it about an animated prop appearing where you don't expect, being remotely linked to prop pox? See this is the problem I have with people going straight to an unrelated cause and assuming the worst, prop pox is a very specific problem, you have none of the symptoms whatsoever. Yet let's just assume every oddity must be prop pox, without even bothering to consider the facts, that is exactly why I hate prop pox, because it's fuelled by irrational paranoia and is nothing like as common as people seem to think.

Knowing that this animation is a riot, and what triggers can cause that to occur, I made some simple suggestions that would take very little time to check. Perhaps, that's maybe a more logical place to start before abandoning your city and assuming everything is broken? Of course you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

2 hours ago, jschlegel48 said:

I suspected the situation two of you suggested.....the dreaded <shudder> prop pox!  I have certain Paeng (peg SAM) props (mainly the SAM rural passenger rail station) that disappear even though I keep replacing them. While I studied a little about the phenomena (wiki and a few other sources) I never ran across the north west corner sim frenzy effect. Weird programming (or rather processor) result to a serious problem.

Do you have the BDK or Beach Development kit? All other Peg files are known to be free of the problem, not that anyone ever seems to listen. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from being all paranoid and removing all the Peg/Paeng content, in fact not only would it not help you, it would most likely cause you more problems.

2 hours ago, jschlegel48 said:

I have certain Paeng (peg SAM) props (mainly the SAM rural passenger rail station) that disappear even though I keep replacing them.

This is almost certainly a separate issue. When you say the station disappears, is it just the actual building on the lot itself? Even if the lot is invisible, you should be able to query it and see a station is there. If the station itself is totally missing, then I'd say the save file is corrupted, because the data isn't being saved when it should.

11 minutes ago, jschlegel48 said:

OK, ran the program on my city and< whoopeee> no horrible red letters exclaiming the city is infected with the pox. But, without a good help file, what do I do with the files identified? (There are some 10~15 of them). And how do I explain the disappearance of the train stations? Oh...and when I checked file size as Corina suggested, the file size INCREASED, not decreased as explained by bap.

So then you don't have prop pox, it's really that simple.

[jschlegel48 10]

OPPS! I lied. Once I figured out how to use the SC4Save program I received bad news. Had to shut down virus program completely as the program needed to install a driver among other things, but once completed I clicked on the first prop listed and, yup!, it said this city was infected.

Some facts: The animated prop is simply unknown. No advisors report riots....dispatching police, fire, etc. has no affect.

                     While I have the mods asked about, they are not used in this city

                     I have included pictures of the missing props..  Remember, I said I replaced the props but on the next save they are gone again.

                    Other props are beginning to disappear, some are peg (like the pine forest), some are completely unrelated to peg as far as I can tell.

Don't know why but I can't seem to capture a screen shot of the SC4Save page or I'd post it also. I suppose I could list all the hex it reports for this prop.

And, as I said...once I figured out how to use the program, it does show this city to be infected.

John

 

                   

[jschlegel48 10]

pox.bmp

[rsc204 21,866]

13 minutes ago, jschlegel48 said:

  I have included pictures of the missing props..  Remember, I said I replaced the props but on the next save they are gone again.

Not in this thread you haven't, at least not until after my post. This happening with just one station would not be indicative of prop pox, that's very different from saying it's happening all over your city.

The problem outlined in your initial post simply is not prop pox. The reason for those sims being there is that they are a triggered animation, which is not a symptom of Prop Pox. Prop Pox results in props disappearing from cities, it doesn't add them, animations are basically props.

In either case, I can only work on the information I have available to me, which has just changed rather abruptly.

14 minutes ago, jschlegel48 said:

And, as I said...once I figured out how to use the program, it does show this city to be infected.

Well if it says the city is corrupted, it's corrupted. Sadly if that is the case, there is nothing you can do, there is no fix. The only file linked to this problem is the BDK or Beach Development Kit plugin. You may decide you no longer want to use that or fix it, but the rest of the files from Peg are clean, having been widely scrutinised.

The bigger problem you will face here is that the trigger for this type of file corruption can lay dormant in your cities. In essence, the potential is there for any city you've saved whilst the BDK file was installed to suffer the same fate. This also extends to any backups of those files you may have. As such, if this truly is the problem, it's fairly catastrophic and you have my sympathy. As for the best course of action based on that information, my personal view is that it's futile to continue using those cities.

[CorinaMarie 29,891]

4 hours ago, jschlegel48 said:

What is the tool you mentioned CorinaMarie?

That would be the SC4 Save that @matias93 posted.

 

4 hours ago, jschlegel48 said:

Would it be easier to obliterate?

No, unfortunately once a city is poxed there's no method to fix it. That tool is just the definitive method to check. The rioting Sims in the corner was the main clue as I've read about that in other threads. If you have a normal, justified riot they will be around buildings they can burn and cars that they can turn over. Additionally, I'm more convinced that while Peg's timed umbrella might be a possible cause for pox, it's certainly not the only one. Peeps have been poxed having never used the item in question. I believe @rsc204's speculation in the other thread is soundly reasoned. Ergo, adding and removing various plugins throughout the life of a region prolly leaves artifacts that later cause the poxing once the city passes the compression threshold and must be saved in a different format.

[jschlegel48 10]

18 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

That would be the SC4 Save that @matias93 posted.

 

No, unfortunately once a city is poxed there's no method to fix it. That tool is just the definitive method to check. The rioting Sims in the corner was the main clue as I've read about that in other threads. If you have a normal, justified riot they will be around buildings they can burn and cars that they can turn over. Additionally, I'm more convinced that while Peg's timed umbrella might be a possible cause for pox, it's certainly not the only one. Peeps have been poxed having never used the item in question. I believe @rsc204's speculation in the other thread is soundly reasoned. Ergo, adding and removing various plugins throughout the life of a region prolly leaves artifacts that later cause the poxing once the city passes the compression threshold and must be saved in a different format.

So? What you are saying is if the CDK3 OWW mod is installed in my plug in folder (and it is) then any and all regions I happen to open and build will be subject to the pox? Again...I ask, region? not just a city tile? Oy Vey!  It's not a real problem for this region as most city tiles are fairly lightly populated and more rural, farm type developments that is not all that difficult to duplicate; not that I'm sure I would actually try to duplicate it all. it's simply the hours and hours and days and months spent developing <sigh>.  And I'm not sure if the wifey will be happy or upset if I tell her I have to start from scratch. On the other hand, if this drives me away from the game I'm sure she won't complain too much. Seems I shirk a lot of honey do's in her opinion, anyway.

Should I re-down load the regions once I remove the OWW mod since they were once open when the mod was in the folder? Or does nuking each city in the region solve the problem?

This is akin to being diagnosed with a fatal disease... you've know for some time something was wrong and even suspected the cause but when the doctor lays the news on you you're still stunned.

If y'all don't hear from me for a long time, you'll know I've committed virtual suicide and reverted to my other main hobby, HAM (amateur radio).

With that, I thank all of you for your assistance and sage advice and say --... ...-- (73 or best regards...a typical HAM see ya later).

John

[mattb325 28,891]

I'm sorry to read that your city is poxed. There isn't a great deal that can be done, as rsc204 suggests, remove the BDK / beach stuff  (the rest of Pegs stuff is fine) and start a new region afresh as all your cities that have been saved with these files are potentially a sleeper issue.

As for the sims, I'm not sure about their link - if any - to poxed cities.

My understanding is that certain reward buildings (both Maxis and custom) have various triggers and spawning effects, and that sometimes these can generate odd behaviours.

The occupant groups I'm thinking of are...... 

1) Pedestrian Automata Groups:

• 0x410B - Rioting Standing Sim
• 0x410C- Rioting Walking Sim

AND/OR

2) Automata Spawners - usually linked to, and generated around, certain types of buildings

0x1900	VIP	Limo
0x1901	Tourist
0x1902	Country Club	Rich Cars
0x1903	Taxi Maker	Taxi
0x1904	Ambulance Maker	Ambulance
0x1905	DMV	Sims
0x1906	Stadium	Sims
0x1907	Worship	Sims, Child, Civilian Cars
0x1908	Night Club	Reward Sim, Civilian Cars
0x1909	Opera House	Sims, Rich Cars, Limo
0x1910	TV Station	TV Reporter
0x1911	TV Magnet	TV Reporter, TV Peds
0x1912	Farmland	Farm Vehicles
0x1913	Biz Lawyer Attack	Business Person
0x1914	Army Base	Army Tank, Army Truck
0x1915	Missile Range	Army Truck
0x1916	Army Tank
0x1917	Ape Escape	Chimp, TV Reporter
0x1918	Llamas	Llama, Sims
0x1919	Dog Magnet	Dog
0x1920	YIMBY	Reward Sims, TV Reporter, TV Peds
0x1921	Convention Crowd	Fire Fighter, Policeman, Construction, Business, Education, Medical, Protestor
0x1922	Kid Crowd	Panicing Child Crowd
0x1923	Sim Crowd Day Small	Sims, Child
0x1924	Sim Crowd Day Large
0x1925	State Fair	Fair Crowd
0x1926	Bus Stop	Sims, Bus
0x1927	Sim Crowd Stand	Sims
0x1928	Strikers (NIMBY)	Protestor, TV Reporter, Dog
0x1929	Crowd Biz	Business Person
0x1930	Crowd White Coat	Medical Worker
0x1931	Army Ped	Army Sims
0x1932	Army Jumping Jacks	Army Drill
0x1933	Zombie Building
0x1934	Mower Building	Mower Dude
0x1935	Landmark Ogle	Sims
0x1936	Burner Dude Maker
0x1937	Crowd Stand Return
0x1938	Mayor House	Mayor Limo
0x1939	Icecream Spawner	Icecream Truck, Get-away Van, Metal Whale, UFO, Fighter Plane
0x1940	Casino
0x1941	Marina	Boats
0x1942	Police Car Maker	Police Cars

 

So, it could well be anything from 0x1922 thru 0x1928. I guess if the cities had churches, casino etc, etc, etc, this could be a possible cause for the sim effects.

 

[twalsh102 1,601]

A little summary here:

If the SC4SaveGame Explorer says that your city is Poxed (apologies to @rsc204, I know how much you dislike the name), there is nothing to be done.  A once poxed city cannot be un-poxed (OK, I'm creating words now).

Although @CorinaMarie is correct that there is probably more than one cause of the Pox, the only props by Pegasus that have been positively identified as causing the pox are contained in PEG-OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.dat.  All other PEG creations have been extensively tested, and none have been found to cause the same phenomena.  No other files by other creators (other than BSC MEGA Props Misc Vol02 by barbyw; this file was fixed back in 2009; of course if you have a copy of this file dated prior to Feb 2009...   ) have ever been positively identified as causing the Prop Pox.

There is no correlation between the creator of props that are disappearing and the creator of the props that are the (likely) cause of the problem.  Any and all props will be affected if you have Prop Pox

If you have (or had) the PEG BDK Resource Kit (in its original form) in your Plugins folder, for any city, for any length of time, and saved that city, the "seed" has been planted.  This is not the same thing as saying that you will definitely experience Prop Pox.  The phenomena only manifests itself under a very specific set of circumstances.  So for any given city that you are actively playing, where the "seed" has been planted, you might start seeing disappearing props next week, or maybe not until next year, or maybe never.  Please read (or re-read) the first few posts on the topic over at SC4D to understand the circumstances under which you might experience disappearing props (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=7066.0  ).

It doesn't matter that you never specifically used the props from that kit.  The root of the problem is that the problem props are modded Maxis props, that overwrite the original Maxis props.  The overwritten props are very common and are used on many different Maxis and other custom lots.

[matias93 7,535]

Up to what I've seen on this kind of case, there appears to be a pattern on which automatas get send to the northwestern corner of the city, specifically the coordinates x=0 y=0 z=0, they crash to each other there, and the sims screaming are spawning from the traffic crashes

[RobertLM78 1,598]

It seems this was never fully resolved.   Though, I'm glad I'd stumbled on this a few weeks ago, as I just experience this myself, in the NW corner of a medium undeveloped city.  I let the simulation run for a few months game time and they disappeared and have not (yet) returned.   Additionally, to further describe my experience, it was an empty tile, with only trees.  A city (ie named) had been established already, but there were no neighbour connections. It was only while connecting the rail from another tile to the north that I saw the crowd.  That's when I let it run and they disappeared - I saved, exited and returned and ran the simulation again for a few months without any crowds.

[Bdub01 201]

I’ve never heard of this before. What is “prop pox”?

[CorinaMarie 29,891]

29 minutes ago, Bdub01 said:

I’ve never heard of this before. What is “prop pox”?

In a nutshell it's when something goes goofy in the save file and every time you save and load the city more and more props go missing. So like at first it might be a few trees on some lots. Then the animated Sims. Then the benches. Then the ... well, you get the idea.

While one possible cause has been theoretically traced to using altered timed props in some of the earliest modding it's also quite likely that installing and removing plugins during the life of a city could also be a possible cause.

[Bdub01 201]

Ah ok thx for the heads up. 

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

3 hours ago, Bdub01 said:

What is “prop pox”?

This site's internal search function is lame, so use Google or your own favorite external search engine to find "SimCity 4" + "prop pox". You'll be reading for days, both here and at SC4 Devotion.

[rsc204 21,866]

7 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

You'll be reading for days, both here and at SC4 Devotion.

You don't have too, at it's core the problem is very simple:

12 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Either don't install the BDK if you don't trust the file, literally it's one dependency that only 2 of the Pegasus lots rely upon.

or

Fix the files by modifying them in Reader, full detailed instructions here.

Note that same link is the main Prop Pox thread on SC4D detailing the problem.